Photographing Children - Joe Duffy Show

pullandbang

Anyone catch the hullabaloo on Joe Duffy at lunchtime? Apparently guy in playground in Stepehns Green with his daughter spots a tog outside the railings with his camera pushed through said railings, snapping away at the kids.
He approaches the tog and confronts him only to be told by the tog to mind his own business, that he's an Irish citizen and can photograph who he likes as it's a public area. Refuses to show the images to the dad or to delete them. Dad approaches park ranger only to be told that there is nothing he can do about it and that the Gardai will tell him the same.

Andy-Pandy

He should have take a photo of the photographer and put it up in a public forum. There is nothing illegal about it, but it's very odd behavior.

Kenny Logins

I didn't hear it, but it will be up here tomorrow -

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/liveline/#Podcasts

EyeBlinks

Andy-Pandy wrote: »

He should have take a photo of the photographer and put it up in a public forum. There is nothing illegal about it, but it's very odd behavior.

Isn't it odd to think taking photos of kids in public is odd

Sulla Felix

Dey tuk (pictures of) our kids!

I fail to see the problem.

trooney

pullandbang wrote: »

...Dad approaches park ranger only to be told that there is nothing he can do about it and that the Gardai will tell him the same.

Its good to see that somebody was aware of the legal situation, instead of the standard knee-jerk reaction. Plus, as well as that - fúck joe duffy. Talentless 'everyman' hack.

pullandbang

Just as well yer man with the kid wasn't in the Bots yesterday! He would have have a field day with me in the middle of the kids

magicbastarder

surely a paedo would have better luck googling pics of kids online, rather than exposing themselves to public ridicule like this?

anyway, it was extremely bad form on the part of the photographer, by refusing to move along. if you're taking pictures of someone in public, and they (or their guardian) ask you to stop, you stop.

username123

Whats a tog and whats the Bots?

magicbastarder

tog is short for photographer, bots is probably short for the botanic gardens.

tricky D

The Gardaí can take his name and check him out later for previous, but that's about it.

Andy-Pandy

EyeBlinks wrote: »

Isn't it odd to think taking photos of kids in public is odd

Perhaps, what i think is odd is the fact that he got defensive and refused to show the pictures. I've photographer friends that will take pics of kids, nothing odd about it as they would ask permission off the parents and show them the photo's and offer a copy of the photo's to them. So taking the pic's in itself is not odd, but not being willing to show the photo's to people who are questioning his motive's for taking them is.

Kenny Logins

Depends on how he was asked I suppose; if he was confronted and urged to hand over the camera he'd understandably refuse.

EyeBlinks

Some cracking photos of kids in public as part of Taking Stock at National Photographic Archive (NPA) in Temple Bar on at the moment.

Hugh_C

Sulla Felix wrote: »

Dey tuk (pictures of) our kids!

huh?

thebaz

pullandbang wrote: »

Refuses to show the images to the dad or to delete them.

think it is just BASIC manners to show subject , children (or anyone for that matter) what you have snapped -

pullandbang

thebaz wrote: »

think it is just BASIC manners to show subject , children (or anyone for that matter) what you have snapped -

I agree 100%. He certainly didn't do himself any favours but then the guy that approached him may have been an aggressive twat and got his back up. I only heard one side of the story on Joe Duffy.

Paulw

thebaz wrote: »

think it is just BASIC manners to show subject , children (or anyone for that matter) what you have snapped -

If someone asks politely, then no problem showing them the picts. But, if someone comes at me agressively and demands to see the images, I will not.

Manners works both ways.

Tallon

That's my attitude too!

Took a photo of a Garda car once, and he jump out and called me all sorts, threatened to arrest me if I didn't delete it!

I was young and intimidated so deleted it!

Second time it happened things went a bit different, same attitude from a Gaurd, but I was equally as ignorant to him and walked off

Effects

Hugh_C wrote: »

huh?

blu3r0ri0n

Kenny Logins wrote: »

I didn't hear it, but it will be up here tomorrow -

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/liveline/#Podcasts

Its up there now, just listening to it.

Tallon

blu3r0ri0n wrote: »

Its up there now, just listening to it.

Listening now... forgot how shíte this show is and how stupid the callers are...

blu3r0ri0n

Tallon wrote: »

Listening now... forgot how shíte this show is and how stupid the callers are...

Soon as I heard his voice I remmebered why I stopped listening!

It doesnt sound like the photographer was trying to hide himself as he was not allowed to go in to the playground without accomponying a child, however, he didnt help himself by not showign the photos to the father.

Just sounds like a misunderstanding that got a little heated. To be honest as a father myself I cant blame the father for approaching the photographer, I would have done the same.

Were only getting one side of the story here so its dificult to make a decision on it, he could have been aggresive to the photographer which in turn got the same level of response.

sineadw

Just on a legal point, parks aren't public land. They belong to the OPW and you DON'T have the right to photograph whomever you wish, although you still can't be told to show or delete shots. There are by laws in Cork and Kerry expressely forbidding cameras in playgrounds.

Tallon

I would bet my camera that the Dad didn't 'walk over calmly' to discuss it.. I'd bet he went over all guns blazing and the Tog was just not arsed listening to him!

You can even here that he's worked up on the show

blu3r0ri0n

Tallon wrote: »

I would bet my camera that the Dad didn't 'walk over calmly' to discuss it.. I'd bet he went over all guns blazing and the Tog was just not arsed listening to him!

You can even here that he's worked up on the show

That was exactly my thinking, also he had time to calm down before calling it in as well and he still sounded angry!

jpb1974

I'd be curious to know what % of parents who contribute on this forum would be content to allow a total stranger to photograph their kids through the fence outside a playground.

Having given it some consideration... I really don't think I'd be comfortable with it.

Personally I think the photographer was just asking for trouble. It's not something I'd do myself, because I'd just have more common sense.

dirtyghettokid

same as... i don't have children myself, but if i did, i probably wouldn't be too happy. however, if a photographer asked, i'd probably not be bothered.
people are too freaked these days over children and pictures so it's just safer to ask, or don't bother. keep your stealthy street pics to those over 18 lol

Daveysil15

Don't you need permission or a model release form before taking photos of anyone??? I think you need a model release form before uploading photos of someone to the internet.

Kenny Logins

Daveysil15 wrote: »

Don't you need permission or a model release form before taking photos of anyone??? I think you need a model release form before uploading photos of someone to the internet.

No..

pixbyjohn

sineadw wrote: »

Just on a legal point, parks aren't public land. They belong to the OPW and you DON'T have the right to photograph whomever you wish, although you still can't be told to show or delete shots. There are by laws in Cork and Kerry expressely forbidding cameras in playgrounds.

Obviously the Park Ranger does not know this then. Is there anywhere that the laws regarding this can be viewed or is it too complicated and there would have to be a court case to decide each and every individual scenario.

thebaz

dirtyghettokid wrote: »

same as... i don't have children myself, but if i did, i probably wouldn't be too happy. however, if a photographer asked, i'd probably not be bothered.
people are too freaked these days over children and pictures so it's just safer to ask, or don't bother. keep your stealthy street pics to those over 18 lol

agree, I have children myself, but ther is a near hysteria about photographing children today , a McCarthyism - I am sure the more heinous child photgraphy is done in private , and not in public.

Children , need protection , but like the old , the rich , the poor are also part of our life ...

the guy in the park should have deleted the images, when the guardian was so unhappy, in my mind

Paulw

sineadw wrote: »

Just on a legal point, parks aren't public land. They belong to the OPW and you DON'T have the right to photograph whomever you wish, although you still can't be told to show or delete shots.

But there are no laws nor by-laws for OPW parks that forbid photography, so how can you say that the photographer doesn't have a right to take photos? :eek: The OPW only require a permit to be obtained for a commercial shoot.

http://www.heritageireland.ie/en/Dublin/StStephensGreen/

Photography / Video allowed: Yes, but permit required for commercial purposes.

Only a court can force you to show/delete images. If you are breaking the law (in this case the photographer wasn't), then the images would be required as evidence in a court of law. If you are not breaking the law, then no one has the right to ask/demaned you delete the images.

pixbyjohn wrote: »

Obviously the Park Ranger does not know this then.

The park ranger was totally correct in what he did/said. The photographer was within his rights to take photos and had broken no law.

melekalikimaka

yeah i'd be of the opinion to give them the ol finger if there was any sort of attitude, if i was asked politely what were my intentions and if it was communicated in a civil manner that as a parent and concerned about jimmy savilles and the likes lurking on the interwebs finding pics of my kiddie, and would I mind if i did not take photos and for peace of mind maybe delete any taken, i'd smile and do it happily.

DaireQuinlan

Paulw wrote: »

But there are no laws nor by-laws for OPW parks that forbid photography, so how can you say that the photographer doesn't have a right to take photos? :eek: The OPW only require a permit to be obtained for a commercial shoot.

http://www.heritageireland.ie/en/Dublin/StStephensGreen/

Photography / Video allowed: Yes, but permit required for commercial purposes.

Only a court can force you to show/delete images. If you are breaking the law (in this case the photographer wasn't), then the images would be required as evidence in a court of law. If you are not breaking the law, then no one has the right to ask/demaned you delete the images.



The park ranger was totally correct in what he did/said. The photographer was within his rights to take photos and had broken no law.

No, sinead is quite right. You -don't- have the 'right' to take photographs in (say) stephens green as you do in a public place. The warden can at any point ask you to stop taking photographs, and have you removed from the park if you refuse. It's a permission granted to you by the owners of the property.

Paulw

DaireQuinlan wrote: »

No, sinead is quite right. You -don't- have the 'right' to take photographs in (say) stephens green as you do in a public place. The warden can at any point ask you to stop taking photographs, and have you removed from the park if you refuse. It's a permission granted to you by the owners of the property.

But, the OPW site states that photography is permitted, hence granting you permission, with the clause that commercial photography requires a permit. Also, the park warden did not ask the photographer to stop, and clarified that the photographer was within his right to take photos.

Yes, I agree that a park warden has the power to ask you to stop and/or remove you from the park, but in this situation, the warden deemed that nothing wrong was done.

thefizz

What disturbs me most about all this is that Denis was actuay listening to the Joe Duffy show

jpb1974

Hanging around outside playgrounds, pointing a lens through a fence, taking photos of kids... ask yourself "would you do it?".

Whether it was legal or not I think the photographer was stupid... feck all common sense and just asking for trouble.

mdebets

tricky D wrote: »

The Gardaí can take his name and check him out later for previous, but that's about it.

Under what law?

Tallon

jpb1974 wrote: »

Hanging around outside playgrounds, pointing a lens through a fence, taking photos of kids... ask yourself "would you do it?".

Whether it was legal or not I think the photographer was stupid... feck all common sense and just asking for trouble.

Yes I would! If I thought it would help my shot

You can't blanket ban something like that. If there was no fence, and the chap was wearing a suit, and an RTE Jacket would anyone care? No!

jpb1974

You can't blanket ban something like that.

Not sure anyone said you could.

If there was no fence, and the chap was wearing a suit, and an RTE Jacket would anyone care?

If my aunty had balls she'd be my uncle. That's be a totally different set of circumstances. Not the situation that's being discussed.

would anyone care? No!

That's a pretty sweeping assumption.

magicbastarder

Tallon wrote: »

You can't blanket ban something like that. If there was no fence, and the chap was wearing a suit, and an RTE Jacket would anyone care? No!

actually, some people would care more. if someone was taking pics for RTE, it would increase the likelihood that the shots would end up being used on TV.

Tallon

jpb1974 wrote: »

If my aunty had balls she'd be my uncle. That's be a totally different set of circumstances. Not the situation that's being discussed.

You don't know that!

You're hearing a story, on Joe Duffy, from an irate father, who thinks a peado took a photo of his kid! He's obviously going to exaggerate!

I seriously doubt half of what he was moaning about happened, and as I said previously, I doubt he went over and spoke politely

OldGoat

jpb1974 wrote: »

Hanging around outside playgrounds, pointing a lens through a fence, taking photos of kids... ask yourself "would you do it?".

Whether it was legal or not I think the photographer was stupid... feck all common sense and just asking for trouble.

I spent about an hour this weekend shooting in a crowded playground - both sides of the boundry (there is no fence).
No one passed any comment or even gave me a curious look (that I noticed). I wandered through the playground in the company of another man taking shots of anything that caught my imagination.

jpb1974

You're hearing a story, on Joe Duffy, from an irate father, who thinks a peado took a photo of his kid! He's obviously going to exaggerate! I seriously doubt half of what he was moaning about happened, and as I said previously, I doubt he went over and spoke politely

I never heard him refer to the photographer as a peado.

I don't know whether he was exaggerating or not.

I don't know whether what he was 'moaning' about , as you put it, happened or not.

I don't know if he spoke politely or not.

I am assuming that something close to what was reported happened, and assuming it is true then I think it was stupid.

If it didn't happen and the story is totally and utterly fabricated my view still stands - As a father, I wouldn't want my child being photo'd by a total and utter stranger outside a playground without my consent. There's no arguement there. It's my opinion, it's my view, that's it.

If it isn't against the law and there was nothing I could do about it, I'd take my child and leave.

Sometimes I bring my child to the playground and there are teenagers there smoking, shouting and cursing. I doubt they are breaking the law (maybe the smoking, maybe the cursing, I really don't know), but it doesn't change the fact that I don't like the behaviour, I'd like to tell them to either stop or feck off but I don't. I just leave.

The point being - I think there is behaviour that may be viewed by some as in-appropriate, can cause trouble, but may be total legal. If photographers are happy to potentially court controvery with parents then I think that is stupid.

I don't have problems with people taking pictures of childeren, but I think it should be done in a manner that is somewhat respectful and transparent to parents in order to avoid problems. Personally I'm not going to get on my high horse if my kid ends up in someone's Spire photo by chance, but I don't want some guy floating around outside a playground taking direct pictures of him without my consent.

challengemaster

dirtyghettokid wrote: »

same as... i don't have children myself, but if i did, i probably wouldn't be too happy. however, if a photographer asked, i'd probably not be bothered.

This is something I find rather funny about the whole thing. Asking to take photos in the first place doesn't ensure you're not a paedo, it just means you could be a polite one.

It may seem like that's not helping the case, but personally I think that shows how ridiculous the whole thought process about this is.

dirtyghettokid

well if you are asking to take a photo of a child, you obviously have a reason for it, in which you would discuss with the parent.
otherwise, taking random photos of children is a weird thing to do, unless you know them, that is.

smash

EyeBlinks wrote: »

Isn't it odd to think taking photos of kids in public is odd

Sad this is that if it was a woman taking the photos there'd probably be no questions asked!

Neeson

Can someone put up a direct link to the podcast. I can't get the page up with it on it. Thanks.

They had a follow up on it on the show yesterday as well.

pullandbang

Neeson wrote: »

Can someone put up a direct link to the podcast. I can't get the page up with it on it. Thanks.

They had a follow up on it on the show yesterday as well.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81368877&postcount=3

Neeson

pullandbang wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81368877&postcount=3

That brings up links to the latest show which is from the 23rd. I want to listen to the fella ringing in, which was on the 22nd.

When i click this nothing happens? www.rte.ie/radio1/podcast/podcast_liveline.xml

Does it work for anyone else?