Water pump problems

oirishfruitie

Hello,

My water pump is acting up. It's a TechFlow T2. The way its rigged up, from what i can tell - all water outlets are connected to it (taps, shower, toilets, washing machine etc), except the cold water in the kitchen sink. Annoyingly - everytime even a glassfull of water is filled - the pump goes on for about 30 seconds - is this normal.

Anyway - that, and the fact that it's noisy were just nuisances.

Now - it seems - the only way I can get the pump to work and fill the toilet or start the shower - is to use the tap in that backroom. So it's just the taps that are triggering the pump, rather than the toilet, shower AND sink taps.

Does that sound like a magnet problem or would it be the capacitor? Guessing if it was capacitor - I'd be seeing problems with the taps too. So is it the magnets that do the 'switching'?

Guess I'll need to get someone to look at it anyway - but would be good to have an idea. And of course until then - there is a work around - turn on the tap.... but how long will be be before that fails?

Thanks

LIFFY FISHING

Is it a positive or negative pump, BTW if it was a capicitor it would be making a buzzing noise

oirishfruitie

Liffy Fishing,

Hmmm... how can I tell/find out? I've mailed Techflow support.

I'm 99% sure this is the pump - http://www.techflow.co.uk/Turborange.htm - but it says it can be either negative or positive.

No buzzing noise.

Thanks

ANXIOUS

LIFFY FISHING wrote: »

Is it a positive or negative pump, BTW if it was a capicitor it would be making a buzzing noise

Can you explain the buzzing noise please?

LIFFY FISHING

If its a negative head pump there will b a small vessell attached to the pump. If there is no vessell its a positive head pump.
A negative head pump has a run on which means it will stay running for a while when the outlet is closedie tap , shower & thst will be normal as the pump is priming its self.
You appear to be not creating enough flow to turn your pump on , thats why I asked which pump you have , if you stick up a pic it would help assist your problem.

Regaring buzzing , if a starting capisator is failing it will make a buzzing or humming noise.

LIFFY FISHING

BTW a pump cant be both positive or negative, its one or the other.

Merch

Is it an apartment or a house, whats the location?

oirishfruitie

Ok - I'll post a photo later this evening - as I googled positive and negative pumps images and couldn't be 100% sure which one it is.

It's an apartment.

Someone I spoke to said it may be airlocked - which is plausible as the water was off a couple of days ago.

sanbrafyffe

if its an apt,,its a negative pump on to a combi cylinder,,,cant see it being airlocked thou you never know

oirishfruitie

Sounds right as it's a combi cylinder. I read quite a few posts about water outages causing problems for pumps and airlocking. I'm also thinking (from what I read) that it might be the magnets?

LIFFY FISHING

sanbrafyffe wrote: »

if its an apt,,its a negative pump on to a combi cylinder,,,cant see it being airlocked thou you never know

You shurly mean it should be a negative pump ? seen positive pumps in the wrong place, a picture paints 100 words

oirishfruitie

Ok - good point Liffy Fishing. I'll take a photo this evening and post it.

oirishfruitie

Photo of pump attached.

Further info - I believe the problem is with the cold water side of things. Bathroom taps - hot water has a decent amount of pressure, like before. Cold water - not much pressure at all. Which would explain why it doesn't fill the toilets. Also - shower won't start when positioned to the cold water side, but does if on the hot water side.

Am I making any sense?

Merch

By the look of the vessel on the left sorry, thats the capacitor I think,of that pump and you saying its an apartment, that must be a negative head pump.
really you need to source a replacement and get a plumber to fit it.

Unfortunately, the bad news is, negative head pumps aren't cheap, I looked into this and had a thread asking about it before, a friend of mine asked me to look into her problem like yours as she paid a few people (id have to confirm how many) to fix the problem, it never went away, until she paid to get the pump replaced.

Continue with the enquiry here, if you get the make/model number someone here may be able to advise you if a repair is likely.
I'd imagine it will only postpone the inevitable, which is a pump replacement.
So a repair may be possible
or it may be as well to go for a replacement with a new pump,

Im not a plumber so this is based on my own experience, maybe someone here will advise you or even be able to point/pm you to a good plumber? if thats allowed?

try lowering the shower head into the bottom of the bath, then turn on the water, that may get the pump running, but only to sort you out until the pump is replaced, that may help with showers/ even cisterns fill if the pump starts by doing that etc, unless the pump is totally knackered.

oirishfruitie

The taps in both sinks in the bathroom still start the pump - so I'm not in a hobble at all. The inconvenience is that, on flushing the toilet, the pump doesn't start to refill the cistern. Turning on the tap in the sink next to it, starts the pump - which then fills the cistern. Same deal for the shower. So for now - am managing fine.
I'm going to try and figure things out before i go down the new pump road to be honest

oirishfruitie

And Liffy Fishing - I reckon you are right when you said "You appear to be not creating enough flow to turn your pump on". Why would this happen though - the reduced flow in the cold water?

Merch

oirishfruitie wrote: »

The taps in both sinks in the bathroom still start the pump - so I'm not in a hobble at all. The inconvenience is that, on flushing the toilet, the pump doesn't start to refill the cistern. Turning on the tap in the sink next to it, starts the pump - which then fills the cistern. Same deal for the shower. So for now - am managing fine.
I'm going to try and figure things out before i go down the new pump road to be honest

So, you're not stuck, had a vision of filling buckets and pouring into the cistern
You may be able to start the shower by lower the head (if its removable from the wall, ie on a flexible connection) into the bath, but you still have the tap method anyway.

Well, at least you are in no rush, gives you time to see if the pump can be repaired.

I think you are missing something from that picture, whats above that? is there another device connected to the pipework?
if one of the pipes on the left is an outlet, is there a component there? that could be some sort of low pressure switch? probably something like that, that starts the pump and keeps it going ( electrically, ie like a switch, it turns the pump on and off?, unless its internal to the pump), maybe thats why its switching on and off?? the pump runs, that suggests its functional.

LIFFY FISHING

you have a positive head pump, which is the wrong pump for the application, basically you need a positive head of water acting on the inlet side of the pump, which is called flooding the pump, the cold side of your pump wont activate becausr of the low flow of water been called for by your cistern, and cold basin tao, btw is the tap a one hole mixer tap. You only have one hope that when the cold water went off , and came back again it pulled debris into the cold side of the pump and onwards to the ballvalve and cold tap, seen it happen often, failing that it's either spend your money fixing the wrong pump that dhould never been installed or put thr funds towards getting a negative head pump, cost average 500e for one, the good news is the plumbing and electrics are done so its handy andy time to replace it with whst you have, what part of the country are you ?

oirishfruitie

Merch - there is no switch above this setup.

Liffy - Yeah - I'd prefer to way up all my options to be honest. Can it really be the case that 200 of these 'incorrect' pumps were installed in a block of apartments. The answer is probably yes - but i might check with the neighbours and see if they still have the original pump.

So - from what I read - there are 2 possibilities;
1. Grit in the ball valve and cold tap - which could be tested / removed
2. Something else has gone wrong with the pump - what exactly?

If I do need to change the pump - I go for a negative head pump - and preferably one that is less noisy - but I'm not at that stage yet - for obvious cost reasons!

I reset the magnets tonight - they seemed - pump started fine from both the hot and cold reed switches.

Yes - both of my taps are the mixer taps.

LIFFY FISHING

Get in touch with the Shower doctor in Parkwest in Dublin, they have a nation wide set up fir service agents, looks likley that you could be onto sonething then with the reed switches or flow switches.

oirishfruitie

Ok Liffy - will keep Parkwest in mind.
Re the reed switches - I think they are fine. It didn't change things though. My summary from today is that the hot water is fine and activates the pump. The cold water TAPS work - but the pressure isn't great. The hot in the shower (when turned to that side) works. But if turn on when set to cold - doesn't work - and therefore doesn't activate the pump. And neither one of the toilets activate the pump. So I think you hit the nail on the head when you said there's not enough flow to start the pump from the cold. What I'm wondering is - what may have caused this... maybe the dirt you speak of, or an air bubble? Or is there something more serious going on?
Thanks for all the advice. At least I know a bit more than I did this time yesterday.

wing52

Give the filter/s a clean out.

They're normally found in the inlet connections.:)

oirishfruitie

Wing52 -

Although I know alot more about the pump now - ... can you give a little more info on where they are - and how to clean them?! The inlet connections - are they the side of the water going into the pump? Are the filters on the actual pump?

Thanks!

Merch

If there aren't any (either any/visible/accessible) shut off valves, I'd be careful about disconnecting anything, is there a property below you?

oirishfruitie

I am clueless Merch - I won't do anything without being 100% sure.

I think there are shut off valves on the hot/cold pipes going into the pump - I will look again when I am home. Even then - I don't think I'd be confident about messing with pipes close to the pump. I will get a plumber if needed - but would be delighted to have info for him - and suggestions on what it might be. I don't appreciate a plumber suggesting I need a new pump without even seeing it.

I got in touch with the Techflow people in the UK - they are now Stuart Turner. He is being helpful. He suggested the magnet test - to see if it turned on the pump on both the hot and cold. It did. He is now suggesting I 'tune' the magnets - something I didn't think was possible (those switches are very small!). I'll have a look at this tomorrow.

Thanks all

Merch

oirishfruitie wrote: »

I am clueless Merch - I won't do anything without being 100% sure.

I think there are shut off valves on the hot/cold pipes going into the pump - I will look again when I am home. Even then - I don't think I'd be confident about messing with pipes close to the pump. I will get a plumber if needed - but would be delighted to have info for him - and suggestions on what it might be. I don't appreciate a plumber suggesting I need a new pump without even seeing it.

I got in touch with the Techflow people in the UK - they are now Stuart Turner. He is being helpful. He suggested the magnet test - to see if it turned on the pump on both the hot and cold. It did. He is now suggesting I 'tune' the magnets - something I didn't think was possible (those switches are very small!). I'll have a look at this tomorrow.

Thanks all

Not sure what the magnet test is? I'm assuming they are getting you to put a magnet near a certain part and that turns the pump on?
If thats the case then they are getting you to test a reed switch, this tells you that is working and if the pump goes on, then that the pump also works.
This tuning, I'll have to hazard a guess at that, I'll assume that there is some adjustment on the switch, some kind of grub screw that adjusts it, that varies its position/sensitivity to flow?
I'd suggest getting the name and model of the pump from the data plate and see if you can download a pdf installation/operating instructions from the manufacturer.
At least it will confirm what type of pump you have, where filters are,if any.

As for the magnet test, it sound like these are things that should be checked using a multimeter with the power off, you should be able to test the switches (ie magnet test if its what I think you're doing) that way.

You said there is no other device connected to the piping near the pump, whats above the pipe at the back on the left?

oirishfruitie

Doesn't look like my reed switches are adjustable

Merch

did you locate a manual?

contact the tech support and ask them what they mean by tune?

oirishfruitie

Merch.

Yep - I have the manual. And yep - I did the tuning (loosening/tightening the screws) and it didn't make a difference.

Alas - I contacted Shay Dunican (087 6696979) - he serviced it before and has also been recommended on a few posts I've seen. I explained the situation. He confirmed it's a negative head pump. He said it sounded like a negative head failure which can be fixed with a simple restart of the pump - switching it off and back on. If it wasn't that - he would have to call to check it out. However.....

I'm embarrassed to say - a restart fixed things. Lesson learned. Thanks to Shay and thanks to you all for reading and lending your advice.

Merch

oirishfruitie wrote: »

Merch.

Yep - I have the manual. And yep - I did the tuning (loosening/tightening the screws) and it didn't make a difference.

Alas - I contacted Shay Dunican (087 6696979) - he serviced it before and has also been recommended on a few posts I've seen. I explained the situation. He confirmed it's a negative head pump. He said it sounded like a negative head failure which can be fixed with a simple restart of the pump - switching it off and back on. If it wasn't that - he would have to call to check it out. However.....

I'm embarrassed to say - a restart fixed things. Lesson learned. Thanks to Shay and thanks to you all for reading and lending your advice.

I looked at the technical info on the link you provided, the negative head pump seems to have a pressure vessel (i think to get the flow started, i know the capacitor actually is what causes the motor to start electrically)
Your motor doesnt seem to have a pressure vessel, I also noticed on the technical info that there are shut off valves built into the pump connections (whether yours has these or not is a different story, but Id guess its possible).
Not sure what longterm solution powering on and off provides, it may only serve to push out or worsen a potential problem, that may be solved by doing something simple (like cleaning the filter/strainer).
when you say he serviced it before? what did he do? was their a previous problem? (the same one?, if so how long ago?).

Im not to clear what exactly a negative head failure is either? negative head is when the pump has to pump above the supply or presumably above a certain maximum height above the level of a pressurised supply.
The tuning sounds a bit iffy too
Just trying to figure out in my head the fault?

oirishfruitie

I'll monitor the situation and update accordingly...