Teaching in England: why the huge discipline problems?

Seanchai

This is obviously a big topic but people who have taught in England are repeatedly saying on this forum that generally speaking there are far greater discipline issues in English schools (example: this thread). However, it's never clear why discipline is such a big problem in English schools.

That's what this thread wants to find out.

What are the reasons for this? What school cultural issues are responsible? Is it primarily bad management? Is there a lack of staff team work/cohesion and too much emphasis on the individual teacher? Are teachers just tired and distracted by all the paperwork and bureaucracy which goes with the job there? Do teachers view themselves as being underpaid and overworked? Is there generally bad morale among teachers? What changes need to be made to their education system to make classes more disciplined and respectful to the teacher?

What societal cultural issues are responsible? Do teachers have a lower status in society there, or weaker unions standing up for them (or both) and is this a factor? How much is the policy of multiculturalism and the associated problem of integration responsible for bad discipline in schools? Are schools in rural England much better in terms of discipline? Is a large part of the problem essentially a problem of social cohesion due to the absence of traditional structures, similar to that faced by the northern cities of Chicago, Detroit etc when large scale migration from the American south occurred between the 1950s and the early 1970s?


Are financial or social justice issues an important cause? Are classes bigger (I doubt it)? Do they not have programmes similar to DEIS to tackle social inequality (I doubt it)? Are there funding issues which lead to bad discipline (it doesn't seem so)? Are the poorest and most marginal areas of society there somehow poorer and more marginalised than similar areas in Ireland and is this a factor?

And do you think the education system in Ireland is heading in the same direction? If so, why?

SubBusted

One word and seven syllables - multiculturalism.

Heydeldel

I'm no expert but while I was there ( Just for 6 weeks ) I found that the kids are super self conscious. There just wasn't a sense of cohesion among any classes. Like you'd get here. Kids here banter among themselves and I think feel more comfortable around each other. I found the English kids to be very wary of each other and had very separate social groups. The way they spoke to each other really put me off the school I was in, they had no respect for each other.

We're lucky to have small community schools here where kids have grown up together or play on the same sports teams, come from the same primary schools etc. There isn't that level of community in English schools as far as I can see.

Also I think a small factor is that the schools provide the books, copies etc to the kids. They have very little sense of ownership over their learning. They don't bring any books to school or copies unless they have homework. So between girls you get this competitive handbag culture and it comes down to social status etc.

Plus most kids know they'll be out of school by 16 after the GSCE so there's no incentive to get involved in a school community etc. whereas here you're more than likely in a school for 5 -6 years consecutively and there's more student involvement.

Possibly another reason is that they start secondary at 11 and finish around 16. Think of the 1st to 3rd years here, they can be a really hard group to motivate - imagine 3rd years here having to sit a huge exam and decided what they want to do afterwards?! It's too much too young I think.

Just my limited observations.

bdoo

There's too much fear of upsetting children and parents. There are children there who I taught myself who were 13 or 14 and had never been corrected in their lives, my classroom was a culture shock for them, phone would be ringing flat out with parents looking to complain that I was being too hard.

Secondly the curriculum is dumbed down far enough to provide no stimulation for anyone but the weakest which leaves the stronger kids bored to tears and starting to chat etc..

Make a few cry in at the start of every term, it makes things easier in the long run

dory

Also, the schools that need to go sourcing teachers imagine Ireland are the schools that have these discipline problems. They have their grand school as well.

implausible

dory wrote: »

Also, the schools that need to go sourcing teachers imagine Ireland are the schools that have these discipline problems. They have their grand school as well.

??

Fuinseog

SubBusted wrote: »

One word and seven syllables - multiculturalism.

one name Catherine Birbalsingh, a woman who stood up to the nonsense and was fired.

Fuinseog

bdoo wrote: »

There's too much fear of upsetting children and parents. There are children there who I taught myself who were 13 or 14 and had never been corrected in their lives, my classroom was a culture shock for them, phone would be ringing flat out with parents looking to complain that I was being too hard.

Secondly the curriculum is dumbed down far enough to provide no stimulation for anyone but the weakest which leaves the stronger kids bored to tears and starting to chat etc..

Make a few cry in at the start of every term, it makes things easier in the long run

and how is that different from ireland?

rodgered

Discipline is down to multiculturalism and the set up at home. And I currently teach in the UK.

bdoo

Fuinseog wrote: »

bdoo wrote: »

There's too much fear of upsetting children and parents. There are children there who I taught myself who were 13 or 14 and had never been corrected in their lives, my classroom was a culture shock for them, phone would be ringing flat out with parents looking to complain that I was being too hard.

Secondly the curriculum is dumbed down far enough to provide no stimulation for anyone but the weakest which leaves the stronger kids bored to tears and starting to chat etc..

Make a few cry in at the start of every term, it makes things easier in the long run

and how is that different from ireland?

It is my experience that parents are more supportive here in general.

Another factor in England is,the huge turnover of teachers, the kids always have the upper hand on a new teacher, if they have it in the majority of classes they feel as if they have more control in the school than teachers.

bdoo

rodgered wrote: »

Discipline is down to multiculturalism and the set up at home. And I currently teach in the UK.

The culture of the classroom is what is important though. A culture of sit there quietly and contribute in an appropriate fashion crosses the cultural divide. Treat them all equally badly if you must. Leave your baggage at the coat rack.

There is too much pussy footing in schools, here and there. Too much of people trying to look after feelings all the time. Kids hate being Molly coddled, by all means care for them and let them know that there are supports but punish the hell out of them until they comply.

I used to do.lunchtime detentions for bold kids, I'd have them washing and cleaning the woodwork room, escalate to after school detentions - oh wait you cant I have a meeting about the meeting we have at half 8 in the morning.

Irish schools are going the same way, all fur coat and no knickers.

Aspiring to this and aiming for that. And so busy writing it all down that the little things get ignored.

rodgered

Depends on the school really. Where I currently teach there is a clear structure on how to deal with misbehaving students and thankfully the option is there to come down on the children like a tonne of bricks. The only problem is everything has to be logged and this can take ages if you are teaching over 200 children as I am.

Its true that the Irish education system is going more and more like the UK, yet the irony is that since the Tories came in they are starting to change it back to the old school ways. Micheal Gove (who to say I dislike is an understatement) has changed things to a more traditional sense. This year GCSE students will be studying the course in a linear fashion and at the very same time Ireland announces to go continuous assessment. Slightly off the point I know.

juan.kerr

I guess we can expect things to get worse for teachers in Ireland.

spurious

Couple of troll attempts here, at least one from a known repeat offender.

Thank you ladies and gents for not responding to the trolls.

mattjack

Seanchai wrote: »

This is obviously a big topic but people who have taught in England are repeatedly saying on this forum that generally speaking there are far greater discipline issues in English schools (example: this thread). However, it's never clear why discipline is such a big problem in English schools.

That's what this thread wants to find out.

What are the reasons for this? What school cultural issues are responsible? Is it primarily bad management? Is there a lack of staff team work/cohesion and too much emphasis on the individual teacher? Are teachers just tired and distracted by all the paperwork and bureaucracy which goes with the job there? Do teachers view themselves as being underpaid and overworked? Is there generally bad morale among teachers? What changes need to be made to their education system to make classes more disciplined and respectful to the teacher?

What societal cultural issues are responsible? Do teachers have a lower status in society there, or weaker unions standing up for them (or both) and is this a factor? How much is the policy of multiculturalism and the associated problem of integration responsible for bad discipline in schools? Are schools in rural England much better in terms of discipline? Is a large part of the problem essentially a problem of social cohesion due to the absence of traditional structures, similar to that faced by the northern cities of Chicago, Detroit etc when large scale migration from the American south occurred between the 1950s and the early 1970s?


Are financial or social justice issues an important cause? Are classes bigger (I doubt it)? Do they not have programmes similar to DEIS to tackle social inequality (I doubt it)? Are there funding issues which lead to bad discipline (it doesn't seem so)? Are the poorest and most marginal areas of society there somehow poorer and more marginalised than similar areas in Ireland and is this a factor?

And do you think the education system in Ireland is heading in the same direction? If so, why?

Have you taught or were you educated in England ?

Fuinseog

rodgered wrote: »

Discipline is down to multiculturalism and the set up at home. And I currently teach in the UK.

I have never taught in the UK but I have worked in a variety of Irish schools. Discipline depends very much on who is at the helm of the school. I have been in schools which were run by helicopter parents, others where the kids did as they pleased, including selling drugs. I also worked as deprived schools where the kids could have been gurriers but were nice and polite cos if they stepped out of line they would be out the door.


discipline could also be related to the way teachers are viewed by society as a whole.

rodgered

Fuinseog wrote: »

I have never taught in the UK but I have worked in a variety of Irish schools. Discipline depends very much on who is at the helm of the school. I have been in schools which were run by helicopter parents, others where the kids did as they pleased, including selling drugs. I also worked as deprived schools where the kids could have been gurriers but were nice and polite cos if they stepped out of line they would be out the door.

Fair enough. I have taught in both and while I do agree that whoever is in charge has a huge effect, I think the original problems of discipline grow from the lack of home support and multiculturalism. You have children from different backgrounds for example who would not view women as equals in society and so struggle to follow instruction.

With the original post asking does pay and place in society mean teachers struggle, I would say that teachers are valued less here than at home and are indeed paid less but this doesnt necessarily mean you will let discipline slide in the classroom. After all, running a tight ship makes it easier on yourself.

darlett

I'm at total novice level and only after spending a week of observation in advance of my first teachers practice. What I observed overall was fairly well behaved classes...How much was down to the teachers ability and character Ill find out when I go back! But after a strict diet of John Bayley's classroom discipline videos based on English classrooms I was dreading it.

This school is a small one of about 250 students and I think thats (student population size) central to the whole thing. I imagine it to be true that a bigger school has bigger discipline issues due to a greater feeling of anonymity and the issues that gives. I certainly dont know much about school populations here or there, but would it be true that generally our school sizes are dwarfed by those in England?

whiteandlight

The mention of turnover of teachesr is very interesting. This is a huge concern of mine for the future of the irish education system that I feel is largely ignored. The relatively new trend for short contracts as low as 2-7hrs is going to cause similar problems here. I've a class of fairly weak 3rd year music students this year-I'm their 4th teacher in three years!! The weakest group of third year maths students is on their second teacher this year already because the hours were included in a 3hr contract and the teacher moved onto a better contract.

caspa307

honest reply from someone that went to 2 of the worst schools in London (then i grew up.) Classes as in social classes, kids in England are either rich or poor, if your in the middle your either fighting for your money or its being taken off you, while i was brought up great had respect for adults and so on, the minute i hit secondary school it was literally "are you a loner or a crew member" its gang mentality over their in schools, and the sad fact is teachers in england are part of that because half of them are either previous school attendees or there used to being bullied, ive sat in a class and watched 3 mates make a substitute teacher cry and leave, then go to complete respect for one teacher cos they knew he grew up like them and wouldn't take their ****, as cliche as it sounds that what it is teachers either get respect or their treated like the new kid and bullied, they cant do anything about it, worse thing a teacher can do is send you to the principals office, "yeah fine" so you leave the classroom and mess about in the corridors because that teacher cant bring you there, as it would give the others time to do worse then disrupting the class. like i said its just my opinion but if teachers could do more punishment wise it wouldnt be half as bad. the kids dont respect themselves or anyone else.

Fuinseog

Musicmental85 wrote: »

The mention of turnover of teachesr is very interesting. This is a huge concern of mine for the future of the irish education system that I feel is largely ignored. The relatively new trend for short contracts as low as 2-7hrs is going to cause similar problems here. I've a class of fairly weak 3rd year music students this year-I'm their 4th teacher in three years!! The weakest group of third year maths students is on their second teacher this year already because the hours were included in a 3hr contract and the teacher moved onto a better contract.

its not unusual for the kids to have six different teachers in the space of a single academic year. who is going to spend a year in a school working less than ten hours?

Fuinseog

rodgered wrote: »

Fair enough. I have taught in both and while I do agree that whoever is in charge has a huge effect, I think the original problems of discipline grow from the lack of home support and multiculturalism. You have children from different backgrounds for example who would not view women as equals in society and so struggle to follow instruction.

With the original post asking does pay and place in society mean teachers struggle, I would say that teachers are valued less here than at home and are indeed paid less but this doesnt necessarily mean you will let discipline slide in the classroom. After all, running a tight ship makes it easier on yourself.

are you given guidelines in a british school on how to react if a Muslim father refuses to deal with a female teacher?
the multicultural argument is not a huge thing here in Ireland. I have had various experiences. if the kids actually speak English i find them to be very hard workers. eastern europeans are used to a strict no nonsense approach in school and sit there quitely in disbelief as the teacher wastes half the class dealing the disruptive Irish pupil.

whiteandlight

I'm not sure if you misread me but I'm not saying it doesn't happen I'm saying it has an impact on learning and behaviour

rodgered

Fuinseog wrote: »

are you given guidelines in a british school on how to react if a Muslim father refuses to deal with a female teacher?
the multicultural argument is not a huge thing here in Ireland. I have had various experiences. if the kids actually speak English i find them to be very hard workers. eastern europeans are used to a strict no nonsense approach in school and sit there quitely in disbelief as the teacher wastes half the class dealing the disruptive Irish pupil.

Had a parent teacher meeting there recently enough, female teachers are warned not to extend their hands for a handshake as it is highly insulting to the fathers. I myself (a male) tried to shake the hands of a female Muslim once and she refused just saying it was against her religion.

I find Asian children to be incredibly driven, yes their behaviour is not what it should be and very often they have an arrogance about them but they are more focused then say many children who I teach from an African background.

Before anyone jumps in I am trying my best not to stereotype.

bdoo

rodgered wrote: »

Before anyone jumps in I am trying my best not to stereotype.

And doing a fine job might I add!

Thats the problem though too, if you said as a female teacher say that you found it difficult to dealwith Muslim parents for example you'd be called a racist.

Not singling out Muslims now or anything but by way of example we should respect the customs of others while they don't respect us, to me that's the bull**** that makes the job difficult. Accept that this man thinks you should be at home making three dinner.

Equality

Musicmental85 wrote: »

I've a class of fairly weak 3rd year music students this year-I'm their 4th teacher in three years!! The weakest group of third year maths students is on their second teacher this year already because the hours were included in a 3hr contract and the teacher moved onto a better contract.

There is an interesting point here. It is the weakest class who were assigned a teacher on a three hour contract. The more academic children, who actually need less help, would not be treated like this.