Pulling for Interclub.

Mr. Larson

For the first time in my life I can honestly say that I can understand what motivates people to 'pull'. We've basically got one or two qualifiers remaining, pretty meaningless ones let's be honest as GOY, all the Monthly Medals etc. are done and dusted. Picture the scenario, you're playing well, you're on the cusp of a downward revision whereby if you beat CSS by one shot in your next round and it rules you out of Metro for next year and you feel might scupper any chance you might have of making a Barton team for the following year. Assuming you love the buzz of interclub golf would it be worth finishing high up in your weekend competition with 38pts and potentially damaging your chances for next year? For me this was always a no-brainer, no chance. Get as low as you can and see how good you can be at this game but for the first time ever I have to admit I asked myself was it worth it. Hoping against hope that people might answer this anonymous poll honestly as it would be interesting to see the results. So go on... would you 'pull' or have you ever done so?

Reganovski

Mr. Larson wrote: »

would you 'pull' or have you ever done so?

Pulling is bold, my mammy always says so....:p

Seriously, pulling is cheating as far as I'm concerned.

Mr. Larson

I'll be honest and say the thought crossed my mind... but I am fairly sure if I got the opportunity to get a decent score I just couldn't pull and would continue to try to squeeze every point I could.

Sandwlch

No. It's cheating. But many people are motivated to cheat, and do so, and are tolerated.

I have a very low opinion of interclub competitions - clubs with out of step or poorly managed handicapping, and those happy to fill teams with known bandits or pullers, have too big a bearing on the outcome of these competitions for them to have any credibility or legitimacy. Golfers are misled by team and competitive spirit, and club loyalty, into mistaking them for genuine competition.

Mr. Larson

Sandwlch wrote: »

No. It's cheating. But many people are motivated to cheat, and do so, and are tolerated.

I have a very low opinion of interclub competitions - clubs with out of step or poorly managed handicapping, and those happy to fill teams with known bandits or pullers, have too big a bearing on the outcome of these competitions for them to have any credibility or legitimacy. Golfers are misled by team and competitive spirit, and club loyalty, into mistaking them for genuine competition.

Can't argue with that. So many clubs & individuals seem to be consumed with interclub. It's easy to get caught up in it. In my experience, people are quick to distance themselves from banditry and pullage but just as quick to get behind & celebrate interclub success even when there are known bandits and pullers at the core of that success.

No takers for the 'Yes' vote yet by the way

Hacker111

never pulled (intentionally )

seen lads openly bash putts past hole on 17 and 18,...didn't like to watch it tbh

i love inter clubs.. my club has a clear opening next year for solid 11s to pair with our 3 x 3 handicaps... i hit 10.3 late in summer..finished yr 10.6...was 11 basically all year.... I knew by being cute I cud have held the 11 easily and maybe had a shot on teams next year... but i didnt really contemplate it..... now i have basically no chance of team..... it was easy for me at time but i do think back and say mmmmmm maybe i shud have :rolleyes:

Lawless2k12

I'll be straight up: Yes, I would. If I was off 5.5 and had a one footer on the 18th for 37pts I would "misread" it because I wouldn't want to miss out on the Bruen, Barton, Junior cup, etc.. There is very few people who are willing to play the team comps in my club so therefore I would definately pull to make sure we could fill a team next year. And some may consider it cheating, but most players on the teams are bandits and I am certainly not that! I never play for .1's, I never pull for selfish reasons and I never cheat scorewise. There's a huge difference in pulling to aid your club in a bandit filled team event to taking off 10 shots in a round to win a prize for yourself so please don't class them as the same thing. And as a matter of fact I played a guy off 8 in the junior cup this year and was beaten 3&2. Played great stuff, but tbh it's hard to beat a guy off 8 who has 14 pars and 2 birdies... now that's banditry! Especially when I found out he has been off 8 since 2001!

Rikand

In the past year i was on the Jimmy Bruen and Junior Cup teams. Over the course of the year, I got my handicap cut from 7 down to 4 but twice while breaking through the barriers of each team ( 6 for jimmy bruen and 5 for junior cup ) i was scolded by a couple of members of not being smart with my handicap and for not pulling up when I should have. Basically that I should have stayed off 6, because then our Jimmy Bruen and Junior Cup teams would be strong again next year.

I politely told each person to **** off and that i want to be the best golfer I can be.

It's shocking to think that there are people out there who play like this. I never want to play with anyone like this. it's digusting

Rikand

Lawless2k12 wrote: »

And as a matter of fact I played a guy off 8 in the junior cup this year and was beaten 3&2. Played great stuff, but tbh it's hard to beat a guy off 8 who has 14 pars and 2 birdies... now that's banditry! Especially when I found out he has been off 8 since 2001!

I can definitely appreciate this sentiment alright. I recently played against a member on this forum who plays off 9 in a match. I play off 5 at the moment. He constantly out-drove me. He hit every par 5 in 2, knocked up 3 or 4 birdies and had a heap of pars to boot.

banditry of the highest order, but sure what can you do :rolleyes:

GreeBo

Lawless2k12 wrote: »

I'll be straight up: Yes, I would. If I was off 5.5 and had a one footer on the 18th for 37pts I would "misread" it because I wouldn't want to miss out on the Bruen, Barton, Junior cup, etc.. There is very few people who are willing to play the team comps in my club so therefore I would definately pull to make sure we could fill a team next year. And some may consider it cheating, but most players on the teams are bandits and I am certainly not that! I never play for .1's, I never pull for selfish reasons and I never cheat scorewise. There's a huge difference in pulling to aid your club in a bandit filled team event to taking off 10 shots in a round to win a prize for yourself so please don't class them as the same thing.

sorry but no.despite how you try to soften it, they are both cheating. you deliberately left your handicap higher than it should be. i don't care why or the circumstances; that's cheating. who cares that you *think* others are cheating? if everyone had the same attitude where would the game be? please don't try to separate them, it's the exact same thing.

GreeBo

poll fixed!

kiers47

GreeBo wrote: »

sorry but no.despite how you try to soften it, they are both cheating. you deliberately left your handicap higher than it should be. i don't care why or the circumstances; that's cheating. who cares that you *think* others are cheating? if everyone had the same attitude where would the game be? please don't try to separate them, it's the exact same thing.

+1

Completely agree. If you are at this where does it stop. Will your 5.5 turn into 7.5 next year?
It sickens me that people are at this. I seen a guy only a monthish ago with a very make-able 4 footer on the 18th putt with his 60deg wedge.

Not sure of the circumstances he could have been just out of it. But the guy is a known bandit around the club.

Deep Thought

a Defo no...

Many moons ago we won International Pairs at our club. free trip to Scotland to play in a qualifier and hopefully to the finals

Was off 9.2 at the time

Week before heading off... Monthly Medal, 18th hole a par would get me a 67 and possibly Medal or class...but...next week is the trip...may get cut...

Made a 4 on the last got cut a shot

Off to international pairs..Me and Partner shot 39 pts....

40 pts qualified...that 1 cut shot cost us...

Don't pull....at least you know they way you play is fair and honest

stringy

We were doing really well in an interclub comp and I was playing great golf, my hcap was on the way down. The manager asked me not play in a comp as there was a good chance I'd lose shots with a good round. So although I did play on the day, I didn't officially enter, I went out and marked my playing partners card. I shot a 65 nett, it was the President's Prize. My manager shot 66 and was the winner. Did I pull? No I don't think so, but oh what could have been.

ps I never told the manager what I did in the end. We ended up winning the interclub comp.

Mr. Larson

That's Bizarre Stringy, usually Interclub competitions go on last years lowest handicap so if you were going well in an interclub competition it wouldn't have mattered what you did as it wasn't going to affect last years lowest? If you have a snoop at some of the winning teams in Metro or Towns Cup for example you'll notice that some juvenile players were on the winning and losing teams with 'current' handicaps of 4 or 5 but they were obviously not lower than 9 the previous year. Or maybe I am misunderstanding? Or unless it was a comp that goes off current handicap I can only assume?

Also, there is no telling what you might have scored if you were entering the comp, your 65 was a carefree 65 so that point is somewhat moot in my book. Pity all the same

PARlance

It seems to be focused on the guys that are out on the course and possibly pulling.

The bigger issue I think there may be a lot of people that consciously or subconsciously miss a qualifying competition if they were in the same situation.
E.g someone in this situation gets a call for pints with the lads, suddenly the golf is off the table and the conscience is clear.
Or, you go for that casual round with a friend that you've been meaning to do for ages rather than playing the comp.

In a way, the bandits are the stupid ones that play and make it obvious they are pulling up aren't they?

Potential minefield here I suppose.

I would hope that I would not let anything effect me in the same situation.


Maybe the poll should be "Have you ever" as it's one thing saying you wouldn't but another thing following up on this when put in the situation.

mike12

I wouldn't put myself in the position if i really wanted to play on a team i would just skip the comp, i play to the best of my ability each round so i couldn't pull up. The chances of it happening are slim enough but if i was on 8.5 and wanted to play towns cup and there were only 2 meanless counting comps left i would just skip them.
Mike

Rikand

stringy wrote: »

We were doing really well in an interclub comp and I was playing great golf, my hcap was on the way down. The manager asked me not play in a comp as there was a good chance I'd lose shots with a good round. So although I did play on the day, I didn't officially enter, I went out and marked my playing partners card. I shot a 65 nett, it was the President's Prize. My manager shot 66 and was the winner. Did I pull? No I don't think so, but oh what could have been.

ps I never told the manager what I did in the end. We ended up winning the interclub comp.

it was a bit mean of your manager to ask you not to play in the presidents prize - around here, that's one of the main competitions of the year.

Dr_Colossus

stringy wrote: »

We were doing really well in an interclub comp and I was playing great golf, my hcap was on the way down. The manager asked me not play in a comp as there was a good chance I'd lose shots with a good round. So although I did play on the day, I didn't officially enter, I went out and marked my playing partners card. I shot a 65 nett, it was the President's Prize. My manager shot 66 and was the winner. Did I pull? No I don't think so, but oh what could have been.

ps I never told the manager what I did in the end. We ended up winning the interclub comp.

That's the same as pulling/cheating in my book. You deliberately didn't enter in the competition knowing you were playing well in order to keep an overinflated handicap. Disgraceful carry on by your manager also asking you to not play in the presidents price, blatant cheating.

Winning the Presidents Prize far outweighs any potential good run in an interclub team competition in my book also. Were you manipulated to sitting out by your manager who fancied his own chances and saw you as his main competition?

Sandwlch wrote: »

I have a very low opinion of interclub competitions - clubs with out of step or poorly managed handicapping, and those happy to fill teams with known bandits or pullers, have too big a bearing on the outcome of these competitions for them to have any credibility or legitimacy. Golfers are misled by team and competitive spirit, and club loyalty, into mistaking them for genuine competition.

Agree with most of the above, it's only something like Senior Cup where handicaps are not a factor and true golf does the talking that are highly acclaimed interclub trophies. Golf clubs spend a significant portion of their budget each year on interclub competitions that only benefit a select few within the club. Perhaps a better focus would be to arrange better home and away competitions where everyone could compete.

stringy

Mr. Larson wrote: »

That's Bizarre Stringy, usually Interclub competitions go on last years lowest handicap so if you were going well in an interclub competition it wouldn't have mattered what you did as it wasn't going to affect last years lowest?

It was an uncommon comp where current h/caps were in play unfortunately. I'm well aware of the last year's hcap situation, so this incident was unique.

stringy

Dr_Colossus wrote: »

That's the same as pulling/cheating in my book. You deliberately didn't enter in the competition knowing you were playing well in order to keep an overinflated handicap. Disgraceful carry on by your manager also asking you to not play in the presidents price, blatant cheating.

Winning the Presidents Prize far outweighs any potential good run in an interclub team competition in my book also. Were you manipulated to sitting out by your manager who fancied his own chances and saw you as his main competition?

Well the fact is I put myself in a position where the opportunity to "pull up" would never arise, and even in circumstances where it does, it's simply not my game, I'd want the lowest possible score in order to reduce my hcap as much as possible. As to whether my handicap was overinflated at the time, this was simply not the case, as had been demonstrated by the previous number of weeks' adjustments, i.e. down, down, down, down.

What you have said is in fact defamatory, i.e. calling me a cheat, where there is absolutely no evidence of me cheating.

It was poor that my manager, perhaps in jest, suggested that I not lose too many shots, it was my first time playing interclub as an adult, so I was naive. I don't think he saw me as his main competitor, him winning and me not winning was simply a coincidence.

PARlance

stringy wrote: »

Well the fact is I put myself in a position where the opportunity to "pull up" would never arise, and even in circumstances where it does, it's simply not my game, I'd want the lowest possible score in order to reduce my hcap as much as possible. As to whether my handicap was overinflated at the time, this was simply not the case, as had been demonstrated by the previous number of weeks' adjustments, i.e. down, down, down, down.

But the previous number of weeks indicated that you may have had another cut.
You made a conscience decision not to play in fear that the trend would continue.
There is very little difference between that and making a conscience decision to miss a 3 footer on the 18th (that would also result in a cut).

It's just the the 3 footer on the 18th is more blatant. That guy would be labelled a bandit because he was silly enough to play.

Intention is the same in both cases, one just went about it a subtler way.

You didn't "Pull Up" but you "Pulled Out".

saintastic

Dr_Colossus wrote: »

Golf clubs spend a significant portion of their budget each year on interclub competitions that only benefit a select few within the club.

There are a wide range of competitions for club to enter from over 50 competitions, higher handicap (not sure of the names), middle handicap (Pierce Purcell/Jimmy Bruen), lower handicap (Metropolitan/Barton Cup/Junior Cup) competitions so it shouldn't benefit a select few.

stringy

ajcurry123 wrote: »

But the previous number of weeks indicated that you may have had another cut.
You made a conscience decision not to play in fear that the trend would continue.
There is very little difference between that and making a conscience decision to miss a 3 footer on the 18th (that would also result in a cut).

It's just the the 3 footer on the 18th is more blatant. That guy would be labelled a bandit because he was silly enough to play.

Intention is the same in both cases, one just went about it a subtler way.

You didn't "Pull Up" but you "Pulled Out".

I take your point, but equally I may never have had a good score. The hypothetical 3 foot putt wasn't there to miss. It was one competition, as it transpired I didn't have any more reductions for 6/7 weeks.

onlyfinewine

ajcurry123 wrote: »

But the previous number of weeks indicated that you may have had another cut.
You made a conscience decision not to play in fear that the trend would continue.
There is very little difference between that and making a conscience decision to miss a 3 footer on the 18th (that would also result in a cut).

It's just the the 3 footer on the 18th is more blatant. That guy would be labelled a bandit because he was silly enough to play.

Intention is the same in both cases, one just went about it a subtler way.

You didn't "Pull Up" but you "Pulled Out".

Ah!, the dreaded pullout, I remember it well, also described as "doing the duck". However back to golf.

Any bandit worthy of the inglorious name would have made sure to NOT be in the position of having to miss a putt on the 18th, so the question does not arise. But the fact that they are ruining the game for the rest of us is really the problem that needs solving.

In relation to not playing in a competition in order to not get cut I am more ambivalent because there is no evidence that you would play well on the day (it would be nice to think that you could provide a score to order) but as we all know that's not a runner, and you have not inflated your handicap by returning a "point one". You are not obliged to play in every competition.

Team captains or other people in charge of club teams who urge their members to play off a false handicap is a different matter altogether and reduces golf from a sport where the ethos is brilliant to a dirty game of who can play off the highest handicap with no honour involved.

It saddens me to look at the scores that are being submitted and when I hear that the competition was won with a brilliant score, I say No, the golf scores were the same but they were "Brilliant Handicaps".

spacecoyote

Lawless2k12 wrote: »

I'll be straight up: Yes, I would. If I was off 5.5 and had a one footer on the 18th for 37pts I would "misread" it because I wouldn't want to miss out on the Bruen, Barton, Junior cup, etc.. There is very few people who are willing to play the team comps in my club so therefore I would definately pull to make sure we could fill a team next year. And some may consider it cheating, but most players on the teams are bandits and I am certainly not that! I never play for .1's, I never pull for selfish reasons and I never cheat scorewise. There's a huge difference in pulling to aid your club in a bandit filled team event to taking off 10 shots in a round to win a prize for yourself so please don't class them as the same thing. And as a matter of fact I played a guy off 8 in the junior cup this year and was beaten 3&2. Played great stuff, but tbh it's hard to beat a guy off 8 who has 14 pars and 2 birdies... now that's banditry! Especially when I found out he has been off 8 since 2001!

To be honest this just reads as though you are trying to convince yourself that you're serving the greater good. The reality is that this is just cheating, plain & simple imo.

PARlance

onlyfinewine wrote: »

In relation to not playing in a competition in order to not get cut I am more ambivalent because there is no evidence that you would play well on the day (it would be nice to think that you could provide a score to order) but as we all know that's not a runner, and you have not inflated your handicap by returning a "point one". You are not obliged to play in every competition.

"The manager asked me not play in a comp as there was a good chance I'd lose shots with a good round."
Is what I was replying to, it's not as blatant as some forms, but it's still a form of protecting your handicap.

GreeBo

stringy wrote: »

Well the fact is I put myself in a position where the opportunity to "pull up" would never arise, and even in circumstances where it does, it's simply not my game, I'd want the lowest possible score in order to reduce my hcap as much as possible. As to whether my handicap was overinflated at the time, this was simply not the case, as had been demonstrated by the previous number of weeks' adjustments, i.e. down, down, down, down.

I dont see how you can argue this point to be honest.
The facts as you have described them are:

1) You had been playing well and your handicap was going "down, down"
2) There was a good chance that you would get cut if you played
3) You played on the day and shot a 65
4) You went on to play the inter-club

How is that any different than playing in a comp having an NR because things were going well? Clearly you were very confident in getting a cut, so much so that you didnt risk playing. When I am playing well I still have over par rounds in the middle, but you seem to be going "down, down, down, down" in your last rounds...

Why not enter the min number of qualifying comps next year but keep playing, that way you can be sure you get on the team next year too!

stringy

GreeBo wrote: »

Why not enter the min number of qualifying comps next year but keep playing, that way you can be sure you get on the team next year too!

I do play the minimum number of competitions, more in fact. This was 2005, I started back playing after college, I had h/cap of 14, I went out to 15, then to 12, then to 10, to 2008 when I got to 6.6, I am now 7.5, I have had an honest handicap through the years, it's on golfnet to see. I chose to not play in one competition because we had an interclub final coming up. I sat one comp out in the last 8 years and I'm being branded a cheat - very harsh, but you're all entitled to your opinion.

ps as it happens I don't play interclub any more, internal politics has driven me to say thanks but no thanks when asked!

onlyfinewine

stringy wrote: »

I do play the minimum number of competitions, more in fact. This was 2005, I started back playing after college, I had h/cap of 14, I went out to 15, then to 12, then to 10, to 2008 when I got to 6.6, I am now 7.5, I have had an honest handicap through the years, it's on golfnet to see. I chose to not play in one competition because we had an interclub final coming up. I sat one comp out in the last 8 years and I'm being branded a cheat - very harsh, but you're all entitled to your opinion.

ps as it happens I don't play interclub any more, internal politics has driven me to say thanks but no thanks when asked!

Here lads, this is very harsh on a guy playing off a more genuine handicap than most. He couldn't be a bandit because he is too straight! I doubt that more than 10 per cent of players are whiter than white when it comes to point ones, all you have to do is look at the scores returned on howdodido.co.uk and plot them on a graph. The resulting bell curve will not ring true!!! Sorry about the pun.

The real enemy is guys who are building handicaps over years in order to "Win" major or interclub competitions and the question is what can be done about it. I would love to hear some good suggestions that are workeable. The Pierce Purcell cup down here in Munster has guys playing off 15 or 16 who should be singles figure handicaps, yet year after year they appear playing off ever more inflated handicaps, in the meanwhile they are winning classics and getting cuts that band aids would cure and picking up point ones in order to re-inflate their handicaps asap.

MP62

No, never, there's is no legitimate reason under any circumstances, you should feel ashamed for just even thinking about it, nevermind actually starting a thread trying to justify it.

Almaviva

stringy wrote: »

I take your point, but equally I may never have had a good score. The hypothetical 3 foot putt wasn't there to miss. It was one competition, as it transpired I didn't have any more reductions for 6/7 weeks.

First, appreciate the honesty of those 'confessing' here even if disagree with some of the rationale trying to justify it. However....

On the issue of not participating in a comp incase of a cut being some how OK and not in the same league as the deliberately missed 3fter - the sin is in thought. If avoiding the 'risk' of being cut at all colours a persons decision to play in a comp they are cheating. If someone was away or unable to play for whatever reason, then no problem - the handicap is good. But once the possibility of being cut has a bearing on it, the handicap is being manipulated.

The guy missing the 3 footer could make the same argument - "am not a great putter - I might have missed it anyway".

Amazing the hoops people jumping through to justify their handicap 'maintenance'. For me, there are no shades of grey on this issue of what is or isnt OK to slightly influence a handicap - all who have done anything along the lines of the methods being discussed here are in the same boat as Lance Armstrong.

GreeBo

so skipping one comp is ok now...care to tell us when it does become cheating?
2, 5 10 maybe?
sorry but it's 0 for me and should be the same for everyone, otherwise when i play you we are not playing the same game.

Corkblowin

GreeBo wrote: »

so skipping one comp is ok now...care to tell us when it does become cheating?
2, 5 10 maybe?
sorry but it's 0 for me and should be the same for everyone, otherwise when i play you we are not playing the same game.

I'm inclined on the basis of what he says to give him the benefit of the doubt - one competition missed (albeit a big one) isn't a mortal sin. Besides, shooting 65 when you know you're not in a competition is a lot easier than when you've a scorecard in your hand - I've shot the lights out on summer evenings after work only to f it all up on Saturday morning.

A bigger issue is the guys who only play four balls or tea comps - but then win the only big singles competition they enter. There was a few at my former club who would never be seen for weekend singles, only to reappear in the crap winter weather when cutting was not in. They were blacklisted from the inter club teams though - didn't want to get a name for being a club that played bandits.

GreeBo

missing a comp isn't a big deal; missing it so you don't get cut is.

onlyfinewine

Dr_Colossus wrote: »

Agree with most of the above, it's only something like Senior Cup where handicaps are not a factor and true golf does the talking that are highly acclaimed interclub trophies. Golf clubs spend a significant portion of their budget each year on interclub competitions that only benefit a select few within the club. Perhaps a better focus would be to arrange better home and away competitions where everyone could compete.

Except that the larger clubs seem to gather the best players for the Senior Cup and Barton Shield by poaching, making the field quite uneven for the smaller clubs who have less talent to pick from in the first place. It's still all about trophies and pennants.

Even the Pierce Purcell which was originally mooted as a social event for those golfers not talented enough to make the other teams has become a hotbed for inflated handicaps. It's quite sad.

Lawless2k12

Just to clarify, I have never actually pulled but I would if it meant filling a team next year. I'm off 5.8 at the moment and have only been playing 5 years. I only started whan I was late 13. Perhaps my morals aren't as high as the rest of you due to my age, or maybe it's the fact that I am surrounded by numerous amounts of bandits (1 of them has won 4 monthly medal this year, 3 player of the years in a row inc. this year, a carrigan trophy, 2nd in captains, gross in presidents and a few other prizes probably totalling about €600 or so and he is off .2 lower than what he started the year on), but either way I would pull if it was the end of the year and it was that .1 that would ruin the team next year. Yes it's wrong but so is the whole team event scenario in golf! Doesn't mean its right to pull by any means obviously but what difference does .1 make to your golf? A 5 is basically a 6 in reality and alls that .1 will do is destroy any chance your club has of playing next year.

And tbh, clubs would suffer like hell if bandits were to stop playing in opens. Think of how much money would be lost. The GUI will never do anything to stop bandits gaining .1's because it would put every club in serious danger of going under. In one way they keep clubs going, even if they are the worst thing about golf.

onlyfinewine

GreeBo wrote: »

missing a comp isn't a big deal; missing it so you don't get cut is.

You do have the right to decide whether or not you play in any particular competition. What fears or hopes you have are entirely your own. Whether that would result in an increase or decrease of handicap is again a moot point as you did not actually play in the competition. Sharing your thoughts on this forum will inevitably result in your getting castigated from the one side, but in this case, obviously not praised form the other. If you decided not to play because let's say there was a strong sideways wind and you were afraid you would get a point one increase would it be any different. Last week the winner of our last major competition entered the club singles, but when he found that the ball was getting preferred lies in the rough he withdrew his entry as he would not get a point one.

GreeBo

i equally have the right to never hit more than a wedge and only putt with my 1 iron.
i wonder what that would do for my handicap...thinking about it i would probably waive my right to do the above for the competitions with the big prizes...all within my rights you understand.

ForeRight

Not playing to the best of ones ability every time you play just to get a .1 back or avoid a cut so you can stay on a certain club team is very very sad.

A sad way to play the game.


Id be prouder sitting in the bar playing off 3-4 rather than sitting in the bar after a barton cup game knowing I threw rounds away to keep my handicap higher than my ability and thinking I was Tiger Woods beating someone.

Alrite Chief

Remind me never to play in one of these stupid comps if there is people doing that ****e.

onlyfinewine

GreeBo wrote: »

i equally have the right to never hit more than a wedge and only putt with my 1 iron.
i wonder what that would do for my handicap...thinking about it i would probably waive my right to do the above for the competitions with the big prizes...all within my rights you understand.

Let me know when you want a game, I think I might be able for you as long as I can use the 14 clubs.:D

But of course if it is your choice to only use the 1 iron and the wedge you absolutely cannot waive any rights when you want to use the full set as they were your own decision.

The point you have avoided covering is whether one has the right to decide whether or not to enter any competition. There is no requirement except the need to provide the basic number of cards for handicap purposes. Anyone can choose which to participate in without any interference from outsiders.

One could decide for instance not to play in the weekly open singles debacle where only about 10 per cent of the field is actually trying and therefore the competition standard scratch score gets distorted. If you play in these to achieve a cut in handicap you have a good chance. ( forward tees, pins in middle of green) At the moment as the season winds down you can see loads of evidence of point one's being secured. As I said it's sad.

GreeBo

the need to provide the basic number of cards for handicap purposes.

clearly if you are avoiding cuts to keep your handicap artificially high then the above makes no difference to you. why would you ensure you played enough to have a valid gui handicap and then effectively invalidate it by avoiding cuts deliberately?
makes no sense tbh.

btw I'm not avoiding any point, i believe you are.
clearly everyone has the right to choose what competitions they enter, however if they are doing it to control their handicap then they are not playing the game in equity.

i believe you are vastly overestimating the numbers of people who are cheating and you are using this to justify unjustifiable behaviour.
golf scores for an individual will never follow a nice curve because it's much harder to be under par than over.
play your best all the time and forget about everyone else.

onlyfinewine

GreeBo wrote: »

clearly everyone has the right to choose what competitions they enter, however if they are doing it to control their handicap then they are not playing the game in equity.

You are totally missing the point, you can manipulate your handicap either up or down as you choose, and this is without using a "magic pencil". The system is wide open to this. I remember an article by no less a prominent figure than Pat Ruddy indicating that the system is a cheats charter" when it was introduced in 1984. Time has proved him right. What kind of system is that? Every handicap secretary in Ireland is aware of golfers who are playing off handicaps that in no way reflect their current capabilities and should in theory be able to adjust them to what they consider is correct for their abilities.But it is not happening. WHY? Because of the revenue requirements and the team aspirations of the clubs. Also the fear of litigation which has reared it's ugly head in recent times.

golf scores for an individual will never follow a nice curve because it's much harder to be under par than over.
play your best all the time and forget about everyone else.

In relation to the bell curve graph I instanced you have the wrong end of the stick, the scores mentioned reflect the scores of all the competitors not an individual golfer, however, I agree with your comment about trying to play your best at all times.

clearly if you are avoiding cuts to keep your handicap artificially high then the above makes no difference to you. why would you ensure you played enough to have a valid gui handicap and then effectively invalidate it by avoiding cuts deliberately?
makes no sense tbh.

Neither does your comment, maybe someone else can make sense of it and explain it? I don't know what point you are making.Sorry.

i believe you are vastly overestimating the numbers of people who are cheating and you are using this to justify unjustifiable behavior.

I believe I am correct in my estimation of the number of people who are manipulating their handicaps, in fact, I would go so far as to say that many golfers go out for a point one and openly declare so before playing. Other golfers realising that their chance of winning or coming close has gone will deliberately drop shots not to be in the buffer zone.

btw I'm not avoiding any point, i believe you are.

Maybe you will advise what point I am avoiding? I seem to have dealt with all of them of which I was aware.The point you have avoided covering is whether one has the right to decide whether or not to enter any competition. There is no requirement except the need to provide the basic number of cards for handicap purposes. Anyone can choose which to participate in without any interference from outsiders. Club Team competition has a slightly different requirement but even in this case it only requires 4 or 5 qualifying cards from the previous year.


One final note and looking at handicaps from a different perspective, a young member of our club practiced hard and finally got his handicap down to 0.4. He was justifiably proud as he could now enter a prestigious championship, the entries to which were closing the following night. There was a club singles being played the following day and he declined to play because he knew the greens had been hollow-tined and if he did not equal standard scratch or stay within the buffer zone he would get a point one and not be able to enter. Should he have played and jeopardised all the hard work? Was that manipulation or just good judgement? I leave it to you to decide.

kiers47

onlyfinewine wrote: »

You are totally missing the point, you can manipulate your handicap either up or down as you choose, and this is without using a "magic pencil". The system is wide open to this. I remember an article by no less a prominent figure than Pat Ruddy indicating that the system is a cheats charter" when it was introduced in 1984. Time has proved him right. What kind of system is that? Every handicap secretary in Ireland is aware of golfers who are playing off handicaps that in no way reflect their current capabilities and should in theory be able to adjust them to what they consider is correct for their abilities.But it is not happening. WHY? Because of the revenue requirements and the team aspirations of the clubs. Also the fear of litigation which has reared it's ugly head in recent times.



In relation to the bell curve graph I instanced you have the wrong end of the stick, the scores mentioned reflect the scores of all the competitors not an individual golfer, however, I agree with your comment about trying to play your best at all times.



Neither does your comment, maybe someone else can make sense of it and explain it? I don't know what point you are making.Sorry.



I believe I am correct in my estimation of the number of people who are manipulating their handicaps, in fact, I would go so far as to say that many golfers go out for a point one and openly declare so before playing. Other golfers realising that their chance of winning or coming close has gone will deliberately drop shots not to be in the buffer zone.



Maybe you will advise what point I am avoiding? I seem to have dealt with all of them of which I was aware.The point you have avoided covering is whether one has the right to decide whether or not to enter any competition. There is no requirement except the need to provide the basic number of cards for handicap purposes. Anyone can choose which to participate in without any interference from outsiders. Club Team competition has a slightly different requirement but even in this case it only requires 4 or 5 qualifying cards from the previous year.


One final note and looking at handicaps from a different perspective, a young member of our club practiced hard and finally got his handicap down to 0.4. He was justifiably proud as he could now enter a prestigious championship, the entries to which were closing the following night. There was a club singles being played the following day and he declined to play because he knew the greens had been hollow-tined and if he did not equal standard scratch or stay within the buffer zone he would get a point one and not be able to enter. Should he have played and jeopardised all the hard work? Was that manipulation or just good judgement? I leave it to you to decide.

The point at hand was that the poster had stated he deliberately stayed out of the "Presidents Prize" on the request from his Manager in order to not get cut. It is not a question of him not playing a comp because he didnt feel like it.
Why would he even post it on here if he though it ok to do?

He obviously wanted approval and for everyone to say oh thats grand bla bla bla....
He deliberately done something in order to affect his handicap and that for me is cheating.
Why turn up on the day of the president prize and not play anyway?

big_drive

onlyfinewine wrote: »

One final note and looking at handicaps from a different perspective, a young member of our club practiced hard and finally got his handicap down to 0.4. He was justifiably proud as he could now enter a prestigious championship, the entries to which were closing the following night. There was a club singles being played the following day and he declined to play because he knew the greens had been hollow-tined and if he did not equal standard scratch or stay within the buffer zone he would get a point one and not be able to enter. Should he have played and jeopardised all the hard work? Was that manipulation or just good judgement? I leave it to you to decide.

This is the other side of it. There are guys deliberately trying to keep their handicaps low and gain entry to championships. If you look at any of the major amatuer championships in Ireland a number of scores returned would suggest of lot of guys have a low handicap but are unable to play anywhere near it. How they managed to get their handicap that low I'd love to know?

GreeBo

onlyfinewine wrote: »

You are totally missing the point, you can manipulate your handicap either up or down as you choose, and this is without using a "magic pencil". The system is wide open to this. I remember an article by no less a prominent figure than Pat Ruddy indicating that the system is a cheats charter" when it was introduced in 1984. Time has proved him right. What kind of system is that? Every handicap secretary in Ireland is aware of golfers who are playing off handicaps that in no way reflect their current capabilities and should in theory be able to adjust them to what they consider is correct for their abilities.But it is not happening. WHY? Because of the revenue requirements and the team aspirations of the clubs. Also the fear of litigation which has reared it's ugly head in recent times.

The game is wide open to cheating, but that doesnt mean you have to cheat or advocate cheating.

onlyfinewine wrote: »

Neither does your comment, maybe someone else can make sense of it and explain it? I don't know what point you are making.Sorry.

I'll try again so. Why would someone ensure they play enough competitions to have a "valid" GUI handicap and then artificially manipulate their handicap by not entering competitions when they are playing well?

onlyfinewine wrote: »

I believe I am correct in my estimation of the number of people who are manipulating their handicaps, in fact, I would go so far as to say that many golfers go out for a point one and openly declare so before playing. Other golfers realising that their chance of winning or coming close has gone will deliberately drop shots not to be in the buffer zone.

So you stand by your comment that 90% of people who play in competitions are trying to get a 0.1? I wholeheartedly disagree.

onlyfinewine wrote: »

Maybe you will advise what point I am avoiding? I seem to have dealt with all of them of which I was aware.

You are avoiding the point that skipping a competition (but still playing!) to avoid getting cut is manipulating your handicap in the same way as not trying your best when you are in a competition.

onlyfinewine wrote: »

The point you have avoided covering is whether one has the right to decide whether or not to enter any competition.

Ok clearly you are trolling here as you have just quoted my own post where I say "clearly everyone has the right to choose what competitions they enter"

onlyfinewine wrote: »

There is no requirement except the need to provide the basic number of cards for handicap purposes.

Please explain the point of getting a handicap and then manipulating it outside of the system? The handicap system is there to allow people to play and compare themselves against each other. Using your logic you are now comparing each others judgements on what they consider cheating and what they dont.

onlyfinewine wrote: »

Should he have played and jeopardised all the hard work? Was that manipulation or just good judgement? I leave it to you to decide.

Clearly its manipulation.
Thats how you play the game! You play and you take your chances! You dont get to choose when you play well or play badly, you go out and play and add them up at the end.
Judgement isnt supposed to come into it.
Honestly I'm amazed at the attitude you are displaying here.
As for playing you in a match, forget it. I have zero faith in the accuracy of your handicap.

GreeBo

big_drive wrote: »

This is the other side of it. There are guys deliberately trying to keep their handicaps low and gain entry to championships. If you look at any of the major amatuer championships in Ireland a number of scores returned would suggest of lot of guys have a low handicap but are unable to play anywhere near it. How they managed to get their handicap that low I'd love to know?

Like John Dalys 86 at the Shriners the day after his 63?
A seasoned professional can have 23 shots more from one day to the next and you think an amateur off single figures is cheating because he does the same?

big_drive

GreeBo wrote: »

Like John Dalys 86 at the Shriners the day after his 63?
A seasoned professional can have 23 shots more from one day to the next and you think an amateur off single figures is cheating because he does the same?

Yes exactly. Not cheating by posting a high score but by being there in the first place. They are keeping their handicap deliberately low and get some type of ego boost to say they're able to play in the south of Ireland, east of Ireland, etc. they shouldn't be in these championships in the first place if their handicap was accurate. I'm not disputing that any golfer can have a high round but in a 36 hole competition when you see a guy playing off scratch shot 88, 87 you then know something is wrong when both rounds are that wide of the handicap.
Maybe someone on here like gorfield who plays in these championships would be better placed to comment on it, I'm sure he's seen guys in these championships who have no place there. But in their own minds they think they're an elite player because they play in these championships and have a handicap of scratch when in fact they should be playing off about 3

I've heard of low handicap players not signing into computer before rounds and seeing what score they have first. If they think it will get into buffer zone they sign in after round and enter score. If the score would mean .1 back they do nothing and as they haven't signed in they avoid .1 and handicap remains same.

FixdePitchmark

Almaviva wrote: »

First, appreciate the honesty of those 'confessing' here even if disagree with some of the rationale trying to justify it. However....

On the issue of not participating in a comp incase of a cut being some how OK and not in the same league as the deliberately missed 3fter - the sin is in thought. If avoiding the 'risk' of being cut at all colours a persons decision to play in a comp they are cheating. If someone was away or unable to play for whatever reason, then no problem - the handicap is good. But once the possibility of being cut has a bearing on it, the handicap is being manipulated.

The guy missing the 3 footer could make the same argument - "am not a great putter - I might have missed it anyway".

Amazing the hoops people jumping through to justify their handicap 'maintenance'. For me, there are no shades of grey on this issue of what is or isnt OK to slightly influence a handicap - all who have done anything along the lines of the methods being discussed here are in the same boat as Lance Armstrong.

Almaviva - was about to thank that till the last line - Lance Armstrong :eek::eek:

The principle and all that but , Lance Armstrong / Hitler.

BigChap1759

Lawless2k12 wrote: »

I'll be straight up: Yes, I would. If I was off 5.5 and had a one footer on the 18th for 37pts I would "misread" it because I wouldn't want to miss out on the Bruen, Barton, Junior cup, etc.. There is very few people who are willing to play the team comps in my club so therefore I would definately pull to make sure we could fill a team next year. And some may consider it cheating, but most players on the teams are bandits and I am certainly not that! I never play for .1's, I never pull for selfish reasons and I never cheat scorewise. There's a huge difference in pulling to aid your club in a bandit filled team event to taking off 10 shots in a round to win a prize for yourself so please don't class them as the same thing. And as a matter of fact I played a guy off 8 in the junior cup this year and was beaten 3&2. Played great stuff, but tbh it's hard to beat a guy off 8 who has 14 pars and 2 birdies... now that's banditry! Especially when I found out he has been off 8 since 2001!

Deliberate handicap manipulation, call it pulling, banditry whatever is just cheating and flies in the face of one of golfs most endearing values......