Are euro notes really not accepted on buses?

monkeypants

Caught the 41 into town at approximately 20:10 on Saturday night. There were two of us, so the fare was €5.30. I didn't have too many coins, so I got on, stated my destination and dumped a €5 note along with 30c into the slot. The driver said that notes weren't accepted and didn't issue a ticket, mumbling something about an inspector. The missus and I went and sat down.

I don't think I've ever attempted to pay a bus fare using paper money before. I know that no change is given out, but why would paper money not be accepted?

By the way, why can't the refund stubs be used to pay for a fare, even if from earlier on the same day?

L1011

DB refuse to take notes, claiming they'll jam the autofare machines. I'm not sure where this stands as goes the laws on accepting legal tender.

I suspect they'll give the same excuse for not taking change receipts.

Losty Dublin

monkeypants wrote: »

Caught the 41 into town at approximately 20:10 on Saturday night. There were two of us, so the fare was €5.30. I didn't have too many coins, so I got on, stated my destination and dumped a €5 note along with 30c into the slot. The driver said that notes weren't accepted and didn't issue a ticket, mumbling something about an inspector. The missus and I went and sat down.

I don't think I've ever attempted to pay a bus fare using paper money before. I know that no change is given out, but why would paper money not be accepted?

By the way, why can't the refund stubs be used to pay for a fare, even if from earlier on the same day?

Dublin Bus hasn't taken notes on services for well over a decade as the auto fare boxes accept coins only. Were the boxes to accept notes, it would be nigh impossible to check for forged notes until it's well too late. It's their call if they accept notes or not, there isn't any legal obligation to accept notes or change receipts on board either.

28064212

MYOB wrote: »

DB refuse to take notes, claiming they'll jam the autofare machines. I'm not sure where this stands as goes the laws on accepting legal tender.

AFAIK*, the laws on accepting legal tender only really come into play if the service/goods have already been provided, e.g. in a restaurant where you've eaten before you pay. A restaurant must accept legal tender to settle a debt. However, if you set up a shop selling acorns where you only accept conkers as payment, that's perfectly legal.

*IANAL

monkeypants

MYOB wrote: »

DB refuse to take notes, claiming they'll jam the autofare machines. I'm not sure where this stands as goes the laws on accepting legal tender.

I suspect they'll give the same excuse for not taking change receipts.

The Swords Express manages to take notes just fine when offered. No change is given. As for the change receipts, they have a motive not to accept them; by making it difficult to redeem the receipts, a lot of receipted get chucked/lost and the change is never collected.

Losty Dublin

monkeypants wrote: »

As for the change receipts, they have a motive not to accept them; by making it difficult to redeem the receipts, a lot of receipted get chucked/lost and the change is never collected.

It's your money to redeem so it's your loss if you don't reclaim it back. Dublin Bus don't make a cent from unclaimed change receipts; the money isn't included as income or cash at hand for them. Where they do make money is from not having drivers injured from assaults or having income stolen at robberies.

JaMarcus Hustle

28064212 wrote: »

[SIZE="1"]*IANAL[/SIZE]

You WHAT!?! :eek:

28064212

JaMarcus Hustle wrote: »

You WHAT!?! :eek:

*IANAL

*I Am Not A Lawyer

Grolschevik

JaMarcus Hustle wrote: »

You WHAT!?! :eek:

And here's me thinking it was only my mind worked like that!:D

dfx-

MYOB wrote: »

DB refuse to take notes, claiming they'll jam the autofare machines. I'm not sure where this stands as goes the laws on accepting legal tender.

I suspect they'll give the same excuse for not taking change receipts.

Since Cityswift came in the early-mid 90s I think. Certainly my local Tallaght route was moved to auto fare in 1996. I presume the first was the 25s as per the RTE report on Youtube or the 39s when they moved to Cityswift in 1993(?)

juan.kerr

Ridiculous. Next they'll be expecting us to use a special currency to avail of their services. One that you can only get at their headquarters between the hours of 10:00 and 12:00 on the first and third Tuesday or every third month.

Any they wonder why the passanger figures are falling.

Shinaynay

juan.kerr wrote: »

Ridiculous. Next they'll be expecting us to use a special currency to avail of their services. One that you can only get at their headquarters between the hours of 10:00 and 12:00 on the first and third Tuesday or every third month.

Any they wonder why the passanger figures are falling.

What??!

juan.kerr

Shinaynay wrote: »

What??!

This is the same crowd that run adverts saying how easy it is to use their service compared to commuting by car, yet they don't accept notes?

At first I assumed the OP was trying to pay with Dollars or Sterling or something exotic. But not accepting Euro notes?

Ridiculous.

juan.kerr

monkeypants wrote: »

By the way, why can't the refund stubs be used to pay for a fare, even if from earlier on the same day?

Because that would give customers the idea that they are customer friendly.

Better to enforce a user unfriendly policy of users.

Victor

monkeypants wrote: »

Caught the 41 into town at approximately 20:10 on Saturday night. There were two of us, so the fare was €5.30. I didn't have too many coins, so I got on, stated my destination and dumped a €5 note along with 30c into the slot. The driver said that notes weren't accepted and didn't issue a ticket, mumbling something about an inspector. The missus and I went and sat down.

What you need is a Leap Card www.leapcard.ie

I don't think I've ever attempted to pay a bus fare using paper money before. I know that no change is given out, but why would paper money not be accepted?

Paper money is a much greater target for thieves. There would generally be a greater demand for change if notes were accepted.

By the way, why can't the refund stubs be used to pay for a fare, even if from earlier on the same day?

To stop people printing their own or stealing them from charities.

Shinaynay wrote: »

What??!

He's being humourous /sarcastic.

KD345

juan.kerr wrote: »

This is the same crowd that run adverts saying how easy it is to use their service compared to commuting by car, yet they don't accept notes?

At first I assumed the OP was trying to pay with Dollars or Sterling or something exotic. But not accepting Euro notes?

Ridiculous.

Nothing ridiculous about it at all.

Dublin Bus drivers were subjected to some horrific attacks in the 90s to the point where there were serious assaults and robberies on a nightly basis. Buses were pulled from areas after dark leaving massive areas of Dublin without a service. The solution was to provide driver security screens on vehicles and eventually Autofare was introduced.

Dublin Bus advertise it very clearly on their website, on board buses and at some stops that they only accept coins. You mention their advertisements, however these point out that you don't need to use coins/physical cash, as they accept Leap card. You can't use notes at parking meters either - the location of their TV ads.

hoodwinked

KD345 wrote: »

Nothing ridiculous about it at all.

.

i can see how it would seem that way when bus eireann run city services in every other city where drivers interact with passengers take notes/coins...etc give change and are able to do so without incident.

LXFlyer

Whatever anout other cities, Dublin had an exceptionally serious problem, and what KD345 states is quite correct. The regularity of vicious assaults on Dublin Bus drivers was reaching epidemic proportions as were the resulting absenteeism levels as more and more drivers went on sick leave.

Something had to be done and thus we have the system we have today. While not ideal from a customer perspective, this system provides drivers with a safe place of work, something the directors of a company are obliged to do.

Notes/other paper would frankly get caught up in the machine, and frankly it is not as if there are not enough prepaid options available for everyone these days, between LEAP an the extensive range of prepaid passes.

I still cannot understand why so many Irish people still insist on paying cash despite the myriad of cheaper prepaid options available.

As for the change money - it is ring fenced and does not form any part of DB income, rather if unclaimed it is used after a certain number of years for charitable purposes.

Cookie_Monster

DB come up with the usual irish solution, punish the majority with stupid rules rather than actually address the problem properly in conjuction with AGS.

They also make money via the interest on the unclaimed receipts btw

Lapin

Why not introduce the method used by TFL?

Make all buses cashless.

Only Oyster and Travelcards accepted.

Increase the cost of cash fares to encourage people to switch to Oyster.
(Flat fare in London is £2.35 regardless of distance travelled).

Cash tickets only available from vending machines and newsagents etc.

LXFlyer

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

DB come up with the usual irish solution, punish the majority with stupid rules rather than actually address the problem properly in conjuction with AGS.

They also make money via the interest on the unclaimed receipts btw

Stupid rules that the vast majority of people actually manage to cope with on a daily basis with no difficulty.

Stupid rules that made the workplace safe again.

I don't see that there was any other option, given the vast number of attacks (many involving syringes) on innocent drivers that were taking place.

But then again, what's someone's life worth?

Rock of Gibraltar

Lapin wrote: »

Why not introduce the method used by TFL?

Make all buses cashless.

Only Oyster and Travelcards accepted.

Increase the cost of cash fares to encourage people to switch to Oyster.
(Flat fare in London is £2.35 regardless of distance travelled).

Cash tickets only available from vending machines and newsagents etc.

Yeah I agree, not on the flat fare part though i'd prefer a tag tag off integrated journey system.

Unless you were completely new to Dublin I really don't see why you'd think that notes were accepted. It's been over ten years since the whole system went note and changeless. I think the last time I was on a Dublin Bus that would have taken notes was 1997.

LXFlyer

Lapin wrote: »

Why not introduce the method used by TFL?

Make all buses cashless.

Only Oyster and Travelcards accepted.

Increase the cost of cash fares to encourage people to switch to Oyster.
(Flat fare in London is £2.35 regardless of distance travelled).

Cash tickets only available from vending machines and newsagents etc.

London buses are only cashless in the city centre. That is going to end shortly as on-street ticket machines are being withdrawn.

Until LEAP is fully rolled out (it's being done in phases) anything like that will not be practical in Dublin. LEAP fares are already cheaper than cash fares.

Dravokivich

monkeypants wrote: »

MYOB wrote: »

DB refuse to take notes, claiming they'll jam the autofare machines. I'm not sure where this stands as goes the laws on accepting legal tender.

I suspect they'll give the same excuse for not taking change receipts.

The Swords Express manages to take notes just fine when offered. No change is given. As for the change receipts, they have a motive not to accept them; by making it difficult to redeem the receipts, a lot of receipted get chucked/lost and the change is never collected.

You're miss representing Dublin buses no change policy in your last line. They dont intentionally make it hard to get change. Its a reaction to driver safety concerns. And as far as I know, they are not allowed to use any unclaimed refunds as capitol. They have no interest in overcharging their passengers. Otherwise they would not consistently advertise their no change policy on their website / bus stops / outside on the buses themselves. Nor would they have shops throughout the city selling tickets. Many notices and incentives are provided so one is not inconvenienced by needing to get a refund. Only problem is that they don't have a proper representation of their fare stages.

Never been on a swords bus, but I'd hazard a guess they don't use the same equipment as Dublin bus when a passenger is paying a fare?

Victor

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

They also make money via the interest on the unclaimed receipts btw

You mean perhaps as much as €10,000 a year?

The change receipts probably cost that much in paper.

dowlingm

Toronto buses don't give change at all, even in the form of refundable receipts. You put your money or prepaid token into the drop box and it's not coming out again once the driver tips the trapdoor. On the other hand it's a single fare across the city so you should pretty much know how much you need heading to the stop. Pretty sure you can use notes though if buying more than one fare (say $6 for 2 cash fares) but I always use tokens or passes so am not 100pc sure.

lxflyer

lxflyer wrote: »

I still cannot understand why so many Irish people still insist on paying cash despite the myriad of cheaper prepaid options available.

Agreed. I haven't paid in cash at all since the last fare increase. It's either been Travel 90s or my Leap card. In fact, I couldn't even tell you what the current cash fares are.

monkeypants

Dravokivich wrote: »

Never been on a swords bus, but I'd hazard a guess they don't use the same equipment as Dublin bus when a passenger is paying a fare?

I'm no expert, but it looks the same to me. Big cuboid made of a mixture of what looks like metal and perspex. Drop the money, coins or notes, in the top and watch it drop. Driver presses something and the money is accepted. I get a printed ticket in return from another machine.

I didn't mean to open such a can of worms. I'm not a frequent bus user, I tend to cycle or drive more. Been living in Dublin since 1997 on and off. Always pay the fare, always in coins. Saturday night was the first time that I found myself short of change, but I thought "Hey, no problem. I'll just use this €5 note that forms part of our continental currency." Was not looking for change to be handed back, had the 30c to hand to pay the fare exactly. Seriously did not expect it to be a problem and never thought to look up a website to see if a major bus company in the capital city accepted money. There's nothing printed at my local bus stop.

Anyway, it's unlikely that this situation will arise again for me. Lesson learned. Not putting me off using the bus again in future if I need to, may need to stick a hand down the back of the sofa however.

Cookie_Monster

lxflyer wrote: »

I don't see that there was any other option, given the vast number of attacks (many involving syringes) on innocent drivers that were taking place.
But then again, what's someone's life worth?

other options: get AGS and the courts to do their jobs and arrest the scum. Put in place much harsher sentences as deterrents. Not DB's remit mind but they shouldn't be having to deal with such an issue in the first place either.

Still most other major cities can manage it, even BE can manage it IN DUBLIN

I still cannot understand why so many Irish people still insist on paying cash despite the myriad of cheaper prepaid options available.

because there are no useful options if you are an infrequent short hop unplanned customer. What's the point in paying for and carrying a leap card around if you only use 5-10 times a year, or a travel 90 if only going a couple of stages.

Cookie_Monster

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Still most other major cities can manage it, even BE can manage it IN DUBLIN

You could argue that BE aren't entering dangerous estates in Ballyfermot, Finglas or Tallaght where these incidents were happening.

afatbollix

Personally I think the use of all cash should be discouraged.

Even with change it can take minutes from the bus stopping to pick people up to it moving again. Even if it takes 15 seconds to do the process its 2 minuets for 8 people.

In London you are fined for paying cash so everyone uses oyster. It takes about 30 seconds to get a few people on board with none of the talking to driver and taking a ticket crap.

Maybe they should have machines at the bigger stops so you can prepay and just show the driver your ticket.

anncoates

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

DB come up with the usual irish solution, punish the majority with stupid rules rather than actually address the problem properly in conjuction with AGS.

They also make money via the interest on the unclaimed receipts btw

The majority of the population appear to grasp the concept of making sure they have sufficient change for a bus journey or going tp get some before they get on the hus.

Jimoslimos

Any plans to introduce NFC contactless payment systems, such as those now incorporated onto debit cards?

KD345

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

What's the point in paying for and carrying a leap card around if you only use 5-10 times a year, or a travel 90 if only going a couple of stages.

Isn't that the benefit of the Leap card? Its convenient for the occasional bus user who normally uses cash and its a bit cheaper too. I don't see the hassle with carrying a Leap card around in a wallet, much better than a pocket full of coins.

starviewadams

I've no problem with Autofare,keeps drivers safe and stops curtailments of services due to robberys,which was fairly regular in the mid 90's.

The 40 and 17a were two of the first four routes to implement Autofare.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZyzWF4OZiA

Oh and Nightlink services accept notes,paid a €5 note into the autofare box on Saturday night.

Vic_08

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

other options: get AGS and the courts to do their jobs and arrest the scum. Put in place much harsher sentences as deterrents. Not DB's remit mind but they shouldn't be having to deal with such an issue in the first place either.

How exactly is a bus company or a bus driver's union supposed to get the police and courts to deal with a problem they are otherwise unwilling and unable to?

I would have thought that the simple fact of the streets of Dublin being still littered with junkie scum 20 years on from the incidents that prompted the autofare system being introduced says it all. Irish society and government are still largely ignoring the ever increasing underclass who spend their entire existence ngaged in various forms of criminality.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Still most other major cities can manage it, even BE can manage it IN DUBLIN.

Lots of bus companies the world over use autofare/no change systems for both security and to streamline boarding, the majority of those do not offer any means of re-imbursing an overspend.

There are numerous operations in the UK that do not give change such as National Express West Midlands in Birmingham, Lothian Buses in Edinburgh, First Group in Glasgow, etc and in the USA plenty of city operators such as MTA in New York, CTA in Chicago or how about places like Singapore, Toronto as mentioned above and numerous others.

This is not the off-the-wall CIE thought up scheme that you are trying to make it out as, autofare systems were in widespread use in urban systems across the globe long before Dublin Bus adopted it and were introduced for similar reasons in those locations.

As usual people with little actual knowledge just love throwing around "facts" that they know little or nothing about, I suppose you know for a fact that Bus Eireann have never had drivers assaulted or robbed too, or is that another assumption based on ignorance.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

What's the point in paying for and carrying a leap card around if you only use 5-10 times a year, or a travel 90 if only going a couple of stages.

Either carry a small piece of plastic like the pile of others that live in your wallet or don't and carry enough coin to pay for your travel.

It is sickening that even after it has been explained the minor inconvenience of exact fare is there primarily to prevent serious assaults on people providing a public service. I can only assume that all of you hard nuts would have no problem going to your places of work with the knowledge that such attacks were a daily occourence and you stood a good chance of getting a knife or blood filled syringe being stuck in your face while sitting at your desk.

Capt'n Midnight

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Any plans to introduce NFC contactless payment systems, such as those now incorporated onto debit cards?

We'll all have to get tinfoil wallets

Pkiernan

KD345 wrote: »

Nothing ridiculous about it at all.

Dublin Bus drivers were subjected to some horrific attacks in the 90s to the point where there were serious assaults and robberies on a nightly basis. Buses were pulled from areas after dark leaving massive areas of Dublin without a service. The solution was to provide driver security screens on vehicles and eventually Autofare was introduced.

Dublin Bus advertise it very clearly on their website, on board buses and at some stops that they only accept coins. You mention their advertisements, however these point out that you don't need to use coins/physical cash, as they accept Leap card. You can't use notes at parking meters either - the location of their TV ads.

BS - how come buses in San Francisco can take dollar bills??? Those buses go thru some nasty areas.

It's the typical Irish attitude - no customer service from the public sector is perfectly acceptable.

Cookie_Monster

Vic_08 wrote: »

Either carry a small piece of plastic like the pile of others that live in your wallet or don't and carry enough coin to pay for your travel.

so pay a min of 10e in advance to save 15 or 20 cents. that's really worthwhile for a low usage customer is it?

Run_to_da_hills

juan.kerr wrote: »

Ridiculous. Next they'll be expecting us to use a special currency to avail of their services.

They do already.

Its called a smartcard.

Dravokivich

Pkiernan wrote: »

KD345 wrote: »

Nothing ridiculous about it at all.

Dublin Bus drivers were subjected to some horrific attacks in the 90s to the point where there were serious assaults and robberies on a nightly basis. Buses were pulled from areas after dark leaving massive areas of Dublin without a service. The solution was to provide driver security screens on vehicles and eventually Autofare was introduced.

Dublin Bus advertise it very clearly on their website, on board buses and at some stops that they only accept coins. You mention their advertisements, however these point out that you don't need to use coins/physical cash, as they accept Leap card. You can't use notes at parking meters either - the location of their TV ads.

BS - how come buses in San Francisco can take dollar bills??? Those buses go thru some nasty areas.

It's the typical Irish attitude - no customer service from the public sector is perfectly acceptable.

They have different machines. Like at a vending machine that accepts notes. It has a slot to slide in and then it rolls it through. You are not comparing like for like. Also, last time I was stateside, they didn't use dollar coins as far as I remember. They need then to accept notes.

For single journeys with correct fare, we don't.

MadsL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU9aVRn4vFI

Casinos have used these dropboxes for years. Easy to install on a bus, no?

afatbollix

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Any plans to introduce NFC contactless payment systems, such as those now incorporated onto debit cards?

I have a friend who is on the team for TFL for these cards. There will be no more oyster cards in London by 2015. These contact cards will take over.

So expect them in Dublin in 2025?

Dravokivich

MadsL wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU9aVRn4vFI

Casinos have used these dropboxes for years. Easy to install on a bus, no?

The person on the table will also be checking the notes aren't dodgy and then using that to get the money into a safe as soon as possible.

You can also end up with some fecker throwing the handle around.

It's not really needed because there is no standard Dublin Bus fare that costs enough for a note to be used.

Vic_08

Pkiernan wrote: »

BS - how come buses in San Francisco can take dollar bills??? Those buses go thru some nasty areas.

They take ONE dollar bills and coin only and give no change. Just like in Dublin the money is deposited into a cash safe that the driver has no access to.

Pkiernan wrote: »

It's the typical Irish attitude - no customer service from the public sector is perfectly acceptable.

No. THAT is the typical Irish attitude; moan about something with a perfectly logical explanation, something that is done the world over and then go on to berate one segment of Irish society for daring to expect to go to work in relative safety.

I ask again Mr keyboard warrior would you be happy to go to work knowing that you are likely at some point to be targeted for a violent assault?

Victor

MadsL wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU9aVRn4vFI

Casinos have used these dropboxes for years. Easy to install on a bus, no?

One problem is that Euro bank notes are not all the same size like US ones.

Most retail units use various types of dropboxes, indeed Autofare is a coin-only dropbox.

Dravokivich is right and the limited use would mean investment for limited return.

It might also mean encouraging (as opposed to facilitating) people to pay with notes, which given the rarity of fares over €5, isn't very useful.

Vic_08

MadsL wrote: »

Casinos have used these dropboxes for years. Easy to install on a bus, no?

In exchange for which casinos give out expensively manufactured chips with any number of security features to prevent fraud.

If DB started accepting notes how long do you think it would take someone to figure out that forging a change ticket to the value of €48 is 1000 times easier than forging a €50 note?

The ticket rolls and printers would have to be replaced with machines (not commercially available AFAIK) with embedded security and auditing features as well as the addition of note safes. Who exactly is going to pay for all of this in order to facilitate a tiny number of people who need to be accomodated while 99.999% of all passengers can organise themselves sufficiently to deal with the current setup?

AlekSmart

When all the self-pitying stuff is dealt with and the dry ice has evaporated,the reality is that Autofare is one of the few systems introduced by Dublin Bus which has worked....as it said on the tin.

As operated by BAC it is fully automated with the vaults being emptied mechanically into the cash-counting machines.

The presence of a note requires the machine to be stopped and the note retrieved before it falls into the hopper to be either shredded or to gum up the machine itself.

Before it's introduction,the ever upward spiral of cash-based attacks on Drivers AND Conductors threatened to end in DEATH.

The incidents were increasing in both frequency and ferocity and if anybody feels their convenience is worth another human being injured or killed then fair-enough,but don't expect other folks to be queuing up to facilitate that convenience.

I personally knew a driver who was robbed twice in the one day,by the SAME individual,who had been arrested,processed and bailed after the first incident,then went straight back out to rob another Bus before meeting his original target yet again...that was a total of THREE buses on the one day.

The vast majority of robberies were drug-fuelled,either by addicts strung-out and desperate for a fix or,far more dangerously by addicts high on some of the more crude mixes of chemicals which were (and still are) available.

One can compare Dublin with as many cities as one wishes,but it matters naught,as the Autofare System worked IMMEDIATELY and continues to work.

What might be a far better track to follow would be the very serious problem of cash-based attacks on Taxi Drivers,something which is a long running and worsening occurence left largely unreported due to a belief that publicity would only worsen the situation.

Slightly OT I know,but relevant nonetheless,was the decision forced upon Lothian Buses in Edinburgh relating to Notes in its Autofare system.

At one time it offered a £2.50 Day Ticket which the punter would purchase a pair of with a £5 note.

Dropping the £5 into the vault nicely folded.....so nicely folded that the Busdriver failed to notice it was only HALF a fiver....:D

This process was repeated again on another bus with the other half of the £5 which resulted in two "free" tickets then sold-on for £2 or whatever the market would bear along the streets.

Now,if tendering a note,the passenger much display it unfolded to the driver BEFORE entering it into the vault....You gotta admire them canny Scots !! :eek:

popebenny16

monkeypants wrote: »

The Swords Express manages to take notes just fine when offered. No change is given. As for the change receipts, they have a motive not to accept them; by making it difficult to redeem the receipts, a lot of receipted get chucked/lost and the change is never collected.

I went to catch a dublin "bus" the other day and I noticed that they have moved the door to the front!! I only noticed when, trying to get on in the usual manner I ended up rebounding off the engine. This is just another example of lazy civil servants in permanent and pensionable jobs with their unions and their allowances for watching the telly. I tried to pay the so-called "driver" - noticing that the conductor was proabaly asleep in the saloon - with my pounds shillings and pence and I had to sustain a vitriolic rude attack from him when my two bob note got caught up in his machine.

I am going onto the internet to complain about this.


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schemingbohemia

.....and the driver had the temerity to look askance at me when I asked to be dropped off at Nelson's Pillar!

Losty Dublin

schemingbohemia wrote: »

.....and the driver had the temerity to look askance at me when I asked to be dropped off at Nelson's Pillar!

No wonder. His horses were in a fierce foul mood all day and business is down since Queen Victoria died.