Ash Dieback Disease (Chalara fraxinea) in Ireland

taxusbaccata

Solution for Dieback

Get as many key seeds from as many sites as possible. Sow thousands of seeds in a warm humid polytunnel. Spray Chalara into tunnel and let nature take its course.

There is a series on Netflix called 3% except for ash seedlings it involves humans.

Job done.

timfromtang

Cutting a quote from taxusbaccata,,,,,,,,


"Solution for Dieback

Get as many key seeds from as many sites as possible. Sow thousands of seeds "








An idea with possibilities, there may be serious regulatory concerns from the disease control crowds, i expect they would take issue with folk visiting multiple ash sites to collect keys,

I'd like to suggest we discuss here a potentially "safe" method of sharing ash keys, or indeed ash seedlings, to those folk with the ability to screen for resistance in this way.

I'd like to suggest another approach to broaden the scope, many folk have neither polytunnel nor the ability to spray "chalara" inside.
Many folk do however have infected ash trees nearby, (a number i fear will increase with time)
I'd like to suggest a similar screening program, based on hundreds of seedlings, in pots or soil, planted or placed nearby.
If this were done by a large network of individuals countrywide....................
well
it raises hope perhaps??


perhaps foresters nationwide or a fraction thereof would consent to each running as many screenings as they see fit, in the infected sites that they manage.

perhaps foresters nationwide, or a fraction thereof would consent to running polytunnel screening programs of their own, in this way potentially having a selection of resistant seedstock available for the future. I would suggest that infective material to "spray" into the tunnel could be collected from leaf litter underlying infected sites.

I do not fear will come to distrust Ash as we have come to distrust Elm, it is in my humble opinion an essential feature of our community of life on this little green island, there is no material suited better for hurl, or axe, it supports a wide community of other creatures.
if we could possibly achieve continuity...... in our ash population......... the time for distrust would not develop, and the any intervening periods of scarcity of supply might instead reinforce its importance to us, and raise its value to the point that there would be a good economic incentive to grow Ash.

Lets discuss a safe method of plant material interchange, and perhaps methods of networking to begin a widely distributed screening program,
any takers?

tim

HURLERS HURLERS HURLERS,,, get the seeds to the clubs, get the clubs to plant and manage their own little test plots, give the clubs a protocol to follow for consistency and safety, perhaps the GAA may see fit to employ a forester at each club to run a screening program, they have an incentive after all................

Vivat Fraxinus excelsior

Fada beo an crann.

Oldtree

I admire your optimisim Tim, but I cannot see a resistant plant coming from Seed from planted stock, all with a close heritage from within seed stands, from stands here or imported stock. I think it more likely that a resistant plant may be found in a " wild setting" with a much more diluted locally defined heritage.

At this point in time I am beginning to wonder how long the disease will persist in the environment once the ash trees are gone. Would the disease just die out and be gone? Will we have to wait till our lovely old friends have faded away? Would we all be better then collecting and storing our own seed for the future from non planted sites, esp older trees, and finding a way to safely sterilise the seed and waiting till this crisis is over and done before germinating them?

timfromtang

Oldtree wrote: »

I admire your optimism Tim, but I cannot see a resistant plant coming from Seed from planted stock, all with a close heritage from within seed stands, from stands here or imported stock. I think it more likely that a resistant plant may be found in a " wild setting" with a much more diluted locally defined heritage.

At this point in time I am beginning to wonder how long the disease will persist in the environment once the ash trees are gone. Would the disease just die out and be gone? Will we have to wait till our lovely old friends have faded away? Would we all be better then collecting and storing our own seed for the future from non planted sites, esp older trees, and finding a way to safely sterilise the seed and waiting till this crisis is over and done before germinating them?

indeed it is likely that resistant plants will be found in a wild setting,,,
You will note that i proposed that folk plant a wide variety of seed from many different sources, and that i mentioned the central difficulty of how to organise the collection and sharing of such a wide variety of different seed stock.
This is central to the plan,
we know from the European experience of the disease that resistant plants are likely to exist in the wild.
optimism undented
i will continue to screen my own stock of ash for resistant plants
I probably have in excess of 30,000 ash growing here at the moment,
tim

If we do nothing...............
if many folk try many different things with optimism.........................
which approach do you feel is likely to produce the best result oldtree?

Perhaps we can discuss the central problem............
how to collect safely and distribute to interested parties a wide variety of ash seeds or seedlings to grow in trials.

Indeed perhaps seed can be collected from known resistant European trees and trialled by many here on our lovely green island

without optimism, inventiveness and hope we will have little chance of helping the situation i feel.

The doom and gloom must be dispelled if we are to have any chance with dealing with the multiple ecosystem ailments we currently face.

tim

Vivat Fraxinus

greysides

This disease came from abroad. Has any work been started there?

tabby aspreme

greysides wrote: »

This disease came from abroad. Has any work been started there?

If you search for ' seed orchard fp 202 Denmark '
or 'ash tree number 18 and 35' , you will get some information on research that is ongoing.

Oldtree

Tim, evil prevales when good men do nothing.
Much like the department ignoring this threat until it was too late. This thread has been a record of that malaise, with information surfacing that predates the start of this thread indicating a time when there was the possibility of isolating this islands ash and it was knowingly ignored. So I really expect no more than a bit if lip service from there.

I do not intend to do nothing. I have ancient ash stock and I intend to try and preserve the genetic linage therein. It is far more valuable in research terms than the linage in mass produced stock that has been bred for specific traits and is of mostly unknown provenance. I am going to have to figure out a way to ensure self pollination to preserve the line. So far just practicing saving seed and attempts at germination havn't been great, so any advice welcomed.

At the same time I cannot ignore the evidence that is coming from Europe and the UK about how virulent and thorough this disease is.

blue5000

Is the freezer a good place to keep seed or is it too cold?

TheBody

blue5000 wrote: »

Is the freezer a good place to keep seed or is it too cold?

This site indicates that the freezer is too cold but the fridge is ok.

http://treegrowing.tcv.org.uk/grow/tree-recipes/ash

Blackcurrants

Oldtree wrote: »

At the same time I cannot ignore the evidence that is coming from Europe and the UK about how virulent and thorough this disease is.

I hate to say it but from what I have seen there is very little we can do but look for natural resistance and try and realise what we can from our plantations. The disease is so fast moving and aggressive that unless you are situated on the top of a hill away from other plantations there is little chance of not finding the disease in the next few years. Thankfully we have mainly mixed hardwood plantations. We had to fight tooth and nail for 2 years to be allowed to plant an ash and oak mix 25 years ago and thank the God's we did. How can the Dep. be so short sighted?

I'll definitely be collecting and cataloguing our old ash on the farm.

In regards to natural resistance; is this partial resistance or full resistance? Would the tree look diseased and survive or will the tree just remain healthy? Currently I'm removing trees that are showing signs of the disease, perhaps this is counter productive as some may be resistant?

Oldtree

It appears that a catch 22 lies in wait for us.

Aside from ash dieback, the other major threat to European ash trees is the Emerald Ash Borer beetle, which has already devastated vast tracts of ash in the USA and is currently spreading westwards across Europe.

Joint lead author Dr Christine Sambles, of the University of Exeter, comments: "Our research highlights the danger of selecting trees for resilience to ash dieback at the expense of resistance to insects that threaten this iconic UK tree species."

"Ash dieback, which is caused by a fungus called Hymenoscyphus fraxineus, can kill young trees in a season, while older trees tend to decline and die over several years."

https://phys.org/news/2017-01-ash-diebackinsect-threat-fungus-resistant-trees.html

Here's the paper

Here we sequence the genome of a low-heterozygosity Fraxinus excelsior tree from Gloucestershire, UK
Surveys of these markers in British populations suggest that reduced susceptibility to ash dieback may be more widespread in Great Britain than in Denmark

Could I hope to suggest that there is an even better reduced susceptibility to ash dieback here. Even more important now to collect the old trees seeds, until proven otherwise.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v541/n7636/full/nature20786.html

It is worth noteing that our dwarf ash trees, such as those on limestone pavements, can be of a great age. Should you find any have a look here to see how to get a rough age for them:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=76652880

Oldtree

TheBody wrote: »

This site indicates that the freezer is too cold but the fridge is ok.

http://treegrowing.tcv.org.uk/grow/tree-recipes/ash

Thank you for the link, getting to work on the leaf mould now but going to use beech leaves not ash.

taxusbaccata

timfromtang wrote: »

Cutting a quote from taxusbaccata,,,,,,,,


>>>...there may be serious regulatory concerns from the disease control crowds, i expect they would take issue with folk visiting multiple ash sites to collect keys,

The regulatory crowd have failed in their belated attempts at logical solutions for Dieback. Cut down the suspected tree and bury it in the ground seems to be national policy. It is a wind borne fungal entity that can exist on more than Ash trees. Genetic variation is the only way out.

The poly tunnel inoculation suggestion is to stress huge amounts of genetic variation in an incubation chamber. The natural setting is definately worth running in parallel but I think the artificial mass inoculation could come up with survivors rapidly. It is the youngest trees that are most vulnerable so it is best to kill these off from the beginning rather than contract the disease in more mature trees.

With regard to your 30,000 trees - if this is a monoculture then I fear they are weakened. This was the situation in Poland where Dieback was first officially diagnosed (in Europe). Nature does not like monoculture of any organism and kills off the species if its numbers get too concentrated. This could be an issue in my polytunnel theoretical setup..

My method of planting Ash are in a 4 point Ash square with an alternating supporting tree in the centre - birch, alder, oak, and willow - which also form a 4 point overlapping network. Thus each ash is in contact with all these species. Each tree has special "super powers" - alder for nitrogen fixation and oak for stimulating fungal networks etc. The logic behind this network is based on recent evidence using radioactive elements that trees of the same AND different species share resources with each other. This promotes much healthier trees including immune systems to fight the great foe.

I note woodpeckers are very helpful for emerald ash borer - have we any native bird species that could help here? Again polyculture to attract birds could be invaluable with this additional crisis.

Anyway all I suggest is theory and opinion with about 10% fact thrown in.

I'll see how I get on and post any sightings of the ash plague.

timfromtang

taxusbaccata wrote: »

With regard to your 30,000 trees - if this is a monoculture then I fear they are weakened. This was the situation in Poland where Dieback was first officially diagnosed (in Europe). Nature does not like monoculture of any organism and kills off the species if its numbers get too concentrated. This could be an issue in my polytunnel theoretical setup..

My method of planting Ash are in a 4 point Ash square with an alternating supporting tree in the centre - birch, alder, oak, and willow - which also form a 4 point overlapping network. Thus each ash is in contact with all these species. Each tree has special "super powers" - alder for nitrogen fixation and oak for stimulating fungal networks etc. The logic behind this network is based on recent evidence using radioactive elements that trees of the same AND different species share resources with each other. This promotes much healthier trees including immune systems to fight the great foe.


I'll see how I get on and post any sightings of the ash plague.

Thank you Taxxus for sharing your planting method, I concur that Ash grows best in mixtures, in fact when Dad and I were first planting we encouraged our forester to allow us to mix the hardwoods, we were partially successful, and as a result much of our ash is in mixed stands although perhaps not as intimately mixed as you suggest. However we do have 2 blocks of monoculture ash, in particular the youngest ash plantation is a large single species block.

As the disease progresses through this monoculture and I remove infected stems we will be replacing these with other species, can you suggest "particular" species which grow well with ash? I have noticed at home that in the places where the mixture of hardwoods is most intimate the plants are growing best. I was intending to use walnut, and cherry as replacements (to mitigate the economic hit with more valuable species), it seems a rethink may be necessary. The site with the young infected ash monoculture is not really suited to either alder or willow. Oak, and Birch will be fine though.

tim

timfromtang

Hi All,
I have cleared a polytunnel, and could use it to conduct a screening experiment, I have access to infective material (from the leaf litter in our infected stand)
the problem i face is how to source a broad variety of different ash,
just buying a couple of thousand plants from none so hardy or such would seem pointless to me

any suggestions,,,,
tim

taxusbaccata

timfromtang wrote: »

Thank you Taxxus for sharing your planting method, I concur that Ash grows best in mixtures, in fact when Dad and I were first planting we encouraged our forester to allow us to mix the hardwoods, we were partially successful, and as a result much of our ash is in mixed stands although perhaps not as intimately mixed as you suggest. However we do have 2 blocks of monoculture ash, in particular the youngest ash plantation is a large single species block.

As the disease progresses through this monoculture and I remove infected stems we will be replacing these with other species, can you suggest "particular" species which grow well with ash? I have noticed at home that in the places where the mixture of hardwoods is most intimate the plants are growing best. I was intending to use walnut, and cherry as replacements (to mitigate the economic hit with more valuable species), it seems a rethink may be necessary. The site with the young infected ash monoculture is not really suited to either alder or willow. Oak, and Birch will be fine though.

tim

Hi Tim,

I would guess that Oldtree has really good knowledge on what trees work with each other.

My small plantation is only put in this spring and autumn 2016 but I have been watching local trees for a while. I have all the native Irish species except for Juniper (I found it growing wild 1km away just recently) with a section that is Ash heavy (the 2x2 ash + 1 supporting matrix zone). I would use native species where possible as all these species evolved in each others presence. Local provence as much as possible too - I heard it said that the genetic advantages of a tree can be as specific as within 20km to a region.

Again Im just thinking out loud as I have little practical experience - just applying plant biology theory.

It would be a great experiment for each poster to collect key seeds in autumn from around their county and transfer to a nominated grower. Forget about the risk of transmitting Chalara its here already.

timfromtang

Hi Taxxus,
did you get my PM, your plant biology Theory would be useful to me. I have only the basic grounding i recieved in ucd studying forestry.

As for the sharing of ash keys between posters, I'm all for it, I will plant any I receive, as i posted earlier i have cleared a polytunnel for the purpose, and will collect locally (within 20km as you suggest) this autumn. I also plan to recruit a couple of forester friends to help with this.

I'd suggest it would be really good if an organisation like UCD forestry dept, or perhaps WIT forestry dept, or any other biology dept in any university,
could team up with the GAA (who have a motive to save the ash for the hurl, and a club in every parish, and who might respond to and participate in a trial run by a university),
or indeed with the general public (some small fraction of which actually seem to care for trees as i do)
to organise a nationwide seed collection this autumn, and to run a subsequent trial.

pm me for my address

tim
tis too windy for thinning today

Vivat Fraxinus

taxusbaccata

A nice TED talk about tree exchanging nutrients:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un2yBgIAxYs&t=7s

timfromtang

taxusbaccata wrote: »

A nice TED talk about tree exchanging nutrients:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un2yBgIAxYs&t=7s

more from Suzanne Simard, ...........
http://www.peoplebehindthescience.com/dr-suzanne-simard/
http://profiles.forestry.ubc.ca/person/suzanne-simard/

it is a shame that all of her research papers are behind paywalls (not available to the general public without payment)

tim

TheBody

timfromtang wrote: »

more from Suzanne Simard, ...........
http://www.peoplebehindthescience.com/dr-suzanne-simard/
http://profiles.forestry.ubc.ca/person/suzanne-simard/

it is a shame that all of her research papers are behind paywalls (not available to the general public without payment)

tim

If there is a particular paper you would like to read, let me know and I MIGHT be able to get it for you. No promises, but I'll try my best.

99nsr125

timfromtang wrote: »

Hi All,
I have cleared a polytunnel, and could use it to conduct a screening experiment, I have access to infective material (from the leaf litter in our infected stand)
the problem i face is how to source a broad variety of different ash,
just buying a couple of thousand plants from none so hardy or such would seem pointless to me

any suggestions,,,,
tim

Would you like keys or cuttings or other materials
I'll collect whatever you want off our farm, seal and send it on to you

timfromtang

Pat Daly seems to be the man to contact
http://www.gaa.ie/hurling/news/gaa-ash-society-begin-harvesting-hurley-butts/
The Gaa has an Ash society!
there is funding available from DAFM
perhaps............
tim

Danzy

The Woodpecker is making a return to Ireland after a several hundred year hiatus.

The Irish for a Woodpecker is/was Snag breac.

The disappeared here when the rowdy neighbours cleared out the woodlands, the magpie came to Ireland around the 1640s and the name was transferred over to them.

The Emerald Borer isn't in Ireland, is it.

woollyman

Generally if you contact an author of a journal article they will be able to email you a copy of the requested article.

timfromtang

woollyman wrote: »

Generally if you contact an author of a journal article they will be able to email you a copy of the requested article.

Many thanks for this
There are many articles i would like to read,
tim.

timfromtang

Hi All,


Further to the dual approaches of trialling thousands of seedlings in an infective environment in a polytunnel, and multitudes of smaller diy trials by ordinary folk around infected trees in the wider environment.

A third possibility occurs to me,
research from Canada from Suzanne Simard and others would indicate that mycelial relationships between related trees, mother daughter etc, unrelated trees of the same species, and indeed even interspecies underground exchanges, all contribute to ecosystem and plant resilience and health. If help can be recruited from that quarter, then it may be possible to design a trial of ash material planted within cadres of other species, Perhaps beneath "mother" trees, we may discover beneficial interspecies relationship which help Ash to resist the infection.

I have mentioned biochar in the past, and indeed have made some and will be trialling it here in my own infected stand. Although I am skeptical as there is a lot of "hype" around this area. There are however a couple of sound enough things that adding biochar to the soil may achieve, and worldwide forests co-exist with fire in a large number of ecosystems, surface area, and nutrient retention (note it is not sequestered, but biologically available to mycelia and such) to mention a couple.
I am glad to report that i have had positive conversations with some folk, it seems that it may be possible to organise a vast collection of ash material for trialling.

I am also glad to report i have had positive conversations with some folk, and hope to meet others next week, place people expertise communication, dots are being joined.

tim

as fuinseóg a rinneadh an camán, Fuinseóg abú

Vivat Fraxinus

SILVAMAN

re Mycelia

I've dipped trees in a solution of mycorrhizal fungi-the name escapes me, though NOVOZYMES ? comes to mind-and the difference in tree growth between treated and untreated was staggering.

taxusbaccata

SILVAMAN wrote: »

re Mycelia

I've dipped trees in a solution of mycorrhizal fungi-the name escapes me, though NOVOZYMES ? comes to mind-and the difference in tree growth between treated and untreated was staggering.

I was looking into mycorrhizal inoculants when I came across this:

http://www.gardenmyths.com/mycorrhizae-fungi-inoculant-products/

The entire site is quite cynical of products aimed at gardeners - it has a nature will sort itself out policy which is usually true...

SILVAMAN

taxusbaccata wrote: »

I was looking into mycorrhizal inoculants when I came across this:

http://www.gardenmyths.com/mycorrhizae-fungi-inoculant-products/

The entire site is quite cynical of products aimed at gardeners - it has a nature will sort itself out policy which is usually true...

I'm a forester not a gardener....I know my stuff.
If it ain't there, it's probably never going to come in of its own accord.
30 cm hazel after 2 years 180 cm minimum as opposed 70-85 cm untreated. The product was composed of 45 fungal innoculants.
Your article refers to gardens.
Forestry is inherently different.

timfromtang

well said silvaman,
It is my understanding that we are short of many of the mycorrhizal species that would have in the past been present due to the very severe deforestation that our little green island has suffered over the last 800 years.

It is my hope that we can change this.
reforest our island and reintroduce where necessary the mycorrhiza that trees need to thrive.

tim

taxusbaccata

SILVAMAN wrote: »

I'm a forester not a gardener....I know my stuff.
If it ain't there, it's probably never going to come in of its own accord.
30 cm hazel after 2 years 180 cm minimum as opposed 70-85 cm untreated. The product was composed of 45 fungal innoculants.
Your article refers to gardens.
Forestry is inherently different.

Silvaman, would you recommend any particular product?

I see these:
https://www.thenutrientcompany.com/product/tnc-mycorrmax/
http://www.rootgrow.co.uk/shop/rootgrow-professional-2-5ltr.html
http://www.dragonfli.co.uk/product/ps-01d

Above products can be slow with the details. strain numbers etc...

Or make your own?
I have heard that collected local fresh mushrooms in autumn and mixing them chopped with wood ash, sawdust, bark, leaf mulch for a few months will create a nice mix.

http://www.motherearthnews.com/organic-gardening/creating-your-own-mycorrhiza-zbcz1403

I might give the commercial products a try as I have heard great things about results with them.

SILVAMAN

taxusbaccata wrote: »

Silvaman, would you recommend any particular product?

I'll look for the product tomorrow and find out the name. Moved it somewhere in one of the sheds.

taxusbaccata

Interesting video on mycorrhyza and ultimately not using them:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tdo3wSHVhA

The top comment is interesting:

"...Put about a pound of rice in the stocking, tie a knot, dip it in honeyed or molasses water and plant deep enough to discourage squirrels and such...and wait. The fungi collected is local and correct for your area"

I have actually noticed in my new glasshouse that when I pour my kitchen waste bin liquid over the soil surface the fungal networks explode - I assume the spores in the soil are waiting to be fed. It is generally recommended to throw some soil into your kitchen waste bin while filling to get the fungi and bacteria started - makes sense.

10 Abandoned Practices and Products: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQpACENc3WE

What amazes me is that despite cloning, discovery of the Higgs Bosom and landing on the moon man does not understand some really basic soil mechanisms.

SILVAMAN

taxusbaccata wrote: »

Interesting video on mycorrhyza and ultimately not using them:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tdo3wSHVhA

The top comment is interesting:

"...Put about a pound of rice in the stocking, tie a knot, dip it in honeyed or molasses water and plant deep enough to discourage squirrels and such...and wait. The fungi collected is local and correct for your area"

I have actually noticed in my new glasshouse that when I pour my kitchen waste bin liquid over the soil surface the fungal networks explode - I assume the spores in the soil are waiting to be fed. It is generally recommended to throw some soil into your kitchen waste bin while filling to get the fungi and bacteria started - makes sense.

10 Abandoned Practices and Products: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQpACENc3WE

What amazes me is that despite cloning, discovery of the Higgs Bosom and landing on the moon man does not understand some really basic soil mechanisms.

Yes it amazes me that even though they can see back billions of years, they still cannot manage to cure the common cold.

taxusbaccata

SILVAMAN wrote: »

Yes it amazes me that even though they can see back billions of years, they still cannot manage to cure the common cold.

The cure for the common cold and influenza is very much related to dieback and high concentrations of one organism - a lot less humans

blue5000

I think a lot of the research with biochar is flawed, here's why; the parent material needs to be from the same type of plant as the plant that is going to benefit from the char. The theory is that the char contains basic building blocks for plant hormones. So there is no point in using vegetable waste as parent material for char if you want trees to benefit, and vice a versa.

Tim if if you want ash to benefit, use ash for the char.

http://www.carbolea.ul.ie/files/Biochar%20Swift%20Hayes%20Chemrawn.pdf

timfromtang

blue5000 wrote: »

I think a lot of the research with biochar is flawed, here's why; the parent material needs to be from the same type of plant as the plant that is going to benefit from the char. The theory is that the char contains basic building blocks for plant hormones. So there is no point in using vegetable waste as parent material for char if you want trees to benefit, and vice a versa.

Tim if if you want ash to benefit, use ash for the char.

http://www.carbolea.ul.ie/files/Biochar%20Swift%20Hayes%20Chemrawn.pdf

thanks, it is what i am doing with leaf litter and smaller woody material from the infected stems I am removing.

I use an old metal bath for the charring, using a similar principle to the Kontiki kiln, or open pit burning. The principle is simple, bash the crap out of the fire so the char falls low where oxygen is limited, keep the fire burning fiercely on top to ensure oxygen is consumed before reaching the lower layers and provide the necessary heat to maintain the pryolisation at the right temperature (circa 700C is my aim), add a new thin layer of fuel as soon as you see ash forming on the blackened sticks that are flaming. Add fuel little and often, constant supervision is necessary, but a batch only takes 2-3 hours, quench with water when done, and who does not love playing with fire!

Thus far my infection seems light, I am thinning a section of ash monoculture planted in 2003 at the moment, and I am seeing a low frequency of infected plants. I am removing one rack in 8 for access (3300 plants/Ha atm) just now and have only done 2 and a bit racks, so it is early to quote the frequency, but i have thus far seen only one infected plant.

tim

as fuinseog a rinneadh an camán, Fuinseog abú

timfromtang

@ taxusbaccata, I take it you did note my comment on the shortage of naturally available mycorrhizal symbionts for forest trees in Ireland due to severe deforestation, high phosphate levels from agriculture, and more.

However I am sure the "naturally" occurring varieties are still here in small patches, perhaps this opens a further path that may help with positively influencing the outcome of the current problems we face, in forestry and elsewhere.

as fuinseog a rinneadh an camán,
Fuisneóg Abú

tim

As the Ash said to the Oak when the Axe came into the forest, "That handle was once one of us"

timfromtang

hi all,
further progress has been made over the weekend on national screening trials to screen for resistance, folk who feel that they may have something to offer the "Team" please will you pm me.

tim

timfromtang

Hi all,
Gerry Douglas of Teagasc was kind enough to share this book with me, I thought i would further share it here, it is free to download.

Quote"
An important book-- free online summarises the research underway for the past 10 years in Europe. We can expect the same or similar statistics in the next few years in terms of trees infected and the continued increase in tree mortality with each passing year. the chapter from Germany is especially informative. The full book can be downloaded at :
http://www.slu.se/globalassets/ew/org/inst/mykopat/forskning/stenlid/dieback-of-european-ash.pdf

"

I hope folks that this will help us in our understanding and in deciding how to progress from here.

Best regards
Tim
Fuisneóg Abú

timfromtang

I am reading the book, this on page 53 from the austrian chapter is worrying indeed.......

Quote"
Observations in forests are less encouraging because many initially healthy or only slightly damaged ash
trees subsequently decline (Kirisits and Freinschlag 2015). Experience in Grafenegg estate does not indicate
any lasting resistance or tolerance. There is certainly variation in the health condition among ash trees, and
disease progression varies from year to year (likely influenced by annual weather fluctuations), but it appears
that less damaging years do not suffice for substantial recovery of the trees. In Grafenegg, initially more
tolerant trees were documented with photographs. However, while the disease progressed slower on these
trees, it has nevertheless in the meantime killed them as well. This indicates that the share of trees with
durable high resistance in environments where the infection pressure of H. fraxineus is intense is likely much
lower than the 1 to 3 % frequently mentioned in the literature (Husson et al. 2012, Kjaer et al. 2012,
McKinney et al. 2014, Chandelier et al. 2016), if such trees exist at all.
end quote"


I may need to rethink my expectations of 1-10% of individuals showing resistance and surviving past 10 years hence, and my expectations of some portion of a crop of "finished" ash trees. It would seem that reducing the infection pressure would my only hope of reducing the impact, especially on those sections of monoculture we have here. Indeed Breaking the disease life cycle by preventing sex for fungus on the forest floor or similar if only locally on treated sites, would this have an impact?

Anyone know of a big tractor powered "hoover" with an inceration section to prevent spore migration through the filters??

I used to be an engineer, I've built things like a wooden bicycle, electric bike, (35 kph and 300 km/euro electricity), a vegetable oil powered combined heat and power plant producing electricity and hot water (overall efficiency in excess of 85% considering heat and electricity output) .....

Nowadays with rapid internet communication, worldwide rapid development is possible, folk will help,

Would anyone here like to attempt to build such a device with me......
A tractor or engine powered hoover, would need to ensure that no infective material passed through, would need to produce "char" from the hoovered material. perhaps a steam powered device might suit better, I would like to remove infective material from the forest floor, before subjecting it to heat treatment in order to avoid unnecessary killing of other things on the forest floor as this would clearly be counterproductive in terms of reducing ecosystem resilience.

such a device could be used in monoculture plantations, and around trees selected as stems with a future as they will have a clear area in the canopy surrounding the crown in most cases.

Does the necessary engineering experience locally exist on this island for multiple devices "open sourced" to be built quickly, I'd suggest it may..........

Is this a job, a "Volunteer Army" to tackle ash dieback could do?
Could it be possible that hundreds if not thousands of folk nationwide would co-operate in this way? Imagine the commercial potential going forward, we could be the island of the ASH, we-d have the european market, sighing after the glut (50% drop in the price of ash worldwide so far i heard) then crying during the scarcity, them tah-Dahh (howyra mister, would ya like a few ash planks sir, tis only *****euro a cubic foot sir, can't be had on the market worldwide anywhere esle sir, tis the finest quality irish hardwood, grown on the best land in the world for growing trees sir, tis the instrument of choice for our national game sir, ............)

This may be naive rhetoric or it may not, it requires imagination to turn problems into solutions, we'll require ways to ensure all participants benefit, but is it conceivable or simply possible that enlightened micro management by thousands of folk on ash country wide could have an impact??


Perhaps as i read further through the book, it will become clear that such a device would be unhelpful in mitigating the impact on our crop of ash.

Discusss please............

and indeed I would encourage all with an interest or stake in Ash Dieback to read, imagine and think and discuss,,,,

I WILL NOT GIVE UP HOPE
WITHOUT HOPE AND IMAGINATION ALL MAY BE LOST

again here is the piece

Quote"
Observations in forests are less encouraging because many initially healthy or only slightly damaged ash
trees subsequently decline (Kirisits and Freinschlag 2015). Experience in Grafenegg estate does not indicate
any lasting resistance or tolerance. There is certainly variation in the health condition among ash trees, and
disease progression varies from year to year (likely influenced by annual weather fluctuations), but it appears
that less damaging years do not suffice for substantial recovery of the trees. In Grafenegg, initially more
tolerant trees were documented with photographs. However, while the disease progressed slower on these
trees, it has nevertheless in the meantime killed them as well. This indicates that the share of trees with
durable high resistance in environments where the infection pressure of H. fraxineus is intense is likely much
lower than the 1 to 3 % frequently mentioned in the literature (Husson et al. 2012, Kjaer et al. 2012,
McKinney et al. 2014, Chandelier et al. 2016), if such trees exist at all.
end quote"

tim
Fuisneóg Abú

timfromtang

this from page 55 in the book posted above from the austrian chapter would seem to justify my decision to say no thank you to the forest service offer of a grant aided reconstitution based on the actions they required in their SAP.

Quote"
Removing
all ash trees including also healthy-looking ones bears the risk that potentially resistant genotypes are
eliminated forever from the populations.
end quote"

tim
Vivat Fraxinus.

timfromtang

quote:
It is therefore worth to think about complementary and
alternative strategies for the conservation of this indispensible tree species. Experiences from Dutch elm
disease (DED) may help in this respect. Elms have not become extinct completely, mainly because of three
factors. First, in Dutch elm disease a vector is required. Elm bark beetles (Scolytus spp.) carry the pathogen
from tree to tree. When the disease had resulted in a considerable “dilution” of trees across the landscape,
occasionally healthy elm trees were found. These trees are unlikely to be resistant but presumably represent
“disease escapes”, because of decreasing sizes of bark beetle populations and large distances for the beetles
to cover to reach host trees (Kirisits 2013b).

it may be interesting to find out in the future
whether at low densities of ash trees and less available inoculum, the disease can still strike as severely.
end quote

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
the austrians will be good customers if'n we can manage to continue to grow ash here "indispensable tree species indeed"

"Less available inoculum", would seem to support the "hoover" from a couple of posts ago.

tim
Fuisneóg Abú

timfromtang

Quote"
Complete evacuation of the species, e.g., to southern European locations outside of the present distribution
range of F. excelsior, may also be discussed. Mountains in Southern Spain, Southern Italy including Sicily,
Southern Greece and Southern Turkey may provide suitable habitats. It is of course difficult to imagine large
quantities of ash being exported from disease-affected areas, and creating a disease-free environment for
them “in exile” would be a great challenge. A limited amount of plantations may, however, serve the purpose
of conservation. Examples of “exiled” tree populations that can be kept free of diseases do exist, e.g., with
apple trees (Malus domestica) in the mountains in Jordan (Salem et al. 2005) and with Ulmus spp. planted for
ex situ conservation and breeding purposes in areas in Spain where elms do not occur naturally (Kirisits
2013b).
end quote"

tim

timfromtang

from the swiss research, an argument that removing leaf litter nationwide under ash could have an impact

quote:
Subsequent experiments showed that the fungus can survive
inside petioles under field conditions for two sporulation seasons and withstand drought for at least three months
(Gross and Holdenrieder 2013, Gross et al. 2014a). Both findings were later confirmed by Kirisits (2015)
whereas he was able to show that the fungus can survive inside petioles under natural conditions for even five
sporulation seasons after the leaves have been shed.
end quote"

note that these infected petioles can produce VAST quantities of spores

tim
Long live the Ash

timfromtang

from germany this...........

Resistant appearing ash trees should never be felled, because it is
essential for the conservation of ash to allow these trees to reproduce.



tim

timfromtang

from denmark, the danes retain hope ....................

Continued international sharing of results, experience, thoughts and
ideas is important. Our expectation is that ash will also be an important species in the European forests in a
hundred years’ time.
end


tim

Oldtree

The resistance to ash dieback noted in some of the trees mentioned in the book which then decline and die may well be down to genetic componants that allow a specific tree to compartmentalise the wounds caused, more rapidly than normal, allowing function to continue for a while longer, thus giving the false impression of resistance.

What caught my eye is a possible maximum survival time of the fungus, 5 cycles. How long can the fungus survive after all the ash is gone?

Can viable seed from a wide selection of wild sites in Ireland be collected, sterilised and cold stored until such time as the fungus has died out and a safe period has passed?

Perhaps this seed collection for storage could run in tandem with the pollytunnel experiment to find resistant trees, a two pronged approach. There is no doubt that the rarity of ash in the future will add value to any ash crop post ash dieback.

It is said of an oak,
300 years to grow
300 years to mature
300 years to die.

It could be said of an ash
100 years to grow
100 years to mature
100 years to die.

Time is a trees friend.

SILVAMAN

taxusbaccata wrote: »

I was looking into mycorrhizal inoculants when I came across this:

http://www.gardenmyths.com/mycorrhizae-fungi-inoculant-products/

The entire site is quite cynical of products aimed at gardeners - it has a nature will sort itself out policy which is usually true...

Finally found the product M-Roots
http://www.bfgsupply.com/order-now/product/125/307631/lebanon-roots-25lb-m-roots-3-3-3-biological-plant-food

timfromtang

Greetings folks,
I had a good meeting last week with senior figures from the GAA and Teagasc, and a few foresters.

Action is being taken,
I've made a few new video's on the subject,,,, more to come,
for the moment I would be most grateful if folk would watch, share, like, comment etc,
please share on facebook or whatever social media,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJ_wAHWal2s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz847eu76kQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8IU8Tf_Deo

many thanks
tim

Fuisneóg Abú