Could I get some advice please on a 3 week plan towards the DCM

Pacing Mule

Now the good news for anyone not familiar with me - I'm not one of those last minute loonies deciding 3 weeks out to run the marathon.

Here's my situation:

Novice runner - began running in January - signed up for the DCM and have been following the Hal Higdon Novice 1 plan along with the novices over on the mentored novices thread. I would have been aiming for a 5 hour time so nothing spectacular - more about finishing it than anything else.

About 2 and a half weeks ago I picked up an injury. Painful shin starting to leave me limping whilst running. It was runnable on but I felt it wise to stop for fear of putting me out of the DCM. I went to physio etc cutting a long story short at one point it was suspected I had a stress fracture but an X-Ray on Thursday has shown no sign of a fracture (preliminary result from the on duty doc) So no stress fracture but still sore enough to not be fully fit. It is runnable on - all be it with a bit of discomfort / pain. If I was fit enough now to cover 26 miles I'd happily run the marathon on it.

Went out for a 5k run on Friday - quite sore not just on the injured part but in general. As well as that needed a couple of walk breaks. The couple of weeks off have really taken a toll on the fitness level but in the normal scheme of things I know that the fitness level is still there and will come back rapidly if I can get back out running.

As it stands:

Total running this week: 5K (and it was a struggle)
Longest LSR so far: 16 miles - heading for 3 weeks ago.

I'd appreciate any thoughts / advice on a training plan for next 3 weeks. I'm caught in two minds on what to do - if I build back up gradually (which I think I need to as I'm not recovered enough to be diving straight back in) to a LSR of 20 miles (which I should have been doing this weekend if all went well with no injuries) I'll be doing it the week before the marathon - and basically having no taper at all. If on the other hand I join in the taper now as per the schedules I will have been weeks away from my last LSR which was also 4 miles shorter than the plan would like my max LSR to be

I know there will be some people who will be thinking that giving the marathon a miss is the best option and whilst I 100% respect and understand that opinion it's not an option for me. Obviously if I was a seasoned veteran things may be different but at a 5 hour target time I just need to get the fitness to the point I can make it around as opposed to get fit enough to run a really pressured sub 3 and a half etc. Plus I'm a stubborn git too

Thanks very much in advance for your thoughts / advice.

Kurt Godel

If you lost a load of fitness by two weeks off running, the last thing you need is more rest (just in case you're equating "taper" with "rest", as many novices do). Without knowing anything about your training background- if you say you are stubborn, you'll be able to get around in 5 hours. Start off from wherever your training schedule was last at, try for an 18-20 mile slow run, with about 10-7 days to go, and call it a taper from there. A few light short jogs in the 3 days before the race, and go from there. There'll be plenty of lads going under 5 hours with only 3 weeks non-GAA-type training, so the fact you can do 16 miles already stands in your favour.

Best of luck.

Tipp man running

Not a thread I'd normally reply to but have been watching the beginners thread and see your desperate to still go ahead and do it...so my twopence worth....

I'd forget about doing 20 miles with only 3 weeks to go, I don't think you'll gain anything from it and risk a lot....Further injury is a distinct possibility and it will be still in your legs no matter how slow you do it...i.e..say 12min miles which is 4hrs on your feet.....madness!

Looking at the plan I'd say jump back in on the taper, get yourself moving well and the legs feeling better. If you really want some distance, increase the mid week runs this week by 2 miles or increase the long run from 12 to a max of 14/16 miles......after that concentrate on tapering and been fresh and fit.

5hrs is along time out there, I feel your best chance of getting around with the least amount of pain is to go in fresh. If you have a decent running base before the injury you should be alright.

The very best of Luck.

rom

Kurt Godel wrote: »

with only 3 weeks non-GAA-type training

pconn062

Can I ask, how much discomfort is it causing you? Was the 5k that you struggled with due to the injury causing you pain? In my opinion (and I'm sure you don't want to hear this) if the injury is that bad, don't do the marathon. 26.2 miles over 5 hours on a injured leg will be nothing short of torture (and could put you off for life). My advice is to try a few longer runs, 10 mile +, and see how it feels. If it is too bad (and be honest with yourself) then don't let you're want to do a marathon stand in the way of common sense. If you intend to further a career in running then running a marathon on an injured leg could do serious long term damage which could affect your next year of running.
So, my first advice is try a few longer tester runs, decide and take it from there.
Best of Luck.

MrCreosote

Don't even consider going back in to a 20mile long run.

Personally I'd do max 12-14miles, on grass mostly and close to home so you can call it quits early if the leg hurts and a shorter one the weekend before the marathon. I'd also be making plans for walking some of the marathon, and contingency for where to drop out if its necessary.

(In reality I drop out now, get fully better and aim for a spring marathon)

brutes1

Id get out for as long a run as you can , whether is 16 miles plus or 3 hours, ideally by the end of this week, easy runs all week beforehand, its important you get the long miles in .

Pacing Mule

Thanks very much for the replies guys.

pconn062 wrote: »

Can I ask, how much discomfort is it causing you? Was the 5k that you struggled with due to the injury causing you pain? In my opinion (and I'm sure you don't want to hear this) if the injury is that bad, don't do the marathon. 26.2 miles over 5 hours on a injured leg will be nothing short of torture (and could put you off for life). My advice is to try a few longer runs, 10 mile +, and see how it feels. If it is too bad (and be honest with yourself) then don't let you're want to do a marathon stand in the way of common sense. If you intend to further a career in running then running a marathon on an injured leg could do serious long term damage which could affect your next year of running.
So, my first advice is try a few longer tester runs, decide and take it from there.
Best of Luck.

On a scale of 1-10 pain wise I'd say about a 4. The stopping was a combination of approx 10% pain from injury , 15% breathing and 75% tight aching muscles all over the legs which I'm putting down to the near complete down time.

ultraman1

im no expert......,but u arent gonna build up any more endurance over the next two weeks,id keep it easy and not go over 3hrs and wudnt worry over wat distance u get,but get it done this week......(,if u need a confidence booster do ur long run early morning and a very easyeasyeasy run/walk later dat evening)...

jinxremoving

Hi, in a similar enough boat myself. missed some training due to injury, aiming for 5 hours, longest run to date is 16 miles. I went out yesterday and did 12 miles and felt i hadnt lost too much fitness! so dont dispair. i am also stubborn

I am going to do 3 midweek runs of anywhere from 3-5 miles each and then a lsr of 14 -16 miles this weekend as my last big one. then similar midweek next week, lsr of 10-12, then a few short midweek runs and we're nearly there!

i doubt you'll make major gains from jumping back in at 20 & the risk of injuring yourself more is not worth it. I am afraid of injurying my ankle further at this stage and being out completely so the 20m is out for me in training. Best of luck!

Krusty_Clown

I know there will be some people who will be thinking that giving the marathon a miss is the best option and whilst I 100% respect and understand that opinion it's not an option for me. Obviously if I was a seasoned veteran things may be different but at a 5 hour target time I just need to get the fitness to the point I can make it around as opposed to get fit enough to run a really pressured sub 3 and a half etc. Plus I'm a stubborn git too

I hate to be the paragon of evil (Kurt Godel is normally better at this kind of thing ), but of course it's an option for you. Whether you want to hear it or not, it's probably the right option. In your long runs you've covered less than 2/3 of the race distance. That's the equivalent of training up to 8.7 miles for a half marathon, or 3.3kms for a 5k race. Doesn't sound quite so satisfying when you put it in terms of known distances. Sure, 16 miles is a long way, but 26.2 miles is a hell of a lot further. Secondly, it will have been 5 weeks since you covered this distance. After 5 weeks, how much of that endurance benefit do you think remains?

Finally, you are recovering from injury. What do you think the impact will be of putting that load on your already fragile system? Perhaps a bit extreme, but if you end up on crutches for the next few months with a genuine stress fracture, will it all have been worthwhile? Will you thank your stubbornness and determination then? If you were under-trained but healthy, I'd say give it a shot. If you were recovering from injury but well trained, I'd say it's risky; but perhaps you'll get away with it. But you are under-trained, recovering from injury and don't have a history of running. What advice would you give to someone else in that situation?

Pacing Mule

Hi Krusty

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I respect your views on the situation and what you say does make sense. To answer the question yeah I'd take a couple of months on crutches if needs be. I'm beyond determined to do this. (Yes I'm aware that's going to be seen as idiotic, stupid and £$%£ing dumb. Hell it is idotic stupid and £$%£ing dumb and you're right I wouldn't advise anyone else to do so to be fair )

This though means a lot to me. More than I've ever explained here on the forum. I'm not too happy with the injury of course but I'm looking to make the best preparation I can in the time left.

For what it's worth I went out for a 3.5 hour cycle today to keep up / test the cardio out whilst staying off the impact running to give things a better chance. Cardio wise I was grand - was getting in trouble at the end with muscles that aren't normally used in running that had 3+ hours of a test all of a sudden but I was happy with the fitness level (granted that cycling is a bit easier cardio than running)

My thoughts at the moment after weighing up the advice here (with apologies to those whose advice is to give it a miss) is to follow the taper program as set out in HH1 for the final 3 weeks but instead of the 12 miles due next Monday (I work weekends myself so Monday is my LSR day) I'm going to aim for 16 miles and give it the best shot I can on the big day.

I will report back in a few weeks with how things went - even if I do completely choke on the day.

Kurt Godel

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I hate to be the paragon of evil (Kurt Godel is normally better at this kind of thing )

Oi! Leave me out of it with the evils, did I even mention swimming or biking?;)

Anyway- you're side-stepping the question title. The lad says not doing it isn't an option, so swaddling him in cotton wool approach is out (ie the sensible risk-free don't-do-it option). Plus he's not racing it, only looking to get around in 5 hours. That's practically a walk (7kph being a walk), so endurance rather than stress will be the limiter. And endurance at that pace will be about stubborness, which he's got. There's loads of people who will be coming in around 5 hours on little training- this guy has a training program of sorts behind him, and has been given the all clear from the physio. He'll have more training done than probably 20% of finishers on the day. Worth the risk, IMO.

But obviously its down to the lad himself- if he finishes under 5 hrs injury free, it wouldn't negate your advice either KC.

Pacing Mule

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Oi! Leave me out of it with the evils, did I even mention swimming or biking?;)

Anyway- you're side-stepping the question title. The lad says not doing it isn't an option, so swaddling him in cotton wool approach is out (ie the sensible risk-free don't-do-it option). Plus he's not racing it, only looking to get around in 5 hours. That's practically a walk (7kph being a walk), so endurance rather than stress will be the limiter. And endurance at that pace will be about stubborness, which he's got. There's loads of people who will be coming in around 5 hours on little training- this guy has a training program of sorts behind him, and has been given the all clear from the physio. He'll have more training done than probably 20% of finishers on the day. Worth the risk, IMO.

But obviously its down to the lad himself- if he finishes under 5 hrs injury free, it wouldn't negate your advice either KC.

God damn it - I'm going as fast as I can

In all seriousness though - that's a factor I considered beforehand. I know I'm not at the fast end of the spectrum. I think it would be a different story if I was pushing for a sub 3.5 or 4 where you really need to be at full strength.

Krusty_Clown

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Anyway- you're side-stepping the question title. The lad says not doing it isn't an option

That's the first bit I don't agree with. Everyone has options, particularly when it comes to participating in a race. Sure, runner x may have collected money for charity. Suck on a bitter pill and re-schedule. Runner y has a baby on the way. Half the posters here have young kids and manage to compete just fine. Not competing on the day is the hard option, because it's your pride that takes a beating, instead of your legs.

My 18 year old nephew is signed up for Dublin marathon this year. His history of running is that he has previously run home from school twice. He spoke to his gym teacher, who told him it was good idea for his fitness, and gave him a training program to bring him up to 15 miles per week. So, if I can't persuade him (and his mother) that it's a really bad idea, I should probably just give up trying to serve up advice.

rom

The best lessons are learned the hard way

Pacing Mule

rom wrote: »

The best lessons are learned the hard way

rom

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

Was in reference to the 15 miles week peaking marathon plan.

Pacing Mule

rom wrote: »

Was in reference to the 15 miles week peaking marathon plan.

Sorry rom. My mistake.

nerraw1111

Anyone else waiting for Pageant Messiah to call Krusty uncle?

I did the DCM on very little training in 2009 (I thought then it was plenty!). Really enjoyed it but my legs were fvcked for weeks/months afterwards.

It was a great experience. Take your time, I felt fine at around 16 miles and then bang, I was fupped. So suppose look out for that.

rom

digger2d2

Could I get some advice please on a 3 week plan towards the DCM

When I saw this I thought it would be safer to give you medical advice

seanie_m

Oh dear! I just posted a very similar question over on the DCM improvers log thread - and now I come to read this...

So the furthest I've run is 15 miles, did it in 1:49 last weekend in the Eco2Run, and I'm also coming back from an injury that stopped me running for 6-8 weeks. I think I have about 3 weeks of training under the belt again now - some short midweek runs (3-6mi), that 15mi and two 13miles. I hadn't intended on running any further than this before the race itself, given the potential for wearing myself down or picking up a niggle. Am I being totally ridiculous to think I can run this?!

I'm coming from a bit of a different background than Pageant Messiah though, I'm 22 and I'd have been looking to run it ~3:15 before I got the injury. And while my running background wouldn't be all that extensive, I had been doing a lot of training in early summer, and ran the Connemara half in 1:33 back in April, but I was always just a gaelic footballer before that.

Sorry for hijacking your thread Pageant Messiah, I just got a bit of a land when I saw the kind of replies you have been getting!

MrCreosote

It depends on too many variables to be able to give a definite answer, particularly the injury. You can't compare recovery from a stress fracture and say knee pain from ITBS for example.

To go back to the OP, it's not clear whether or not the physio has given the all-clear. All there is is an apparently normal Xray. I'd be with Krusty on this one and pull out- the risk of ruining the injury and ending up with a long and protracted recovery is not something I'd personally be willing to take. But each to their own, and if the OP is willing to take that risk, who are we to second guess. I do think that there are ways of minimising the risk though- and doing a 20mile training run off little recent training so close to the event is not the way to do it.

rom

TFBubendorfer

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

.. and gave him a training program to bring him up to 15 miles per week. So, if I can't persuade him (and his mother) that it's a really bad idea, I should probably just give up trying to serve up advice.

I ran my first ever marathon, which also happened to be my first ever road race, on "training" that maxed out at 15 miles a week.

The last 8 miles were rather painful but I finished and I didn't get any injuries.

While I would not claim that to be the ideal preparation, it is perfectly doable.

kit3

Hi,

Had also posted a similar question on the DCM novice forum before I saw this :

Looking for a bit of LSR advice. Was following the HH intermediate plan and had reached the 20 mile LSR mark two weeks ago. A niggle I had in my ankle got worse so didn't do the 12 mile I had planned for the week after. Went to physio last Tuesday. While he wasn't exactly sure what was causing the problem he did need to re-align my hips and put something back in place in my upper back (result of a fall three weeks previously I think). He gave me the go ahead to run easy with the proviso that I come back if the niggle was still there. Since then (1 week) I have done a 3 mile, two 5 miles and a 6 mile - wanting to ease in gently to make sure I did not aggravate it. I had planned on doing a second 20 mile last weekend but missed that. I plan to do 10/12 tomorrow and then a longer run at the weekend. I suppose my question is really would it be mad to do 20 on Friday/Saturday (assuming the ankle is ok) ? Is there anything to be gained apart from the psychological effect or is it detrimental to do it this close to the marathon. Should I do 15/18 ? I really have no idea what to do and would really appreciate the advice please. Thanks. C

Should have added - aiming for 4.30 having done 4.59 last year !

Krusty_Clown

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

I ran my first ever marathon, which also happened to be my first ever road race, on "training" that maxed out at 15 miles a week.

The last 8 miles were rather painful but I finished and I didn't get any injuries.

While I would not claim that to be the ideal preparation, it is perfectly doable.

Thomas: you didn't miss the preceding 5-6 weeks of training due to injury, as per the above example. Here's some choice comments from your first two outings:

My first marathon was in October 2004 in Dublin (Ireland). I didn’t do much training, running just once a week and my longest run was just 15.5 miles, a whopping 11 miles shorter than the marathon. No wonder then that during the event I got absolutely knackered, suffered from cramps from 18.5 miles on, and struggled to finish it.

On my second attempt...being better prepared (though not exactly well trained), I was confident I would reach my goal. However, disaster struck 5 days before the event, when I was laid low by a stomach bug, could not eat anything for about 36 hours, and still had a splitting headache three days before the start. I felt better the next day, and, foolishly, decided to go ahead. Bad decision.

It is very easy to assume that all people are created equally and that what one person can achieve can easily be replicated by another person. A sample size of one does not equate to a general ruling (I could, for example, never complete 120+ miles on a track in 24 hours). If you had an opportunity to go back and talk to a younger Thomas, would you still say 'go ahead' or would you say 'train harder'? Would you still advise going ahead with Belfast, under-trained and unwell?

TFBubendorfer

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Thomas: you didn't miss the preceding 5-6 weeks of training due to injury, as per the above example. Here's some choice comments from your first two outings:

At least there are no contradictions between my two accounts

If you had an opportunity to go back and talk to a younger Thomas, would you still say 'go ahead' or would you say 'train harder'? Would you still advise going ahead with Belfast, under-trained and unwell?

I wouldn't do Belfast again under the same circumstances, but that's because I was clearly sick. As for being undertrained, I don't think it was a major issue. It's from these experiences that I learned that it's better to be properly prepared. I'm an idiot and have to learn things the hard way. Thus, no regrets.

tunguska

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

Novice runner - began running in January - signed up for the DCM and have been following the Hal Higdon Novice 1 plan along with the novices over on the mentored novices thread. I would have been aiming for a 5 hour time so nothing spectacular - more about finishing it than anything else.

As it stands:

Total running this week: 5K (and it was a struggle)
Longest LSR so far: 16 miles - heading for 3 weeks ago.

I know there will be some people who will be thinking that giving the marathon a miss is the best option and whilst I 100% respect and understand that opinion it's not an option for me. Obviously if I was a seasoned veteran things may be different but at a 5 hour target time I just need to get the fitness to the point I can make it around as opposed to get fit enough to run a really pressured sub 3 and a half etc. Plus I'm a stubborn git too

Thanks very much in advance for your thoughts / advice.

I'd have to agree with Krusty, theres always an option. When it comes right down to it you dont have to run the marathon. I understand you have a lot invested in this but sometimes you just gotta take the disappointment on the chin. It'll be a pisser on oct 29th for sure, but you'll get over it. Trust me you'd be surprised at how quickly a marathon is forgotten after the day itself, the world moves on very fast. And when it does you'll be in good shape to train and race again.
Its your choice but you gotta ask yourself what have you got to gain from running a marathon, not very well trained and injured? It'll be a miserable experience. You'd probably blag your way through a 10k or even a half marathon but if there was ever a race distance that exposed any weakness its the marathon. I've raced on injuries and its a horrible experience. I had no fond memories, just wanted to forget those races ever happened. So if you're running for sentimental reasons or hoping this will be an experience you'll treasure, I'd reconsider because when you get to the hill at 20miles and you're barely shuffling along, you'll just want to pull off to the side of the road, curl up into a ball and die peacefully. The marathon is a tough bastard even when you're fully fit, never mind struggling with a knock. I know your heart is saying one thing but in cases like this you gotta let your head rule.

sideswipe

A situation like this is always going to be divisive. When it comes to running, and marathon training in particular, I've found there are two ways to learn-

1. From experience (often times mistakes).
2. The advice and experience of others.

I was going to post something similar to Krusty and Tunguska in that I don't think its fair to say you don't have the option not to run OP, but I didn't because it would be hypocritical of me! I did DCM in 2009 as my first marathon, I did too much too soon, ended up injured and struggled around in pain and a time well above what I wanted. If I could go back and advise myself now I'm not sure I'd even listen to myself! I know the desire, determination and stubbornness to run a race (especially your first marathon) can be overpowering. My first marathon was a bitter/sweet one, I didn't get put off running but know the experience could so easily have put me off. I have even recently had some bad experience with training and racing and didn't take the advise I was offered resulting in more hardship than was necessary (I'm a slow learner). so for these reasons I'd advise learning from number 2 above and sit this one out. There are plenty of targets in the not too distant future that would suit. Also just because your not running on the day doesn't mean you can't be involved- you could volunteer or go out and support, soak up the atmosphere and take it forward to your new goal race.
Best of luck.

Agent J

OP, I really feel for your situation.

2 years ago i was in similar situation. Was running just about a year & had 2 half marathons under my belt. Signed up for the DCM 10 & was determined to do it.
Training had been going well. Was knocking out the Km & was getting really happy with knocking out long distances.

About 6/7 weeks out I was on a 20+ miler run & at about mile 19 or so... Slipped on some wet uneven canal path & went over on my ankle. I tried to continue but could barely manage to hobble forward. I abandoned the run & got a train home.

Did everything i was supposed to do (RICE) etc & booked an appointment with a doctor & then a physio. I basically told him what had happened & i'd do whatever it took to run the marathon. He treated me & he his opinion was to not do it. Both the Doc & the physio said similar things.

(Paraphrased)

"You probably could run it, you're stubborn enough. But you'd risk greater injury & be in pain for it. I know you *Really* want to do this but think with your head. There'll be other marathons & if you run intentionally on a injury you're risking knocking your self out for even longer"

This wasn't what i wanted to hear. With a couple of sessions Physio told me it'd be approx 3 months before healed. I was annoyed, upset.. you name it. A large part of me wanted to do it anyway just have the comeback to my name. This is what running was about right? You keep going no matter what because that's what you do.

Then i thought about it. I'd like to keep running for a long time for a whole bunch of reasons. I'd be really silly to risk that because i'm too stubborn to listen to the proper medical advice i'd been given. So i didn't run.

You do have the option to not run. It's not quitting when it's the smart thing to do.

Moral of the story? Ask the people who know (ie your physio/doctor) for their honest opinion & then make the decision with your head.


PS. Also, if you decide to not run.. for the love of gods don't lose the training you have done. Keep it up once it heals so you are in fighting shape next time. I was out of action for 3 months but it was another 6 or so before i got back into it at all and longer before i did it properly. It's 2 years later & i'm back on track for the DCM '12.

Murph_D

Agent J wrote: »

About 6/7 weeks out I was on a 20+ miler run & at about mile 19 or so... Slipped on some wet uneven canal path & went over on my ankle. I tried to continue but could barely manage to hobble forward. I abandoned the run & got a train home.

Was that on the Royal Canal, between Castleknock and Porterstown? Ran that stretch a few weeks back and was very worried about the surface. I'm lucky enough not be be in the same position as the OP!

Kurt Godel

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

I'm not too happy with the injury of course but I'm looking to make the best preparation I can in the time left.

For what it's worth I went out for a 3.5 hour cycle today to keep up / test the cardio out whilst staying off the impact running to give things a better chance. Cardio wise I was grand - was getting in trouble at the end with muscles that aren't normally used in running that had 3+ hours of a test all of a sudden but I was happy with the fitness level (granted that cycling is a bit easier cardio than running)

I was thinking about your predicament all day yesterday, and it spurred me into trying to run the marathon on three weeks training. I think your using long bikes etc is a good idea- don't know if it's any use to you, but I've posted a three week training schedule here- emphasis is on stressing the legs in the (limited) LSR's, with plenty of Cross training, to help flush out the legs, and keep down the impact stresses. There's two 18-milers, (the last of which is 10 days before the race), and two 13 milers, so high milage it ain't!

FWIW

Pacing Mule

Kurt Godel wrote: »

I was thinking about your predicament all day yesterday, and it spurred me into trying to run the marathon on three weeks training. I think your using long bikes etc is a good idea- don't know if it's any use to you, but I've posted a three week training schedule here- emphasis is on stressing the legs in the (limited) LSR's, with plenty of Cross training, to help flush out the legs, and keep down the impact stresses. There's two 18-milers, (the last of which is 10 days before the race), and two 13 milers, so high milage it ain't!

FWIW

I've got a number for lunatics annonymous if you want to come to the next meeting.

Pacing Mule

Seriously though I think that's inspiring stuff - will be following that thread with great interest.