What type of farming you can actually make a living out of?

F.D

Doing some thinking about where to go with the farm over the weekend, and wondering if its worth spending money on it the whole time, i am working full time but wondering, As the title suggests,

what Type of farming can you actually Work at full time that will....
support a family, and have an actual quality of life out of it
What Size farm do you need to be to support this ?
Does your partner have to work off farm full time to make it viable ?
Leaving your heart out of it, is it actually worth the investment?

Personally we keep putting thinks on the long finger in the house like decorating and building the garage etc, all because we find something else to spend it on, on the farm in the hope someday that we will be able to give up working and have a life out of it, but now i'm starting to think if its never going to sustain us whats the point.
P.S I'm not been negitive just want to be realistic.

Username John

F.D wrote: »

Personally we keep putting thinks on the long finger in the house like decorating and building the garage etc, all because we find something else to spend it on, on the farm in the hope someday that we will be able to give up working and have a life out of it, but now i'm starting to think if its never going to sustain us whats the point.
P.S I'm not been negitive just want to be realistic.

Hi F.D

I don't think I can answer the first bit as to what type of farming leaves the most money - mainly cos I don't know enough about all types.
But I think its very dependent on individual situations as well - age, size of farm, land type, location, opportunities for expansion, etc... So its hard to know if there is any one answer...

I know really that I will never be able to pack-in the day job, and go farming full-time. The farm just doesn't make enough money, and I cant ever see it making the same as an off-farm job for me...

For me its more realistic to think the farm will allow me to retire a bit earlier maybe... but that's (hopefully) a long ways away.

Again - without knowing your exact situation, its hard to say. But I think it may be bad to let the farm take every bit of money you have... I think this could only lead to resentment over time...

For me - as a part-time farmer (if you could even call me that, but we will for this conversation) What I'd like to do is take money out of the farm every year and use it to pay for a holiday. Money is easily spent, and you don't know what goes where half the time...
But I think if you use farm money directly to pay for a good holiday, then you can say "the farm paid for this" and feel good about it. I would hope it would give a sense of achievement as well, that the time you put into the farm, does give rewards for you and the family...

Sorry OP - I think I have not really answered your question...

bbam

F.D wrote: »

Doing some thinking about where to go with the farm over the weekend, and wondering if its worth spending money on it the whole time, i am working full time but wondering, As the title suggests,

what Type of farming can you actually Work at full time that will....
support a family, and have an actual quality of life out of it
What Size farm do you need to be to support this ?
Does your partner have to work off farm full time to make it viable ?
Leaving your heart out of it, is it actually worth the investment?

Personally we keep putting thinks on the long finger in the house like decorating and building the garage etc, all because we find something else to spend it on, on the farm in the hope someday that we will be able to give up working and have a life out of it, but now i'm starting to think if its never going to sustain us whats the point.
P.S I'm not been negitive just want to be realistic.

It's very hard to look at farming just through the numbers. Farming is a lifestyle choice as regards a career and that is very hard to value.

Working a 9-5 no doubt has benifets, regular cash, regular hours, maybe less responsibility. Structured time off.
However full time farming allows an ammount of flexibility for family issues that few in a 9-5 get. Many full time farmers near me can do school runs, work their farming day to reduce child care costs. A day off is their decision and not at the bequest of others, they get to decide the business need for a day off, not a manager.
The flip side is tough, long days, 365 days a year ,, night calvings, getting two weeks holidays is rare.

So while you can compare the €€€ values the lifestyle is like comparing apples with oranges, each has benifets and draw backs.

For those of us part timers we get some advantages of both, disadvantages of both and hope that it's worth it come year end.

blue5000

I'm farming fulltime, 125 acres, suckler cows. It can be done but money is always tight, v little for re-investment. We got no holidays this year, car and jeep are both over 10 yrs old and you can guess how old the tractor is.

On the plus side we are keeping our heads above water, paying the bills and the children have a good quality of life.

To answer your question OP I think it really depends on how much debt you are trying to service.

moy83

How many sucklers blue , our farm is 140 acres of middling land im trying to up the number of cows for when the father retires and hope to do less work outside the gate . I have a mortgage but the wife is working too so Im hoping it will work out in the end

F.D

Thanks for the replys so far, Username John i like you idea about the holiday, and Blue 5000 good to see you positive about it.
We have 130 acres, 20 in tillage, the rest in grass, we were buying some year old cattle and bringing them through to finishing, and found it very low margin, now we have bucket reared calves the past two years and this year it was very expensive, and its a long time till finishing, but we need to get our stock numbers up to start with and calves seem to be the cheapest and quickest way,
We have a mortgage and my father will be retiring from his job in the years to come so he may need something out of it too,
I may be wrong on this but it seems to have some chance you would need to have cows either a good suckler herd or dairy to have a chance of making an reasonable income

oldsmokey

A proficient dairy farmer milking upwards of 70 cows will have a decent standard of living

bbam

oldsmokey wrote: »

A proficient dairy farmer milking upwards of 70 cows will have a decent standard of living

Depending on the debt the farm is carrying. I know a lad who bought more land, built facilities, and bought cows. will admitt they are making money but years like 2009 and this year are killing them. only for the fact that the wife is working they would have a tough standard of living.

Arrow in the Knee

Growing Cannabis I'd say.

Tipp Man

oldsmokey wrote: »

A proficient dairy farmer milking upwards of 70 cows will have a decent standard of living

And if he has small loans he'll be making more money than the guy with 200 cows, new sheds, parlour and a couple of lads to pay

galwayhillbilly

I know that if I had 130 acres and the resources to fully stock it, I would not be working full-time but then again I have only a small mortgage and I'd be very happy to be without the second car and the long commute to work and I am not very happy in my job so am probably a little biased. I could probably make a few quid off-farm doing some nixers as well(not strictly fulltime farming I know but not full time slave either)

I would say that there has to be a farming enterprise out there that would allow you to do it full time on that acreage if its what you really want. If you planted a large portion of it in forestry that would give you a strong guaranteed tax free income for 20 years, this could be set aside to service loans mortgages etc., you could farm the rest of it intensively in whatever enterprise you would choose
Best of luck with it if you do decide to go full-time BTW make sure the better half is fully on board and that s/he knows that there will be cashflow and other mini-crises to come if your partner is fully on board and fully informed s/he will be your best ally.

kevthegaff

im milking 80 cows on my own, pretty low cost system on a sizeable block of ok land, i have pretty big repayments on stock, quota and buildings. i put all the money left back into the house and farm. im pretty comfortable but if i got married and had kids that could change

milkprofit

oldsmokey wrote: »

A proficient dairy farmer milking upwards of 70 cows will have a decent standard of living

can you give us the figures

Tipp Man

milkprofit wrote: »

can you give us the figures

70 cows producing 5,500 litres @ 30 cent is 115k
Costs @ 17 cent is 65k
Profit of 50k

Sale of culls and calfs to be added

Most farmers are surely targeting profits of over 750-800 a cow on a typical year aren't they

keep going

Tipp Man wrote: »

70 cows producing 5,500 litres @ 30 cent is 115k
Costs @ 17 cent is 65k
Profit of 50k

Sale of culls and calfs to be added

Most farmers are surely targeting profits of over 750-800 a cow on a typical year aren't they

have always found milking cows the only way of making money.you have 3 chances to score every year.1 the milk 2 the calf 3 the cull cow ,so depending on whats making money you have a great chance.eg this year sold alot of older culls and problems cases for nice money in the spring(pity the fella s that bought them).last year kept the later bull calves and made a few bob on the rising market in the autumn

badshot

Arrow in the Knee wrote: »

Growing Cannabis I'd say.

you beat me to it

blue5000

moy83 wrote: »

How many sucklers blue , our farm is 140 acres of middling land im trying to up the number of cows for when the father retires and hope to do less work outside the gate . I have a mortgage but the wife is working too so Im hoping it will work out in the end

65 gone to the bull this year including in calf heifers, haven't scanned yet so will hopefully calve around 60 next year.

F.D

keep going wrote: »

have always found milking cows the only way of making money.you have 3 chances to score every year.1 the milk 2 the calf 3 the cull cow ,so depending on whats making money you have a great chance.eg this year sold alot of older culls and problems cases for nice money in the spring(pity the fella s that bought them).last year kept the later bull calves and made a few bob on the rising market in the autumn

Thats a good point, you are spreading the risk so to speak, i also agree with the point about not been too big and having the right number and not too much debt, but unfortunatly for Dairying its impossible to get into without a lot of debt initally, especially when there is no infrastructure in place..

Kevthegaff did u start off with a big number of cows or start small and work your way up?

Blue 5000 that's a good number of cows, do you sell off all the weanlings every year or hold some to finishing?

Galwayhilbilly My Wife is even more of a farmer than me at the moment loves all the hardship that goes with it which is the main reason i am looking to turn it into something we can work as a family someday, i just want to be carefull and explore all the options before making any decisions

Good to hear everones opinions keep them coming !

rancher

F.D wrote: »

Thats a good point, you are spreading the risk so to speak, i also agree with the point about not been too big and having the right number and not too much debt, but unfortunatly for Dairying its impossible to get into without a lot of debt initally, especially when there is no infrastructure in place..

Kevthegaff did u start off with a big number of cows or start small and work your way up?

Blue 5000 that's a good number of cows, do you sell off all the weanlings every year or hold some to finishing?

Galwayhilbilly My Wife is even more of a farmer than me at the moment loves all the hardship that goes with it which is the main reason i am looking to turn it into something we can work as a family someday, i just want to be carefull and explore all the options before making any decisions

Good to hear everones opinions keep them coming !

Keeping 500 ewes here on 120acre selling 650 -700 lambs + 100 cull ewes, costs are about €50/ewe.....very busy march/april...20hrs work a week after that

Cran

rancher wrote: »

Keeping 500 ewes here on 120acre selling 650 -700 lambs + 100 cull ewes, costs are about €50/ewe.....very busy march/april...20hrs work a week after that

Is that full time rancher, do you have any other enterprises on the farm?

rancher

Cran wrote: »

Is that full time rancher, do you have any other enterprises on the farm?

No, winding down now, used to rent land , had sucklers and tillage ....enjoying the lifestyle now

blue5000

Blue 5000 that's a good number of cows, do you sell off all the weanlings every year or hold some to finishing?



Good to hear everones opinions keep them coming ![/QUOTE]

Up to this year was always selling the weanlings either off the cow or at about 12 months old. This winter keeping about 20 bulls to beef next summer at 16 months. Still haven't decided what to do with the later born calves, will probably castrate them and sell them if cash is tight (for buying meal:() next June, or if funds are ok slaughter them as steers around christmas in 2013, mostly angus x so should get a premium for them which I reckon I wasn't getting at the weanling stage in the mart.

galwayhillbilly

OP great to hear the wife is on board, mine is fully supportive but is not able for the physical work due to a chronic condition she's able to rear a few pet lambs and to spot a ewe in trouble but that's as far as it goes.

Rancher your set up is what I am aiming for, I will have to rent land to do this, which means that given the higher cost per ewe I would probably have to go much bigger than you to make a sufficient living. What sort of money should I pay for rented land and try to clear a profit from sheep?
Thanks to all the lads for sharing figures makes it easier for those of us starting out and thinking of taking a plunge

EastTyrone

another thing about milk cows is its a garunteed income with the milk cheque every month, if youre looking to take out another loan with the bank this will help even if the profit is not too great, unlike say sucklers were the majority of money for the following year is comming from a couple of months.

Min

Yeah dairying is good, but if one doesn't have the set up which a non dairy farm wouldn't, it would be costly, so it also depends on how much debt one is comfortable with when it comes to repayment.

rancher

galwayhillbilly wrote: »

OP great to hear the wife is on board, mine is fully supportive but is not able for the physical work due to a chronic condition she's able to rear a few pet lambs and to spot a ewe in trouble but that's as far as it goes.

Rancher your set up is what I am aiming for, I will have to rent land to do this, which means that given the higher cost per ewe I would probably have to go much bigger than you to make a sufficient living. What sort of money should I pay for rented land and try to clear a profit from sheep?
Thanks to all the lads for sharing figures makes it easier for those of us starting out and thinking of taking a plunge

Gross margin here varies from 700 to 900/ha, fixed costs have to come out of that,( machinery, insurance, fencing, etc) so it would be impossible if you had to pay rent as well, ie. by the time you'd get to having enough ewes to make a living, you'd have to pay labour and be back to square one

pakalasa

Was watching a programme on the "Horse and Country" channel there a while back. It was about the history of farming in the UK. Father and son on it. Father was farming around 300 acres in his day. The son was now up to nearly 4,000 acres. All tillage and 4 hired help. It makes you wonder how things will pan out in the longterm.

bbam

Not much talk of tillage, horticulture, spuds or non stock enterprises

How about poultry? Anyone with a few houses willing to throw out some numbers??

Farmer Pudsey

OP what is the setup with sheds, type of land machinery at present. You stated that you movede from store to beef to calf to beef. I think you said that you have 130 acres of land this is a good land base if it is good land.

Dairying is the most profitable however it is 7 day a week form february to november and maybe longer hard to justify paying a relief milker for a fortnight holidays and come back to double the work for two to three weeks.

If you father is retiring fairly soon he will be able to take some of the workload on a beef farm maybe allow you to get away for a couple of weeks. However you would not be able to give up work. A lot of fulltime beef farmers are either doing a bit of dealing,factory agency, hauling or contracting you would often be better off with a job that that.

TBH I cannot imagine on good quality land that sucklers would be more profitable than drystock. My own opinion is that store to beef at present is the more profitable that calf to store/beef or sucklers. If dairying expands dairy calf will become more of a byproduct of the dairying system as some dairy farmers dump the beef enterprise.I cannot see the profit in keeping one cow to produce a calf a year and often less than that.

It also depends on your SP and wheather you have reps or DA. Keeping 60 sucklers how much of a profit/cow will it leave to earn 45K with 15K of this from SP you would need 500euro's/cow profit.

Hardest part of store to beef is you have to buy at right price also if you go the contentinal/hereford route 90/year means a capital outlay of 70-100k. Cull cows/fresians/jersey crosses could cut this back to 40-60K your margin/head may be lower but your farm profit higher as you will be able to afford more stock however everything is price dependant. Also if you can finish some bulls as opposed to bullocks will also increase profitability however if your father is looking after them at times this may not be an option

TBH I be slow to give up a job to go fulltime farming often more profitable to work both togeather however you have to remember that to try to draw the last few bob out of either and accept that everything cannot be done at once.

reilig

bbam wrote: »

How about poultry? Anyone with a few houses willing to throw out some numbers??

6 hens.

In the height of laying season they can produce 40 eggs a week.

The 3 of us eat about 6 eggs a week. Looking at pickling eggs so as to preserve them for when laying season is over.

galwayhillbilly

Thanks rancher that was my own thoughts too, I will wait to see what CAP reform will do. I won't be fully stocked on my own farm for at least another year maybe 2 so there is no point in looking enviously into the neighbours field until then, but I do want to expand long-term and add to the farm so that it will be worth taking over and maybe I might be able to wind down a bit from work or take a lower paid job closer to home, or retire early.
It is very hard to know how one would go about expanding; mortgage repayments would be min 500 per-acre per-annum over 20years for bought land, rental costs anywhere from 100 to 200 per-acre per-annum. Any advice for how to expand and at the same time get a reward for the extra effort and investment?

whelan1

if you had an open farm run right that would be the business, with a coffee shop, gift shop, etc.... good market for it with school tours etc

nhg

How many store to beef could you realistically have on 108 acres of good land.

We did'nt have to have any animals indoors since last march & we have plenty of good pit & wrapped silage, we will probably be able to sell some wrapped silage next spring. We are also very well set up with slatted sheds & yards for wintering.

Great thread.

Farmer Pudsey

nhg wrote: »

How many store to beef could you realistically have on 108 acres of good land.

We did'nt have to have any animals indoors since last march & we have plenty of good pit & wrapped silage, we will probably be able to sell some wrapped silage next spring. We are also very well set up with slatted sheds & yards for wintering.

Great thread.

If you used a split system sothat you were getting cattle out 3-5 time's a year you could keep in the region of one/acre. It would also be dependant on the size of cattle kept as cattle get heavier they will eat more and require more grass. In an idead situtation where you might target cattle sales in July, August/September, November, January, and May you could carry this type of stocking levels. It would be important to target buying at times that cattle are relatively well priced.

Often buying an animal in August that is storish which will put on a lot of weight before housing (not working this year) can be cheaper than buying a cheaper animal in November. Often this animal bought in August can be finished by the following July/August before the Beef price begins it Autuam collapse. While cattle held until November/December can recieve an early winter premium compare to cattle sold in October

milkprofit

Tipp Man wrote: »

70 cows producing 5,500 litres @ 30 cent is 115k
Costs @ 17 cent is 65k
Profit of 50k

Sale of culls and calfs to be added

Most farmers are surely targeting profits of over 750-800 a cow on a typical year aren't they

70 cows cost @1300 91.000
buildings @ 4.000 /cow 280.000
370.000 over 10 yr ==38000 e take away from for tax and capitol investment 50000 e leaves 20000

yessam

reilig wrote: »

6 hens.

In the height of laying season they can produce 40 eggs a week.

The 3 of us eat about 6 eggs a week. Looking at pickling eggs so as to preserve them for when laying season is over.

Is this full time farming.:-@:-*:-$B-)

F.D

thanks for the replies some good points been made, bbam, Tillage to me is too high cost,the price of fertilizier and sprays are totally out of your control and so is the grain you sell, unless you have the acerage to spread the risk over a number of crops, we dont have the equipment so for the few acres we do we contract it out. which would mean an investment in cultivation machinery etc
our setup is:
our land is good some wet patches that could graze lighter stock 70 acres around yard, 60 a few miles away in two seperate blocks
5 bay slatted shed open sided, 5 bay round roof hay shed 24'wide, and 3 bay hay shed with lean too, and some old cow houses etc
But looking at it no matter what road i go down it will it will take some investment, but what pay's back the investment is what i'm worrying about
Milking certainly looks like it has the potential to pay the bills, even after investing in equipment and quota, but the changes post 2015 could be the problem.

Fat Cant

I grow tillage crops on farm at home , have my own machinery . Between the cost of spray fert and repairs to machinery there is nothing to be made from it, I have only been left with bills this year . The bad weather and low yields has added to this to.

Tipp Man

milkprofit wrote: »

70 cows cost @1300 91.000
buildings @ 4.000 /cow 280.000
370.000 over 10 yr ==38000 e take away from for tax and capitol investment 50000 e leaves 20000

We are looking to build a unit for 150 cows for similar money to 280k, that is outrageous for 70 cows

maxxuumman

Tipp Man wrote: »

We are looking to build a unit for 150 cows for similar money to 280k, that is outrageous for 70 cows

Theyre pretty realistic figures. Take everything into account, shed, parlour, milk tank, calving shed, calf shed, roadways, water, silage pit, dung sted, yards, tractor, implements. Its okay to say I have some of these already, but at some stage over ye next 10-15 yrs they will have to be either replaced or expanded.
Also the cow cost should be higher. 70 cows isn't just 70 cows. A 70 cow herd is actually 70 cows, 14 incalf heifers ( 14000) and 14 weanling heifers ( 6000). These have to be bought or produced over the next few years. Add this 20000 to the bill.


I'm fed up to the Teagasc figures, milk can be produced with a profit of ~13cent a litre.
Rubbish.
There are massive capital and labour costs , that are unique to dairying, and cannot be ignored under the heading Gross Costs. And when I say labour costs Im not taking, hired labour. A cattle/sheep/tillage farmer can take the odd weekend or day off at no cost. A dairy farmer can't. A cattle/sheep/tillage farmer has quiet times of the year that he maybe able to do some contracting, FRS work, or whatever. That is pretty much out of the question with a dairy farmer.

rayzorsharpest

Hi i find this interesting. Im corrently in full time employment on an average wage. I have 100 acres of good quality land & im beef farming. At the mo im not making any profit from the farm. I have an old six unit parlour on the farm that i could get going again,my father had retired from milking 10 yrs ago. Im applying for the new entrant at the mo. Just wondering am i mad to be going milking or not??
At the mo i have a good lifestyle & keeping me head above water. But i would like to make improvements to the farm & cant do, at the mo due to no profit. I feel bad about having a fine farm and not making the best of it...can anybody help me with tis important decision??

Tipp Man

rayzorsharpest wrote: »

Hi i find this interesting. Im corrently in full time employment on an average wage. I have 100 acres of good quality land & im beef farming. At the mo im not making any profit from the farm. I have an old six unit parlour on the farm that i could get going again,my father had retired from milking 10 yrs ago. Im applying for the new entrant at the mo. Just wondering am i mad to be going milking or not??
At the mo i have a good lifestyle & keeping me head above water. But i would like to make improvements to the farm & cant do, at the mo due to no profit. I feel bad about having a fine farm and not making the best of it...can anybody help me with tis important decision??

whats your current beef system that you aren't making any money?

100 hundred decent acres should hold 100 cattle on a 1.5year to beef system - fairly handily - you should make between 20-25k from this if you keep your costs under any bit of control - and its an easy system to manage with a job - some days off for mart and nearly everything else can be done on a saturday so it shouldn't interfer with your job

That's handy money on top of a job

With cows your talking giving up the job, investing a lot of money in infrastructure and then working 7 days a week. If you have any kind of a decent job then i don't think cows are the thing to go for - they lifestyle of job + cattle is better

Only my opinion of course

rayzorsharpest

I have 25 sucklers which i take trough to beef at under 30mths, plus i buy in 30 yearling hfrs each year. As im a young farmer i have NO single farm payment & i also i bought 15 acers of land which i have to make €13500k per year repayments on. Also im trying to improve the farm every yr eg;drainage, reseeding, improving farm buildings. Every yr i give my accounts to my accountant and he tells me ive no tax to pay as i havent made any profit.

Good loser

rayzorsharpest wrote: »

I have 25 sucklers which i take trough to beef at under 30mths, plus i buy in 30 yearling hfrs each year. As im a young farmer i have NO single farm payment & i also i bought 15 acers of land which i have to make €13500k per year repayments on. Also im trying to improve the farm every yr eg;drainage, reseeding, improving farm buildings. Every yr i give my accounts to my accountant and he tells me ive no tax to pay as i havent made any profit.

Follow Tipp Man's advice. Keep investing to improve labour and land efficiency. Forget the milking idea.

Tipp Man

rayzorsharpest wrote: »

I have 25 sucklers which i take trough to beef at under 30mths, plus i buy in 30 yearling hfrs each year. As im a young farmer i have NO single farm payment & i also i bought 15 acers of land which i have to make €13500k per year repayments on. Also im trying to improve the farm every yr eg;drainage, reseeding, improving farm buildings. Every yr i give my accounts to my accountant and he tells me ive no tax to pay as i havent made any profit.

Never had sucklers but everybody says they are plenty of work

Much less work without the cow and calf I reckon and probably just As much money

Don't be gettin to worried, if your paying for land then your doing ok

reilig

A couple of things that I have noticed from this thread.

Many people have the land but have an off farm job too. Any money being made from the land is being pumped back into it for improvement of it, purchasing infrastructure or increasing acerage.

If this is your situation, do you think that if you were made redundant from your job tomorrow, could you make enough money to survive from the farm that you have?

Do you see yourself working off farm until retirement and continuing with this investment into your farm? If so, why?



Not many people have actually pointed out that they feel that they could actually make a living out of suckling in the future. Does this mean that many of the people who are currently suckling will move away from suckling to an enterprise which they feel will be more profitable in the future such as sheep farming, dairying or beef finishing?
As a suckler farmer with the intention of being a full time suckler farmer in the near future, I feel that this is the best thing that could happen for suckler farming. There are too many suckler farmers producing calves whose feeding is being subsidised by an off farm job or their SFP. These guys are able to sell weinlings at a loss and are only putting money together in larger sums when they sell cattle as opposed to making any actual profit.

My advise to these suckler farmers is to get out lads

Go to the marts and bid for weinlings and stores alongside Tipp Man and Bob Charles
That's where the money is :pac: (I'm only joking lads)
Or think about forestry.

But in reality, if the people who are subsidising their loss in suckler farming got out and stopped selling weinlings below the cost of production then there would be potential for the ones who currently make a small profit to make a little more profit and make the sector sustainable.

Username John

reilig wrote: »

A couple of things that I have noticed from this thread.

Many people have the land but have an off farm job too. Any money being made from the land is being pumped back into it for improvement of it, purchasing infrastructure or increasing acerage.

If this is your situation, do you think that if you were made redundant from your job tomorrow, could you make enough money to survive from the farm that you have?

Do you see yourself working off farm until retirement and continuing with this investment into your farm? If so, why?

Not many people have actually pointed out that they feel that they could actually make a living out of suckling in the future. Does this mean that many of the people who are currently suckling will move away from suckling to an enterprise which they feel will be more profitable in the future such as sheep farming, dairying or beef finishing?
As a suckler farmer with the intention of being a full time suckler farmer in the near future, I feel that this is the best thing that could happen for suckler farming. There are too many suckler farmers producing calves whose feeding is being subsidised by an off farm job or their SFP. These guys are able to sell weinlings at a loss and are only putting money together in larger sums when they sell cattle as opposed to making any actual profit.

My advise to these suckler farmers is to get out lads

Go to the marts and bid for weinlings and stores alongside Tipp Man and Bob Charles
That's where the money is :pac: (I'm only joking lads)
Or think about forestry.

But in reality, if the people who are subsidising their loss in suckler farming got out and stopped selling weinlings below the cost of production then there would be potential for the ones who currently make a small profit to make a little more profit and make the sector sustainable.

Hi Reilg,
Interesting post...

Your view is "poorer suckler farmers should quit, as they are loss making the majority of the time, and should give the better ones a chance"

Is this the same argument a full time farmer could use - "part-time suckler farmers should quit, and give full-time ones a chance"
After all - its the same argument that part-time farmers have the off-farm job to subsidise them
(I know you will say you make a profit every year, but the reality is that in a very bad year, you will use your off-farm job to tide you over if needs be, whereas a full time guy might have to sell some cattle, etc)



I wonder is it a case of the big farmer will always think the small farmer should give up (and maybe sell to him)

reilig

Username John wrote: »

Hi Reilg,
Interesting post...

Your view is "poorer suckler farmers should quit, as they are loss making the majority of the time, and should give the better ones a chance"

Is this the same argument a full time farmer could use - "part-time suckler farmers should quit, and give full-time ones a chance"
After all - its the same argument that part-time farmers have the off-farm job to subsidise them
(I know you will say you make a profit every year, but the reality is that in a very bad year, you will use your off-farm job to tide you over if needs be, whereas a full time guy might have to sell some cattle, etc)



I wonder is it a case of the big farmer will always think the small farmer should give up (and maybe sell to him)

You totally imagined that!!

Nowhere did I mention that the "poorer farmers should quit". You said that!

Poor farmers don't have money to pump into farms which are making a loss. Wealthier farmers who have off farm jobs do.

I said that those who are using their off farm job or their sfp to feed their suckler calves and then sell these calves at below the cost of production should look at an alternative enterprise for their farm.

There are plenty of small suckler farmers out there who are making a profit. There are plenty of suckler farmers out there who have off farm jobs and are making a profit.

Is your argument that those suckler farmers who are making a loss should continue to make a loss?????

You do realise that when weinlings are sold at below the cost of production, they bring the price down for everyone else which leaves less profit for suckler farmers who may be operating a viable enterprise???

One wet year is fine, however there are a large proportion of farmers out there who use their off farm job or their SFP to tide them over every year. Do you honestly think that we should continue to encourage these people to operate a farming practice which costs them money earned off farm? SFP is supposed to be an income supplement for farmers. A huge proportion of farmers use this income supplement to pay for the running of their farm.

Its as crazy as putting money into Anglo Irish Bank!!!

Why not encourage farmers to farm in a way which they could make profit from. This would improve their lives and improve the economy!!

Juniorhurler

Tipp Man wrote: »

Never had sucklers but everybody says they are plenty of work

Much less work without the cow and calf I reckon and probably just As much money

Don't be gettin to worried, if your paying for land then your doing ok

This is what I keep telling myself too.

My situation is that I always kind of worked away with the auld man on his land and kept a few sucklers in his herd. To make space for this we sent in calf replacements out on a per week b&b arrangement to be summer grazed. My stock numbers grew and this left us under pressure for land again. Rather than renting land I took the plunge and bought 43 acres of land in early 2011.

I am running at 22 sucklers at the moment and tilling about 15-18 acres of this 43 until I increase stock numbers enough to graze it all. At the moment I am making almost enough to meet the repayments only. I will have to dip into the off farm job to the tune of about €3.5k this year. I have a tiny sfp from buying entitlements in 2011 to ensure I was in the system on a possible reference year.

Now, I have no sheds put up, no machinery bought or any of the other fixed costs yet. I have spent €20k draining and reseeding the land and put up a handling facility.

In real terms I am at absolutely nothing. I have no hope of going full time farming. When the two blocks of land are put together (about 120ac) maybe I will have but the boss is only very early 60s so this will hopefully be 15 years or more off yet.

Why am I doing it? Well I have a son 2 years old. He comes farming every day. Hopefully I can keep expanding and give him the option of being a full time farmer in the same way that my dad had no land, 5 children and the mother not working and managed to buy over 70ac.

I also have the option of job sharing in my job. In years to come this may be possible for me. Work 5 mornings a week and be home by dinner time. This is my target for 10 years away. I know its not really making a living from it but it is making a life from it.

Username John

reilig wrote: »

You totally imagined that!!

Nowhere did I mention that the "poorer farmers should quit". You said that!

Poor farmers don't have money to pump into farms which are making a loss. Wealthier farmers who have off farm jobs do.

I said that those who are using their off farm job or their sfp to feed their suckler calves and then sell these calves at below the cost of production should look at an alternative enterprise for their farm.

There are plenty of small suckler farmers out there who are making a profit. There are plenty of suckler farmers out there who have off farm jobs and are making a profit.

Is your argument that those suckler farmers who are making a loss should continue to make a loss?????

You do realise that when weinlings are sold at below the cost of production, they bring the price down for everyone else which leaves less profit for suckler farmers who may be operating a viable enterprise???

One wet year is fine, however there are a large proportion of farmers out there who use their off farm job or their SFP to tide them over every year. Do you honestly think that we should continue to encourage these people to operate a farming practice which costs them money earned off farm? SFP is supposed to be an income supplement for farmers. A huge proportion of farmers use this income supplement to pay for the running of their farm.

Its as crazy as putting money into Anglo Irish Bank!!!

Why not encourage farmers to farm in a way which they could make profit from. This would improve their lives and improve the economy!!

Hi Reilg,

To confirm, I meant "poorer farmers" not in the wealthy sense, but in the ability sense (but I can see it was the wrong choice of words now)

I can see your point, and it is valid - farmers who year in, year out produce animals and sell them, and don't need to make a profit (or don't push to make a profit) distorts the market.

My point (albeit not very well made) was - could the argument not be made that part-time farmers, can cover certain losses over a year relative to a full-time farmer (due to off-farm job) And this also distorts the market?


EDIT : I guess where I am coming from is i am not a fan of your stance of "inefficient farmers should be encouraged to change practices... On the face of it, sounds good. But to translate that into 'maybe you should stop calving cows, and buy cattle instead" I don't like. Maybe the farmer enjoys calving his few cows...

rayzorsharpest

I know if i was made redundent i would not be able to pay my morgage out of my farming system at the mo. I would either HAVE to get another job or go dairying to make a living.
Its just i see my farm as a great asset & feel its a shame that im not making money from it, or getting the full potential from it. As reguards improving the farm,i think that everyone that has been so lucky to have a farm left to them shld improve it for the xt generation & maybe there mite be a living out of it when their time comes around.

I agree with ur last comment,i would LOVE to continue with suckling to make a full time income from it. But i just dont see it happening. How many suckler cows wld i need to make €35k income for myself per yr??
The 25 sucklers i have are good. If i was to increase suckler nos to 70 and sell them as weanlings at an average price of €700 bulls & heifers. 70x700=€49000. Take 50% being costs thats €24,500. At this money i could not jusify full time farming.

Where as with dairying say: i could easily hold 80 cows (5000litres per cow). Say at a profit of 10c per litre i could make thats 5000l x 80 cows x .10c/litre = €40,000. What do u think?????