TG4 HD

Kenny Powers

UPC just announced from today they will carry TG4 HD Has anyone any idea when this will come to SaorView?

The Cush

Kenny Powers wrote: »

UPC just announced from today they will carry TG4 HD Has anyone any idea when this will come to SaorView?

Probably when the issue of Saorview transmission and distribution tariffs is sorted and the second mux launched, maybe early next year according to Saorview/RTÉNL.

STB

Kenny Powers wrote: »

UPC just announced from today they will carry TG4 HD Has anyone any idea when this will come to SaorView?

After switchover at this stage.

UPC shouldnt have been offered a station that isnt natively broadcasting in HD yet. Its primarily TG4's responsibility to get it made available to the FTA customers of the country before pandering to fecking pay tv companies looking for it under the must offer rule.

UPC should have been told "not until it is available on Saorview" (the platform for primary and free delivery of TV in Ireland) and is actually on air.

Tá duine éigin ag iarraidh pointe eolais a chur in iúl

coylemj

STB wrote: »

UPC should have been told "not until it is available on Saorview" (the platform for primary and free delivery of TV in Ireland) and is actually on air.

The farmers get enough freebies with paying no taxes and all their kids in colleges at the townies expense, it's time we got something that we have to pay for before they get it for free

STB

coylemj wrote: »

The farmers get enough freebies with paying no taxes and all their kids in colleges at the townies expense, it's time we got something that we have to pay for before they get it for free

Farmers ? No-one has to subscribe to pay TV to get it OR at least thats how it should be.

Their resposibility under the 2009 Act is to establish, maintain and operate a national television broadcasting service, which shall have the character of a public service, be a free-to-air service and be made available, in so far as it is reasonably practicable, to the whole community on the island of Ireland.

Digifriendly

STB wrote: »

Farmers ? No-one has to subscribe to pay TV to get it OR at least thats how it should be.

Their resposibility under the 2009 Act is to establish, maintain and operate a national television broadcasting service, which shall have the character of a public service, be a free-to-air service and be made available, in so far as it is reasonably practicable, to the whole community on the island of Ireland.

Then TG4 HD should be available in the north as well.

coylemj

Digifriendly wrote: »

Then TG4 HD should be available in the north as well.

Don't be giving the Orangemen more excuses to go out marching again!

Digifriendly

coylemj wrote: »

Don't be giving the Orangemen more excuses to go out marching again!

Multiplicity of RTE aerials in unionist strongholds shows attraction of ROI channels here in NI and I guess many orangemen watch them!

coylemj

Digifriendly wrote: »

Multiplicity of RTE aerials in unionist strongholds shows attraction of ROI channels here in NI and I guess many orangemen watch them!

I think you misinterpreted my earlier post. I meant that when they hear they can't get TG4 HD on Saorview.......

MarkK

STB wrote: »

pay tv companies looking for it under the must offer rule.

Wasn't it just that TG4 did all the necessary work to upgrade themselves to broadcast in HD and due to circumstances outside their control Saorview cannot carry it yet?

The license payers who subscribe to UPC helped pay for TG4 to upgrade to HD as much as Saorview viewers did.

STB wrote: »

UPC should have been told "not until it is available on Saorview" (the platform for primary and free delivery of TV in Ireland) and is actually on air.

Why should UPC customers be denied TG4 HD for reasons not in the responsibility of either TG4 or UPC?

The Cush

STB wrote: »

UPC shouldnt have been offered a station that isnt natively broadcasting in HD yet. Its primarily TG4's responsibility to get it made available to the FTA customers of the country before pandering to fecking pay tv companies looking for it under the must offer rule.

UPC should have been told "not until it is available on Saorview" (the platform for primary and free delivery of TV in Ireland) and is actually on air.

If Saorview offered free carriage and distribution to TG4HD like UPC do for the Irish channels incl. the Oireachtas Channel then it would be there. That it can't do of course without spending public money so we'll have to wait until the tariff issue is sorted out.

watty

It would actually be illegal for RTENL/Soarview to offer free carriage to TG4. Or anyone else.
Obviously they could offer free carriage to everyone, but that wouldn't work.

UPC and Sky can offer "free" carriage to anyone they please as no-one can have their service without paying for it. In fact UPC and Sky have to Pay for many of their channels.

Sam Russell

watty wrote: »

It would actually be illegal for RTENL/Soarview to offer free carriage to TG4. Or anyone else.
Obviously they could offer free carriage to everyone, but that wouldn't work.

.

Except TV3.

They are always a special case.

STB

MarkK wrote: »

Wasn't it just that TG4 did all the necessary work to upgrade themselves to broadcast in HD and due to circumstances outside their control Saorview cannot carry it yet?

The license payers who subscribe to UPC helped pay for TG4 to upgrade to HD as much as Saorview viewers did.

Why should UPC customers be denied TG4 HD for reasons not in the responsibility of either TG4 or UPC?

Paying a licence has nothing to do with UPC.

UPC are a private multinational pay only company who enter into private agreements with those who choose to pay for their services. You do not need UPC or at least you shouldn't have to enter into such a private agreement to view TG4HD. Just wait til the BAI start getting the phone calls. TG4 is funded by the exchequer directly, not TV licence money. Why is it exclusively on a pay only platform ????

TG4 are on only obliged to offer broadcast services to other platforms under the must offer when that services are being broadcast on the national platform. At the moment they are not broadcasting a HD station on the national platform so it shouldn't have been offered in the first instance. There is nothing to offer.

TG4's primary statutory obligation is offering their service FTA, be it in 3D, HD or whatever was approved by the Minister to the public they serve.

That is the reason why UPC customers should be made wait. The tail does not wag the dog.

The Cush wrote: »

If Saorview offered free carriage and distribution to TG4HD like UPC do for the Irish channels incl. the Oireachtas Channel then it would be there. That it can't do of course without spending public money so we'll have to wait until the tariff issue is sorted out.

Only broadcast services can be offered by PSB's. Oireachtas TV is not a state broadcaster, it was a pipe dream that no one was willing to pay for and it was not a statutory requirement that it ever be on any platform ("may").

Digifriendly wrote: »

Then TG4 HD should be available in the north as well.

And will be.

formerly scottish paddy

Nobody was rushing to put their hands in their pocket when RTENL had to borrow €70m to build the DTT network now they want on it for free!!
If you don't like the tariff build your own network! :mad:

The Cush

STB wrote: »

Only broadcast services can be offered by PSB's. Oireachtas TV is not a state broadcaster, it was a pipe dream that no one was willing to pay for and it was not a statutory requirement that it ever be on any platform ("may").

Correct and I never said different but UPC do carry it on their platform at no cost to the Oireachtas and recently moved it from 801 up to 207 in the news section. The Houses Commission have a consultant in at the moment compiling a report on future plans for the channel.

dbcool

there's no barriers at all to it launching on SAORSAT!plenty of space not being used on the rtenl transponder!
plus as it doesn't get tg3 - it would be a nice addition!

The Cush

dbcool wrote: »

there's no barriers at all to it launching on SAORSAT!plenty of space not being used on the rtenl transponder!
plus as it doesn't get tg3 - it would be a nice addition!

The only barrier to launching it on Saorview/Saorsat atm is the tariff.

dbcool

The Cush wrote: »

The only barrier to launching it on Saorview/Saorsat atm is the tariff.

as they are already paying a a tariff for tg4 can they not just replace tg4 with tg4 hd as they have done with rte2?

The Cush

dbcool wrote: »

as they are already paying a a tariff for tg4 can they not just replace tg4 with tg4 hd as they have done with rte2?

The tariff for an HD channel would be more, higher bitrate. The tariff issue is under discussion at the moment and there is no capacity on the current mux for a HD channel or any other channel.

Sam Russell

An HD channel is equal to about 3 SD channels. If they launch the second mux, there would be room for RTE 1 HD, RTE 2 HD, TV3 HD, and TG4 HD, 3e, RTE NN, RTE 1+1/ RTEjr and still leave room for OTV SD - if that is what is wanted. There would also be room for a good few radio channels.

This should cost TV3 and TG4 less than one analogue channel, so whatever their problems are, it is just positioning to get a free ride.

As I have said before, RTE should get mux1 and mux2 should go to the rest. This would allow a statistical mux to share bandwidth between the RTE channels and avoid complaints from the others if the remaining bandwidth did not suit them.

Of course, any further expansion would require a third mux and much more investment by RTE NL so doi not expect that anytime soon.

watty

However RTENL have the plans for 4+ PSB mux as more channels become HD.

There is no spectrum or technical issue. Mostly the problem is accountants to do with Oireachtas TV and TV3

reslfj

watty wrote: »

However RTENL have the plans for 4+ PSB mux as more channels become HD.
There is no spectrum or technical issue.

The ROI did get 8 UHF layers (for 8 DTT muxes) in the GE06 agreement + (at least) one VHF layer (maybe only if DVB-T2 in large area SFN mode is used). Two VHF DTT layers should not be impossible to implement.

E.g. Finland got three VHF DTT layers, but got no T-DAB allocation.

Now, after the 800 MHz band has been released for 4G/mobile broadband, 7 UHF layers should be possible.
However using all 7 layers may require some reduction of the overspill into NI. A site like Clermont Carn has up to now been much restricted towards NI, but after October 24. this restriction is largely removed. This as a result of the MOU and of the Good Friday agreement - where overspill is now positivly wanted.

If the ROI and UK/NI can agree on a new coordinated SFN based channel allocation for the island of Ireland - even more muxes should be possible in both NI and the ROI.

Spectrum is not the problem for more DTT on the island - it's money (and maybe politics)

Lars

watty

But Lars, some are stupidly reserved for Pay DTT so definitely not 7 for Saorview

But we are agreed, the issue is purely monetary unless all channels want 4K Ultra HD

There are limits to the size of SFNs. They are great for adding "fill in" sites later on same channel though.

MarkK

How much actual HD content is there going to be?

From:
http://cce.gno.ie/ent/2012/07July/10TG4HD.php

"TG4 have told CCÉ News that their HD channel will broadcast on the UPC cable platform at first. HD programming will be available from time to time, but a full HD service from TG4 will happen in a year or two as more content becomes available in HD"

icdg

The Cush wrote: »

If Saorview offered free carriage and distribution to TG4HD like UPC do for the Irish channels incl. the Oireachtas Channel then it would be there.

Since all Saorview channels are Irish, how would you propose RTÉ NL make any money? Either RTÉ has to cross-subsidise RTÉ NL from its broadcasting activities or RTÉ NL has to charge broadcasters for carriage. Can't have it both ways, I'm afraid.

Sam Russell

Why did RTE NL drop the SFN from 3rock/Kippure? Were there problems for viewers in the North or border ares?

reslfj

watty wrote: »

But Lars, some are stupidly reserved for Pay DTT so definitely not 7 for Saorview

But we are agreed, the issue is purely monetary unless all channels want 4K Ultra HD

There is ´no physical reservation nor is there any agreement about 'Pay TV' since Boxer left (in 2009 AFAIR). But

- a small country cannot support a large number of FTA channels - it's part of the price you pay for being both small and independent.
In Denmark the dk-TV2 is both Pay-DTT (~2 €/month) and has advertising. In Norway no-TV2 is Pay-DTT. In Sweden se-TV4 SD is FTA, but the se-TV4 HD version is Pay-DTT (in the se-DVB-T2 mux6).

I don't see much value in 4K Ultra HD for private homes 50-60" is plenty for my living room - but the new HEVC (standard in 2013) may compress 4K into bitrates possible to transmit within a DVB-T2 mux.

watty wrote: »

There are limits to the size of SFNs. They are great for adding "fill in" sites later on same channel though.

With DVB-T2 in 32k mode the limits are very large indeed - likely larger than the island of Ireland - The capacity of each mux is a little lower due to the longer guardinterval and different pilot pattern. Guardintervals of 448usec (134km) og 532usec (159km) are possible with the 32k mode.

It may be better in terms of capacity with a little shorter guardinterval and using two alternating UHF channels across the land.


Lars

Johnmb

icdg wrote: »

Since all Saorview channels are Irish, how would you propose RTÉ NL make any money? Either RTÉ has to cross-subsidise RTÉ NL from its broadcasting activities or RTÉ NL has to charge broadcasters for carriage. Can't have it both ways, I'm afraid.

If they are going to insist on charging for a TV licence, that money should be spent on the infrastructure first and foremost, not on subsidising certain channels...

The Cush

icdg wrote: »

Since all Saorview channels are Irish, how would you propose RTÉ NL make any money? ...

Can't have it both ways, I'm afraid.

You failed to quote the rest of my post

The Cush wrote: »

If Saorview offered free carriage and distribution to TG4HD like UPC do for the Irish channels incl. the Oireachtas Channel then it would be there. That it can't do of course without spending public money so we'll have to wait until the tariff issue is sorted out.

The Cush

icdg wrote: »

Since all Saorview channels are Irish, how would you propose RTÉ NL make any money? ...

Can't have it both ways, I'm afraid.

You failed to quote the rest of my post

The Cush wrote: »

If Saorview offered free carriage and distribution to TG4HD like UPC do for the Irish channels incl. the Oireachtas Channel then it would be there. That it can't do of course without spending public money so we'll have to wait until the tariff issue is sorted out.

lawhec

Sam Russell wrote: »

Why did RTE NL drop the SFN from 3rock/Kippure? Were there problems for viewers in the North or border ares?

If the rumours were to be believed it was to ease potential worries in Dublin about potential 4G services in the 800MHz band causing interference to DVB-T reception.

The Cush

lawhec wrote: »

If the rumours were to be believed it was to ease potential worries in Dublin about potential 4G services in the 800MHz band causing interference to DVB-T reception.

I think I started that rumour here and was purely speculation as RTÉNL have never said what the actual reason for the change was.

lawhec

The Cush wrote: »

I think I started that rumour here and was purely speculation as RTÉNL have never said what the actual reason for the change was.

It is one that is possible I guess and one RTÉNL would want to avoid (draws parallel when Channel 5 launched and a few days later a thunderstorm in London kept interrupting the satellite link to the Croydon TX resulting in bad publicity and the eventual installation of a direct line feed). Another is that they had trouble getting the SFN with Kippure to work properly though there didn't seem to be any reports on here of reception problems in recent times up to the change. One final possibility was to move the multiplex into a Group A aerial frequency to support those who may have had old aerials installed for RTÉ1 & RTÉ2 (and as a later consequence TV3) but never bothered much about TG4 to upgrade to a wideband UHF aerial and allow these viewers to more easily receive Saorview.

Sam Russell

lawhec wrote: »

It is one that is possible I guess and one RTÉNL would want to avoid (draws parallel when Channel 5 launched and a few days later a thunderstorm in London kept interrupting the satellite link to the Croydon TX resulting in bad publicity and the eventual installation of a direct line feed). Another is that they had trouble getting the SFN with Kippure to work properly though there didn't seem to be any reports on here of reception problems in recent times up to the change. One final possibility was to move the multiplex into a Group A aerial frequency to support those who may have had old aerials installed for RTÉ1 & RTÉ2 (and as a later consequence TV3) but never bothered much about TG4 to upgrade to a wideband UHF aerial and allow these viewers to more easily receive Saorview.

My question is 'Why drop the SFN?'

Surely, if it to move out of the way of 800Mhz band, that applies to Kippure as well.
If it to use a Group A antenna, then that applied when they set it up. And what about all those that put the correct aeriel for Saorview ch54/58 in the first place? Afterall it has been on those frequencies for over four years.
And why the sudden decision, with only a weeks notice?

It all sounds a bit of 'make it up as you go along'. Mind you, that's the Saorview story.:mad:

reslfj

Sam Russell wrote: »

My question is 'Why drop the SFN?'

I don't know, ....

but the two masts are 9.7 km apart, which is more than the 28 usec ~ 8.4 km required for DVB-T 8k gi=1/32.
Three Rock Mountain must have been delayed by more than (9.7 - 8.4)/0.3 = 4.35 usec and I guess more likely by 8-10 usec (~2.4 - 3 km) to ensure good - within the standard - reception NE of Three Rock (Dublin)

Delaying Three Rock, however, makes the timing much worse SW of Kippure, in places where both Kippure and Three Rock signals are available. Even if Three Rock is directional towars Dublin, a 63kW transmitter will send some signal in directions between S and W.

Another potential problem with two high powered TX SFN sites is fading due to identical symbols being at the about the same amplitude but being 180deg our of phase - as seen by the receiver - for some of the COFDM carrieres (often called 0dB echo).

This is one point where DVB-T2 is much better than DVB-T - better FEC, rotated constellations, better optimised pilots...



Lars

PS!
This page from Sony(c) shows how the sum of two TX signals with equal amplitude at the receiver will be received. Note that for ~2/3 of the frequencies the sum is stronger (+3dB = 2 times where both are in phase), but for some few frequencies (letters a, b, c, d) the sum-signal will be very low (even lower than the 10 dB show on this picture).

Sam Russell

Thanks reslfj

If I remember correctly, I think that originally they planned Greystones to be part of the SFN, but then dropped the Greystone site, and have now dropped the Three Rock site. Both Kippure and Thrre Rock are intended for large area reception (up as far and further than the border). Does that mean that SFNs are inappropriate for transmitters that are intended for such wide areas and are better suited for services between the transmitters, like for example fillins for cities?

reslfj

Sam Russell wrote: »

Does that mean that SFNs are inappropriate for transmitters that are intended for such wide areas and are better suited for services between the transmitters, like for example fillins for cities?

The Irish and the UK DTT networks are both designed as MFN i.e with the smallest possible guardinterval (DVB-T 8k gi1/32 = 28usec 8.4 km = DVB-T2 32k gi=1/128)

DAB operates with a gi=246usec(gi~1/4) = 73.8km.

DVB-T2 in 32k mode can have a gi=19/128 = 532usec = 159 km. This should make country wide SFN's possible - though the current TX positions may or may not be optimal for such a large SFN.

In Sweden Teracom operates a UHF DVB-T2 32k gi=1/8 mux (Skåne Nät6) having a gi=448 usec ~ 134km and a 7MHz VHF DVB-T2 32k gi=1/8 mux (Nät7) where the gi=8/7*448 = 512 usec ~ 153 km.

(source www.teracom.se)

Lars

STB

lawhec wrote: »

If the rumours were to be believed it was to ease potential worries in Dublin about potential 4G services in the 800MHz band causing interference to DVB-T reception.

More than just rumours. White space reuse for Cognitive Radio Systems is where this is all coming from. 738 was far too close. Its well known that by 2020 Channels 49 -60 will also be given up. Thats not far away.

Sam Russell

STB wrote: »

More than just rumours. White space reuse for Cognitive Radio Systems is where this is all coming from. 738 was far too close. Its well known that by 2020 Channels 49 -60 will also be given up. Thats not far away.

So why not move Kippure as well?

Was it the SFN or the channel?

reslfj

STB wrote: »

More than just rumours. White space reuse for Cognitive Radio Systems is where this is all coming from. 738 was far too close.

When people talk about 'white space' reusage in a DTT context, it is in most cases the (local) reuse of any frequency with the DTT channels not used for DTT muxes in same (local) area.
I doubt this will be easy (possible?) without problems for to many viewers - but that of course just me?
For LTE800 - channel 57 allows a very inexpensive lowpass filter to be used . Newer DVB-T/T2 recievers can easily receive ch57 with a much stonger signal above 791 MHz - if its analogue frontend (LNA and RF tuner) is not RF overloaded.
4G LTE800 will not need many basestations within Dublin - LTE1800, LTE2600 and later the present 3G spectrum (2100 GHz) will provide the large amount of spectrum for the much highere 4G/LTE capacity needed within large urban areas.

STB wrote: »

738 was far too close. Its well known that by 2020 Channels 49 -60 will also be given up. Thats not far away.

Well known, but very far from a fact in Europe.

Lars

watty

Linda Doyle is behind "white space" in Ireland. It's Faith and Philosphy, not driven by Engineering, mathematics or sound science. Fashionable Buzz Words.

"White Space" Radio as proposed by Linda Doyle of CTVR (Comreg's Favourite) is outdoor WiFi for Yuppies that won't bring rural Broadband and would damage TV reception for 10s of thousands.

CTVR has been a huge waste of tax payer's money.

Even the so called "Digital Dividend" as promoted by Ofcom and especially Comreg is ill conceived, won't deliver Rural Broadband and in Suburban/Urban interfere with Cable TV and Cable Broadband (the phones and Mobiles in people's homes). With Rural Digital Dividend the issue is that poor mast head amps will be overloaded by the Base Station.

There should be no more channels given up for Mobile. TV will need MORE spectrum to deliver services. The "Digital Dividend" was predicated on SFN and SD only TV. In practice there is a limit to geographical area for SFN and also no regional variations allowed.

The Cush

Kenny Powers wrote: »

UPC just announced from today they will carry TG4 HD Has anyone any idea when this will come to SaorView?

A question on TG4 HD last month in the Dáil

Thursday, 14 February 2013

241. Deputy Thomas P. Broughan
asked the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources when TG4 HD will begin airing on Saorview and Sky; the reason there has not been a public review of TG4 HD which TG4 SD will continue to exist on satellite and cable platforms; if he will report on the amount of content TG4 intends to aid in HD; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [7997/13]

Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Pat Rabbitte): The timing of the launch of TG4 HD on SAORVIEW and Sky and other platforms is a matter for TG4 in commercial negotiations with the various platform providers. The development of a full TG4 HD service is one which may take several years, given the level of investment required to, inter alia, build and equip new HD studios.

The current TG4 HD service on UPC is a trial service only and TG4 will use the lessons learnt from the trial to develop and enhance their plans for a future HD service. In the current UPC trial they are offering primarily acquired HD content and upscaled SD content. I understand from TG4 that they do not plan to offer both a HD and SD service in the longer term and that they plan to provide HD service only, whilst ensuring that TG4 can continue to be viewed by those viewers who do not have a HD television set.

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail2013021400081?opendocument#WRO01950

swoofer

i dont see why the gaa dont insist the make the games be in hd at least. I dont watch anything else and their new transition between replays is a right pain as well.

icdg

Pat Rabbitte wrote:

I understand from TG4 that they do not plan to offer both a HD and SD service in the longer term and that they plan to provide HD service only, whilst ensuring that TG4 can continue to be viewed by those viewers who do not have a HD television set.

Not sure how they propose to do that, it works for Saorview where all equipment is HD capable, but Sky and UPC subscribers with SD recievers cannot view HD channels and in fact do not even see them on their EPGs.

Antenna

On TG4 yesterday (Sunday), after live GAA coverage, came across highlights of the Cork V Limerick hurling league game of the previous day being broadcast (it had been live on Setanta). The picture quality of this was absolutely horrific, what people might call LD (Low definition) quality, with very severe blurring effects with even slow camera pans.

Its just Ironic the talk of an upgrade of Tg4 to HD on terrestrial, when at times the present quality is far below decent SD quality

watty

icdg wrote: »

Not sure how they propose to do that, it works for Saorview where all equipment is HD capable, but Sky and UPC subscribers with SD recievers cannot view HD channels and in fact do not even see them on their EPGs.

Obviously SD & HD versions on Sky & UPC and HD only on Saorvision.

STB

watty wrote: »

Obviously SD & HD versions on Sky & UPC and HD only on Saorvision.

But such a bad answer from DCENR. It dodged the question with tests in the first instance. They should not be testing on a pay only service. TG4 need to get their house together. The quality of the GAA broadcasts is very poor. I'd imagine that there is an element of SD and bad OB plus a very low bitrate.

watty

When did Comreg or DCENR ...