This is a New York Times Article on the Rise of Hunger in Spain

poeticseraphim

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/25/world/europe/hunger-on-the-rise-in-spain.html?pagewanted=all

This is a New York Times Article on the Rise of Hunger in Spain ..is it acurate??

It made me wonder as Enda is on TIME MAGAZINE....does the rest of Europe resent Ireland ...we are held up as what austerity will do ..but our situation was and is very different...it is hardly fair.

Also this is clearly a lost decade for Europe.

They are destroying the continent.


To be honest i don't think its very accurate but anyway.

Lapin

Damned if I'm reading all that at this hour of the night.

Gonna make a sandwich instead.

Madam Marie

That guy at the dumpster is not looking for food, he's looking for GPS Kit Kat wrappers.

DEFTLEFTHAND

To be brutally honest the rest of Europe wish we didn't exist. Charles De Gaulle 's resistance while misinformed at the time rang true in the end. Sure they patronise us and make friendly but in reality they don't see us as players. I'm always reminded of this in my visits to Germany, They're lovely people but they view us as a total joke country.

Wee Willy Harris

Can they not just make one big paella to go 'round?

Lapin

No, they're all on strike.

im invisible

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

To be brutally honest the rest of Europe wish we didn't exist. Charles De Gaulle 's resistance while misinformed at the time rang true in the end. Sure they patronise us and make friendly but in reality they don't see us as players. I'm always reminded of this in my visits to Germany, They're lovely people but they view us as a total joke country.

don't mention the war..

donegal_road

famine in Europe. Could it really happen?

3rdDegree

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

To be brutally honest the rest of Europe wish we didn't exist. Charles De Gaulle 's resistance while misinformed at the time rang true in the end. Sure they patronise us and make friendly but in reality they don't see us as players. I'm always reminded of this in my visits to Germany, They're lovely people but they view us as a total joke country.

We don't even respect ourselves, how can we expect anyone else to?

poeticseraphim

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

To be brutally honest the rest of Europe wish we didn't exist. Charles De Gaulle 's resistance while misinformed at the time rang true in the end. Sure they patronise us and make friendly but in reality they don't see us as players. I'm always reminded of this in my visits to Germany, They're lovely people but they view us as a total joke country.

De Gaulle resisted British memebership not Irish membership ,the veto on British entry made de Gaulle unpopular in Ireland since it was clear that for economic reasons Ireland would be excluded from the EEC as long as Britain remained outside.

He was not resistant to Irish membership and visited Ireland , he only opposed British membership as he felt the British were too reliant on America.

Europe as a whole had it's doubts about us as we were too dependant on Britain.

Many Germans choose to live here.

How could we expect to be players we are tiny???We don't really expect to be.

hmmm I get the impression most Irish people want to immigrate out of Europe completely too ...maybe we too want to forget the whole thing:cool:

Triangular

donegal_road wrote: »

famine in Europe. Could it really happen?

For definite. We are about 9 lost meals from anarchy.

Einhard

poeticseraphim wrote: »

They are destroying the continent.

Who is?

Wee Willy Harris

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

To be brutally honest the rest of Europe wish we didn't exist. Charles De Gaulle 's resistance while misinformed at the time rang true in the end. Sure they patronise us and make friendly but in reality they don't see us as players. I'm always reminded of this in my visits to Germany, They're lovely people but they view us as a total joke country.

certainly not as part of europe.. we need to remember why the world had a huge respect for us a certain sense of independence? besides its no surprise anything we've done on the world stage has been laughably pathetic, since we had the boom n I'm not so sure we can return to that.. people just wanna taste that sugar again, i'd rather we never had one!

DEFTLEFTHAND

Taking Germany for example having spent time there I just get the feeling that we don't matter. We're court jesters, they find us amusing. Ireland doesn't get bad mouthed in their press. The reason being imo is that they view us as stupid Paddy's who wouldn't know any better anyway. In comparison, Greece get slaughtered in their media, obviously they are still tensions from WW2 present.

Lapin

Einhard wrote: »

Who is?

Duh.

The New York Times.

Millicent

Parts of Spain are pretty damn poor. Horrible if true but not surprising. Friends were there lately and got two glasses of wine and two bowls of stew for 80 cent all in, that's how little money was in the local economy.

poeticseraphim

Einhard wrote: »

Who is?

Through ineptitude...Barroso, Draghi, Antonios Samaras, Hollande, the ECB the EUP and the commission....

Through efforts to dominate policy to serve their own country Merkel....

The IMF i actually am less critical of...they have a lot more experience in this and it shows.

But the EU an the ECB have been disastrous disjointed and inexperienced..the imf have seen countries destroyed by disorganised austerity and seem to understand the real issue is DEBT and that it is unsustainable....EU wide ..

A steady refusal to target the core issue and instead coming upwith unworkable schemes...

poeticseraphim

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Taking Germany for example having spent time there I just get the feeling that we don't matter. We're court jesters, they find us amusing. Ireland doesn't get bad mouthed in their press. The reason being imo is that they view us as stupid Paddy's who wouldn't know any better anyway. In comparison, Greece get slaughtered in their media, obviously they are still tensions from WW2 present.

And do you want to add anything about the poverty situation in Spain?

Red21

Can't help but read these posts like this, do people really care that much.

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

To be brutally honest the rest of Europe wish I didn't exist. Sure they patronise me and make friendly but in reality they don't see me as a player. I'm always reminded of this in my visits to Germany, They're lovely people but they view me as a total joke country.

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Taking Germany for example having spent time there I just get the feeling that I don't matter. I'm a court jesters, they find me amusing. The reason being imo is that they view me as stupid Paddy's who wouldn't know any better anyway.

muff03

poeticseraphim wrote: »

hmmm I get the impression most Irish people want to immigrate out of Europe completely too ...maybe we too want to forget the whole thing:cool:

I've lived in New York for the past year and sure, the US doesn't exactly have it's crap together but, compared to how depressing it's gotten in good ol' Éire, it's great craic. It's nice being able to go for more than 10 minutes without being reminded how FUBAR'ed we all are! At least that's how I feel.

grenache

poeticseraphim wrote: »

.
.

hmmm I get the impression most Irish people want to immigrate out of Europe completely too ...maybe we too want to forget the whole thing:cool:

that's a funny impression you have there. I for one love my fellow Europeans. The EU is the best thing that ever happened to us. Although they might be going a bit too far now with talks of a federal Europe.

mikemac1

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I'm always reminded of this in my visits to Germany, They're lovely people but they view us as a total joke country.

For a joke country we sure are popular with them for buying holiday homes

Around here on Lough Derg I can think over 10 houses owned by retired Germans and it's just a rural area

Einhard

poeticseraphim wrote: »

Through ineptitude...Barroso, Draghi, Antonios Samaras, Hollande, the ECB the EUP and the commission....

To be honest, I look at the EU and see mistakes alright, but then I also see that 27 sovereign nations of the Union, and 17 of the Eurozone, are co-operating in a manner that has never before been witnessed. And I tend to put the problems in that context, and remember the reaction in the 30s, the last time the economic situation was this bad across the continent.

Through efforts to dominate policy to serve their own country Merkel....

The Germans have pumped tens of billiosn into the Eurozone economy over the past few years through bailout mechanisms. It's very likely that, in th case of Greece, much of that money will never be recovered for the hardworking German taxpayer. With Ireland, yes, they'll earn interest....but they didn't have to take such a risk. And bailing out Ireland was a major risk. So, I don't begrudge Merkel and the Germans their caution when it comes to their own money.

t the EU an the ECB have been disastrous disjointed and inexperienced..the imf
have seen countries destroyed by disorganised austerity and seem to understand
the real issue is DEBT and that it is unsustainable....EU wide ..

I'm sorry, but what countries have been destroyed? The likes of Greece? They destroyed themselves. Long ago. Ireland? We're far from destroyed. And the reason we can still pay the dole and reasonable wages to teachers and nurses is because of the EU.

Don't get me wrong...there have been mistakes made. But the EU or its institutions haven't destroyed economies or nations. Indeed, the only reason such economies are still afloat is because of the EU and her institutions.

A steady refusal to target the core issue and instead coming upwith unworkable
schemes...

The core issues....like nations borrowing unsustainably for a decade?

poeticseraphim

muff03 wrote: »

I've lived in New York for the past year and sure, the US doesn't exactly have it's crap together but, compared to how depressing it's gotten in good ol' Éire, it's great craic. It's nice being able to go for more than 10 minutes without being reminded how FUBAR'ed we all are! At least that's how I feel.

I am actually thinking of going to the states i am so fed up of Europe.:-)

poeticseraphim

grenache wrote: »

that's a funny impression you have there. I for one love my fellow Europeans. The EU is the best thing that ever happened to us. Although they might be going a bit too far now with talks of a federal Europe.

I write for a living and i was doing intrviews at a jobs fair recently. Most gradudates wanted to get out of Europe and go to Canada or Oz and work.


They saw the EU as a slow disaster and with no plans from politicans that seem laudable.

The opinion was it's over.

Melodramatic maybe.

Da Shins Kelly

People need to stop caring so much about what Germany thinks.

On the subject of poverty and such in Spain, I wouldn't say that there are so many people starving and I haven't seen many dumpster divers around. Yes, there are people who have fallen on hard times, but starvation is not something facing the majority of the population. To be honest, I kind of read this as an American publication attempting to depict Spain and by extension Europe in a way that is pretty far from reality. As if there's no one eating out of bins in the US...:rolleyes:

That all said, Spain is facing a crisis situation and in some ways is worse off than Ireland. Their unemployment rate is absolutely through the roof and while they protest a lot and make a lot of noise, I'm not sure how much is actually getting done in the way of getting the country back in the right direction.

MrPoker

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

To be brutally honest the rest of Europe wish we didn't exist. Charles De Gaulle 's resistance while misinformed at the time rang true in the end. Sure they patronise us and make friendly but in reality they don't see us as players. I'm always reminded of this in my visits to Germany, They're lovely people but they view us as a total joke country.

Insecure much??

To be brutally honest that is not the way it is. You only have to walk around Dublin City centre or travel down the west coast to see meet lots of European tourists who love coming here. As another poster mentioned to a lot of Germans and French buy holiday homes here. It seems to me some people feel inferior about being Irish. Why? We are a small island nation on the periphery of Europe but have done some great things.

We are a fairly new state and have made some big mistakes with the economy but going forward we will learn from these and make sure they wont be repeated. Most country's have some part of their history they are not proud of. This is ours.

Serious inferiority complex you have there man. Be proud of where you come from!!

DEFTLEFTHAND

MrPoker wrote: »

Insecure much??

To be brutally honest that is not the way it is. You only have to walk around Dublin City centre or travel down the west coast to see meet lots of European tourists who love coming here. As another poster mentioned to a lot of Germans and French buy holiday homes here. It seems to me some people feel inferior about being Irish. Why? We are a small island nation on the periphery of Europe but have done some great things.

We are a fairly new state and have made some big mistakes with the economy but going forward we will learn from these and make sure they wont be repeated. Most country's have some part of their history they are not proud of. This is ours.

Serious inferiority complex you have there man. Be proud of where you come from!!

You're missing the point, I'm not running us down as a nation. My view is that the German's patronise Ireland, they say nice things, they holiday here etc, but they don't respect Ireland. My opinion is based from the sample of people I know and have met In Germany as well as how their media portrays us. Its very subtle in how they do it, but you pick up on it if you've been there long enough.

poeticseraphim

Einhard wrote: »

To be honest, I look at the EU and see mistakes alright, but then I also see that 27 sovereign nations of the Union, and 17 of the Eurozone, are co-operating in a manner that has never before been witnessed. And I tend to put the problems in that context, and remember the reaction in the 30s, the last time the economic situation was this bad across the continent.



The Germans have pumped tens of billiosn into the Eurozone economy over the past few years through bailout mechanisms. It's very likely that, in th case of Greece, much of that money will never be recovered for the hardworking German taxpayer. With Ireland, yes, they'll earn interest....but they didn't have to take such a risk. And bailing out Ireland was a major risk. So, I don't begrudge Merkel and the Germans their caution when it comes to their own money.




I'm sorry, but what countries have been destroyed? The likes of Greece? They destroyed themselves. Long ago. Ireland? We're far from destroyed. And the reason we can still pay the dole and reasonable wages to teachers and nurses is because of the EU.

Don't get me wrong...there have been mistakes made. But the EU or its institutions haven't destroyed economies or nations. Indeed, the only reason such economies are still afloat is because of the EU and her institutions.



The core issues....like nations borrowing unsustainably for a decade?

Einhard
The principal monetary policy tool of the European central bank is collateralised borrowing or repo agreements.The collateral used by the ECB is typically high quality public and private sector debt.The criteria for determining "high quality" for public debt have been preconditions for membership in the European Union.

Think-tanks such as the World Pensions Council have also argued that European legislators have pushed somewhat dogmatically for the adoption of the Basel II recommendations, adopted in 2005, transposed in European Union law through the Capital Requirements Directive (CRD).

They FORCED uropeans banks and the ECB itself to asses risk using flawed assement.

What is more disturbing the European legislators put into law that banks could not count losses on bad loans until the borrower had actually contacted the institution involved. In reality the time between this happening and th initial problem of payment arising could b years with losses amount but they could nvr be declared. Yet the audit would legally have to omit them. Due to CRD regulation.

European legislators forced ISAB created regulation which the House of Lords in the UK found to be at fault. Unrecognised losses led to inaccurate audits and borrowing against fantasy accounting.
One regulator stated
“As with other regulators worldwide, the Central Bank used audited financial statements as a primary tool in its supervision of regulated firms.” Despite receiving “clean” audit reports, they were “under-providing for impairment”.

By impairment they mean unregcognised losses....

In the report Anglo Irish topped the list with losses due to error relative to it's size with Allied Irish second...
A UK report stated
“not identifying the accounting standard as the root cause of the initial phase of the banking crisis has led to several misdiagnosis”.

So that is IASB mechanical regulation or law....but Irish company law is different and does not permit banks to give audits that do not recognise these losses..whether or not they require Irish auditors to tell Irish regulators is unclear

But the main point is legally their asses aren't covered...

Eu regulation forced huge accounting errors even German banks are being affected in the news. Put bluntly, Germany’s banks have not been cleansed of much of the worthless toxic paper of the pre-2008 era and, on top of that, are replete with bonds issued by the now insolvent banks. French banks are in a similar state, with even more of an exposure to Spanish debt.

“Germany is the creator of zombie banks and has been protecting its zombies against the EBA or other EU institutions that have tried to dismantle them,” said Peter Tchir, founder of New York-based TF Market Advisors, which advises hedge funds.

Germany shut WestLB AG, a regional lender crippled by its U.S. subprime and other risky investments. And many more 'ZOMBIE BANKS'
They invented the concept of NAMA too it seems.

Even Deutsche Bank, arguably the most important bank in Western Europe, has just €50 billion in capital supporting €1.7 trillion in total assets. Only by ignoring the sovereign and off-balance sheet footings of Deutsche and other major EU banks can anyone even for a moment pretend that these banks are solvent.

An inspection of the data published by the IMF suggests that many of the banking markets in the EU are badly decapitalized.

It is due largly the legislation mentioned above and '
' the culture of secrecy and a complete absence of public disclosure in the EU has doomed the process to failure. Richard Field, an expert on the mortgage sector who has been pushing for improved disclosure by the EBA and other agencies, says that EU officials are “directly contributing to financial market instability by not making the data available so that the risk of the banks they are supervising could be analyzed.”


They are not co-operating in fact there is a HUGE split between north and south like NEVER seen before.

Spain..Italy....and yes Greece...yes individuals sovreign economies playd a part..but so did the EU

What is more important they are STILL making stupid decisions and incompetant policy...IT IS RIDICULOUS

poeticseraphim

mikemac1 wrote: »

For a joke country we sure are popular with them for buying holiday homes

Around here on Lough Derg I can think over 10 houses owned by retired Germans and it's just a rural area

I was thinking of that too. Germans and Irish people generally get on.:):):)

Eve_Dublin

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

People need to stop caring so much about what Germany thinks.

On the subject of poverty and such in Spain, I wouldn't say that there are so many people starving and I haven't seen many dumpster divers around. Yes, there are people who have fallen on hard times, but starvation is not something facing the majority of the population. To be honest, I kind of read this as an American publication attempting to depict Spain and by extension Europe in a way that is pretty far from reality. As if there's no one eating out of bins in the US...:rolleyes:

That all said, Spain is facing a crisis situation and in some ways is worse off than Ireland. Their unemployment rate is absolutely through the roof and while they protest a lot and make a lot of noise, I'm not sure how much is actually getting done in the way of getting the country back in the right direction.

I don't think the article is making out that it's something affecting the majority of the population though. Things are very bad here,worse than Ireland (which you acknowledged). I wouldn't say we see half of it. In fairness, I don't spend too much time round the back of supermarkets looking out for people diving into dumpsters, so how do we really know what's going on?

My parents visited last week and were shocked by the amount of beggers in the city and this is two people who've spent their lives living in Dublin. Went for a walk round the centre and noticed that yet more shops have shut down, more Africans selling their wares on the street and more homeless wandering round the streets. Things have most definitely gotten a lot worse since I arrived here 3 years ago....and this is Madrid, the capital city and supposedly one of the most prosperous parts of the country.

This article could very well be true. The dole is finite and then you're almost completely on your own. The 400 Euro they speak of in this article is only given to certain extreme cases and even then, it's very difficult to apply for.Salaries are among the lowest in Europe but prices have risen by 3%. I don't know how anyone survives on the average salary here with a family.

One thing the Spanish have that other countries don't is the support of the family. Most young people are living at home with their parents (young in Spain is well into your 30s). If this wasn't the case, there'd be mass rioting and revolting.

One baffling thing with the Spanish is their lack of desire to emigrate. To be honest, it's something I don't get. It's a real option for them but I hear, "I'd miss my family too much". Yes, there's emigration but not on any grand scale and that probably goes to partly explain why the unemployment rates here are so high.

I've very little sympathy for this kind of attitude, if I'm honest. When needs must, particularly among young people. Not suggesting the poor should be shipped out of the country but there's many young, educated people here who are doing nothing and are being supported by their families into their 30s when they've another option.

Wibbs

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

One baffling thing with the Spanish is their lack of desire to emigrate. To be honest, it's something I don't get. It's a real option for them but I hear, "I'd miss my family too much". Yes, there's emigration but not on any grand scale and that probably goes to partly explain why the unemployment rates here are so high.

Yea I noticed that about them. They really don't travel at all and if they do they rarely stay for life. They're like Anti-New Zealanders. Given how much of the world is Spanish speaking it's not a language barrier either. You get quite a number of folks from ex Spanish colonies around the world going to Spain, but not the other way around.

MrPoker

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

One baffling thing with the Spanish is their lack of desire to emigrate. To be honest, it's something I don't get. It's a real option for them but I hear, "I'd miss my family too much". Yes, there's emigration but not on any grand scale and that probably goes to partly explain why the unemployment rates here are so high.

This has to be a huge drain on the Spanish economy with no jobs and high welfare costs. Here in Ireland people are quick to emigrate if they cant find a job which keep our unemployment figures down. I do think this is a factor in the lack of protests here while the rest of us who are working and getting on with things. The Spanish situation seems to be deteriorating quite rapidly.

Eve_Dublin

MrPoker wrote: »

This has to be a huge drain on the Spanish economy with no jobs and high welfare costs. Here in Ireland people are quick to emigrate if they cant find a job which keep our unemployment figures down. I do think this is a factor in the lack of protests here while the rest of us who are working and getting on with things. The Spanish situation seems to be deteriorating quite rapidly.

Wibbs wrote: »

Yea I noticed that about them. They really don't travel at all and if they do they rarely stay for life. They're like Anti-New Zealanders. Given how much of the world is Spanish speaking it's not a language barrier either. You get quite a number of folks from ex Spanish colonies around the world going to Spain, but not the other way around.

I really have to bite my tongue anytime I hear them tell me how much they'd miss their family...like I hate my own and couldn't get away from them fast enough :rolleyes:. The Spanish like Spain and like living here. They really believe they have the best food, weather, culture, craic and night life in the world and they won't find it elsewhere. Love this country and the people but the narrow-mindedness would get to you after a while. How they think it's any kind of quality of life living with your parents over having your independence in another country is something I can't get my head round.

I give English classes to a 38 year old woman....in her bedroom in her parents house. She's unemployed and has zero prospects here. I asked her would she be interested in leaving and but she simply said she'd never be happy elsewhere. She's not exceptional. I sympathise with the people here as things are bad but I've zero sympathy for those who refuse outright to help themselves.

Agricola

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Taking Germany for example having spent time there I just get the feeling that we don't matter. We're court jesters, they find us amusing. Ireland doesn't get bad mouthed in their press. The reason being imo is that they view us as stupid Paddy's who wouldn't know any better anyway. In comparison, Greece get slaughtered in their media, obviously they are still tensions from WW2 present.

National stereotypes work for other countries as well as Ireland. Apparently the Germans see Greeks as a bunch of work shy, tax dodgers. Maybe thats the whole problem here!!

The real reason we don't get bad mouthed in their press, and the reason Ireland isnt on the radar at all for many Germans, is because the government here is enforcing whats seen as Germanic austerity on the people and they are by and large accepting this medicine without any trouble. Enda and co are following the plan which Merkel approves of. We are not endangering their precious Euro as best we can, and generally being very good europeans in the midst of the present crisis. This coupled with the fact that we are a tiny country whos individual debt problem isnt going to collapse the single currency through a bailout, means we are fine and dandy with the Germans. Their press have little bad to report about us.

Greece on the other hand has a massive debt burden related to GDP, are looking for continual bailouts, are seemingly unwilling and unable to enforce their austerity programs and has a history of questionable dealings with the EU financial power brokers which played a part in leading them to the position they are in. On top of all this, there is violence on the streets of Athens regularly. The German media is feeding the population this perspective on Greece all the time....

So which country do you think they would favour considering this?

Da Shins Kelly

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

I don't think the article is making out that it's something affecting the majority of the population though. Things are very bad here,worse than Ireland (which you acknowledged). I wouldn't say we see half of it. In fairness, I don't spend too much time round the back of supermarkets looking out for people diving into dumpsters, so how do we really know what's going on?

My parents visited last week and were shocked by the amount of beggers in the city and this is two people who've spent their lives living in Dublin. Went for a walk round the centre and noticed that yet more shops have shut down, more Africans selling their wares on the street and more homeless wandering round the streets. Things have most definitely gotten a lot worse since I arrived here 3 years ago....and this is Madrid, the capital city and supposedly one of the most prosperous parts of the country.

This article could very well be true. The dole is finite and then you're almost completely on your own. The 400 Euro they speak of in this article is only given to certain extreme cases and even then, it's very difficult to apply for.Salaries are among the lowest in Europe but prices have risen by 3%. I don't know how anyone survives on the average salary here with a family.

One thing the Spanish have that other countries don't is the support of the family. Most young people are living at home with their parents (young in Spain is well into your 30s). If this wasn't the case, there'd be mass rioting and revolting.

One baffling thing with the Spanish is their lack of desire to emigrate. To be honest, it's something I don't get. It's a real option for them but I hear, "I'd miss my family too much". Yes, there's emigration but not on any grand scale and that probably goes to partly explain why the unemployment rates here are so high.

I've very little sympathy for this kind of attitude, if I'm honest. When needs must, particularly among young people. Not suggesting the poor should be shipped out of the country but there's many young, educated people here who are doing nothing and are being supported by their families into their 30s when they've another option.

Well, I admit I wouldn't know much about what's happening in Madrid. I'm in Granada, and while there are beggars (something that comes with being in the city), I wasn't exactly taken aback by how many there were (not many). The article is talking about people eating out of dumpsters, and while that may be a reality for some, I do think that the article is kind of acting like 'oh, look at this new development in Spain! Things are so bad that people are eating out of dumpsters!' Sure, who knows what goes on, but I seriously doubt that that is a serious reality for a lot of people, and like I say, there's probably double the number doing the same thing in the US.

I have noticed the lack of desire to emigrate too, which I think is, like you said, down to the importance of family here. I've also noticed how little importance seems to be put on learning English, compared to other European countries I've visited. There seems to be little or no interest in it, which I think places them at an immediate disadvantage when compared to the likes of Germany or the Scandinavian countries.