Tax Donkey - Do you qualify

jjmcclure

In the run up to the budget a lot if kites are being flown about possible tax measures. A new one which is being pushed for by Labour back benchers (please f off to Cuba) is a proposal for a 48% tax rate on those earning over €100k. So once again a small subset of workers is being asked to subsidise the majority, many of whom pay little or no tax at all. I call this group the Irish Tax Donkey as they are expected to carry most of the burden.
Lets now examine what the average Tax Donkey gets for the huge amount of tax they pay:
Example- Married, two kids, PAYE worker on over €100k

Child benefit = 280 per month
Health = 0 (pays for private health)
School = School for two kids but also contributes cash as state funding insufficient to run school
Infrastructure= Roads telecoms etc = Zero pays huge road tax, utility bills etc with service charges
Emergency services, Garda, Fire etc. = Yes these services are there
State Pension = Who knows by the time I retire, I pay into a private pension so possibly Zero from the state in 20 years
That’s about it!!!
Can’t think of any other benefit from paying all tax,USC and PRSI.
Any other tax donkeys out there???

Dannyboy83

jjmcclure wrote: »

In the run up to the budget a lot if kites are being flown about possible tax measures. A new one which is being pushed for by Labour back benchers (please f off to Cuba) is a proposal for a 48% tax rate on those earning over €100k. So once again a small subset of workers is being asked to subsidise the majority, many of whom pay little or no tax at all. I call this group the Irish Tax Donkey as they are expected to carry most of the burden.
Lets now examine what the average Tax Donkey gets for the huge amount of tax they pay:
Example- Married, two kids, PAYE worker on over €100k

Child benefit = 280 per month
Health = 0 (pays for private health)
School = School for two kids but also contributes cash as state funding insufficient to run school
Infrastructure= Roads telecoms etc = Zero pays huge road tax, utility bills etc with service charges
Emergency services, Garda, Fire etc. = Yes these services are there
State Pension = Who knows by the time I retire, I pay into a private pension so possibly Zero from the state in 20 years
That’s about it!!!
Can’t think of any other benefit from paying all tax,USC and PRSI.
Any other tax donkeys out there???

TD Brian Hayes said yesterday on Newstalk that the real tax rate on any income in excess of 36k is 52%

creedp

jjmcclure wrote: »

In the run up to the budget a lot if kites are being flown about possible tax measures. A new one which is being pushed for by Labour back benchers (please f off to Cuba) is a proposal for a 48% tax rate on those earning over €100k. So once again a small subset of workers is being asked to subsidise the majority, many of whom pay little or no tax at all. I call this group the Irish Tax Donkey as they are expected to carry most of the burden.
Lets now examine what the average Tax Donkey gets for the huge amount of tax they pay:
Example- Married, two kids, PAYE worker on over €100k

Child benefit = 280 per month
Health = 0 (pays for private health)
School = School for two kids but also contributes cash as state funding insufficient to run school
Infrastructure= Roads telecoms etc = Zero pays huge road tax, utility bills etc with service charges
Emergency services, Garda, Fire etc. = Yes these services are there
State Pension = Who knows by the time I retire, I pay into a private pension so possibly Zero from the state in 20 years
That’s about it!!!
Can’t think of any other benefit from paying all tax,USC and PRSI.
Any other tax donkeys out there???

Ah but jaysus, surely you're too wealth to be getting the child benefit ... didn't you knnow its morally wrong in this country for any wage earner to be accepting any benefit from the State! Hand it back forthwith I say!!

jjmcclure

creedp wrote: »

Ah but jaysus, surely you're too wealth to be getting the child benefit ... didn't you knnow its morally wrong in this country for any wage earner to be accepting any benefit from the State! Hand it back forthwith I say!!

They should just put us in stocks on college green so "de workers" and the poor lads on the dole can throw rotten fruit.:rolleyes:

Sleepy

That's based on the 42% rate + PRSI + Social Charge.

Using a sample of a single person earning 120,000 a year, it'd be an extra €1,400 a year for them in tax.

Madd Finn

Biggest Tax Donkeys, in terms of the percentage of their income goes in tax, would be somebody matching the following description.

Single
Does not benefit from married person's tax credit or children's allowance.

Lives in private rented accommodation
Not wealthy enough to own own gaff and benefit from mortgage relief; not poor enough, or unfortunate enough (drug dependent, single parent, asylum seeker) or old enough (long waiting list) for council housing.

Smokes cigarettes, enjoys the occasional pint and drives a car. Most of the cost of these items in Ireland, assuming they are legitimately bought, is tax.

No private pension plan.
Big tax relief on these (as there should be). Typically not owned by the very young or the lower paid.

Leona Helmsley was right. Only little people get hurt by taxes. The wealthier you are, the more you can offset, perfectly legitimately, against other expenses.

Sleepy

Children's Allowance aside, that's me. Will be getting married in February though which'll help.

Of course, you left out one very important determinant of the percentage of income that goes on tax: are they over the threshold for the higher rate.

jjmcclure

Madd Finn wrote: »

Biggest Tax Donkeys, in terms of the percentage of their income goes in tax, would be somebody matching the following description.

Single
Does not benefit from married person's tax credit or children's allowance.

Lives in private rented accommodation
Not wealthy enough to own own gaff and benefit from mortgage relief; not poor enough, or unfortunate enough (drug dependent, single parent, asylum seeker) or old enough (long waiting list) for council housing.

Smokes cigarettes, enjoys the occasional pint and drives a car. Most of the cost of these items in Ireland, assuming they are legitimately bought, is tax.

No private pension plan.
Big tax relief on these (as there should be). Typically not owned by the very young or the lower paid.

Leona Helmsley was right. Only little people get hurt by taxes. The wealthier you are, the more you can offset, perfectly legitimately, against other expenses.

What expenses can a PAYE worker offset against tax? Please tell me. Remember the vast majority of workers in Ireland pay little or no tax.

Godge

Madd Finn wrote: »

Biggest Tax Donkeys, in terms of the percentage of their income goes in tax, would be somebody matching the following description.

Single
Does not benefit from married person's tax credit or children's allowance.

Lives in private rented accommodation
Not wealthy enough to own own gaff and benefit from mortgage relief; not poor enough, or unfortunate enough (drug dependent, single parent, asylum seeker) or old enough (long waiting list) for council housing.

Smokes cigarettes, enjoys the occasional pint and drives a car. Most of the cost of these items in Ireland, assuming they are legitimately bought, is tax.

No private pension plan.
Big tax relief on these (as there should be). Typically not owned by the very young or the lower paid.

Leona Helmsley was right. Only little people get hurt by taxes. The wealthier you are, the more you can offset, perfectly legitimately, against other expenses.

Wrong, lower paid pay very little tax as a percentage of their income. This has been covered many times on these threads but it is the group with household income from about €80,000 - €170,000 who pay the most tax in percentage terms. Above that you have spare cash to invest in tax-relief schemes. Below that, you just don't pay that much tax compared to the rest of Europe.

krd

jjmcclure wrote: »

They should just put us in stocks on college green so "de workers" and the poor lads on the dole can throw rotten fruit.:rolleyes:

You have some chip on your shoulder.


Making these tax arguments is largely meaningless. When you purchase and goods or services, as well as paying VAT, the other tax costs of the supplier are factored into the price (though it's not given as a neat little percentage - it's there). Tax isn't a fixed portion of something that's static. All money is flowing, it flows into the government and out of the government. And it flows into peoples' pockets, and then it flows back to government. If too mucj flows out of the country, the government needs to offset the outflow with taxation - otherwise all the money would vanish on 4x4s, flat caps, oil skins and tweed jackets.

Now, I don't know if the tax bellyachers are aware of this and are just trying pull a fast one - trying to get more out than they put in. But that's just the way it works.

I know a guy who owns a block of flats down the country (run down nowhere town, with little employment). He was constantly btching and moaning about the tax he had to pay. All the single mothers he had to support. The guy was either stupid or evil. All the tenants in his block of flats were single mothers. Rent being paid by the health board. He was the welfare moma. The state is buying him a block of flats. If he ever sells it, he'll bellyache about the tax he has pay.

Rent allowance subsidizes the property sector. If it was removed rents would collapse. Remove the dole completely, people would just squat (after the collapse in rents there would be plenty of nice places to squat), beg, and steal turnips and cabbages from farmers fields. Remove the minimum wage, and allow employers to forces wages down, there would be a complete collapse in consumption.

Tax keeps the economy flowing. A "fair" level of tax is neither here nor there. And Life is not fair.

krd

Godge wrote: »

Wrong, lower paid pay very little tax as a percentage of their income. This has been covered many times on these threads but it is the group with household income from about €80,000 - €170,000 who pay the most tax in percentage terms.

Really......I think there's some smoke and mirrors here.

Above that you have spare cash to invest in tax-relief schemes.

The tax-relief "schemes". Boxy little "luxury" apartments to rent to single mothers on rent allowance.

Spare cash my arse. Money from the bank to "invest" because they're from a higher social class, who deserve free money, and free houses. Because they're worth it.

"We're providing a service"

"investors" my arse.

Idbatterim

firstly im not a tax donkey, secondly isnt the cut off now a meagre 32,000? I totally disagree with another higher rate of tax over 100k, these people are already the ones contributing a fortune and getting virtually nothing in return! There are billions that can be saved or cut elsewhere, do that first... I see the poor pensioners, will be exempted from any cuts again, and just read the below, makes you sick!

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/troika-agrees-propertytax-reprieve-for-poor-and-elderly-3263872.html

what I am for, is a system where if you become unemployed or when you reach reritment age, what you paid in is reflected in what you get back out of the system, like they have in that backwards country called Germany... If you choose to be a waster you literally will pay the price (and god knows there are enough of them in this country)!

jjmcclure

Idbatterim wrote: »

firstly im not a tax donkey, secondly isnt the cut off now a meagre 32,000? I totally disagree with another higher rate of tax over 100k, these people are already the ones contributing a fortune and getting virtually nothing in return! There are billions that can be saved or cut elsewhere, do that first... I see the poor pensioners, will be exempted from any cuts again, and just read the below, makes you sick!

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/troika-agrees-propertytax-reprieve-for-poor-and-elderly-3263872.html

what I am for, is a system where if you become unemployed or when you reach reritment age, what you paid in is reflected in what you get back out of the system, like they have in that backwards country called Germany... If you choose to be a waster you literally will pay the price (and god knows there are enough of them in this country)!

+1 Well said that Man/Woman

krd

Idbatterim wrote: »

I totally disagree with another higher rate of tax over 100k, these people are already the ones contributing a fortune and getting virtually nothing in return!

For the love of God!!!......They get nothing in return?

If they're an employer or senior manager, they get donkeys who can read and write. They get prisons to hold bandits who would be otherwise out cutting their throats. They get police to keep their streets safe. They get roads to drive their cars on. Safe drinking water. They get the necessary services needed for a modern economy and society to function.

Even if they're not public servants, they probably earn a big chunk of their living from government spending.

Those people on 100k and over, wouldn't have that 100k if the taxes weren't paid.

The wealthiest people in America, live in the highest tax states. Because they benefit greatly from the public services provided in those states. The low tax states are kips.


If the economy is unbalanced, if making them pay more tax is what it takes to fix things, that's just end of it. Letting the economy collapse will eventually bite the wealthy as hard in the ass as the poor.

what I am for, is a system where if you become unemployed or when you reach reritment age, what you paid in is reflected in what you get back out of the system, like they have in that backwards country called Germany...

Yeah, well in Germany they didn't let the bollockies go mad on building ghost estates and zombie hotels.

The German welfare system by the way, has completely changed. Unemployment benefit used to be linked to income - it could be as much as 80% of your previous wage. So people did take the piss.

If you choose to be a waster you literally will pay the price (and god knows there are enough of them in this country)!

I agree. Tons of wasters in this country. Big bollocky fat arsed wasters. Especially those bollockies who "speculated" with free money from the banks on property.



By the way, if you don't know who the fine young gentleman in the picture is, it's the one and only Barry Cowen.

During the boom time, Barry was a captain of private enterprise....He was an auctioneer. But alas, through no fault of his own, the auctioneering business turned sour. But just as luck would have it, his brother Brian was vacating his Dail seat (had enough of milking the cattle), and passed it on to Barry. Barry can now sit out the doldrum years on his ample arse, and collect a big fat Dail pension - He may even dabble in a little business on the side.

It's a wonderful life.

krd

Let's have a look at some of these absolutely "deserving" people earning over 100k a year.

1,700 bankers in state covered banks paid over €100,000

http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/1700-bankers-paid-over-100000-ireland-640721-Oct2012/


Parasites.

hognef

krd wrote: »

The German welfare system by the way, has completely changed. Unemployment benefit used to be linked to income - it could be as much as 80% of your previous wage. So people did take the piss.

Some people will always take the piss, however, whatever the max level is or used to be, I presume it would (and still will) reduce over time. In other words, there's an incentive to find work, unlike in Ireland, where once you've adjusted to being on the dole, that incentive just isn't there.

Sappa

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

TD Brian Hayes said yesterday on Newstalk that the real tax rate on any income in excess of 36k is 52%

Brian Hayes is basically ibec in disguise,he is in the top 5 tools in the current govt and that is some achievement.

kodoherty93

Cut the OAP they will death so anyway and they dont really contribute anything to society other endless calls to joe duffy.

Like realistically when they were working the country was poor so im sure they paid about 5-10% of the pension they have now

Idbatterim

Cut the OAP they will death so anyway and they dont really contribute anything to society other endless calls to joe duffy.

Like realistically when they were working the country was poor so im sure they paid about 5-10% of the pension they have now

Ah well they can phone Joe Duffy for free with their phone allowance and all that free time they have on their hands. my dad is german, just reached retirement age, german pension per week? E90 and health care (based on what he paid in, not much as he moved here in 1972). Irish one E230 and a list of allowances so long i couldnt even be bothered to write them out... Now E230 mightnt be very much if someone paid in a fortune, but the difference between someone who contributed nothing and potentially millions over their lives, is E20 per week LOL

Sappa

kodoherty93 wrote: »

Cut the OAP they will death so anyway and they dont really contribute anything to society other endless calls to joe duffy.

Like realistically when they were working the country was poor so im sure they paid about 5-10% of the pension they have now

Well you obviously haven't a clue coming out with a statement like that,good lad.

Idbatterim

taken from Wikipedia!

Rates of income tax
Since 1 January 2012, the tax rates apply as follows:[7]
At 20% (the standard rate):
the first €32,800, for individuals without dependent children
the first €36,800, for single or widowed persons qualifying for the One-Parent Family tax credit
the first €41,800, for married couples.
The balance of income is taxed at 41% (the higher rate).
The €41,800 amount may, for married couples, be increased by the lesser of: €23,800 or the income of the second spouse. This brings the total maximum standard rate band for a married couple to €65,600,[8] twice the single person's band. The increase is not transferable between spouses.

krd

hognef wrote: »

Some people will always take the piss, however, whatever the max level is or used to be, I presume it would (and still will) reduce over time.

No, they completely reformed their system, back about 2004. Hartz IV. Their system is now like our system - it's possible that they took us as the model.

The piss taking in Germany was outrageous. There was one instance of a former bank manager, who had lost his job in the early 80s. The German welfare system was paying him 40 grand a year, and they were renting a mansion for him in Florida (Yes Florida, USA, there isn't one in Germany). He really knew how to milk the system.

Something about America. People are under the impression that their welfare system is exceptionally harsh. It all depends on which state you're in. In the staunchly republican southern states, welfare is really low. But if you're in a wealthy northern blue state like Massachusetts, they still have income linked welfare - that's actually closer to the old German system. A laid off single school teacher - might be getting 500 quid a week in Mass.

Ireland had an income linked welfare system many many moons ago. It had to be dropped. Because there is a few problems in it.

If you're a banker, and you lose your job - if the welfare system is income linked, then you have no incentive to get a job flipping burgers in McDonalds. And that was the situation in Germany.

In other words, there's an incentive to find work, unlike in Ireland, where once you've adjusted to being on the dole, that incentive just isn't there.

"lifers" exist. But there's never as many of them as people think. It's down in the low thousands...And intergenerational "lifers", may only be down in the hundreds.

The UK Tory government when they came to power recently were going to go on a crusader against the lifers. And they found, or the UK stats people found, there are only something like eight thousand of them. And most poor people in the UK sporadically work - they're on and off the dole - this is the wonderful labour "flexibility".

Finn Gael, would love to copy the Tories - not because what they do makes any sense - but on an emotional level...on the basis of spiritual admiration.

When unemployment in Ireland, was much lower than it is now, and the benefits were higher.....Why didn't all those people who were working but worse off for working, just pack it in and go on the dole? It's the same people, just different circumstances.

Deank

jjmcclure wrote: »

What expenses can a PAYE worker offset against tax? Please tell me. Remember the vast majority of workers in Ireland pay little or no tax.

What planet are you on "the majority of workers in Ireland pay little or no tax", most of the people I know are paying 52% of their salary after the cut off. Personally I'm getting fleeced by nearly 2k a month to subsidise the b(w)ankers

Madd Finn

jjmcclure wrote: »

What expenses can a PAYE worker offset against tax? Please tell me. Remember the vast majority of workers in Ireland pay little or no tax.

Missing the point.

Anybody, regardless of whether they are on 100 or 100grand a week pays huge amounts of tax every time they light up, fill up or have a pint. Doesn't matter whether you're PAYE or not.

For lower paid workers, that amounts to a larger PERCENTAGE of their income.

I accept that the lion's share of tax comes from the upper-middle income earners. But the percentage of their income that goes on tax is probably less than the lower paid worker who gets clobbered by indirect taxes.

I think we're talking about different percentages here.

newmug

Feckin feck sake! A neighbour of mine bought a donkey last week because diesel is too dear. When I read the thread title, I thought it was about actually taxing donkeys!

murphaph

krd wrote: »

By the way, if you don't know who the fine young gentleman in the picture is, it's the one and only Barry Cowen.

During the boom time, Barry was a captain of private enterprise....He was an auctioneer. But alas, through no fault of his own, the auctioneering business turned sour. But just as luck would have it, his brother Brian was vacating his Dail seat (had enough of milking the cattle), and passed it on to Barry. Barry can now sit out the doldrum years on his ample arse, and collect a big fat Dail pension - He may even dabble in a little business on the side.

He didn't pass it on. Barry Cowen was elected by the people in a free and secret ballot. Most people in Ireland pretty much deserve to be tax donkeys when they go out and keep political dynasties like this alive....because Brian and his old man did "great work in the area".

Those of us wise enough to spot this carry on are unfortunately in the minority. Most people, as evidenced by those we vote for, are idiots.

jjmcclure

@krd
Get your facts straight. The richest man in America lives in a state with no state income tax. Also Washington state is far from a kip, Seattle is full of smart wealthy people making a good life for themselves by being a productive member of society, and not believing the world owes them a living/handout.

Also if you bothered to read my OP you would have realised my road tax and tolls pay for the roads, not Prsi or PAYE!!

Prisons, what a joke!!! Rapists and gang lords roaming the streets!
The guards have a hard job I admit that. Called them twice last month, still waiting for them to show up.

Idbatterim

Also if you bothered to read my OP you would have realised my road tax and tolls pay for the roads, not Prsi or PAYE!!

Prisons, what a joke!!! Rapists and gang lords roaming the streets!
The guards have a hard job I admit that. Called them twice last month, still waiting for them to show up.

my folks also called them twice last week and they didnt show. Likewise Id like to think my €1005 per year motor tax and the ridiculous cost of fuel goes to the upkeep of roads... Also can I just say, i reckon that road tax is far too low for many road users, reckon it should be a E500 or so minimum per year and increase it by maybe E50 for every extra 100cc, do something similar with emissions based system! ridiculous that some with small engines or low and lowish emissions are paying virtually nothing, they were using the same roads the last time i checked!

krd

Idbatterim wrote: »

Id like to think my €1005 per year motor tax and the ridiculous cost of fuel goes to the upkeep of roads... Also can I just say, i reckon that road tax is far too low for many road users, reckon it should be a E500 or so minimum per year and increase it by maybe E50 for every extra 100cc, do something similar with emissions based system!

Likewise ridiculous that some with small engines or low and lowish emissions are paying virtually nothing, they were using the same roads the last time i checked!

Big bollock manly car engines are more wear and tear on the roads. People don't need 4x4s for town driving. Only to show off - show how "successful" they are - no fools here.

And there's more to it than that. Every time a bollock, one of those men who gets an erection watching Jermey Clarkson, stroke his engine, buys a big bollocky car. Money flows out of the economy - because we don't make big bollock cars here. We're not Germans. We don't have those skills. We can dig a hole, or build a ghost estate from plasterboard. But high quality motor vehicles are beyond us.

So, to get the trade balance there needs to be a clawback - and that's done through road tax (as well as other taxes that are more stealthy than they first appear).

If you don't like it


Buy Irish...And get a donkey.



It's a 4x4, that can fit a lot of turf.

Idbatterim

dont worry krd, its far from a new car im driving. I totally agree with you by the way about the money flowing out, but the new cars are already heavily taxed with VRT and vat, you cant stop people buying new cars, there should however possibly be even higher Vrt on these cars...

hognef

krd wrote: »

No, they completely reformed their system, back about 2004. Hartz IV. Their system is now like our system - it's possible that they took us as the model.

Just looked up Hartz on Wikipedia. Sounds like unemployment benefit for the first 12 months is still a percentage (60+) of previous earnings. After that initial period, it is significantly reduced, no longer related to salary, and instead means-tested.

How is this like the Irish model? Am I missing something here?

Stheno

hognef wrote: »

Just looked up Hartz on Wikipedia. Sounds like unemployment benefit for the first 12 months is still a percentage (60+) of previous earnings. After that initial period, it is significantly reduced, no longer related to salary, and instead means-tested.

How is this like the Irish model? Am I missing something here?

THe person who posted it has gotten their facts wrong.

It's the model you posted, but gets progressively more punitive.

My household would be a tax donkey, but we are not a particularly extravagent couple so we adjust.

bbsrs

Idbatterim wrote: »

my folks also called them twice last week and they didnt show. Likewise Id like to think my €1005 per year motor tax and the ridiculous cost of fuel goes to the upkeep of roads... Also can I just say, i reckon that road tax is far too low for many road users, reckon it should be a E500 or so minimum per year and increase it by maybe E50 for every extra 100cc, do something similar with emissions based system! ridiculous that some with small engines or low and lowish emissions are paying virtually nothing, they were using the same roads the last time i checked!

Off topic but they should abolish road tax and add it to fuel , the more you consume the more you pay and continue with road tax for commercial vehicles while giving them a way to claim back the extra they have to pay on the fuel.

stoneill

No such thing as road tax.
Motor tax is paid on the benefit of owning a motor car.
That goes to local councils.

I wouldn't gripe about tax if I saw a benefit, but I don't see it.

The schools where my kids go always have their hand out for support.
The hospitals around are always raising funds.
The bins are being collected by private enterprises.
The streets are unswept and drains blocked.
The local park is full of litter.
The street lights are not being repaired.
The trees and hedges are overgrown.
Street furniture is not maintained.
Roads are not being fixed.

As a PAYE worker I don't have any control about whether I want to pay tax or not, but more infuriating is that I have no control on what that tax is spent on.

Stheno

stoneill wrote: »

No such thing as road tax.
Motor tax is paid on the benefit of owning a motor car.
That goes to local councils.

I wouldn't gripe about tax if I saw a benefit, but I don't see it.

The schools where my kids go always have their hand out for support.
The hospitals around are always raising funds.
The bins are being collected by private enterprises.
The streets are unswept and drains blocked.
The local park is full of litter.
The street lights are not being repaired.
The trees and hedges are overgrown.
Street furniture is not maintained.
Roads are not being fixed.

As a PAYE worker I don't have any control about whether I want to pay tax or not, but more infuriating is that I have no control on what that tax is spent on.

It's spent on maintaining the Dail and Seanad, traffic lights and traffic control, emergency services, subsiding the Health Service, and ensuring the Revenue and Department of Social Protection can do their job.

Idbatterim

Off topic but they should abolish road tax and add it to fuel , the more you consume the more you pay and continue with road tax for commercial vehicles while giving them a way to claim back the extra they have to pay on the fuel.

makes sense to a certain extent, but a lot of people might start fueling in northern ireland if this were the case, at least people in border counties, I expect.

bbsrs

Idbatterim wrote: »

makes sense to a certain extent, but a lot of people might start fueling in northern ireland if this were the case, at least people in border counties, I expect.

I'm way off topic now as donkeys don't pay any tax or use any fuel but

I did some calculations , the average motorist does 10000 miles per year , let's say average fuel consumption of 7.7 miles per litre (35mpg) . 10000/7.7 = roughly 1300 litres per year average motorist consumption . Average car tax under emissions system €330 per year . Add 26 cent to the cost of a litre of fuel and abolish motor tax . A much fairer system that should generate the same amount of revenue. As for border counties motorists heading north for fuel in that case , maybe depending on sterling . At the moment diesel is 20 cent cheaper in the south . Petrol is only 4 cent cheaper on average.

krd

Stheno wrote: »

It's spent on maintaining the Dail and Seanad, traffic lights and traffic control, emergency services, subsiding the Health Service, and ensuring the Revenue and Department of Social Protection can do their job.

And making sure, 1,700, bankers in state supported banks can be paid more than 100k a year.

A minimum, of €170,000,000 spent on 1,700, our finest traditional Irish bankers.

Well, I prefer seeing the money go to bankers than single mothers, or children with "special needs" (I didn't have "special needs" when I was a child -what's all that nonsense about at all). Because the bankers are wealth creators. They took risks, and worked in private enterprise creating wealth, where they could have just got easy and protected jobs in the public sector. We need to reward risk takers, and wealth creators.

stoneill

Stheno wrote: »

It's spent on maintaining the Dail and Seanad, traffic lights and traffic control, emergency services, subsiding the Health Service, and ensuring the Revenue and Department of Social Protection can do their job.

So it's spent on things that mean fúck all to me then.

PauloMN

Completely agree with the OP. Those on over €100k (a small group) already contribute a huge portion of overall tax revenue. Who came up with this arbitrary figure of €100k anyway? SF and ULA, those who think earning good money in Ireland is some sort of sin that should be punished. And before anyone says it, I'm waaaaay down the earning scale from that figure.

To me, private sector workers on over €100k earnings p/a are generally the risk takers, those who have worked damn hard for their crust and made sacrifices in their lives for their job. You don't get €100k for nothing in the private sector, you get it for talent, hard graft and commitment. These people already pay a huge amount of tax as can be seen from the breakdowns.

These people are also generally the people who create jobs. Real jobs, not some bull**** temporary scheme job that's not going to result in a real job. I'd suggest that some of these people are close to the point of packing it in and going elsewhere should they be hit again with more tax hikes.

To place even more of the burden on these people while still maintaining core social welfare rates is scandalous. If you're going to hit people to save our country from going down the toilet, everyone must share the pain. Everyone. The only people whose benefits should not be hit are the truly vulnerable - those with disabilities and carers of those with disabilities. "Vulnerable" does not simply mean "pensioners" or those on social welfare.

nice_guy80

PauloMN wrote: »

Completely agree with the OP. Those on over €100k (a small group) already contribute a huge portion of overall tax revenue. Who came up with this arbitrary figure of €100k anyway? SF and ULA, those who think earning good money in Ireland is some sort of sin that should be punished. And before anyone says it, I'm waaaaay down the earning scale from that figure.

To me, private sector workers on over €100k earnings p/a are generally the risk takers, those who have worked damn hard for their crust and made sacrifices in their lives for their job. You don't get €100k for nothing in the private sector, you get it for talent, hard graft and commitment. These people already pay a huge amount of tax as can be seen from the breakdowns.

These people are also generally the people who create jobs. Real jobs, not some bull**** temporary scheme job that's not going to result in a real job. I'd suggest that some of these people are close to the point of packing it in and going elsewhere should they be hit again with more tax hikes.

To place even more of the burden on these people while still maintaining core social welfare rates is scandalous. If you're going to hit people to save our country from going down the toilet, everyone must share the pain. Everyone. The only people whose benefits should not be hit are the truly vulnerable - those with disabilities and carers of those with disabilities. "Vulnerable" does not simply mean "pensioners" or those on social welfare.

people on €100k and over do make use of the public services
health - look at the free health checks for expecting mothers
education - primary and secondary education is free. 3rd level is heavily subsidised
libraries, water supplies, sewerage the list goes on

stoneill

stoneill wrote: »

Roads are not being fixed.

That bit simply isn't true.

The roads on my commute to work were liberally ruined by the "big snow" in 2010. By the end of the following summer, every pothole and bit of damage on the route was gone.

I would also estimate that up to 20% of the rest of my route has been the subject of fixing or new surfacing over the last two years.

Whereas I lived through the recession in the 1980s, when everything was left to rot and nothing got done. Nothing got fixed. Nothing got tidied up. Absolutely nothing.

antoobrien

Deank wrote: »

What planet are you on "the majority of workers in Ireland pay little or no tax", most of the people I know are paying 52% of their salary after the cut off.

The vast majority of the people I know are also paying that, but then I work in IT and we're paid more than most. For a more realistic view I suggest you take a good look at the latest income distribution statistics published by revenue, your eyes might get opened a bit.

Revenue themselves state that there are 946,643 people (45% of the tax net) that do not pay any tax as their tax credits cancel the tax due.

In 2010 (latest tax year available) there were 1,432,800 people earning up to 40k gross in the tax net - 68% of the total. They cumulatively paid €935.12m in income tax (most of which was paid by the 30k-40k bracket).

The other 655,643 taxpayers paid the balance of the income tax, amounting to 8,880m.

Deank wrote: »

Personally I'm getting fleeced by nearly 2k a month to subsidise the b(w)ankers

You're not subsidizing the bakers, the people who were stupid enough to buy eircom shares at the top of a telecoms bubble are.

No you're subsidizing the three biggest charities in the state - Department of Social Protection, Department of Health & Children and the Department of Education. The net spending on these three departments (DSP spent 20 or so last year including about 7 billion in PRSI that is included in figures as a department receipt) was 34.45bn. In contrast the total amount the exchequer has put into the banks (i.e. borrowed) is 17bn (the rest has come from NPRF).

earlyevening

Dont forget that (completely unfairly) the self employed pay 10% USC over 100k income rather than 7% that the PAYE worker pays.

I dont understand why a business owner should pay more tax on, lets say 120k income than a senior public servant on the exact same income.

Thus the marginal tax rate for them is 55% (as opposed to 52% for PAYE workers).

Farmer Pudsey

bbsrs wrote: »

I'm way off topic now as donkeys don't pay any tax or use any fuel but

I did some calculations , the average motorist does 10000 miles per year , let's say average fuel consumption of 7.7 miles per litre (35mpg) . 10000/7.7 = roughly 1300 litres per year average motorist consumption . Average car tax under emissions system €330 per year . Add 26 cent to the cost of a litre of fuel and abolish motor tax . A much fairer system that should generate the same amount of revenue. As for border counties motorists heading north for fuel in that case , maybe depending on sterling . At the moment diesel is 20 cent cheaper in the south . Petrol is only 4 cent cheaper on average.

It would be a retrograde step to change from motortax to a tax on fuel while it might be greener it would put a bigger burden on people who work.
If car fuel went up by 26cent/litre it wouldcause more workers to give up work. Take a worker tarvelling a 100 mile round journey to work or 500/week at 35mpg this would add 17 euro/week to his travelling expenses.
For buisness involved in mobility (where there workers use vans or cars not to mind trucks) this could also add 20 euro/week for each vehicule. Not some that is unemployed doing 4-5K miles per week would be better off I know by only a small amount but OAP and retired people doing low milage would also benifit as opposed to workers.

Elvis_Presley

krd wrote: »

Well, I prefer seeing the money go to bankers than single mothers, or children with "special needs" (I didn't have "special needs" when I was a child -what's all that nonsense about at all). Because the bankers are wealth creators. They took risks, and worked in private enterprise creating wealth, where they could have just got easy and protected jobs in the public sector. We need to reward risk takers, and wealth creators.

Bankers = wealth creators? What wealth are they creating? They move money around, skimming a percentage. Not creating wealth. Engineers, scientist etc are wealth creators. Creating something from pure human effort and intelligence (e.g. software) or adding value to raw materials like manufacturing.

krd

Elvis_Presley wrote: »

Bankers = wealth creators? What wealth are they creating? They move money around, skimming a percentage. Not creating wealth. Engineers, scientist etc are wealth creators. Creating something from pure human effort and intelligence (e.g. software) or adding value to raw materials like manufacturing.

I was being sarcastic. Everyone knows that bankers, human resource "managers", anyone in finance, or fat paddy whacks who someone set up a job for, are just blood sucking social parasites, who contribute absolutely nothing to anything.

They're like head lice.




Wealth creators, my arse


"manage my arse, mo fo ka"

jjmcclure

Well at last I hear some sense being talked. Income Tax cuts needed, austerity not working and holding back growth.

I would love to hear proposals from other tax donkeys on how/who should get an income tax cut. Here's mine.

Anyone over 100k should get an immediate tax cut as they pay too much tax/USC/PRSI already and they use very few Govt. services.
Anyone working and not in the tax net now should contribute something.

AlekSmart

jjmcclure wrote: »

Well at last I hear some sense being talked. Income Tax cuts needed, austerity not working and holding back growth.

I would love to hear proposals from other tax donkeys on how/who should get an income tax cut. Here's mine.

Anyone over 100k should get an immediate tax cut as they pay too much tax/USC/PRSI already and they use very few Govt. services.
Anyone working and not in the tax net now should contribute something.

Firstly,have the State walk away from the ludicrous "Working Time Directive" which it currently embraces and imposes with a high degree of costly application.

This nonsense imposes an Income Cap on every productive minded worker in the Country,and feeds the entire "I'd be better of on the Dole" mentality.

Personally I see nothing wrong with the Earn More-Pay More philisophy as long as you enable workers to actually be able to maximize their potential earnings without some half-witted EU directive,dating back to a long-gone era,being slapped in front of them.

We badly need a reinvigoration of the Work Ethic in Ireland...as it currently stands,productive Labour is seen as just one of the Options available to people rather than the primary source of wealth and progress which it should be ?

Geuze

Some ATRs are too low.

My parents on 50k pay 5% income tax.

That's too low.

Cody Pomeray

jjmcclure wrote: »

In the run up to the budget a lot if kites are being flown about possible tax measures. A new one which is being pushed for by Labour back benchers (please f off to Cuba) is a proposal for a 48% tax rate on those earning over €100k. So once again a small subset of workers is being asked to subsidise the majority, many of whom pay little or no tax at all. I call this group the Irish Tax Donkey as they are expected to carry most of the burden.
Lets now examine what the average Tax Donkey gets for the huge amount of tax they pay:
Example- Married, two kids, PAYE worker on over €100k

Child benefit = 280 per month
Health = 0 (pays for private health)
School = School for two kids but also contributes cash as state funding insufficient to run school
Infrastructure= Roads telecoms etc = Zero pays huge road tax, utility bills etc with service charges
Emergency services, Garda, Fire etc. = Yes these services are there
State Pension = Who knows by the time I retire, I pay into a private pension so possibly Zero from the state in 20 years
That’s about it!!!
Can’t think of any other benefit from paying all tax,USC and PRSI.
Any other tax donkeys out there???

Why are you spelling out your tangible benefits received?

The Irish tax model is based on ability to pay, not tangible benefits received.

If you ever thought it was otherwise, then sorry but you're mistaken.

Why? Because the operations of the state bestow more intangible benefits than tangible benefits, and they generally accrue to a greater extent to those with assets.

Ability to pay is based on the aggregate benefits received including those intangible benefits you haven't mentioned.

It is the best paid individuals in society who tend to need access to human labour to enlarge their fortunes, they often need this labour to have received an education, they need reasonable corporate taxation, they need whole institutional structures who mainly exist to preserve monetary stability, such as the ECB, they need the machinery of state whose implementation of law and order protects the resources of asset owners.

Do we know life quality is roughly proportional to income in this country? Yes we do. How will we know when it ceases? When people with positive expectations start aspiring to slum life and unemployment.