Road to Rio 2016 - Irish Olympic News

elastico

Rainman16 wrote: »

Realistically will we get any golds at all in this Olympics?

We got one in 56, one in 92 and one in 2012.

That's 1 every 20 years, or 1 every 10 years if you want to include Michelle smith.

How many were you expecting this time?

FixdePitchmark

mansize wrote: »

You need 100% commitment and professionalism at that level

Is that not a cliché but.

They are normal people from an incredible diverse backgrounds . For some of them to pick a sporting life is very challenging.

Some and typically the boxers are from very challenging backgrounds.

I think people are being unrealistic and puritanical here. Most people drink too much and do crazy things and make mistakes.

I'm not picking anyone as an example, but it is easier to be 100 % committed when you have a supportive family environment, corporate links, maybe a university degree and surrounded by balanced successful people.

Hard to judge someone, without walking their full life.

Oldira

flynng wrote: »

Was looking at the medal table and was wondering the same thing myself. It isn't looking promising. Boxing- possibly but dare not make any predictions such is the poor performances so far. Sailing- possible to pick up two medals here but again no certainties. Showjumping- after todays performance not likely, will be doing well to make the final. Triathlon and Modern Pentathlon- again anything is possible but our athletes are probably hoping for top 10 finishes as realistic aims rather than medals or golds. Athletics- athletes realistically looking for PB's, despite the the media's optimism for Mageean. Hopefully I'll be proven wrong!

This is being vastely overstated. We qualified 8 boxers which was a fantastic acheivement as the qualification process is vwery tough. Onlyy 22 boxers qualified at Light Fly so tjhere are no longer easy fights (except maybe the tri-partite invitations). We definitely got no favours in the draw and probably the lad that got the easiest draw was O'Reilly.
Barnes beat himself in leaving himself too much weight to shed.
Irvine is only 20 and came up against a really good boxer first time out
Conlan, Still there with a strong medal chance
Joyce won one fight and went down fighting to a serious boxer
Donnelly won two fights and then ran up against a World Champ
O'Reilly enough said
Ward..The only really poor performace. Inexplicable to be honest but even near his best he may not have beaten the Frenchman in the quarter finals.
Taylor..still there with a medal chance.
It is just because we had such high (too high) expectations that we are saying the Boxers had poor results.
At the last 4 World Championships our medal haul is SEVEN in total..2009 1 bronze, 2011 1 bronze, 2013 1 silver and 1 bronze and 2015 1 gold 1 silver and 1 bronze.

Dodge

Also on Ward, he would have won the fight if it wasn't for the 2 warnings.

The boxers are a victim of their own success. 3 medals would have been great for them. We still might get 2

Clearlier

Dodge wrote: »

Also on Ward, he would have won the fight if it wasn't for the 2 warnings.

The boxers are a victim of their own success. 3 medals would have been great for them. We still might get 2

You don't think that they're a victim of Billy Walsh not being part of the Irish camp? The medal trajectory under him was pretty clear. I haven't any special insight into how he operates but it can't just be luck that saw Irish performances go downwards and US performances go upwards in tandem with his switching camps. You can make all kinds of excuses about bad judges, personal circumstances and luck and you'd be right but a lot of what his position was about was mitigating those details and in my uninformed opinion the boxers have missed that.

walshb

Walsh's absence may or may not have been a factor. It can never be known. What is known is that a boxer is alone in that ring. Now, considering that I, and others thought we could have gotten decisions in MCs/Barnes' and Katie's fights, well, Billy doesn't seem much of a factor there.

As for the United States. That cannot be at all shown to be down to Walsh. Past results in recent games are irrelevant. The U.S. always has been one of the most dominant nations on earth for boxing. They have had excellent Olympic games, great, good, average and poor through the years. He's only been bloody with them a wet week.

mansize

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Is that not a cliché but.

They are normal people from an incredible diverse backgrounds . For some of them to pick a sporting life is very challenging.

Some and typically the boxers are from very challenging backgrounds.

I think people are being unrealistic and puritanical here. Most people drink too much and do crazy things and make mistakes.

I'm not picking anyone as an example, but it is easier to be 100 % committed when you have a supportive family environment, corporate links, maybe a university degree and surrounded by balanced successful people.

Hard to judge someone, without walking their full life.

If they want to get to the very top level 100% commitment is required. Sob stories don't win gold medals.

People from impoverished backgrounds have gotten golds

mansize

walshb wrote: »

Walsh's absence may or may not have been a factor. It can never be known. What is known is that a boxer is alone in that ring. Now, considering that I, and others thought we could have gotten decisions in MCs/Barnes' and Katie's fights, well, Billy doesn't seem much of a factor there.

I believe with Walshe in their corner, there would be do doubt, he brings that extra 5%

CrabRevolution

I think it's a bit demeaning to our boxing team to suggest it all boils down to Walsh and without him we don't stand a chance. We just had 2 good performances in boxing from our last 2 olympics, so maybe were a bit spoiled and expected too much. On top of underperforming this time, a lot of factors seem not to have worked in our favour in 1 or 2 fights (dodgy refereeing, a change to the scoring system, the removal of the appeals system).

walshb

mansize wrote: »

I believe with Walshe in their corner, there would be do doubt, he brings that extra 5%

Why are you spelling his name incorrectly?

Joe_ Public

I was of the initial opinion that Walsh's departure wouldn't have all that much of a short-term impact on the Irish squad and same for the US squad. But I believe now I was wrong. His presence in Rio would have been a significantly calming and reassuring one - no I can't prove that obviously - while the resoundingly positive testimonies from the Americans as to his input are inescapable and conclusive enough for me.

Basically, the Americans are still scratching their heads as to how such a world renowned coach/manager became available 8 months out from the Olympics. He's world class and he's heading up one of the biggest boxing programmes in the world. He's going to bring home medals from London, but then I'm sure people will say sure even Mickey Mouse could have trained Clarissa Shields to a gold medal.

mansize

walshb wrote: »

Why are you spelling his name incorrectly?

I should have dropped the e, is that what you're saying? 😜

It was a typo, on the phone. And here in the Midlands Walshe has an e lol

walshb

mansize wrote: »

I should have dropped the e, is that what you're saying? 😜

It was a typo, on the phone. And here in the Midlands Walshe has an e lol

No bother. I just thought I had seen that a few times on your posts and I was wondering was I getting his name wrong...

Dodge

CrabRevolution wrote: »

I think it's a bit demeaning to our boxing team to suggest it all boils down to Walsh and without him we don't stand a chance. We just had 2 good performances in boxing from our last 2 olympics, so maybe were a bit spoiled and expected too much. On top of underperforming this time, a lot of factors seem not to have worked in our favour in 1 or 2 fights (dodgy refereeing, a change to the scoring system, the removal of the appeals system).

Goof post

Here's our record in world championships in this golden era
2007 - no medals
2009 - one bronze (JJ Nevin is now pro)
2011 - one bronze (JJ Nevin is now pro)
2013 - one silver (Jay quigley is now pro), once bronze (Joe Ward)
2015* - one gold (Conlon), one silver (Ward), one bronze (O'Reilly)

We have OVER performed at Olympic Games with 3 medals in both 2008 and 2012. We've also lost a lot of top class boxers.

Of the 2 world championship medalists we had in Rio, one was unlucky to have 2 points deducted and the other was jobbed. O'Reilly had a great draw but we all know what happened him.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that losing Walsh wasn't an issue but it's way too simplistic to suggest we would have won loads of medals without him

*2015 World Champs were also missing plenty of the APB and WSB boxers that had already qualified for the Olympics.

mansize

Joe_ Public wrote: »

I was of the initial opinion that Walsh's departure wouldn't have all that much of a short-term impact on the Irish squad and same for the US squad. But I believe now I was wrong. His presence in Rio would have been a significantly calming and reassuring one - no I can't prove that obviously - while the resoundingly positive testimonies from the Americans as to his input are inescapable and conclusive enough for me.

Basically, the Americans are still scratching their heads as to how such a world renowned coach/manager became available 8 months out from the Olympics. He's world class and he's heading up one of the biggest boxing programmes in the world. He's going to bring home medals from London, but then I'm sure people will say sure even Mickey Mouse could have trained Clarissa Shields to a gold medal.

Some people are loathe to give the man any credit- like Gary Keegan before him!

walshb

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Mickey Mouse could have trained Clarissa Shields to a gold medal.

Probably true. She is already a world star anyway. Walsh is only with the U.S short time. Not to say that a short time cannot be an effective time.

mansize

walshb wrote: »

Probably true. She is already a world star anyway. Walsh is only with the U.S short time. Not to say that a short time cannot be an effective time.

They would have said the same about Katie, but we all know how that ended

Clarissa had plenty of external shyte too

Joe_ Public

walshb wrote: »

Probably true. She is already a world star anyway. Walsh is only with the U.S short time. Not to say that a short time cannot be an effective time.

Actually, I don't really doubt it, but I still like the story, which I'm sure you're aware of, of how he confronted her about her approach and training methods and eventually they came to a mutual understanding after something of a hostile start. She still had to be managed, star team boxer or not.

To my mind Walsh's talents are still being wildly under-estimated. Nobody's saying Irealnd's Rio performance all boils down to Billy Walsh leaving. At least I'm not saying that anyway. But one team lost a world class coach - although his own association obviously didn't see it that way as there are hardly 20 world class coaches in the country - while another gained one less than a year out from the Games. I believe that had to have a significant impact either way.

Clearlier

Dodge wrote: »

Goof post

Here's our record in world championships in this golden era
2007 - no medals
2009 - one bronze (JJ Nevin is now pro)
2011 - one bronze (JJ Nevin is now pro)
2013 - one silver (Jay quigley is now pro), once bronze (Joe Ward)
2015* - one gold (Conlon), one silver (Ward), one bronze (O'Reilly)

We have OVER performed at Olympic Games with 3 medals in both 2008 and 2012. We've also lost a lot of top class boxers.

Of the 2 world championship medalists we had in Rio, one was unlucky to have 2 points deducted and the other was jobbed. O'Reilly had a great draw but we all know what happened him.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that losing Walsh wasn't an issue but it's way too simplistic to suggest we would have won loads of medals without him

*2015 World Champs were also missing plenty of the APB and WSB boxers that had already qualified for the Olympics.

To me that just emphasises how important Walsh was. Gary Keegan moved on to the institute of sport in autumn 2008 which if I understand correctly would be effectively when Billy took over the role without the title or salary. We immediately started winning medals and increased the number and quality of those medals up to the point where he left and less than a year later results have fallen off a cliff. On the other hand the team that he moved to hadn't won anything in donkey's years but has now started winning since he came on board. Frankly, I think that you have to bury your head in the sand like Fergal Carruth to think that there was no impact.

walshb is of course absolutely correct to say that nobody knows what would have happened had his namesake been around but you can look at what happened when he was around and extrapolate out to what might have happened. Would he have told Katie to adjust her style a little to convince the judges? Would he have got her head in a better place considering all that was going on in her life? Of course we don't know but if you were having a bet on it which way would you go?

walshb

Clearlier wrote: »

To me that just emphasises how important Walsh was. Gary Keegan moved on to the institute of sport in autumn 2008 which if I understand correctly would be effectively when Billy took over the role without the title or salary. We immediately started winning medals and increased the number and quality of those medals up to the point where he left and less than a year later results have fallen off a cliff. On the other hand the team that he moved to hadn't won anything in donkey's years but has now started winning since he came on board. Frankly, I think that you have to bury your head in the sand like Fergal Carruth to think that there was no impact.

walshb is of course absolutely correct to say that nobody knows what would have happened had his namesake been around but you can look at what happened when he was around and extrapolate out to what might have happened. Would he have told Katie to adjust her style a little to convince the judges? Would he have got her head in a better place considering all that was going on in her life? Of course we don't know but if you were having a bet on it which way would you go?

I think a very simple point that needs to be made is that even when we were winning medals with Billy the fights were still very competitive and close.

Analyse both games and you can only see, if you have any knowledge of boxing that some of the fights in Rio were every bit as impressive and worthy of the judges nod than in 2012 and 2008.

It's not like we were dominating or clearly winning medal bouts when Walsh was there. There were close fights and competitive fights

In this tournament we didn't get the judges nod in some very very close fights. For some they are leaning on this as being likely because Walsh was not there. I can't get really behind that.

Katie performed to her very best the other day. She may not be at her peak anymore. I thought she boxed better on Monday than in both her recent losses. I also thought she won 3/4 rds on Monday.

Conlon won his fight for me. Barnes I felt was unlucky not to get the nod. I actually don't want to entertain all that much the weight issue. It's a red herring and an excuse. He passed his medical and made weight and fought like a madman.

Do I believe Billy's presence "may have" helped the guys? Yes.

Clearlier

walshb wrote: »

I think a very simple point that needs to be made is that even when we were winning medals with Billy the fights were still very competitive and close.

Analyse both games and you can only see, if you have any knowledge of boxing that some of the fights in Rio were every bit as impressive and worthy of the judges nod than in 2012 and 2008.

It's not like we were dominating or clearly winning medal bouts when Walsh was there. There were close fights and competitive fights

In this tournament we didn't get the judges nod in some very very close fights. For some they are leaning on this as being likely because Walsh was not there. I can't get really behind that.

Katie performed to her very best the other day. She may not be at her peak anymore. I thought she boxed better on Monday than in both her recent losses. I also thought she won 3/4 rds on Monday.

Conlon won his fight for me. Barnes I felt was unlucky not to get the nod. I actually don't want to entertain all that much the weight issue. It's a red herring and an excuse. He passed his medical and made weight and fought like a madman.

Do I believe Billy's presence "may have" helped the guys? Yes.

I haven't any special insight into how boxing or Billy Walsh work but the fine margins that you talk about that fell our way before but not this time - it was his job to manage those. At elite level in any developed sport it's not about the 1% improvements - it's about the 0.01% improvements. Let enough of them go and that slight edge that you had before is gone.

I don't know details about boxing. All I can look at is results and that makes for pretty bad reading at the moment. Perhaps we'll be back on top come the next world championships and this will just prove to be a blip but given the upturn in US fortunes since Walsh moved over I'm more inclined to think that the loss of Billy Walsh is more important than luck.

flynng

flynng wrote: »

Was looking at the medal table and was wondering the same thing myself. It isn't looking promising. Boxing- possibly but dare not make any predictions such is the poor performances so far. Sailing- possible to pick up two medals here but again no certainties. Showjumping- after todays performance not likely, will be doing well to make the final. Triathlon and Modern Pentathlon- again anything is possible but our athletes are probably hoping for top 10 finishes as realistic aims rather than medals or golds. Athletics- athletes realistically looking for PB's, despite the the media's optimism for Mageean. Hopefully I'll be proven wrong!

God dammit, I was right,not even a sniff of a gold medal! Reckon we need to hire a few Uzbek and Kazakh coaches with an Azeri occupying Billy Walsh's position to have a fighting chance for our boxers in Tokyo! Oh and a German in charge of Equestrian sports and finally an American swimming coach. Roll on Tokyo 2020!

flynng

flynng wrote: »

Was looking at the medal table and was wondering the same thing myself. It isn't looking promising. Boxing- possibly but dare not make any predictions such is the poor performances so far. Sailing- possible to pick up two medals here but again no certainties. Showjumping- after todays performance not likely, will be doing well to make the final. Triathlon and Modern Pentathlon- again anything is possible but our athletes are probably hoping for top 10 finishes as realistic aims rather than medals or golds. Athletics- athletes realistically looking for PB's, despite the the media's optimism for Mageean. Hopefully I'll be proven wrong!

God dammit, I was right,not even a sniff of a gold medal! Reckon we need to hire a few Uzbek and Kazakh coaches with an Azeri occupying Billy Walsh's position to have a fighting chance for our boxers in Tokyo! Oh and a German in charge of Equestrian sports and finally an American swimming coach. Roll on Tokyo 2020!

flynng

flynng wrote: »

Was looking at the medal table and was wondering the same thing myself. It isn't looking promising. Boxing- possibly but dare not make any predictions such is the poor performances so far. Sailing- possible to pick up two medals here but again no certainties. Showjumping- after todays performance not likely, will be doing well to make the final. Triathlon and Modern Pentathlon- again anything is possible but our athletes are probably hoping for top 10 finishes as realistic aims rather than medals or golds. Athletics- athletes realistically looking for PB's, despite the the media's optimism for Mageean. Hopefully I'll be proven wrong!

God dammit, I was right,not even a sniff of a gold medal! Reckon we need to hire a few Uzbek and Kazakh coaches with an Azeri occupying Billy Walsh's position to have a fighting chance for our boxers in Tokyo! Oh and a German in charge of Equestrian sports and finally an American swimming coach. Roll on Tokyo 2020!

Dodge

Poor from Dan to not have the Road to Tokyo thread up IMO

Clearlier

Dodge wrote: »

Poor from Dan to not have the Road to Tokyo thread up IMO

I just want to thank Dan Man and everyone else who contributed to this thread over the last 4 years or so. It's great to hear how Irish people are doing in sports that are not really covered within the mainstream media often with commentary from people who have real insight into what's going on.

finbarrk

I came back from Rio on Saturday. It was a great experience. The people were so friendly and helpful. The only complaint I would have was the long journeys to get to different events. Nice bunch of Irish fans there, we had some great craic.