Letter from hospital - NOPE from boss

DeltaWhite

I have a letter from the hospital saying I have to go for UVB treatment.

It is probably going to be 1 hour, 3 mornings a week for a total of 8 weeks.

Yes, some of you may think it is excessive, but I have excruciating psoriasis which I developed last year, and it has nearly ruined my life. The constant itching does not stop, cracked and bleeding skin that hurts all the time, cant shave legs, barely have a sex life with my OH these days.. so yeah it may be excessive but I need this treatment!

Anywho.. my boss wont let me go as she said it's too excessive... where exactly do I stand with this?? I specifically asked the hospital for a letter saying I need this treatment etc, as I knew my boss would have something to say and she still wont budge.


My very last resort: hand in my notice, go for treatment, look for jobs and claim dole.

Other option: stay working here living a life of hell due to this horrific skin condition.


I am at breaking point, someone please help

GoodisonPark

Option3 - go on the sick and see how he likes that.

dudara

Do you have a HR department that you can speak to?

DeltaWhite

Option3 - go on the sick and see how he likes that.

That is acutally my option 3 haha I probably should have mentioned that.. at least that way I can still look for job and get my treatment.. in this company though, I would be the 4th person to do that in 2 years (they all went on sick and left) just goes to show what kind of place this is!!

Do you have a HR department that you can speak to?
Nope small company and she is the only person I can go to

Mrs OBumble

Call NERA or Citizen's Advice.

Your boss has a surprise coming if she thinks that she is able to determine what medical treatment you require. (If you want to wind her up, tell her that they would like to know where she got her doctor's training.)

OTOH, she will also be able to say that she has to let you go because you are not able to fulfill the terms of your contract. This could be a better option for you, because you will be able to sign for welfare immediately due to not having left voluntarily.

The Big Red Button

I've had this treatment, for psoriasis.

The treatment itself takes max 5-8 minutes, including getting undressed/dressed. So, when you say "an hour", that'll depend on how long it takes you to get to and from the hospital?

Could you arrange that you take this hour instead of your lunch hour? And then take lunch at your desk?

Psoriasis is a condition that you have to learn to live with. Mine is under control at the moment - but, if I ever get treatment for it again, I'll go for UVB rather than steroids. So I'll be working with my employers to minimise the impact on my work, I'll be offering to stay back an hour extra to make up for the time I'm taking for UVB treatment, etc. Are you doing this?

tatli_lokma

chatterpillar wrote: »

Could you arrange that you take this hour instead of your lunch hour? And then take lunch at your desk?

I don't recommend offering to do this, but I do agree that rather than say 'I need this time off' it would be better to go in and say, 'look, this treatment is very necessary to me at the moment, and any improvement in my condition will ultimately improve my ability to work. If I don't get treatment and continue in this sort of pain and discomfort at some point I am going to need real time off work and not just a few hours. But I understand that things need to continue in work so I want to work with you to cause the least amount of disruption'.

From there you can discuss things like making sure your appointments are scheduled for early in the morning so it is at the start of the day. Then you can take a shorter lunch (don't offer to forgo lunch but offer a shorter lunch) and then offer on the other days you will come in 30 mins early until you have made back the time. Or offer to stay 30 mins later on the days you have treatment - this with the shorter lunch would pay back your one hour. Assure her that you will still carry your normal workload and that things won't slip as a result of you attending treatment.

It probably wouldn't go amiss to subtly point out also that stress is a huge contributor to the exaccerbation of psoriasis.

DeltaWhite

Your boss has a surprise coming if she thinks that she is able to determine what medical treatment you require. (If you want to wind her up, tell her that they would like to know where she got her doctor's training.)


You're not the first person to tell me that! My doctor saird the exact same thing!

The treatment itself takes max 5-8 minutes, including getting undressed/dressed. So, when you say "an hour", that'll depend on how long it takes you to get to and from the hospital?

Could you arrange that you take this hour instead of your lunch hour? And then take lunch at your desk?


I would literally only be an hour or less, as the hospital isnt far from my job and I can get the luas back to work which is also very close so it's not as if I would be missing from work for hours! I did offer that but she said it's still very excessive as it goes on for 8 weeks control freak much??

tatli_lokma

DeltaWhite wrote: »

I would literally only be an hour or less, as the hospital isnt far from my job and I can get the luas back to work which is also very close so it's not as if I would be missing from work for hours! I did offer that but she said it's still very excessive as it goes on for 8 weeks control freak much??

Ok, well you need to make sure that you have proof that you are being as reasonable and accommodating as possible. HAve you spoken to her verbally or have there been emails?
If nothing is in writing I would recommend that you now make things more formal. Officially request the time off and in the letter/email make it abundantly clear that you are prepared to work flexibly to ensure the missed hours are made up and that you will continue to maintain your workload. A letter from your GP might also benefit stating that this condition is causing you undue stress and that in his medical opinion UVB treatment will allieviate this and reduce the potential for further time off. And maybe get him to throw in that stress is a contributor to the condition. Workplace stress is a genuine issue so she can't ignore that.

It is a lot harder to say no to something when it is formally put to you like that, as if she were to do so an employment rights commissioner might see her as being unreasonable. So get it in writing.

And off the record I would be asking her which she prefers - flaky skin on the floor and a miserable employee who potentially could need a week off work to receive in-patient treatment or be flexible with a few hours and have a happy and healthy staff member?

What is the air con like in your workplace? any chance it could be making things worse? if so subtly mention that also.

And failing that, literally sit in front of her scratching and whinging about how awful it is EVERY DAY until she gets the message!

Mr. Loverman

GoodisonPark wrote: »

Option3 - go on the sick and see how he likes that.

Bad advice. The OP could get fired. (Companies are allowed fire people for being sick.)

The manager is being a bit insensitive, but she is within her rights to say no.

Good luck OP.

another question

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Bad advice. The OP could get fired. (Companies are allowed fire people for being sick.)

The manager is being a bit insensitive, but she is within her rights to say no.

Good luck OP.

Don't think you are being quite accurate here. I thought this related to employees whose illnesses are determined as 'long-term unable to work' or 'continuously absent for work intermittedly'?. If as another poster suggested that she gets a letter from her doctor (not the hospital alone) citing stress in relation to her workplace environment as contributory to the proposed treatment for a period of 8 weeks, no unfair dismissal case judge would give this company the right to sack her and especially so when she explains that her boss wouldn't give her 3 hours a week for 8 weeks in the first place and as a result of the situation she became increasingly stressed which made her condition deteriorate further.

And OP, do not volunteer to go on your lunch hour, I don't think what you are asking for is excessive, if you are a productive worker in the remainder of your day and feel you are valued then maybe you should remind her of this. What is it with female bosses anyway:rolleyes:

Mr. Loverman

another question wrote: »

Don't think you are being quite accurate here. I thought this related to employees whose illnesses are determined as 'long-term unable to work' or 'continuously absent for work intermittedly'?. If as another poster suggested that she gets a letter from her doctor (not the hospital alone) citing stress in relation to her workplace environment as contributory to the proposed treatment for a period of 8 weeks, no unfair dismissal case judge would give this company the right to sack her and especially so when she explains that her boss wouldn't give her 3 hours a week for 8 weeks in the first place and as a result of the situation she became increasingly stressed which made her condition deteriorate further.

You're talking about the OP lying to her manager -- she pretends she is unable to work due to stress -- and then she has to lie to a judge when the case goes before the unfair dismissals court.

You really think that is good advice?

The reality is this: if the OP decides to not turn up for work during her treatment, she can be fired. Either because a) companies can fire employees for being sick or (more likely) b) gross misconduct for going against her manager's wishes.

Have a look at this link: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/unemployment_and_redundancy/dismissal/fair_grounds_for_dismissal.html

Fair grounds for dismissal: Your employer could give one or more of the following reasons for your dismissal: lateness, absenteeism and persistent absence through illness or injury, either short-term or long-term.

Mr. Loverman

another question wrote: »

What is it with female bosses anyway:rolleyes:

This issue has nothing to do with the manager's gender...

another question

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

This issue has nothing to do with the manager's gender...

How do you know?

Mr. Loverman

another question wrote: »

How do you know?

I'm not sexist?

tatli_lokma

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

You're talking about the OP lying to her manager -- she pretends she is unable to work due to stress -- and then she has to lie to a judge when the case goes before the unfair dismissals court.

You really think that is good advice?

But it is not lying is it? OP says that she/he is at "breaking point" and that her working life could be made hell if she does not receive treatment and has to continue working. Now if this stress is genuine, and from the post it appears to be, it is being exaccerbated by her working environment. So OP does not need to lie about this. In front of an employment rights commissioner or judge if the OP explained and had proof that she/he was willing to be flexible, that this was for a short term period and that medical professionals agreed that such short term treatment would improve her quality of life then the OP would have strong case and an employer who could not prove that they made reasonable allowances would have a very weak case. Commissioners and Judges don't like to see people loosing jobs due to unreasonable behaviour on the part of the employer, particularly in the current climate.

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

This issue has nothing to do with the manager's gender...

Agree 100%.

another question

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

I'm not sexist?

Neither am I! Unforntunately not all bosses were created equal and it sounds like this one doesn't want her employee to be happier, healthier and feel better about herself. She wants to be bloody awkward, not give her the time off and leave her feeling miserable and unhappy. Obviously this makes the boss feel better about herself. Sounds like a little bit of the green eyed monster to me. I'm female and have had a lot of female bosses, it's amazing how women's minds work....'In my opinion' if her boss was male I would say she would have a significantly greater chance of being aloud the time off.

Mr. Loverman

Little Ted wrote: »

But it is not lying is it? OP says that she/he is at "breaking point" and that her working life could be made hell if she does not receive treatment and has to continue working. Now if this stress is genuine, and from the post it appears to be, it is being exaccerbated by her working environment. So OP does not need to lie about this. In front of an employment rights commissioner or judge if the OP explained and had proof that she/he was willing to be flexible, that this was for a short term period and that medical professionals agreed that such short term treatment would improve her quality of life then the OP would have strong case and an employer who could not prove that they made reasonable allowances would have a very weak case. Commissioners and Judges don't like to see people loosing jobs due to unreasonable behaviour on the part of the employer, particularly in the current climate.

She is only going off sick due to stress so she can get her treatment. It is lying.

Regardless, I don't want to argue with you. We've both made our points.

another question

Anyway, this is going off topic, OP I would suggest going for the treatment anyway...with or without her consent, get your doctor to do what he/she can for you in terms of a letter. If your willing as you state in your original posting to give up the job and look for a job/claim dole then take the chance. You health, happiness and wellbeing are alot more important than that sad woman you work for.

tatli_lokma

another question wrote: »

How do you know?

because being a good manager/bad manager is not dependent upon your gender. Bad managers come in all shapes sizes, ages, nationalities etc etc. Not knowing how to deal with people is not a purely male or female issue. Some women are bitches, some bitches are managers therefore all female managers are bitches??? surely not
Some managers are crap, its as simple as that.

tatli_lokma

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

She is only going off sick due to stress so she can get her treatment. It is lying.

Regardless, I don't want to argue with you. We've both made our points.

I never said 'go off sick due to stress'. I said, make your employer aware that their inflexibility is contributing to their stress. If the employee then felt that they had no option but to resign (which OP states they are contemplating) it could be classed as constructive dismissal, as had a total of 24 hours over 8 weeks been given (and taking into account that OP would offer to make up these hours so was not absent as such) then the OP would still be a productive employee. That would not reflect well on an employee.

Perhaps manager is trying to manage you out? if so, they better be doing it by the book. Hence why it is so important for OP to get everything on the record.

Mr. Loverman

I posted a link earlier which shows it would not be constructive dismissal. Regardless, I have been using forums long enough to know nothing I say will change your mind (how often do you see people admit they are wrong on forums? ) so I am bowing out now.

OP: Please speak to a solicitor before you take advice from people saying you have a case for constructive dismissal.

DeltaWhite

And OP, do not volunteer to go on your lunch hour, I don't think what you are asking for is excessive, if you are a productive worker in the remainder of your day and feel you are valued then maybe you should remind her of this. What is it with female bosses anyway

I don’t mean to blow my own trumpet, but I am a great worker, I do all work given to me without question, NEVER been late once in the 3 years I’ve worked there, 2 sick days this year. All clients love me etc.. IMO I have done nothing but the best for them and this is how I’m repaid?

But it is not lying is it? OP says that she/he is at "breaking point" and that her working life could be made hell if she does not receive treatment and has to continue working. Now if this stress is genuine, and from the post it appears to be, it is being exaccerbated by her working environment. So OP does not need to lie about this. In front of an employment rights commissioner or judge if the OP explained and had proof that she/he was willing to be flexible, that this was for a short term period and that medical professionals agreed that such short term treatment would improve her quality of life then the OP would have strong case and an employer who could not prove that they made reasonable allowances would have a very weak case. Commissioners and Judges don't like to see people loosing jobs due to unreasonable behaviour on the part of the employer, particularly in the current climate.

Literally couldn’t have put it better myself! TBH the thought of court scares the sh*t out of me, but if things keep going as they are – no other option! I have already kept records of all conversations with her just in case it ever comes to that! Which I hope it doesn’t!!

Perhaps manager is trying to manage you out? if so, they better be doing it by the book. Hence why it is so important for OP to get everything on the record.

This is definitely a possibility, the last 2 girls that were in this office were pushed to point of breakdown and have left. So I am now alone with all male employees and this “tyrant” boss 


Please speak to a solicitor before you take advice from people saying you have a case for constructive dismissal.

It will be the first thing I do should this all turn even more sour! Many MANY thanks for all the help everyone!


I have to say, I really do feel a lot better from all posters and their advice! This morning, I had a bit of a breakdown at the thought of coming into work and suffering mind bending itchiness for yet again another 8 hours... I was in a right state but I pulled myself together, came into work and was feeling miserable. So I decided to take back my life and I rang the hospital, told them to keep me on the waiting list, and when the time comes where an appointment is available, I am going straight into my boss and telling her I'm going - she can sack me if she wants that's fine. Unfair dismissal it is!

Another example of this behaviour - I had 3 hospital appointments last year for potential breast cancer (really stressful time for me) and I was literally maybe an hour or more at each appointment - which I worked up, I stayed back late and worked through lunch and on my 3rd and final time which was to find out if the lumps were benign or not I went in to tell her the time of my appointment and she said the following:

(Exasperated sigh) "are you nearly done with all this? How long are these appointments going to go on for?"

Now I'm sorry but that is an absolute disgrace, at the time I was friendly with her so I would have told her how worried I was etc.. she knew what the appointments were for and she still had the cheek to question me like that! thankfully they were benign BTW..

Indo404

DeltaWhite wrote: »

I have a letter from the hospital saying I have to go for UVB treatment.

It is probably going to be 1 hour, 3 mornings a week for a total of 8 weeks.

Hmm, in other countries you can have treatment outside office hours. But I'm afraid that this is not an option?

tatli_lokma

Indo404 wrote: »

DeltaWhite wrote: »

I have a letter from the hospital saying I have to go for UVB treatment.

It is probably going to be 1 hour, 3 mornings a week for a total of 8 weeks.

Hmm, in other countries you can have treatment outside office hours. But I'm afraid that this is not an option?

Generally if you are receiving treatment in a public hospital as a public patient, then no it is not usually an option. Most hospital appointment systems work Mon-Fri 9-4pm

DeltaWhite

Indo404 wrote: »

DeltaWhite wrote: »

I have a letter from the hospital saying I have to go for UVB treatment.

It is probably going to be 1 hour, 3 mornings a week for a total of 8 weeks.

Hmm, in other countries you can have treatment outside office hours. But I'm afraid that this is not an option?

Unfortunately the treatment service runs Monday - Friday from 8.30am - 12.30pm so I have no other option! I start work at 8.30 so I would definitely be missing for a short period of the morning which to me, is not a big deal but obviously is a big deal to my boss...

tatli_lokma

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

I posted a link earlier which shows it would not be constructive dismissal. Regardless, I have been using forums long enough to know nothing I say will change your mind (how often do you see people admit they are wrong on forums? ) so I am bowing out now.

OP: Please speak to a solicitor before you take advice from people saying you have a case for constructive dismissal.

Oh I do accept that constructive dismissal is not a black and white issue and there are no guarantees and absolutely that OP should seek legal advice if thinking of going this route. However, even the link you posted does indicate that even if sacked for being out on short term sick leave that there are still considerations the employer must make and in general must appear to be fair and reasonable. All I am pointing out is that OP should play the manager at her own game, and ensure that OP is reasonable and flexible and can prove this in writing.

I know that in our company we are always conscious of making sure we are acting in a reasonable manner and have plenty of documentation to back everything up - even in cases where it might seem cut and dried in our favour. At many employment law seminars and training courses I have been on it has been drilled into us that as an employer you must at all times be seen to be fair and reasonable and that even if you go by the book if a rights commissioner feels you were unreasonable or unfair then there is a good chance it will go against you. (And lets be honest 'reasonable' and 'fair' are vague terms open to interpretation of the commissioner, so it is always a case of roll the dice, take your chances).

So with all this in mind I think it would be prudent of OP to firmly but professionally make sure that the employer is aware of possible ramifications of not being reasonable to her request and that OP ensures that all her ducks are in a line 'just in case' it comes to that. As I said before, generally when faced with formal requests, an employer will then realise that the employee has done some homework on this and is less likely to carte blanche dismiss them without even considering their request. At least if they have any sense.

OP - I am glad to hear you are taking back control. Sometimes bad managers prey on the best workers and the most accommodating employees. If you make it easy for them they will do it all the more. You are not being unreasonable, and you appear to be a decent person who is not deliberately looking to take advantage and with this in mind you need to stand up for yourself. Sometimes if you put it up to the manager they will back down. And in pressing your point you will be making sure they know that just because you are a good and accommodting employee you are not prepared to be taken advantage of.

I know exactly the type of manager you are describing - I think I worked for her! lol She would be a bit catty and unsympathetic about these types of issues. You would literally dread having to tell her you needed time off for scheduled appointments. Then this same manager had a serious health scare and was very sick for a while - they very quickly got a whole new perspective on the issue of sick leave.

DeltaWhite

Little Ted wrote: »

Oh I do accept that constructive dismissal is not a black and white issue and there are no guarantees and absolutely that OP should seek legal advice if thinking of going this route. However, even the link you posted does indicate that even if sacked for being out on short term sick leave that there are still considerations the employer must make and in general must appear to be fair and reasonable. All I am pointing out is that OP should play the manager at her own game, and ensure that OP is reasonable and flexible and can prove this in writing.

I know that in our company we are always conscious of making sure we are acting in a reasonable manner and have plenty of documentation to back everything up - even in cases where it might seem cut and dried in our favour. At many employment law seminars and training courses I have been on it has been drilled into us that as an employer you must at all times be seen to be fair and reasonable and that even if you go by the book if a rights commissioner feels you were unreasonable or unfair then there is a good chance it will go against you. (And lets be honest 'reasonable' and 'fair' are vague terms open to interpretation of the commissioner, so it is always a case of roll the dice, take your chances).

So with all this in mind I think it would be prudent of OP to firmly but professionally make sure that the employer is aware of possible ramifications of not being reasonable to her request and that OP ensures that all her ducks are in a line 'just in case' it comes to that. As I said before, generally when faced with formal requests, an employer will then realise that the employee has done some homework on this and is less likely to carte blanche dismiss them without even considering their request. At least if they have any sense.

OP - I am glad to hear you are taking back control. Sometimes bad managers prey on the best workers and the most accommodating employees. If you make it easy for them they will do it all the more. You are not being unreasonable, and you appear to be a decent person who is not deliberately looking to take advantage and with this in mind you need to stand up for yourself. Sometimes if you put it up to the manager they will back down. And in pressing your point you will be making sure they know that just because you are a good and accommodting employee you are not prepared to be taken advantage of.

I know exactly the type of manager you are describing - I think I worked for her! lol She would be a bit catty and unsympathetic about these types of issues. You would literally dread having to tell her you needed time off for scheduled appointments. Then this same manager had a serious health scare and was very sick for a while - they very quickly got a whole new perspective on the issue of sick leave.

Really helps me feel better when people can see where I'm coming from! I feel loads better just from this thread I started..
Yep, you got it in one! My problem is that I am too nice and I wont stand up for myself for fear of repercussions but I cant live my whole life like that! So hence why I decided today to take back my life and not take sh*t from her anymore! Being a doormat sucks bigtime

username123

I take it youre not in a Union OP?

Definitely call NERA and ask for some advice.

I think that your manager is acting in a very irresponsible manner and ask yourself this - if she dismissed you as a result of this and you took her to court for unfair dismissal, how much sympathy do you think a judge would give a manager who refused an employee medical treatment against the advice of her GP and various specialists?

IMO you are entirely approaching this the wrong way, I would not be 'asking' this manager for the time off, I would be informing her I am attending necessary hospital appointment at such and such a time on such and such a date, end of. And let her make of it what she will because legally, she is on shaky ground to refuse you.

Another question is this, can you go above her?

At the end of the day you are facing the dilemma of your health versus your job - in my world that would be an absolute no contest, health wins every time.

DeltaWhite

username123 wrote: »

I take it youre not in a Union OP?

Definitely call NERA and ask for some advice.

I think that your manager is acting in a very irresponsible manner and ask yourself this - if she dismissed you as a result of this and you took her to court for unfair dismissal, how much sympathy do you think a judge would give a manager who refused an employee medical treatment against the advice of her GP and various specialists?

IMO you are entirely approaching this the wrong way, I would not be 'asking' this manager for the time off, I would be informing her I am attending necessary hospital appointment at such and such a time on such and such a date, end of. And let her make of it what she will because legally, she is on shaky ground to refuse you.

Another question is this, can you go above her?

At the end of the day you are facing the dilemma of your health versus your job - in my world that would be an absolute no contest, health wins every time.

Nope not in a Union!
I totally agree with you as of today I am literally not going to take no for an answer! I am planning to go in with specific appointment time and date and just tell her that's whats happening! Simple as, I have just hit breaking point and I cant keep living like this so I have to take the bull by the horns in fairness I think shes clever enough to know the legal hassle she will bring on herself if she sacked me over it!!

Unfortunately she owns this company so there is nobody else to go to!
A few people have said to speak to NERA so I think I will ring just to see where I stand!

username123

DeltaWhite wrote: »

A few people have said to speak to NERA so I think I will ring just to see where I stand!

Definitely do this!!!