electrical question

Rob32

This is one for the more electrical gurus, basically my question is about a skoda octavia 02 1.6 the question is about the box that sits on top of the battery with fusable links in it, if one of the ten bolts was loose could it firstly cause the car to cut out, secondly if the battery was tested give the impression that the altenator wasnt charging and lastly start a fire in the box ive mentioned, now by fire I mean singeing/melting etc, the bolt that was loose goes to either the starter or the altenator and is a positive lead. The car cut out was diagnosed as needin a battery and altenator and after these were fitted the melting occured. Also the time the melting occured the positive and negative had been left loose. Thanks in advance for your help.

dieselbug

Any loose conection on a circuit will cause heating when loaded.

Fairly common with these fuseable links.

Rob32

dieselbug wrote: »

Any loose conection on a circuit will cause heating when loaded.

Fairly common with these fuseable links.

Ok, and is the person who checked the car at fault for not checking these bolts? The batt terminals were left loose and it was the same evening it happened, could the terminals be what caused it?

dieselbug

Ok, and is the person who checked the car at fault for not checking these bolts?

Thats not for me to say.
You need to take that up with the person in question.

Rob32

dieselbug wrote: »

Ok, and is the person who checked the car at fault for not checking these bolts?

Thats not for me to say.
You need to take that up with the person in question.

Im the person, I was asked to check a altenator which I did, I wasnt made aware/asked to look for any underlying electrical issues. Im not a mechanic, just a fitter

dieselbug

Its possible the bad connection on the fuseable link was the underlying issue but why were the battery connections loose.
Did you fit the battery and alternator?

Rob32

dieselbug wrote: »

Its possible the bad connection on the fuseable link was the underlying issue but why were the battery connections loose.
Did you fit the battery and alternator?

No I didnt, a second year apprentice did, and he also left the terminals loose, the fuseboard was changed a couple days ago by the manager and he never mentioned anything but the terminals being loose, the apprentice is a family friend of his and I suspect Im the scapegoat

dieselbug

So this problem occured after the garage fitted a new alternator and battery.
If thats the case I dont see how you can be held responable for the bad connection on the link.
Its very possible the connections were disturbed when changeing the battery.

Rob32

dieselbug wrote: »

So this problem occured after the garage fitted a new alternator and battery.
If thats the case I dont see how you can be held responable for the bad connection on the link.
Its very possible the connections were disturbed when changeing the battery.

I also work in the garage, however I had no part in fitting the parts, basically the managers claiming the along with testing the batt etc I should have checked the tightness of all these bolts!

Rob32

Rob32 wrote: »

.......... Im not a mechanic, just a fitter

Tyre fitter?

If your boss wants mechanics he should hire some

Personally I'd question both an alternator and battery being required. Was the alt light on?

Rob32

RoverJames wrote: »

Rob32 wrote: »

.......... Im not a mechanic, just a fitter

Tyre fitter?

If your boss wants mechanics he should hire some

Personally I'd question both an alternator and battery being required. Was the alt light on?

No suspension brakes etc certified in everything I do also, no the alt light wasnt on, the reason I reccomended both is because the batts voltage was reading 5volts and the charge from the alt was way to low, dont remember exact reading, so I determined the batt needed replacement and so did the alt. Due to bein excessivly drained and as clearly the voltage regulation was faulty ie to low which wouldn turn the light on.

Rob32

Rob32 wrote: »

.............. the batts voltage was reading 5volts.............

... with engine running?

Rob32

RoverJames wrote: »

Rob32 wrote: »

.............. the batts voltage was reading 5volts.............

... with engine running?

Of course not, how could I even start it with that voltage.

To run the car I had to enlist the help of jump leads and another battery

Bruthal

Rob32 wrote: »

Of course not, how could I even start it with that voltage.

To run the car I had to enlist the help of jump leads and another battery

Well what was the voltage with engine running then?

Rob32

robbie7730 wrote: »

Rob32 wrote: »

Of course not, how could I even start it with that voltage.

To run the car I had to enlist the help of jump leads and another battery

Well what was the voltage with engine running then?

Tbh I dont remember exactly as it was last week but it was no more than 13.5 bearing in mind that was with the other batt connected, if I removed the jump leads the car died immediatly, could you explain where your going with this? As Im not sure how its relevant.

Rob32

Rob32 wrote: »

Of course not, how could I even start it with that voltage.

To run the car I had to enlist the help of jump leads and another battery

So you reckon measuring the voltage of an obviously flat battery is indicative of it's health?

You can only ascertain is a battery w@nked or not by load testing it.

Bruthal

Rob32 wrote: »

Tbh I dont remember exactly as it was last week but it was no more than 13.5 bearing in mind that was with the other batt connected, if I removed the jump leads the car died immediatly, could you explain where your going with this? As Im not sure how its relevant.

Well if alternators and batteries are suspected to be needing replacement, it would be normal to check if the alternator is generating, and if the battery is able to maintain its voltage while supplying a load. Voltage tests indicate these.

Your original question about loose connections, yes they can heat severely, depending on what the load is, and on how loose the connection is.

Rob32

robbie7730 wrote: »

Rob32 wrote: »

Tbh I dont remember exactly as it was last week but it was no more than 13.5 bearing in mind that was with the other batt connected, if I removed the jump leads the car died immediatly, could you explain where your going with this? As Im not sure how its relevant.

Well if alternators and batteries are suspected to be needing replacement, it would be normal to check if the alternator is generating, and if the battery is able to maintain its voltage while supplying a load. Voltage tests indicate these.

Your original question about loose connections, yes they can heat severely, depending on what the load is, and on how loose the connection is.

As mentioned the battery was unable to maintain voltage itself and the altenator was charging the batt at an insufficient voltage.

@ roverjames considering the above issue retaining voltage and the fact it was a original battery, havin being in the car for eight years, 10 if the original owner hadnt touched it, I felt it needed replacement yes.


Now could we get back to the actual question I asked or is this going to be another, I know more than you thread, which has pitifully became the norm here of late?

Bruthal

Rob32 wrote: »

As mentioned the battery was unable to maintain voltage itself and the altenator was charging the batt at an insufficient voltage.

@ roverjames considering the above issue retaining voltage and the fact it was a original battery, havin being in the car for eight years, 10 if the original owner hadnt touched it, I felt it needed replacement yes.


Now could we get back to the actual question I asked or is this going to be another, I know more than you thread, which has pitifully became the norm here of late?

Well you know more than me, so I`l leave you to it.

Rob32

robbie7730 wrote: »

Rob32 wrote: »

As mentioned the battery was unable to maintain voltage itself and the altenator was charging the batt at an insufficient voltage.

@ roverjames considering the above issue retaining voltage and the fact it was a original battery, havin being in the car for eight years, 10 if the original owner hadnt touched it, I felt it needed replacement yes.


Now could we get back to the actual question I asked or is this going to be another, I know more than you thread, which has pitifully became the norm here of late?

Well you know more than me, so I`l leave you to it.

And thats the reaction I recieve for asking to stay on topic? Feel free to go to another thread to show off your knowledge so.

Ill just wait here for the helpful non condescending people to show up.

Rob32

Rob32 wrote: »

As mentioned the battery was unable to maintain voltage itself and the altenator was charging the batt at an insufficient voltage.

@ roverjames considering the above issue retaining voltage and the fact it was a original battery, havin being in the car for eight years, 10 if the original owner hadnt touched it, I felt it needed replacement yes.


Now could we get back to the actual question I asked or is this going to be another, I know more than you thread, which has pitifully became the norm here of late?

Rob32 wrote: »

And thats the reaction I recieve for asking to stay on topic? Feel free to go to another thread to show off your knowledge so.

Ill just wait here for the helpful non condescending people to show up.

Any consideration for the owner of the car who got stung for both an alternator and a battery based on the diagnosis of a less than capable fitter?

How much were they charged?

Bruthal

Rob32 wrote: »

And thats the reaction I recieve for asking to stay on topic? Feel free to go to another thread to show off your knowledge so.

Ill just wait here for the helpful non condescending people to show up.

I think asking about voltage readings was a fair question. You dont. Therefore not much point in saying much more.

Bad connections can cause burning. And can cause a properly working alternator not to charge the battery properly.

BeardyGit

BeardyGit wrote: »

One of these days RJ.....one of these days.....

One of these days what?

Are you actually well btw?

Our man in Havana

1 month holiday for the person who does not shave.

ZENER

So with a new battery connected the voltage was about 13.5 volts with the engine running ? Sounds like the Alternator was working then ! Nominal voltage on a car battery is about 12 VDC when disconnected, charging would bring the terminal voltage up to between 13V and 13.8V.

I don't have a lot of experience with different models of cars but in those that I have seen where there is a fuse box directly attached to the batter the fuses would be high value to supply the starter motor and solenoid. Based on this I'd say something pulling a large current through a loose bolt (high resistance relatively speaking) could easily cause burning or at least scorching. If left for a period of time it could easily escalate to melting and even fire !

Ken

Jellicoe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ijj85BFtIVA

Our man in Havana

COP ON!

Jellicoe

Jellicoe wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ijj85BFtIVA

.... I'm fairly sure you wanna be in BeardyGit's little gang
You'd fit right in

ZENER

ZENER wrote: »

So with a new battery connected the voltage was about 13.5 volts with the engine running ? Sounds like the Alternator was working then ! ............

Yep, alternator light not on either so that's also indicating the battery is getting charged from alternator.

Rob32

RoverJames wrote: »

ZENER wrote: »

So with a new battery connected the voltage was about 13.5 volts with the engine running ? Sounds like the Alternator was working then ! ............

Yep, alternator light not on either so that's also indicating the battery is getting charged from alternator.

Altenator lights come on in the event of complete charging failure, which in this case and in general didnt happen. Making that comment leads me to believe your experience is more theory based now I could get into a huge story about what I did etc but I wont as its not what I was asking about. Im well capable of doing my job so I dont get the negative comments from keyboard warriors.

My initial question was should I have checked the tightness of the bolts in the fuse box, thats it and its taken 3 pages and still no answer!

But instead roverjames who I believe I remembwe from a previous argument, comes in with an attitude.

Anyways if someone can answer the actual question it would be great, if not mods you can just lock this and ill ask elsewere

Rob32

ZENER wrote: »

So with a new battery connected the voltage was about 13.5 volts with the engine running ? Sounds like the Alternator was working then ! Nominal voltage on a car battery is about 12 VDC when disconnected, charging would bring the terminal voltage up to between 13V and 13.8V.

I don't have a lot of experience with different models of cars but in those that I have seen where there is a fuse box directly attached to the batter the fuses would be high value to supply the starter motor and solenoid. Based on this I'd say something pulling a large current through a loose bolt (high resistance relatively speaking) could easily cause burning or at least scorching. If left for a period of time it could easily escalate to melting and even fire !

Ken

Its was less than 13.5 and ive always been told it should charge at 14. Something!

Anyway thanks for the helpful post but it doesnt answer my question, I know a loose connection will cause increased resistance and heat build up, Im not asking about that.

gctest50

Rob32 wrote: »

My initial question was should I have checked the tightness of the bolts in the fuse box, thats it and its taken 3 pages and still no answer!

Ideally (cos you never know if someone else has been poking around ) you should have checked stuff like :

Earthstraps: engine<---->battery , engine<---->body or whatever way its done ( take off bolts, clean , clean bolts,threads, bolt back together and grease up with suitable stuff) - only takes a couple of minutes.

Before you put the earth cable back on the battery , run down along the positive side of the show in the same way.That way you can't miss anything.

Again one of my reasons for doing this would be it only takes a few minutes and you don't know if someone has been poking at it and gave up.
This might be why the little nuts were slightly loose and caused overheating on the fusible link box. ( or you could get caught out in the future )

Since the old battery was only reading 5 volts and had killed the alternator , it may not have been the safest putting jumpleads and a booster battery onto it - if the old battery had shorted cells there is a slight chance it could explode - hot acid and bits of plastic aren't much fun really - more realistic if your booster battery is a truck battery etc.

An intelligent charger / load test on the old battery might show dead cells - along with a few fried diodes in the rectifier of the old alternator maybe.

Either way if the winter coming is going to be as cold as the one the other year , all bits and pieces in the starting circuit need to be in top shape.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwWwCZF6FW0 <

---

battery exploded ( overcharged though in this case )

Rob32

gctest50 wrote: »

Rob32 wrote: »

My initial question was should I have checked the tightness of the bolts in the fuse box, thats it and its taken 3 pages and still no answer!

Ideally (cos you never know if someone else has been poking around ) you should have checked stuff like :

Earthstraps: engine<---->battery , engine<---->body or whatever way its done ( take off bolts, clean , clean bolts,threads, bolt back together and grease up with suitable stuff) - only takes a couple of minutes.

Before you put the earth cable back on the battery , run down along the positive side of the show in the same way.That way you can't miss anything.

Again one of my reasons for doing this would be it only takes a few minutes and you don't know if someone has been poking at it and gave up.
This might be why the little nuts were slightly loose and caused overheating on the fusible link box. ( or you could get caught out in the future )

Since the old battery was only reading 5 volts and had killed the alternator , it may not have been the safest putting jumpleads and a booster battery onto it - if the old battery had shorted cells there is a slight chance it could explode - hot acid and bits of plastic aren't much fun really - more realistic if your booster battery is a truck battery etc.

An intelligent charger / load test on the old battery might show dead cells - along with a few fried diodes in the rectifier of the old alternator maybe.

Either way if the winter coming is going to be as cold as the one the other year , all bits and pieces in the starting circuit need to be in top shape.

Thank you for actually answering my question!

This is as complete an answer as I wanted so mods you can lock this now!

Bruthal

Rob32 wrote: »

Thank you for actually answering my question!

This is as complete an answer as I wanted so mods you can lock this now!

Rob32 wrote: »

My initial question was should I have checked the tightness of the bolts in the fuse box, thats it and its taken 3 pages and still no answer!

Your initial question did not ask if it was your fault for loose connections. And your later question asking this was answered in post #8

Rob32

robbie7730 wrote: »

Rob32 wrote: »

Thank you for actually answering my question!

This is as complete an answer as I wanted so mods you can lock this now!

Rob32 wrote: »

My initial question was should I have checked the tightness of the bolts in the fuse box, thats it and its taken 3 pages and still no answer!

Your initial question did not ask if it was your fault for loose connections. And your later question asking this was answered in post #8

Sorry Im not interested in internet arguements, cheers for pointing out my error though.

Anyway mods again you can lock this up cheers

How much did ye charge.
You're complete charging failure light theory is incorrect btw, leads me to believe you dont have a notion.

Rob32

Ive no idea, the manager deals with all that, knowing him though tbh Im sure it was way too much! Theres a whole story behind this that I wont get into.

galwaytt

Fwiw, in my experience, standing voltage on a battery should be 12.8v. With engine running should be minimum 1v more, so thats 13.8v - and up to 14.2.

Alternator light can come on for low, as well as no, voltage. It's a very rough indicator of something AWOL with charging/electrical circuit that's all.

... Can also come on when overcharging.

ZENER

gctest50 wrote: »

Since the old battery was only reading 5 volts and had killed the alternator , it may not have been the safest putting jumpleads and a booster battery onto it -

It's been pointed out that the "new" battery read 13.5 volts with the car running - to me it would seem the alternator was working fine. I'd be interested in seeing the fusebox on the battery to see if the (+) terminal was actually accessible for a jump lead. It's possible the jumpers were attached after the bad fuse which might have been in the charging circuit.

Rob32 wrote:

Thank you for actually answering my question !

:rolleyes:

Ken

gctest50

ZENER wrote: »

It's been pointed out that the "new" battery read 13.5 volts with the car running -

Ken

ah ok

Rob32

ZENER wrote: »

gctest50 wrote: »

Since the old battery was only reading 5 volts and had killed the alternator , it may not have been the safest putting jumpleads and a booster battery onto it -

It's been pointed out that the "new" battery read 13.5 volts with the car running - to me it would seem the alternator was working fine. I'd be interested in seeing the fusebox on the battery to see if the (+) terminal was actually accessible for a jump lead. It's possible the jumpers were attached after the bad fuse which might have been in the charging circuit.

Rob32 wrote:

Thank you for actually answering my question !

:rolleyes:

Ken

Firstly I stated that the battery read less than 13.5 volts I dont remember exactly what it was though, so please stop claiming I said exactly 13.5 secondly of course the leads were connected to the battery what else would I connect them too!?!?

Also lastly the battery light is not in anyway a reliable indication of anythin it will only come on below a certain threshold.

And lastly if this is the way you guys like to try validate/excite your lives or even if you just like trying to insult a random boards user, feel free ill do my best to try not to loose any sleep! Ill see you next time you guys ask a question

Rob32

Rob32 wrote: »

Altenator lights come on in the event of complete charging failure, which in this case and in general didnt happen..............

Rob32 wrote: »

................
Also lastly the battery light is not in anyway a reliable indication of anythin it will only come on below a certain threshold.

..................

I thought they only came on in the event of complete charging failure, according to you? Now they come on below a certain threshold, according to you?

Which is it?

Rob32

RoverJames wrote: »

Rob32 wrote: »

Altenator lights come on in the event of complete charging failure, which in this case and in general didnt happen..............

Rob32 wrote: »

................
Also lastly the battery light is not in anyway a reliable indication of anythin it will only come on below a certain threshold.

..................

I thought they only came on in the event of complete charging failure, according to you? Now they come on below a certain threshold, according to you?

Which is it?

My apologies for giving a more detailed answer now that ive time, ill ensure to walk out of work in future to answer boards

More detailed? The posts contradict each other

ZENER

Rob32 wrote: »

Firstly I stated that the battery read less than 13.5 volts I dont remember exactly what it was though, so please stop claiming I said exactly 13.5 secondly of course the leads were connected to the battery what else would I connect them too!?!?

Also lastly the battery light is not in anyway a reliable indication of anythin it will only come on below a certain threshold.

And lastly if this is the way you guys like to try validate/excite your lives or even if you just like trying to insult a random boards user, feel free ill do my best to try not to loose any sleep! Ill see you next time you guys ask a question

I'm not claiming anything !!! You said in a previous post that with a new battery connected via jumpleads that the voltage was 13.5 volts - given that a new fully charged battery would read a bit over 12 VDC then I deduced that there must be extra voltage coming from somewhere, i.e. the alternator.

You posted a query on a public forum, you'll get posts/comments/answers from people with varying degrees of knowledge. I'm an electrician with 30 years experience with a good knowledge of car electrical systems both theoretical and practical. In my opinion you are simply looking for someone to exonerate you of responsibility for the screw up !!

Posters here who are respected in their fields have given you answers to your questions yet you ignore them !! These are people who post on a regular basis on this forum and their answers generally are accepted as credible and they accept correction when offered.

If you want someone to massage your ego then may suggest you try elsewhere ?

Ken

Rob32

ZENER wrote: »

Rob32 wrote: »

Firstly I stated that the battery read less than 13.5 volts I dont remember exactly what it was though, so please stop claiming I said exactly 13.5 secondly of course the leads were connected to the battery what else would I connect them too!?!?

Also lastly the battery light is not in anyway a reliable indication of anythin it will only come on below a certain threshold.

And lastly if this is the way you guys like to try validate/excite your lives or even if you just like trying to insult a random boards user, feel free ill do my best to try not to loose any sleep! Ill see you next time you guys ask a question

I'm not claiming anything !!! You said in a previous post that with a new battery connected via jumpleads that the voltage was 13.5 volts - given that a new fully charged battery would read a bit over 12 VDC then I deduced that there must be extra voltage coming from somewhere, i.e. the alternator.

You posted a query on a public forum, you'll get posts/comments/answers from people with varying degrees of knowledge. I'm an electrician with 30 years experience with a good knowledge of car electrical systems both theoretical and practical. In my opinion you are simply looking for someone to exonerate you of responsibility for the screw up !!

Posters here who are respected in their fields have given you answers to your questions yet you ignore them !! These are people who post on a regular basis on this forum and their answers generally are accepted as credible and they accept correction when offered.

If you want someone to massage your ego then may suggest you try elsewhere ?

Ken

I never said that I said LESS than 13.5 and I dont want anyone to massage anything, I dont remember posting a thread asking if the altenator was ok or not I was asking about the burning in the fuse box. However regardless if there respected in their field or not there not in here to give constructive answers or even relevant answers, the ego stroking is being done sufficiently well by you guys. It was a page ago I got my answer but yet you guys continue talking about a topic that is part of the story yes but isnt the actual point of focus.

On another note the alt had been sent away to get tested and has come back as having a faulty regulator. Oh and according to the auto electrician altenators are meant to charge at between 14.2 and 14.7

Bruthal

Rob32 wrote: »

post#47
I dont remember posting a thread asking if the altenator was ok or not I was asking about the burning in the fuse box.

Changed your mind again about what you were asking?

Rob32 wrote: »

post#31
Anyway thanks for the helpful post but it doesnt answer my question, I know a loose connection will cause increased resistance and heat build up, Im not asking about that.

Rob32

Yes and if you post what I said not what snippets suit your arguement youd see I asked is the fusible links something youd expect to be checked, I then got my answer and you among other people decided to continually talk about the altenator.

Bruthal

Rob32 wrote: »

Yes and if you post what I said not what snippets suit your arguement youd see I asked is the fusible links something youd expect to be checked, I then got my answer and you among other people decided to continually talk about the altenator.

If you read what you said yourself, compared to what you later complain you didnt ask, along with the attitude you seem to have, you might see people were trying to help. But i very much doubt you can see that.

dieselbug

Just one question.

You said you are a fitter and not a mechanic, trained and certified in your area of expertise. You also said a second year apprentice fitted the alternator and battery.
So is there also a qualified mechanic, technician, working there who the apprentice is being trained by?
The reason I ask is, if a qualified tech is present should he not have been consulted on something you or the apprentice may not have been sure or fully confident of?

and thats two questions.