Fluidity in Gender and Sexuality

Das Kitty

One of the things I learned through by time in therapy was to acknowledge and respect my feelings. It was very useful in my emerging from depression. However it has some very interesting knock on effects. (Well I find them interesting!)

For instance, in the past if I had a desire that fell outside of what I believed was my 'box' I would write it off, downplay it, wait for it to go away and then think, "Lord, that was a bit mad."

Nowadays I accept them as part of me. For example, I often get the hots for sexy ladies and before I would had called that a girl crush or similar so that I could remain within my 'straight' box. Now I accept that if I'm sexually attracted to more than men, I'm not straight. And I'm fine with that. I find it freeing. Also, it changes for me over time. There was a time when I was sexually attracted to absolutely no one, and it's been changing about since.

Today I saw this video, and I thought it summed up a lot of what I know about myself and I thought I'd share it and ask if anyone else feels like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXAoG8vAyzI

Morag

Reminds me of the genderbreadperson.

http://itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/1600-Genderbread-Person.jpg

Catari Jaguar

Yea, I was recently watching the Sex Researchers on 4OD. Kinsey reckoned there were 6 points of sexuality on a sliding scale between straight & gay. Most men in reality are either gay or straight and generally not bi. Women on the other hand are plotted all over the scale.

One test on the show was to determine what people thought they found attractive compared to what their body was physically turned on by. The men's results were spot on, they admitted they felt turned on by women in porn and maybe a little by the men, and the physical response indicated the same. The women were a lot less likely to admit that they were turned on, but physically they were aroused by the men AND women in the porn.

Another test was to hook volunteers up to a machine that tracked where your eyes were looking and for how long. They showed more MF porn, men looked at it and spent about 10% of the time on the men and the rest on the women, specifically breasts/ genitals. The women, spent 50% on the men and women, less time looking at genitals, more time looking at curves, facial features, the man's chest, arms etc. Basically women appreciate the beauty of the both genders a lot more than men.

Wompa1

Always be wary of these studies. The studies are set out to prove somebody's own theory. No matter what, they will prove their theory whether or not their data is definitive. Questions are plotted and mapped out in such a way to garner a certain response. Any data that skews the theory simply gets lost or moved to a separate study. Sorry for being a buzzkill, I know a girl who did a study around this sort of thing, I helped with the study and still get a dirty feeling knowing I was involved in something so corrupt.

The Big Red Button

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

Yea, I was recently watching the Sex Researchers on 4OD. Kinsey reckoned there were 6 points of sexuality on a sliding scale between straight & gay. Most men in reality are either gay or straight and generally not bi. Women on the other hand are plotted all over the scale.

I'd definitely agree with this.

But, maybe this is somewhat influenced by society?

Personally, while any of my serious relationships have been with men, I've always been attracted to both men and women. And I've never met any negative reactions to this - it's perfectly socially acceptable.

Whereas, for men to "come out" and admit that they are sometimes attracted to other men - even if they've never been in a gay relationship - I don't know, there just seems to be far more of a social stigma attached to it?

I know, from my own experience (because I'm really curious about this sort of thing), I've often asked friends "How straight are you? Say if 100% is heterosexual, 50% is bisexual, 0% is homosexual, where are you on the scale?" I have almost always found that female friends will give a percentage somewhere on the scale - say between 50% to 80% - while males will almost always say 100% straight. Even if they're in no way homophobic.

Lyaiera

Wompa1 wrote: »

Always be wary of these studies. The studies are set out to prove somebody's own theory. No matter what, they will prove their theory whether or not their data is definitive. Questions are plotted and mapped out in such a way to garner a certain response. Any data that skews the theory simply gets lost or moved to a separate study. Sorry for being a buzzkill, I know a girl who did a study around this sort of thing, I helped with the study and still get a dirty feeling knowing I was involved in something so corrupt.

What exactly do you mean by "these studies?" Because if you mean academically rigourous, peer reviewed studies then I don't know how you've come to that conclusion. There's more and more information being learned about fluidity in gender and sexuality (especially as the world becomes more equitable and tolerant) and it's important work. So I'm going to guess that by "these studies" you mean "studies you disagree with."

Ilyana

I can identify with this. Throughout my teen years I always considered myself to be straight, because I always liked guys.

But recently enough I've accepted that I do find women attractive too. This realisation came with panic, but now I know that just because I allow myself to acknowledge a pretty woman, it doesn't mean I can't find men attractive.

Robert Downey Jr is a babe IMO, but so is Kat Dennings. Go figure!

Simply put; to me, a person is attractive regardless of gender. I'm not gay or straight, just somewhere in the middle of the spectrum. And I'm willing to bet that more people are like me; whether they're willing to admit it to others or themselves is another matter.

Honey-ec

I don't think being able to appreciate an attractive woman necessarily means anything on its own, though. Whether or not you can see yourself being with another woman would be more indicative of fluidity in sexuality, imo. Every woman I know will happily talk about other women they think are gorgeous. Does it mean they're potentially not 100% straight? I don't think so.

Morag

My first crush and first kiss was with another girl, but most of my relationships over the years have been with men. I'm bisexual, it's never bothered me that I am. Other people's assumptions have caused me stress from time to time, but I have found the fact I am Bi not to be a big deal for me.

I do think there are more people then we thinks, who are bisexual, that is they find certain members of both genders to be sexually attractive but bisexuality is not spoken about much and there are a whole heap of myths and slurs which are often attached to the terms. Also there is the issue of Bisexuality invisibility, that people assume what my sexuality is due to whom they see me with. Just because I am in a committed relationship with a guy, that doesn't mean I don't still find certain women stunning and attractive.

As well as being Bi I think I fall outside of what are considered the gender 'norms' and I'm ok with that, I can be womanly with out being overtly girlie/feminine, often all of it is too complex to explain and just saying I'm queer covers most of it.

Shivers26

This makes perfect sense to me. I would often be attracted to women but I am straight. I do think there is way more stigma attached to men saying other men look nice.

My husband is so unbelievably homophobic, it's actually quite shocking. He will turn away from the tv screen if there is anything even remotely gay on. Gay men only though, gay women are fine. Go figure!

sharper

I think that without other people to enforce a set of views and behaviours most individuals would be more...individual in how they express their gender and sexuality.

I do think it's become a lot more acceptable for both men and women to express same-sex interests. It's long been "acceptable" for women in the sense of "Isn't it nice for the girls to perform for the men" but it's more of a "big deal, who cares" type thing now.

More important than who people think are hot or even would have sex with is who they could form intimate emotional connections with.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

Another test was to hook volunteers up to a machine that tracked where your eyes were looking and for how long. They showed more MF porn, men looked at it and spent about 10% of the time on the men and the rest on the women, specifically breasts/ genitals. The women, spent 50% on the men and women, less time looking at genitals, more time looking at curves, facial features, the man's chest, arms etc. Basically women appreciate the beauty of the both genders a lot more than men.

That is an interesting result and does seem to line up with what I've noticed from most guys. I'm male so I do get to hear the stuff guys say when women aren't around and the focus usually is quite narrow, something very specific that jumps out at them.

I've never had that type of focus, everything has to be within context for me. If I can't see someone's face, particularly their eyes I find it hard to appreciate everything else (hence those oversized sunglasses don't really do it for me )

baby and crumble

Coming at it from a different perspective I think than most women in here, I identify strongly as a lesbian- and I do believe I am known as a "gold star" lesbian, in that I have never had a sexual relationship with a guy. I find women gloriously attractive, and I make no bones about it. If someone asked me 5 years ago to define my sexuality I would have said 100% homosexual.

Now, however, I wouldn't be so quick to do so. I cannot imagine me forming a strong relationship with a man- that dynamic does nothing for me. Women are infinitely more attractive to me that way. However, as I grow older and my views on life and all sorts of things change, I could see myself finding a man physically attractive enough to go to bed with. I can't see it going much further, to be honest, but otherwise yeah. And that view could get me a fair bit of slack in some quarters of the lesbian community.

As for gender, I am certainly female, and I love being a woman. However, I probably identify a bit more on the masculine side in my personality and how I dress. I like all the accoutrements that goes along with being a bit more masculine, like manners that usually men abide by (like opening doors, offering other women a seat, etc.). So I guess my physical sex doesn't match 100% with my gender identification, but I don't see that as a problem. I think it's an asset. A lot of women don't expect chivalry (for want of a better word) these days, and when it comes from another woman, who is clearly female with no real desire to be male, it throws them a bit. I enjoy doing that. I enjoy it when women get a bit confused that I'm flirting with them, or when they realise they are flirting back. It's fun.

And anyway, my girlfriend likes it all, so it can't be too bad.

Catari Jaguar

Jenna Marbles talking about Girl Crushes. Pretty funny. I like her "I can't tell if I want to be you, or want to be on you!" I actually used to say that all the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylVlkv1el3Q

fits

I think its been a popular idea in recent years that a lot of women aren't 100% straight, and I guess many of us have questioned ourselves about it. Myself included. But the way I feel now is that I can totally admire and enjoy looking at a beautiful woman, I'd have absolutely zero interest in getting physical with her. None. I am 100% straight, no question.

Lia_lia

Yeah, I dunno. I've alway known I wasn't straight. But I don't like the label "bisexual" either. I can't really get my head around how you can be attracted to just one gender, but that's just me. I like everyone :P If someone asks me what my "orientation" (bleugh) is I usually change the subject/avoid the question.

Saying that, when I'm seeing a girl I seem to find girls more attractive and when I'm seeing a guy I see guys as more attractive. Only something I noticed recently. A year/2 years ago I had a thing with a girl that lasted a while and it's only now in the past few months that I've been with a guy again. And girls just seem less attractive to me. When I was with my last long-tem boyfriend (3 years ago?) I said I'd never be with a girl again, not a hope. No interest. And then I was. So I dunno. Whatevs.

Das Kitty

Lia_lia wrote: »

Yeah, I dunno. I've alway known I wasn't straight. But I don't like the label "bisexual" either. I can't really get my head around how you can be attracted to just one gender, but that's just me. I like everyone :P If someone asks me what my "orientation" (bleugh) is I usually change the subject/avoid the question.

I've only been asked once in the past year and I said, "Dunno, but not straight." Sometimes in my head I think 'human-sexual'. I know there's a term 'pansexual' but it reminds me of pan's people... Labels are for jars, Lia!

Saying that, when I'm seeing a girl I seem to find girls more attractive and when I'm seeing a guy I see guys as more attractive. Only something I noticed recently. A year/2 years ago I had a thing with a girl that lasted a while and it's only now in the past few months that I've been with a guy again. And girls just seem less attractive to me. When I was with my last long-tem boyfriend (3 years ago?) I said I'd never be with a girl again, not a hope. No interest. And then I was. So I dunno. Whatevs.

That happens to lots of people, they find elements of lots of who they're with attractive in others. It's why I go wonky for glasses.

LegacyUser

My experience is similar to the ops, I spent several years drawing the same conclusions. It was also part of what helped draw me out of a cycle of depression and many years of social and physical isolation. I'm still not inclined to refer to myself as a gay woman, although that might have more to do with my own and others preconceived notions about homosexuality.

I think there is a lot of myth and stigma still attached to "not being straight" and personally I feel that much of it is fuelled by the publicity or strong presence that the gay male has rightly or wrongly promoted within society. There's nothing hedonistic or deviant about loving a woman, for me. In fact it's very much the opposite, it's an emotional connection on a level that I could never have with a man. I think homosexuality in women is a different ball game (no pun intended) than how homosexuality is portrayed in men.
To refer to another thread in the vicinity, love is waking up and feeling happy because you have found someone who you want to share your life with, for better or worse.
It's not a sexual revolution, it's realising your soul doesn't have boundaries when it comes to loving someone.

The Corinthian

chatterpillar wrote: »

Personally, while any of my serious relationships have been with men, I've always been attracted to both men and women. And I've never met any negative reactions to this - it's perfectly socially acceptable.

Whereas, for men to "come out" and admit that they are sometimes attracted to other men - even if they've never been in a gay relationship - I don't know, there just seems to be far more of a social stigma attached to it?

Historically I think this has always been the case. Lesbianism was typically ignored where it comes to any law regarding homosexuality, as far back as Leviticus in the Bible, that only mentions men, and most anti-homosexuality laws targeted sodomy specifically - as far as I know, female homosexual relations have never been technically illegal (could well be wrong).

In fact, because penile penetration is required to qualify for rape, legally, it's only a misdemeanour to have a lesbian relationship with a girl of 15 years of age.

I suspect pornography has also made it more acceptable, in that female bisexuality is promoted as the 'norm', and this has, in turn, influenced popular culture (e.g. Katy Perry's 'I kissed a girl').

LegacyUser

Going unreg for this I do think that sexuality and gender are fluid. While I am straight sexually I have been crossdressing for years. I feel that my gender is I between and it can be difficult at times. I don't want to become female and sometimes people treat crossdressing as a fetish but it isn't a fetish to me. I feel and think that crossdressing allows me to open up to the feminine that is in me. Hope that makes sense!

Scruffles

dont know how rare this is,but have always been nonsexual-in the extreme sense of the word,dont have any bond or connection to humans,lacked any understanding of gender and gender differences till adulthood [still dont get the concept or most differences] and in terms of identity the only label out there that fits is adrogyny,but this all really shows just how much severe autism has a part in sexuality and its confusing to know where we fit in with adrogyny as it doesnt quite cover having no gender or social rules understanding.