Why is DTT so crap in ireland?

Donkey baby

Apart from 3e which is just wall to wall repeats of family guy and cold case there is nothing new whatsoever on saorview. RTE junior is just a relay of RTE 2 during the day and unlike in the uk where bbc 1/2 will cease showing childrens programs there seems to be no plans to remove childrens programs from from RTE 2. Nobody wants to watch RTE one an hour behind in the evenings, who wants to see winning streak twice in one night?.

The Cush

Donkey baby wrote: »

Nobody wants to watch RTE one an hour behind in the evenings, who wants to see winning streak twice in one night?.

I thought the same before it was made available but I have used it, not for Winning Streak, but for other programmes if there was a clash with something else.

Sponge Bob

Donkey baby wrote: »

Apart from 3e which is just wall to wall repeats of family guy and cold case there is nothing new whatsoever on saorview.

So "wall to wall repeats" are "new" are they??

watty

DTT is simply a replacement of Analogue so the Government can raise money (once off) selling off TV spectrum for a pointless mobile system of little value to consumers, operators or the country in the future.

lawhec

Donkey baby wrote: »

Apart from 3e which is just wall to wall repeats of family guy and cold case there is nothing new whatsoever on saorview. RTE junior is just a relay of RTE 2 during the day and unlike in the uk where bbc 1/2 will cease showing childrens programs there seems to be no plans to remove childrens programs from from RTE 2. Nobody wants to watch RTE one an hour behind in the evenings, who wants to see winning streak twice in one night?.

It's been said before over and over again on the Cable & Digital section why there's not a huge amount of extra content on DTT in Ireland - size of relative markets for broadcasters, costs for broadcasters to appear on the platform, channels from neighbouring UK market gaining significant shares in multi-channel homes, only a small percentage of homes in the state rely on terrestrial television, not to mention regulatory issues and objections/complaints from certain broadcasters that keep running to Comreg.

If Ireland did not have a large neighbour right beside it that spoke a common language between almost all of the two country's peoples, and that many Irish people did not seek to get channels that are licenced and broadcast from that neighbouring country, then Ireland could have the chance of getting a small free-to-air multichannel platform of its own established on a digital terrestrial platform with its own home-based broadcasters - a bit like New Zealand though that's not the greatest of examples as TV in NZ is a bit ****e to put it mildly - but Ireland doesn't have such a scenario forthcoming so it isn't going to happen. The only thing that can see expansion is programming focusing on local content that outsiders can't or won't provide. But even then the scope for this is limited and in many cases unviable especially considering the costs involved with Saorview (unless you were to have transmission only in a part of the country).

formerly scottish paddy

The thing to remember about a DTT network is that it provides a platform that in the future can easily add channels, unlike an analogue system.
RTE have already indicated that they are "repositioning" RTE NL, which to you and me means they will eventually sell it off. The Saorview platform will then be an independent entity which will be out to encourage expansion. So who knows what may come along in the future, and we certainly have had plenty of speculation on this forum. For instance the addition of international news channels is something which may be feasible. Of course all this will be down to resources and to judge the worth of the entire project in the midst of a severe recession is a bit unfair. To be honest it is a wonder that we have been able to build this at all in the present circumstances!

griffdaddy

Any chance of getting paid DTT services in here like they have in the Netherlands? One good thing about them was that they were extremely affordable, about 13 euro a month, and also could be installed easily by the user, as well as easily transported if you wanted to bring it to a friends house

watty

None.

It's never going to be viable.


Technically RTENL has been "For sale" since about 2001. Separation from RTE and lumping it with stuff separated from ESB and Bord Gais and in a "group" with eNet etc might make sense. But privatising to Arquiva or similar like BBC & IBA did in UK makes no sense for Ireland.

The Cush

griffdaddy wrote: »

Any chance of getting paid DTT services in here like they have in the Netherlands?

This is the BAI's current position on pay DTT

The Authority now considers that it will not be feasible to introduce commercial DTT as originally intended until after Analogue Switch Off (ASO) at the earliest. The position will be reviewed towards the end of 2011 and the Authority may seek expressions of interest in the provision of commercial DTT at that point. A competition could potentially be held during 2012 with a view to commercial DTT being operational in 2013.

http://www.bai.ie/?page_id=82

watty

BAI is still eating magic mushrooms if they think ASO makes any difference. It has strengthened SKY & UPC.

Capt'n Midnight

griffdaddy wrote: »

Any chance of getting paid DTT services in here like they have in the Netherlands? One good thing about them was that they were extremely affordable, about 13 euro a month, and also could be installed easily by the user, as well as easily transported if you wanted to bring it to a friends house

Remember On Digital ?

perhaps something like topuptv ?

But the market here is saturated, we've had cable forever with UK channels in the main population centres, and until very recently legal and illegal retransmitters. If you wanted UK TV you'd have got it by now.

And SKY / UPC will kick you to death unless you have deeper pockets than they do. And you have to pay the UK rights holders. And most of the channels people want can be received FTA from satellite for less than you can charge per year.

mrdtv2010

watty wrote: »

BAI is still eating magic mushrooms if they think ASO makes any difference. It has strengthened SKY & UPC.

Actually it will strengthen Freesat and overspill Freeview (where available) once people realise, in spades, they don't have to pay to see UK channels. The disinformation in the Republic of Ireland is chronic and is aided by poor messaging and decision making on the part of the authorities and regulatory agencies in Ireland:

1. RTE should have negotiated a Freesat from Sky Ireland offer like the BBC did all those years ago (Saorsat is a toy for anoraks). End of coverage problem, on standard EU equipment.

2 Use of different standards from the UK, motivated by the usual ourselves alone strategy, has come home to bite RTENL straight in the posterior. As before. Now everybody is going to get Freeview HD systems in the overspill areas as this is the only system that does it all: Saorview,Freeview, NIMM, Freeview HD, etc. (there is a fantastic new slide on ukfree.tv which makes that so clear. Link: http://www.ukfree.tv/fullstory.php?storyid=1107052034)

3. I predict MHEG will be ditched in the UK as they move to IP based DTT systems. Its so old fashioned now when you look at the YouView system: its a 1998 digital remaster of teletext with some retro appeal.

4. The failure to establish an Irish DTT platform for a decade, the flirtation with pay-tv, and the endless pussyfooting with standards and business models is a tragedy.

5. Software development of systems depends on addressable markets: these have to be big. This is why Panasonic can't be bothered with Ireland and series link is still in the future on Saorview.

Fortunately markets have a habit of sorting these matters out:

a) In the overspill areas I predict Freeview HD will sweep the board, starting next Wednesday.

b) Elsewhere the best solution is undoubtedly a Saorview TV + Freesat box until FreeviewHD/Freesat HD Tv's with Saorview approval become very affordable.


Game over for the combo boxes and a gradual attrition of Sky and UPC subscriptions.

formerly scottish paddy

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

In the overspill areas I predict Freeview HD will sweep the board, starting next Wednesday.

I don't think so, most people will be happy enough to go out and get a Saorview box which will also give them Freeview SD. Believe me ordinary people are not as worked up about HD as the people on these forums.
There are complaints in N. Ireland over Saorview being MPEG 4 and because the NIMM is on DVB-T2, since "no one has Freeview HD", also, in Scotland Freeview HD viewers still make up less than 2% of the tv audience!

mrdtv2010

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

2 Use of different standards from the UK, motivated by the usual ourselves alone strategy, has come home to bite RTENL straight in the posterior. As before. Now everybody is going to get Freeview HD systems in the overspill areas as this is the only system that does it all: Saorview,Freeview, NIMM, Freeview HD, etc. (there is a fantastic new slide on ukfree.tv which makes that so clear. Link: http://www.ukfree.tv/fullstory.php?storyid=1107052034

Are you suggesting that we should have used MPEG-2 just because the UK do? I can never agree with this under any circumstance. Maybe if we rolled out our DTT network in 1998, not 2008.

mrdtv2010

Karsini wrote: »

Are you suggesting that we should have used MPEG-2 just because the UK do? I can never agree with this under any circumstance. Maybe if we rolled out our DTT network in 1998, not 2008.

No, but they wasted ten years talking about DTT. Now they have been leapfrogged: in 2010 the T2 adapter was £179, now its £32.99. Says it all...

formerly scottish paddy

Karsini wrote: »

Are you suggesting that we should have used MPEG-2 just because the UK do? I can never agree with this under any circumstance. Maybe if we rolled out our DTT network in 1998, not 2008.

Yea, it's the old 405/625 argument all over again (history does repeat its self)
Then, it was lets use 405 lines like the UK. Fortunately we went with 625 (which we still have until the 24th) and then had the UK convert to the same, years later. Remember DVB-T2 becomes part of the Saorview (Nordig spec) from the beginning of 2013 so newer Saorview boxes will do T2.

sesswhat

formerly scottish paddy wrote: »

Remember DVB-T2 becomes part of the Saorview (Nordig spec) from the beginning of 2013 so newer Saorview boxes will do T2.

Two and a half years late but better late than never.

Sponge Bob

I'd say the software will improve steadily in the myriad Vestel badged T2 boxes out there and that a Freeview HD box will happily work as a combined Freeview HD/Saorview box or as a Saorview box and by 2014 or so. I largely agree with Mrdtvs post and am not minded to quibble too strongly with the bits I don't fully agree with.

If TV3 don't stop playing their normal silly buggers I would strongly consider rebroadcasting BBC1 and BBC News 24 on Saorsat to use up the extra space that is contracted for and in order to comply with the spirit of the MoU.

lawhec

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

1. RTE should have negotiated a Freesat from Sky Ireland offer like the BBC did all those years ago (Saorsat is a toy for anoraks). End of coverage problem, on standard EU equipment.

TV and Radio broadcasts on Saorsat, within the area served, can be viewed on any DVB-S2 generic receiver the same way any DVB-T receiver with MPEG4 AVC HD reception capability can view TV and listen to radio broadcasts on Saorview. The only significant piece of hardware different to the European norm of satellite TV reception is the Ka Band TVRO LNB.

Tie in a deal with Freesat from Sky, and you are restricted to receiving the service using a Sky receiver.

The BBC have never been part of Freesat from Sky (that brand name for launch was several years after the BBC ended Videoguard encryption at 28.2 East), nor under the old Solas card scheme did Sky make any real effort to publicise that service - understandably so as they're more concerned about getting subscribers and a high ARPU. Word of the scheme was relayed more by word-of-mouth than anything else - Sky buried the details in the small print and the BBC themselves didn't do much more to tell viewers.

RTÉ also doesn't have the same leverage against Sky that the BBC does - it cannot threaten to broadcast FTA on Astra even if they weren't broke, like the BBC eventually did after their initial encryption contract ended and Astra 2D enabled them to broadcast with less overspill into the European mainland.

Saorsat might in some ways be "a toy for anoraks", but it is intended as a last-resort measure of free-to-air RTÉ TV reception anyway.

watty

1. RTE should have negotiated a Freesat from Sky Ireland offer like the BBC did all those years ago (Saorsat is a toy for anoraks). End of coverage problem, on standard EU equipment.

Madly expensive and impractical. BBC simply paid through the nose and ditched horrendously expensive sky encryption as fast as possible. ITV, C4 and Five have followed.

Was never in the running as a solution. Also RTENL would be paying for Saorsat ANYWAY TOO. BBC & Five use other satellites to feed TX sites. Sky box is a proprietary closed solution that is crippled at moments notice by Sky even though the viewer owns the box.

Even if Sky was an affordable solution it would be stupid to be locked into that.


Also it's a fallacy that a card limits geographic coverage. With Pay TV it actually doesn't matter as the content is paid for. With FTV, a market in "grey" cards in the UK would be a disaster.

Any Reputable Satellite dish installer can install Saorsat and as a minimum any Generic DVB-S2 HD satellite Receiver, though if it has CI+ it will do the MHEG5. PVR also without a Sub (not true with Sky).

It's also DTT Site feed back up. It's no more an Anorak toy than Freesat in Ireland.

Yes the LNBF is €30 more. But on top of Install, dish, Set-box and TV and on going annual TV Licence it's a once off cost of about 5% more vs Freesat install.

Solair

It's mostly down to the fact that Ireland has vastly higher cable and satellite penetration levels than the UK and most of the rest of Europe (except Belgium and the Netherlands where most people also have cable).

The uptake of pay-tv in Ireland came about because of lack of choice on terrestrial TV here i.e. only RTE content for years and proximity to a much bigger market.

Belgium's similar where a lot of people watch French or Dutch TV (depending on their language) from France or NL on cable.

EU law mandated a switchover to DTT, and all countries have to make it by Oct 2012. Most EU countries already cut over to DTT several years ago, Ireland and the UK are amongst the last in the EU to pull the plug on analogue. Canada switches it off in 2012 too and American NTSC analogue broadcasts already switched off.

All SaorView is (as pointed out above) is a replacement for analogue PAL services. It's quite honestly unlikely to morph into something else.
The market doesn't exist for it. We had several commercial entities look at launching and it just never happened.

It could possibly have been used as a replacement for digital MMDS, but it wouldn't really have sufficient multiplexes available to provide an ex-MMDS operator with enough capacity to provide a viable service either.

So, really it is what it is - a basic free-to-air terrestrial TV system using DVB-T instead of PAL that you can pick up all over the country.

dxhound2005

Donkey baby wrote: »

Apart from 3e which is just wall to wall repeats of family guy and cold case there is nothing new whatsoever on saorview. RTE junior is just a relay of RTE 2 during the day and unlike in the uk where bbc 1/2 will cease showing childrens programs there seems to be no plans to remove childrens programs from from RTE 2. Nobody wants to watch RTE one an hour behind in the evenings, who wants to see winning streak twice in one night?.

Somebody must want to watch RTE One +1 otherwise it would be pointless having it on the air. We might get Oireachtas TV at some stage in the future, something to look forward to. There is plenty of choice in this country and people can choose to watch whatever they want or switch off.

When DSO in the North is covered on Radio Ulster etc one of the most asked questions is about RTE reception after the changeover. I notice the same phenomenon in the UK with people there complaining about the BBC but the ones that become expats in Spain or wherever go to great lenghts to get UK TV.

areyawell

watty wrote: »

DTT is simply a replacement of Analogue so the Government can raise money (once off) selling off TV spectrum for a pointless mobile system of little value to consumers, operators or the country in the future.

Ah what? Digital picture is completely clear unlike crappy analogue. Have you watched sports on RTE2 HD in high definition on a high definition TV? Its brilleant for sporting events. Picture is quality!!

lertsnim

You think it is not a direct replacement for analogue?

More Music

dxhound2005 wrote: »

When DSO in the North is covered on Radio Ulster etc one of the most asked questions is about RTE reception after the changeover. I notice the same phenomenon in the UK with people there complaining about the BBC but the ones that become expats in Spain or wherever go to great lenghts to get UK TV.

A well known fact. Some people think the grass is always greener on the other side. It annoys me.

We get the same comments about radio here. But I occasionally get emails from people from Germany, England and the USA thinking Irish radio is the best thing ever. They would have tuned in while here on holidays and now listen online to Irish radio stations.

Capt'n Midnight

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

1. RTE should have negotiated a Freesat from Sky Ireland offer like the BBC did all those years ago (Saorsat is a toy for anoraks). End of coverage problem, on standard EU equipment.

'FreeSat' from SKY does not use standard EU equipment, it requires a SKY box and a SKY card, "and would sir like to upgrade to a full package" IIRC To get any number on SKY EPG was £30,000 a year to get a good number was a lot more. ( FTV channels )
Locked into SKY - other channels is pain.

Freesat , BBC/ITV again uses a non standard box , otherwise you don't get the EPG , but like the SKY box it re-tunes itself and just works. Before freesat SKY used to stiff people £15 for the FTV cards.


The bit you are getting confused with is that because it's cheaper to pay for broadcast rights to the satellite footprint overspill here and on the continent than for encryption the UK terresterial channels transmit free to air.

In short the only reason you can get UK channels on a EU standard box is because of historical costs and satellite footprint. Be glad.

2 Use of different standards from the UK, motivated by the usual ourselves alone strategy, has come home to bite RTENL straight in the posterior.

Yeah it would have been nice if the UK had launched a compatible HD system earlier. Most if not all the countries than launched an MPEG2 system are bringing in an MPEG4 HD one now. We went with the Nordic one. - Pity that wasn't shouted from the hills as there are a lot of well respected Scandanavian brand names.

3. I predict MHEG will be ditched in the UK as they move to IP based DTT systems. Its so old fashioned now when you look at the YouView system: its a 1998 digital remaster of teletext with some retro appeal.

IP means you need broadband doesn't it ?
(yes RTE did have a WINDS dream with set top box transmitting requests back at a low baud rate

4. The failure to establish an Irish DTT platform for a decade, the flirtation with pay-tv, and the endless pussyfooting with standards and business models is a tragedy.

well as long as the expense accounts and constultants got paid ..


Reminds me of when UPC were told to roll out digital TV instead of broadband. Years more of paying eircom per minute :mad:


[quoteb) Elsewhere the best solution is undoubtedly a Saorview TV + Freesat box until FreeviewHD/Freesat HD Tv's with Saorview approval become very affordable.[/quote]Second hand Sky box and ask for a Setanta card and approved Saorview box. Both update themselves, channel list, EPG, program guides etc.


Look into combo box / PVR / TV with T2 tuner next year when the dust settles, get a USB card for €8 'till then :pac:
You can then use the saoview box as a recorder or for the spare room

If you have broadband for your EPG and text and like tinkering then consider a Ferguson Ariva 150 - you can get them for less than €95


Replace the TV when you need to. Most set top boxes have volume control and most flat screen TV's are to thin to have great sound , so by the time you put the sound in to HiFi it might as well be a monitor for some people.

Game over for the combo boxes and a gradual attrition of Sky and UPC subscriptions.

nah
if you want Sport , Movies, kids channels, Discovery you get subscription channels. TBH netflix and downloads are probably a bigger threat to SKY/UPC than FTA channels. People cancelling UPC TV and switching to UPC broadband is probably revenue neutral since UPC would pass on most of the subscriptions anyway.

Elmo

Thread on Saorview Content Speculation may also answer this question

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055935335

The ineptitude of RTÉ, TV3, TG4, BAI, the Department of Communications (DCERN), IFB/BSÉ (the film board) and the House of the Oireachtas.

watty

People had BBC in some areas for over 12 years I think before RTE TV and ITV for about 7 years before RTE TV. They discussed TV license here in 1950s and it did come in before RTE TV started!

UTV + HTV was over 85% of households before Sky Digital.

Possibly the only reason RTE TV was started was to justify the TV licence?

mrdtv2010

watty wrote: »

People had BBC in some areas for over 12 years I think before RTE TV and ITV for about 7 years before RTE TV. They discussed TV license here in 1950s and it did come in before RTE TV started!

UTV + HTV was over 85% of households before Sky Digital.

Possibly the only reason RTE TV was started was to justify the TV licence?

Yes,BBC Glencairn (prior to Divis) started in 1952 and IIRC Divis started in 1953. UTV started in 1959, I think TWW (predecessor to HTV) may have started a bit earlier, with RTE in 1961. I think RTE was started to provide an independent Irish PSB countering the BBC. And next week 51 years later RTE will finally be broadcast from the transmitters in Belfast, using the very latest technology.

Solair

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

Yes,BBC Glencairn (prior to Divis) started in 1952 and IIRC Divis started in 1953. UTV started in 1959, I think TWW (predecessor to HTV) may have started a bit earlier, with RTE in 1961. I think RTE was started to provide an independent Irish PSB countering the BBC. And next week 51 years later RTE will finally be broadcast from the transmitters in Belfast, using the very latest technology.

It's a shame that BBC NI and UTV aren't on SaorView though as a mutual swap.

formerly scottish paddy

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

Yes,BBC Glencairn (prior to Divis) started in 1952 and IIRC Divis started in 1953. UTV started in 1959, I think TWW (predecessor to HTV) may have started a bit earlier, with RTE in 1961. I think RTE was started to provide an independent Irish PSB countering the BBC. And next week 51 years later RTE will finally be broadcast from the transmitters in Belfast, using the very latest technology.

Glencairn (temporary, low power) started on the 1st May 1953 and Divis on 21st July 1955, and I doubt if you could have received Glencairn in the republic.
Besides how many people could have afforded a television set in 1950's Ireland?

mrdtv2010

formerly scottish paddy wrote: »

Glencairn (temporary, low power) started on the 1st May 1953 and Divis on 21st July 1955, and I doubt if you could have received Glencairn in the republic.
Besides how many people could have afforded a television set in 1950's Ireland?

Good homework, but I think Richard Logue's site essays all of this. Divis was easily received in the Republic as it was B1.

formerly scottish paddy

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

Good homework, but I think Richard Logue's site essays all of this. Divis was easily received in the Republic as it was B1.

Yes Divis was but I doubt Glencairn was.

Hotblack Desiato

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

Good homework, but I think Richard Logue's site essays all of this.

http://www.irish-tv.com/hist50s.asp

Yeah it says Holme Moss opened in 1951 and was just about receiveable in Dublin.

watty

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

...with RTE in 1961.

Essentially 1962 as wasn't it 31st December 1961? When was full coverage achieved? (OK, apart from May 2011 )

Besides how many people could have afforded a television set in 1950's Ireland?

Enough in Dublin that masts were a hazard and there were several debates about TV licences in 1950s.

I first visited Dublin in 1966. It was an amazing sight!

formerly scottish paddy

watty wrote: »

When was full coverage achieved? (OK, apart from May 2011 )

October 24th 2012, if you include N. Ireland.

watty

There is no 100% coverage without Satellite too of course, which is why UK has Freesat.

STB

watty wrote: »

There is no 100% coverage without Satellite too of course, which is why UK has Freesat.

100% is not a statutory requirement. Near Universal coverage is. Semantics I know. They are above their analogue coverage and have been for some time. Infact they were way ahead of the targets set and Tv3 havent had to worry about it.

All the other dates of launch etc were plain old political football.

Sponge Bob

watty wrote: »

I first visited Dublin in 1966. It was an amazing sight!

It used to amaze me when I was a kid as well, all those monster aerials pointing north.

Watty, do you know anything about this evident wanton vandalism that occured in Dublin in 1966 and for which nobody was caught.

larchill

The original proposal for DTT included plans for 1 or 2 of the multiplexes to be made available to service providers who would offer a package for €9.99. It was intended to include some of the BBC & ITV services along with some others. As with a lot of other things, once the backside fell off everything these plans died. SKY & UPC however have this sown up @ this stage.

I did read somewhere in the last week or so that RTE are introducing a film channel for Irish films on Saorview?

Macy0161

For what it's worth, we do use RTE1+1. I would prefer the original proposal though, that was (ridiculously imo) blocked by the BAI/ Minister on the basis of competitor complaints.

The kids watch RTEjnr. My only complaint is the restricted broadcasts at the weekend, which will hopefully change.

Pay DTT was never viable on the line up they were offering. I was going to say no one in their right mind would pay extra for mainly FTA UK "terrestrial" channels, but I guess the viewing figures show that most who have pay TV do. If they'd gone more niche, with the likes of UKTV (the likes of Dave) channels and eurosport, they could've had a chance of at least launching. Or gone for enough capacity to replace MMDS.

Also not convinced that the combo is dead. We've got used to no epg on satellite - we've apps/ websites that we use for what's on now as a matter of course.

Capt'n Midnight

What is the potential market for pay DTT here ?

It's limited by the number of set top boxes that can reliably decrypt.
How many non-approved boxes out there may not be able to do this ?

Do Saorview TV's take decryption cards or would people have to buy a CAM ?


One niche might be for people who live in apartments and aren't allowed dishes but can get Saorview on an internal aerial.

But don't forget the people willing to pay top dollar already have SKY / UPC. You'll be competing on price because you just can't compete on channel line up.

watty

Any digital TV above I think 16" is meant to take a CAM. Only any use if the tuner/decoder works here, no use for separate setbox.

Almost no TVs take a card directly (if they did it might be the "wrong" cam).

Almost no DTT setboxs sold here have a CI slot.

To do pay DTT you need to supply a CAM and Card for TVs that work on aerial directly and setbox, cam and card for everyone else.

Only Cable Broadband / TV combo has a way to do Pay TV without a card and CAM. Though it's expensive, so UPC doesn't do that currently. They may eventually when MMDS is gone and all cable TV have Broadband option.

MMDS isn't competitive to Satellite or Cable in number & quality of Channels. To make Pay DTT competitive the Saorview would have had to be on VHF only and Pay DTT have entire UHF band including the Digital Dividend part. There would not be space for 5 FTA HD channels either.

Pay DTT if it ever happens in Ireland due to someone with more money than sense would go bust.

It's cheaper to launch a competing pay TV satellite platform and that hasn't happened in UK since BSB went bust and was taken over by Sky (yes they "called" it a merger).

Antenna

Solair wrote: »

American NTSC analogue broadcasts already switched off.

Not accurate, the ASO in the USA was only manditory for 'full-power stations' - it was not manditory for 'low power TV stations' and relays ('translators') which can still transmit analogue if they so wish until a planned complete shutdown date on September 1, 2015
Low power TV there can be as much as 3000 Watts at VHF, and 150kW ! at UHF

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_television_transition_in_the_United_States#Low-power_stations

The Cush

watty wrote: »

Any digital TV above I think 16" is meant to take a CAM.

Screens greater than 30cm.

watty

I predict overpriced cheaply made 29.5cm portables.

STB

The Cush wrote: »

Screens greater than 30cm.

In 2012, CI Plus is mandatory on TV's over 30cm under Nordig Unified Req. Infact all CI plus devices (registered after 1/8/12) from now on must be CI Plus 1.3 certified.

In the old days

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

What is the potential market for pay DTT here ?

It's limited by the number of set top boxes that can reliably decrypt.
How many non-approved boxes out there may not be able to do this ?

Do Saorview TV's take decryption cards or would people have to buy a CAM ?


One niche might be for people who live in apartments and aren't allowed dishes but can get Saorview on an internal aerial.

But don't forget the people willing to pay top dollar already have SKY / UPC. You'll be competing on price because you just can't compete on channel line up.

Small niche surely but maybe a little broader than you outlined if an attractive alternative commercial package was proposed for punters. People that only ever had analogue might take up a 'saorview+value' package now that they have got a taste for more channels with a dozen or so of the uk channels e.g. bbcs, c4s, news channels, few doc/music/children channels etc. mostly fta uk by arrangement (say under tenner a month with no dross and stick a card in the cam without complication). People with second/third tvs might go for cheap basic package rather than sky multiroom (particularly those without a landline in particular outside UPC land). Plus a 'premium saorview sports+ package' for the sky sports channels (skip the movies altogether) . In Dublin, as an alternative to UPC this could also catch on if pricing was right for hard strapped punters.......just a few minor issues to be sorted....Exit left heading for dragon's den with proposal....

Solair

larchill wrote: »

The original proposal for DTT included plans for 1 or 2 of the multiplexes to be made available to service providers who would offer a package for €9.99. It was intended to include some of the BBC & ITV services along with some others. As with a lot of other things, once the backside fell off everything these plans died. SKY & UPC however have this sown up @ this stage.

I did read somewhere in the last week or so that RTE are introducing a film channel for Irish films on Saorview?

It was dead in the water long before the recession. There simply aren't enough punters watching television directly from transmitters to make a commercial DTT service viable in Ireland. Sat/Cable uptake is enormous.

If anything, the recession might have boosted numbers as people might have seen it as a cheaper alternative to cable / satellite or installing UK freesat.

Sponge Bob

Dead in the water even then, how many Saorview boxes support CONAX decryption anyway?? Outside Lithuania of course or China

Capt'n Midnight

In the old days wrote: »

People that only ever had analogue might take up a 'saorview+value' package now that they have got a taste for more channels with a dozen or so of the uk channels e.g. bbcs, c4s, news channels, few doc/music/children channels etc. mostly fta uk by arrangement (say under tenner a month with no dross and stick a card in the cam without complication). People with second/third tvs might go for cheap basic package rather than sky multiroom (particularly those without a landline in particular outside UPC land). Plus a 'premium saorview sports+ package' for the sky sports channels (skip the movies altogether) . In Dublin, as an alternative to UPC this could also catch on if pricing was right for hard strapped punters.......just a few minor issues to be sorted.....

who needs sky multiroom ?
you can get FTA feeds and use video sender / RF out from the main sky box for the pay channels

Multiplex transmission costs would be ~ €10m a year

Add in some overheads and you need 100,000 customers at a tenner a month before you pay for content. UPC have 420,000 customers. You aren't going to get 1 in 4 UPC customers switching to a different pay TV service with good reasons. Anyone who cancels UPC TV but keeps broadband still gets the basics.

Sky have 600,000 customers but they could all move to FTA during the next ad break at zero cost so you are going to have to impress them.


you can move the numbers up and down a bit , but you are going to need a lot of people signing up to be successful. People moving from SKY already have the FTA channels. People on UPC might go broadband with Netflix & co.
If someone is cancelling because of cost there is a lot of good FTA content out there with a lower initial cost.

RTE are paying €1.5m for the 6 channels on Saorsat



what might have worked would have been some sort of combo PVR box
FTA for the UK channels, Saorview for Irish and Topup tv on a multiplex
http://www.topuptv.com/ (if it worked out well you could use the satellite for extra channels) - but the install cost would be a lot ( probably cheaper for SKY to carry RTE than faf about with aerials and it keeps them on the SKY box )
but topupTV has shed a lot of channels https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Up_TV#Discontinued_Channels_and_Services