Kilkenny under Cody

ceegee

Just thought I'd start this thread to discuss the way some people have branded the hurling championship as boring/predictable due to Kilkennys dominance under Cody.

Disclaimer: I'm viewing this through black and amber lenses so may be slightly biased.


To me, theres been so much great drama to the championships during this time that the boring tag is completely unjustified.

Cody's first win in the millenium final: Coming off the back of 2 final losses in a row, and trophyless since 93, Kilkenny's full forward line of Carey, Carter and Shefflin score 4-9 between them in a 5-15 to 1-14 victory over Offaly.

The Rebel uprising - Off the back of a 02 final win against Clare, Kilkenny faced Cork in the 03 final and gained revenge for 99. The following year, chasing the 3 in a row, they get demolished as Cork dominate with a new style running game. Cork follow up in 05 with a win over Galway.

06 - In a role reversal, Kilkenny are now the ones looking to stop Cork from getting a 3 in a row. For the final time for the foreseeable future, several outsiders cheer on the Cats to victory

07 final - I'll concede this one. not the most entertaining or memorable.

08 final - Possibly the best performance most of us will see from a hurling team, a score of 3-30 from 35 shots with 3-24 coming from play.

09/10/11 - A trilogy of classic finals, an emerging Tipp side push Kilkenny to the limit in 09, stop the "drive for five" in 10 thanks to Lar's hat-trick, before Kilkenny regained the trophy in 11

This year - the 3 games vs Galway provided compelling viewing.

Taking Kilkenny out of the equation, the Munster championship during the last decade also provided great moments as Waterford, Tipp and Cork struggled for dominance.

To sum up my rambling post, despite the fact that Kilkenny won most of the finals in Codys era, the journeys to get there and the finals themselves have been top class viewing for a sports fan, with as much drama and tension as anything the gaelic football championship has provided in that time

bullpost

As you say, there has been lots of excitement but underlying that there has also been a predictability too.
Every year all the pundits tip Kilkenny and admit they can't see past Kilkenny and they are nearly always right.
This makes it less interesting for the neutral.

ceegee wrote: »

Just thought I'd start this thread to discuss the way some people have branded the hurling championship as boring/predictable due to Kilkennys dominance under Cody.

Disclaimer: I'm viewing this through black and amber lenses so may be slightly biased.


To me, theres been so much great drama to the championships during this time that the boring tag is completely unjustified.

Cody's first win in the millenium final: Coming off the back of 2 final losses in a row, and trophyless since 93, Kilkenny's full forward line of Carey, Carter and Shefflin score 4-9 between them in a 5-15 to 1-14 victory over Offaly.

The Rebel uprising - Off the back of a 02 final win against Clare, Kilkenny faced Cork in the 03 final and gained revenge for 99. The following year, chasing the 3 in a row, they get demolished as Cork dominate with a new style running game. Cork follow up in 05 with a win over Galway.

06 - In a role reversal, Kilkenny are now the ones looking to stop Cork from getting a 3 in a row. For the final time for the foreseeable future, several outsiders cheer on the Cats to victory

07 final - I'll concede this one. not the most entertaining or memorable.

08 final - Possibly the best performance most of us will see from a hurling team, a score of 3-30 from 35 shots with 3-24 coming from play.

09/10/11 - A trilogy of classic finals, an emerging Tipp side push Kilkenny to the limit in 09, stop the "drive for five" in 10 thanks to Lar's hat-trick, before Kilkenny regained the trophy in 11

This year - the 3 games vs Galway provided compelling viewing.

Taking Kilkenny out of the equation, the Munster championship during the last decade also provided great moments as Waterford, Tipp and Cork struggled for dominance.

To sum up my rambling post, despite the fact that Kilkenny won most of the finals in Codys era, the journeys to get there and the finals themselves have been top class viewing for a sports fan, with as much drama and tension as anything the gaelic football championship has provided in that time

Tipperary Stonethrower

ceegee wrote: »

Just thought I'd start this thread to discuss the way some people have branded the hurling championship as boring/predictable due to Kilkennys dominance under Cody.

Disclaimer: I'm viewing this through black and amber lenses so may be slightly biased.


To me, theres been so much great drama to the championships during this time that the boring tag is completely unjustified.

Cody's first win in the millenium final: Coming off the back of 2 final losses in a row, and trophyless since 93, Kilkenny's full forward line of Carey, Carter and Shefflin score 4-9 between them in a 5-15 to 1-14 victory over Offaly.

The Rebel uprising - Off the back of a 02 final win against Clare, Kilkenny faced Cork in the 03 final and gained revenge for 99. The following year, chasing the 3 in a row, they get demolished as Cork dominate with a new style running game. Cork follow up in 05 with a win over Galway.

06 - In a role reversal, Kilkenny are now the ones looking to stop Cork from getting a 3 in a row. For the final time for the foreseeable future, several outsiders cheer on the Cats to victory

07 final - I'll concede this one. not the most entertaining or memorable.

08 final - Possibly the best performance most of us will see from a hurling team, a score of 3-30 from 35 shots with 3-24 coming from play.

09/10/11 - A trilogy of classic finals, an emerging Tipp side push Kilkenny to the limit in 09, stop the "drive for five" in 10 thanks to Lar's hat-trick, before Kilkenny regained the trophy in 11

This year - the 3 games vs Galway provided compelling viewing.

Taking Kilkenny out of the equation, the Munster championship during the last decade also provided great moments as Waterford, Tipp and Cork struggled for dominance.

To sum up my rambling post, despite the fact that Kilkenny won most of the finals in Codys era, the journeys to get there and the finals themselves have been top class viewing for a sports fan, with as much drama and tension as anything the gaelic football championship has provided in that time

Much truth to what you say though the Leinster championship has been fairly poor during that time. This probably partly accounted for KK success as they didn't have to peak until late July. Teams in Munster must peak for the last Sunday of May.

adrian522

Yeah, but somehow it's deemed as an advantage to Kilkenny, yet all the year's Galway were straight into the semi it's somehow a disadvantage.

Also as Tipp showed in 2010, you don't really need to peak for the first Sunday in May any more.

randd1

Tipperary Stonethrower wrote: »

Much truth to what you say though the Leinster championship has been fairly poor during that time. This probably partly accounted for KK success as they didn't have to peak until late July. Teams in Munster must peak for the last Sunday of May.

That's not really true. Kilkenny often produced the same level of performance in Leinster as they did outside it in that time.

The only difference was the teams outside Leinster were better and playing Kilkenny at a later stage in the championship would force them to up their performance level anyway.

This "peaking" theory is pure bo***x, it effectively means you're training for one match, there's no county that does that.

Momentum would be a better way of saying it, as the more you progress, the better you have to become mentally and skill-wise because the opposition will be better. The physical side of things is already in place since before the summer.

nice_guy80

I just think Kilkenny have been ahead of every other team since 2005/2006 in terms of their preparation and training

you never hear about the effort the players put in, but they have the best strength and conditioning coaches working with them and good facilities for the players to use.

the honesty they bring to their training and to games is what gets them over the line.

there is a serious work ethic in the squad. the dedication to skill development alone year on year is unreal.

they went back to doing the simple things last Sunday and it worked for them - hunger, workrate, hooking, blocking.

The_Kew_Tour

They could very easy have lost half those finals like Cork(twice) Tipp(09 and 11). You could say they met poor teams at good times like Offaly and Limerick in 2000 and 2007 respectively. Thats just the little niggle bits out of the way:p

There domination in the 2008 final though for me was the greatest display I have ever seen from a team.

They have raised the bar and its not their fault nobody is coming within touching distance of them. They will be here for few more years yet, although I think Cody should leave. He achieved it all now why get greedy.

Hidalgo

Part of the reason the boring or predictable tag gets bandied about is because some of the AI finals have been so one sided.

V Offaly in 2000, Limerick in 07 and Waterford in 08, all over as contests well before the final whistle.
Of course that's not KK's fault that they dominated these games so much and even if the final was one sided, there was some excellent games prior to the AI
(Offaly V Cork in 2000 being one of my fav examples).

Hidalgo

nice_guy80 wrote: »

I just think Kilkenny have been ahead of every other team since 2005/2006 in terms of their preparation and training

you never hear about the effort the players put in, but they have the best strength and conditioning coaches working with them and good facilities for the players to use.

IMO there's not that much difference between counties preparation at the top tier. They all have dietitians, fitness coaches, statisticians etc. Fitness wise and preparation is fairly even amongst the top counties.

They simply have some of the best hurlers ever to play the game all together in the same team.

Plastik

Kilkenny under Cody have been absolutely awesome, much as it pains me to say it. They can not but be admired for what they have achieved year on year. Sport worldwide has shown us how hard it is to be consistently at the top for a prolonged period of time.

Rebels abú.

maroondog

The Cody era the longer its gone on hurling championship has become less and less competitive. KK won Leinster with ease most years bar the slip up in 04 against Wexford and obviously this year. The Munster champioship has been weak of late with Clare and Limerick falling back. The result is fewer strong AI contenders during an era where KK have ruled (not their problem i guess). The finals in 09 and 10 were excellent and drawn final this year was exciting too. However there have been a lot of bad games over last few years, especially in the earlier rounds with massively one sided games. The 2007 final was poor and 2008 was even worse, over after 15 mins. I see m Cegee refer to 2008 final as Possibly the best performance most of us will see from a hurling team, a score of 3-30 from 35 shots with 3-24 coming from play.
which was fine for KK fans but the rest us had turned over to Super Sunday rather watch out the rest of that cake walk.

Looking to 2013, there are signs of certain teams improving and can only be good news. More competitive counties are badly needed;
Clare won another U21 AI this year (2 in 4 years) so should definitively be more of a force next season.
Limerick look to be improving under Allen and should come on again next year.
Galway had a great year after being slightly disappointing for past few years particularly when it came to latter end of Championship and hopefully they will build on this year.
Cork also improving under JBM (made a semi this year) but the loss of Sweetnam to Munster Rugby team ala Tomas O Leary is bit a set back.
Dublin have had a bad season but did win league in 11 and have made under age finals (2 minor final in a row) so lost good young players emerging.

So all in all I think next season should see an even more exciting Championship than the one just finished up and hopefully Hurling Championship will become less predictable.

JBG2011

There's no doubt that while there has been many cracking games over the past decade, hurling has lost a lot of the romance of the 1990s, when we had some non established counties getting to and winning All Irelands. However, its not Kilkenny's fault that they went to a higher level than everyone else.

The golden age of Kilkenny hurling will eventually come to an end - it could be next year or three years but it will come - and I think we'll return to a much open championship with different counties winning.

It would be nice to see Galway, Waterford, Clare, Dublin or Limerick bagging an All Ireland in the next three years and Wexford and Offaly returning to competitiveness. It would also be great to see hurling emerge in a non hurling county.

WesternZulu

ceegee wrote: »

To sum up my rambling post, despite the fact that Kilkenny won most of the finals in Codys era, the journeys to get there and the finals themselves have been top class viewing for a sports fan, with as much drama and tension as anything the gaelic football championship has provided in that time

Cannot say that I agree with that at all.
The Gaelic Football championship has produced a lot more drama in that time than what the hurling has offered.

Since 2000:
- Tyrone & Armagh have both won their 1st All-Irelands.
- Cork/Dublin/Donegal have won All-Irelands after periods of long waits.
- Galway have also won one in that time.
- Laois/Westmeath/Sligo/Roscommon have all won provincial titles.
- Fermanagh/Wexford/Wicklow/Limerick have all had extended runs in the Championship.


Kerry have produced their best team since the 80's but yet could not dominate the way that KK have done and would be classed by many as the 2nd best team of the noughties.
They had very nearly been beaten by teams like Longford and Sligo on their path of All-Ireland glory.

KK have been so dominant that their path to their final glory is rarely in doubt.
Not good for neutral followers of the game and certainly doesn't add to the drama and tension of the hurling championship.

ceegee

WesternZulu wrote: »

ceegee wrote: »

To sum up my rambling post, despite the fact that Kilkenny won most of the finals in Codys era, the journeys to get there and the finals themselves have been top class viewing for a sports fan, with as much drama and tension as anything the gaelic football championship has provided in that time

Cannot say that I agree with that at all.
The Gaelic Football championship has produced a lot more drama in that time than what the hurling has offered.

Since 2000:
- Tyrone & Armagh have both won their 1st All-Irelands.
- Cork/Dublin/Donegal have won All-Irelands after periods of long waits.
- Galway have also won one in that time.
- Laois/Westmeath/Sligo/Roscommon have all won provincial titles.
- Fermanagh/Wexford/Wicklow/Limerick have all had extended runs in the Championship.


Kerry have produced their best team since the 80's but yet could not dominate the way that KK have done and would be classed by many as the 2nd best team of the noughties.
They had very nearly been beaten by teams like Longford and Sligo on their path of All-Ireland glory.

KK have been so dominant that their path to their final glory is rarely in doubt.
Not good for neutral followers of the game and certainly doesn't add to the drama and tension of the hurling championship.

Bar Connaught, the provincial football championships have been dominated by the same one or two teams since 2000 - Cork and Kerry have won everything in Munster, Armagh and Tyrone won everything in Ulster til Donegal arrived 2 years ago, Dublin have won 8 Leinsters.
At All Ireland level Kerry and Tyrone shared 7 in a row.

With the amount of teams taking part in the football there'll always be one unexpected team who goes on a bit of a run (eg Wicklow), very few of them ever come within an asses roar of challenging for the title though. Antrim and Dublin have made similar runs in the hurling championship in different years. Hell, even New York have made a provincial final, while Derry bridged a 92 year gap to win Ulster in 2000.

Tombo2001

On a few occasions, I've been to the football final and hurling final the same year.....and even when the football final has been close, it hasnt been as exciting as the hurling in my view....

2010 is a good example.....now admittedly, that was imho the best hurling final in the past ten years.....but the match between Cork and Down two weeks later was not great standard, a lot of wides, so even though it was very close - Cork won it by a point - it wasnt all that memorable for a neutral.

To turn the thing on its head; the Golden Age of football is (as far as I know) perceived as the late 1970s early 1980s when you had that great Dublin Kerry rivalry and then Kerry Offaly rivalry. It wasnt a golden age because Kerry were winning all around them, rather it was because of those rivalries, and the characters associated with them.

Whether or not this is a golden age for hurling, the past ten years has been dominated by similar rivalries.

In 2006, it was Cork who were seen as the modern face of hurling, not kilkenny. And they had a fantastic team......they had dominated Kilkenny in the 2004 final, they had a very close match with Kilkenny in 2003. That was the background to the 2006 win....

The three finals from 2009-2011 were stunning....each one of them, especially 2010 with the drama of Shefflin going off injured, the early goals each half and so on.

And then this year, to see Galway ambush Kilkenny back in July, the almost do the same in the first final, then Kilkenny finally come good in the replay....it was high drama.

And similar to the Cork Kerry era, there have been great characters involved....household names both from Kilkenny and from the rival teams.....Sean Og, Joe Deane, Lar Corbett, Joe Canning....

The football has not delivered this much in the past decade.....certainly not in the finals.....in my view. There have been three or four great finals......but not so many rivalries.....really only Tyrone Kerry.......as Cork Kerry didnt produce any great finals.....

Arguably the Armagh Tyrone rivalry was a great one, but the pinnacle to that was the 2005 semi final.....I'd classify it alongside the Cork Waterford, of which the 2006 semi was probably the high point.

And to turn it on its head again....

The Cork, Tipperary and Waterford teams of the past decade are surely amongst the greatest teams that any of these counties have individually produced.....these are really great teams.....with some of the best hurlers the country has seen...The current Galway team is the best that country has had for 25 years....and these are the guys Kilkenny have being playing against in finals. Kilkenny have not been playing dud opponents, they have been playing and beating serious teams.

aidan24326

Tipperary Stonethrower wrote: »

Much truth to what you say though the Leinster championship has been fairly poor during that time. This probably partly accounted for KK success as they didn't have to peak until late July. Teams in Munster must peak for the last Sunday of May.

Don't agree with the peaking thing but you're right that they've had a pretty soft time of it in Leinster. Offaly and Wexford have gone seriously backwards. Offaly have a small pool to choose from and were probably punching above their weight anyway, but I do wonder how much Wexford hurling has been hurt by all those wallopings from Kilkenny over the past decade, year after year getting trounced out the gate.

What we've witnessed is a brilliant team who have raised the bar in terms of preparation, attitude, dedication and skill. We might not see a team as good again and I can't imagine we'll see a performance like they gave in the '08 final. It was pure hurling perfection. I felt sorry for Waterford but as a hurling fan you couldn't but sit back and admire their sheer brilliance.

purplepanda

Tipperary Stonethrower wrote: »

Much truth to what you say though the Leinster championship has been fairly poor during that time. This probably partly accounted for KK success as they didn't have to peak until late July. Teams in Munster must peak for the last Sunday of May.

Considering the severe beatings that the Cats handed out this season in the back door to Munster counties including the Champions, it's amazing that the old Munster Hurling is better than Leinster cliche still exists

KK would have done much the same every year if they had entered the Munster championship for the last decade :pac:

Kilkenny are the old enemy down where im from but i just dont accept this bulls*it notion that they are damaging the game. In fact i think they have been terrific for the game.

What has been damaging is the other counties failing to get their act together and getting up to All Ireland winning standard bar ourselves (2010) and Cork (99,04,05) during the last decade and a half. All well and good having incredible fitness, having big muscles and psychologists telling you you can do it or whatever preparation that goes with hurling but if you have a team that are not comfortable with the hurley and ball then you are toast.

Kilkenny get the important things right first. The hooking, the blocking, the catching, the positioning, the anticipation of where the ball will break and the striking. Fitness, psychology, hunger, attitude, nutrition while all are hugely important are secondary to the basic core of the game.

Tipperary dont field the ball on a consistent basis while Galway couldn't rise the ball on Sunday. You have alot of sloppiness in the game in terms of stray passes, non existant marking, silly fouling, bad puckouts, poor workrate etc etc but Kilkenny have the vast majority of these elements mastered to a fine art.

Thats the difference between Kilkenny and the rest and when a team does get these things right just as we did in 09 and 10 and Cork between 03-06, only then can you have hurling at its best between 2 great teams.

purplepanda

purplepanda wrote: »

Considering the severe beatings that the Cats handed out this season in the back door to Munster counties including the Champions, it's amazing that the old Munster Hurling is better than Leinster cliche still exists

KK would have done much the same every year if they had entered the Munster championship for the last decade :pac:

tbh i think the fairest way of putting it is

1. Kilkenny
2. Munster
3. Leinster

Though that said i think Galway would have also tonked ourselves this year. I just think Kilkenny and Galway and perhaps Dublin aside Leinster is pretty weak. It needs Wexford and Offaly to come back.

premierstone

purplepanda wrote: »

Considering the severe beatings that the Cats handed out this season in the back door to Munster counties including the Champions, it's amazing that the old Munster Hurling is better than Leinster cliche still exists

KK would have done much the same every year if they had entered the Munster championship for the last decade :pac:

How would the Munster champions end up in the back door?? Anyway apart from that freudian slip if you genuinely think that the Leinster championship has been better than the Munster championship over Cody's reign then you havent really seem much hurling tbh.

KK while yes they probably would have won the majority of Munster championships throught that period there is no way in hell they would have waltzed through it as they have in Leinster untill Galway layed down a meaningfull challenge infact since Cody took over KK, Offaly away back in 2000 are the only other Leinster team to reach an AI final. While all 5 teams in Munster have at least got to a final, having the best team overall does not equate to having the best championship

Hidalgo

purplepanda wrote: »

Considering the severe beatings that the Cats handed out this season in the back door to Munster counties including the Champions, it's amazing that the old Munster Hurling is better than Leinster cliche still exists

KK would have done much the same every year if they had entered the Munster championship for the last decade :pac:

The whole Munster hurling over Leinster for me boils down to the overall competitive nature of the provincial championships.

By and large, Leinster has been one sided over the years due to the dominance of KK.
Munster by and large has featured more close games. There hasn't been as much of a standout team dominating the rest which has resulted in a closer championship.

It has changed in the last few years with the rise of Dublin and the participation of Galway in Leinster

purplepanda

premierstone wrote: »

How would the Munster champions end up in the back door?? Anyway apart from that freudian slip if you genuinely think that the Leinster championship has been better than the Munster championship over Cody's reign then you havent really seem much hurling tbh.

KK while yes they probably would have won the majority of Munster championships throught that period there is no way in hell they would have waltzed through it as they have in Leinster untill Galway layed down a meaningfull challenge infact since Cody took over KK, Offaly away back in 2000 are the only other Leinster team to reach an AI final. While all 5 teams in Munster have at least got to a final, having the best team overall does not equate to having the best championship

Kilkenny did actually come through the back door / cat flap to win the All Ireland this season. In fact it's probably the hardest ever winning route to an AI Hurling title. That's how great they are. And they would have won almost as many All Irelands during their period of domination if they had started in Munster IMO

Last 15 years there's only been 5-6 competitive Leinster finals & it's got much worse since 5-6 years ago. I didn't actually say Leinster is stronger than Munster, I actually meant the gap is not as wide as some claim. The Cork side in the middle of the last decade & Tipp a few seasons back are the only sides who have been able to take on the Cats at all. Everyone else has been well beaten during the period.

Look at the championship records of the last 15 years for KK, defeats & "competitive" performances by the opposition (6 points victories). :rolleyes: Apart from the two winners mentioned above & an odd shock it's been a walkover for KK

I still don't even believe that adding Galway & Antrim has improved the standard of Leinster Hurling counties at all maybe not even Dublin. It's benefited Galway & probably, by default, even Kilkenny judging by this season.

As for Galway, if they had been in Munster for the last few seasons how would they have faired? And could they have even won a Munster?

premierstone

purplepanda wrote: »

Kilkenny did actually come through the back door / cat flap to win the All Ireland this season. In fact it's probably the hardest ever winning route to an AI Hurling title. That's how great they are. And they would have won almost as many All Irelands during their period of domination if they had started in Munster IMO

Last 15 years there's only been 5-6 competitive Leinster finals & it's got much worse since 5-6 years ago. I didn't actually say Leinster is stronger than Munster, I actually meant the gap is not as wide as some claim. The Cork side in the middle of the last decade & Tipp a few seasons back are the only sides who have been able to take on the Cats at all. Everyone else has been well beaten during the period.

Look at the championship records of the last 15 years for KK, defeats & "competitive" performances by the opposition (6 points victories). :rolleyes: Apart from the two winners mentioned above & an odd shock it's been a walkover for KK

I still don't even believe that adding Galway & Antrim has improved the standard of Leinster Hurling counties at all maybe not even Dublin. It's benefited Galway & probably, by default, even Kilkenny judging by this season.

As for Galway, if they had been in Munster for the last few seasons how would they have faired? And could they have even won a Munster?

The bolded bit was my favourite, are you still drunk after the celebrations???

They beat a Dublin team who were beyond woefull and will play in Division 2 next year, a young inexperienced Limerick team who with a bit more belief and know how could actually have won, the worst Tipperary performance in living memory and Galway on the third time of asking

Mountainlad

purplepanda wrote: »

Kilkenny did actually come through the back door / cat flap to win the All Ireland this season. In fact it's probably the hardest ever winning route to an AI Hurling title. That's how great they are. And they would have won almost as many All Irelands during their period of domination if they had started in Munster IMO

Last 15 years there's only been 5-6 competitive Leinster finals & it's got much worse since 5-6 years ago. I didn't actually say Leinster is stronger than Munster, I actually meant the gap is not as wide as some claim. The Cork side in the middle of the last decade & Tipp a few seasons back are the only sides who have been able to take on the Cats at all. Everyone else has been well beaten during the period.

Look at the championship records of the last 15 years for KK, defeats & "competitive" performances by the opposition (6 points victories). :rolleyes: Apart from the two winners mentioned above & an odd shock it's been a walkover for KK

I still don't even believe that adding Galway & Antrim has improved the standard of Leinster Hurling counties at all maybe not even Dublin. It's benefited Galway & probably, by default, even Kilkenny judging by this season.

As for Galway, if they had been in Munster for the last few seasons how would they have faired? And could they have even won a Munster?

It's nowhere near the hardest all-ireland won ever.

Kilkenny would not have won 13 of the last 15 munster championships or whatever absurd record they have in Leinster.

Also, maybe Galway would have won a munster, but didn't they win a Leinster this year?

Besides, up until this year they've been beaten by Munster teams every year since 2008.

Steven81

The thing with KK is they have so much talent that if you arent performing you are gone off the team or the squad, the players know this and even to be in the squad for some players would be sufficient as they know their time will come. Other counties dont have this and arent pushed to the limit.

Every player is eased into the team, a star from the u21 winning all ireland team will not walk on as is the case in other counties were he would already be a county player.

As for Cody the man is a legend, would love to be in the dressing room when things are not going well though to hear what he says. He is ruthless in what he does and the players know that too ( layed the marker down early with charlie Carter)

They have a great mix of youth and experience that is needed, they will be up at the top for years to come when many a team will come and go.

purplepanda

premierstone wrote: »

The bolded bit was my favourite, are you still drunk after the celebrations???

They beat a Dublin team who were beyond woefull and will play in Division 2 next year, a young inexperienced Limerick team who with a bit more belief and know how could actually have won, the worst Tipperary performance in living memory and Galway on the third time of asking

They actually beat the Leinster & Munster champions winning the AI after a replay, what team had a harder task than that before? Perhaps only Offaly in '98 would be comparable?

I would have have wanted Galway to win the final myself KK have won too much so supporting your province no longer applies!!!

One important question does come to mind, will Cody carry on for another season?

purplepanda

Mountainlad wrote: »

It's nowhere near the hardest all-ireland won ever.

Kilkenny would not have won 13 of the last 15 munster championships or whatever absurd record they have in Leinster.

So who would have stopped them? Cork 03-06 & maybe Tipp the last few years? They still would have won a substantial amount competing in Munster during that time period IMO.

Martin567

Like it or not (and I know Munster hurling fans won't like it), the single biggest reason that the Munster Hurling Championship has been far more competitive than the Leinster Hurling Championship for the past decade is very, very simple - Kilkenny were not in the Munster Championship. If Limerick & Clare had swapped with Offaly & Wexford for most of that period, would it have made any difference whatever to the relative competitiveness of either provincial championship? I certainly don't think so. I could include Tipperary in that as well from about 2003-2008 inclusive.

So many people continue to make the same mistake of confusing competitiveness and quality. When Kilkenny beat any team by 15-20 points, it is almost always put down to the deficiencies of the beaten team. It never seems to strike those putting forward this argument that no other team has been winning games by the same sort of margins. Instead you get revisionism. Tipperary are Munster champions and were favoured by many "experts" before the semi-final this year. Kilkenny win by 18 points and suddenly it was all due to how bad Tipperary were. Why didn't the great Munster Championship show up these problems? I have no doubt that when 2013 rolls around, this will all be forgotten and we will hear all over again about how competitive Munster is and how hard it is to win.

Finally, given that Kilkenny have won 9 of the last 13 All Irelands, it is hardly stretching a point to suggest that they would have won at least as many Munster Championships in the same period, if they were eligible, and probably even one or two more.

premierstone

Martin567 wrote: »

Like it or not (and I know Munster hurling fans won't like it), the single biggest reason that the Munster Hurling Championship has been far more competitive than the Leinster Hurling Championship for the past decade is very, very simple - Kilkenny were not in the Munster Championship. If Limerick & Clare had swapped with Offaly & Wexford for most of that period, would it have made any difference whatever to the relative competitiveness of either provincial championship? I certainly don't think so. I could include Tipperary in that as well from about 2003-2008 inclusive.

So many people continue to make the same mistake of confusing competitiveness and quality. When Kilkenny beat any team by 15-20 points, it is almost always put down to the deficiencies of the beaten team. It never seems to strike those putting forward this argument that no other team has been winning games by the same sort of margins. Instead you get revisionism. Tipperary are Munster champions and were favoured by many "experts" before the semi-final this year. Kilkenny win by 18 points and suddenly it was all due to how bad Tipperary were. Why didn't the great Munster Championship show up these problems? I have no doubt that when 2013 rolls around, this will all be forgotten and we will hear all over again about how competitive Munster is and how hard it is to win.

Finally, given that Kilkenny have won 9 of the last 13 All Irelands, it is hardly stretching a point to suggest that they would have won at least as many Munster Championships in the same period, if they were eligible, and probably even one or two more.

Why have you picked Clare and Limerick as the two from Munster surely over the last decade (your chosen reference span not mine) the top three in Munster would be Waterford, Cork and Tipp, so using two of those would surely be more valid and your answer changes aswell.

Do you honestly in your heart of hearts believe that KK are 18 points better than Tipp?? Or would you like most reasoned observers say that that result was a one off, that Tipp woefully underperformed due to a combination of terrible management and under-performing players, and of course KK were excellent in taking full advantage, if they played in the morning would you give me +17 on Tipp???

What you are right about is the current quality of the Munster Championship it is at its lowesrt ebb in quite some time and it imo allowed Tipp to think as back to back champions that they were better than they actually were. Eamon O'Shea will improve Tipp though, Limerick and Clare are quite obviously on an upward curve and JBM will get Cork going the right way. Whereas in Leinster I for one can't in the forseeable future see any hope for Offaly or Wexford ever getting back to being anyway competitive, mores the shame.

premierstone

purplepanda wrote: »

One important question does come to mind, will Cody carry on for another season?

Strong rumours from within KK that he may very well call it a day, Paddy Power stoped taking bets on it, not exactly proof but an indication nonetheless that it may be a possibility, personally I hope he stays tbh.

Tombo2001

premierstone wrote: »

Strong rumours from within KK that he may very well call it a day, Paddy Power stoped taking bets on it, not exactly proof but an indication nonetheless that it may be a possibility, personally I hope he stays tbh.

Walter Walsh mentioned that the manager asked him if he'd be around for Walsh Cup when he was coming off on all ireland day.......would suggest he will be around for it himself.

Martin567

premierstone wrote: »

Why have you picked Clare and Limerick as the two from Munster surely over the last decade (your chosen reference span not mine) the top three in Munster would be Waterford, Cork and Tipp, so using two of those would surely be more valid and your answer changes aswell.

Do you honestly in your heart of hearts believe that KK are 18 points better than Tipp?? Or would you like most reasoned observers say that that result was a one off, that Tipp woefully underperformed due to a combination of terrible management and under-performing players, and of course KK were excellent in taking full advantage, if they played in the morning would you give me +17 on Tipp???

What you are right about is the current quality of the Munster Championship it is at its lowesrt ebb in quite some time and it imo allowed Tipp to think as back to back champions that they were better than they actually were. Eamon O'Shea will improve Tipp though, Limerick and Clare are quite obviously on an upward curve and JBM will get Cork going the right way. Whereas in Leinster I for one can't in the forseeable future see any hope for Offaly or Wexford ever getting back to being anyway competitive, mores the shame.

I took the last decade or so as a time span because this is the period during which Kilkenny have been most dominant. For a few years in the 90s, Kilkenny were only the third best team in Leinster. Therefore I assume those critical of Leinster hurling are really thinking of more recent times. I did include Tipperary in my earlier post if you look again. Tipp were beaten by Wexford as recently as 2007, a year in which Kilkenny defeated Wexford twice by big margins. Some people have been drawing comparisons between Leinster & Munster for years and have always failed to point out that the vast majority of the uncompetitive games have involved Kilkenny. Several of Kilkenny's big wins have also come against Munster teams.

I don't believe that Kilkenny are 18 points a better team than Tipp but I certainly believe that if I gave you +8 or +9 on Tipp that Kilkenny would have at least a 50% chance of winning. Kilkenny would not have been in any way flattered with a 10 point win in the 2011 final. An average winning margin of 11 points over the last two years is a fair reflection of the current difference between the teams in my opinion.

The future looks a lot brighter at the moment for most of the Munster teams and perhaps Tipperary will get back to 2009/2010 form. No doubt Offaly & Wexford are really struggling but Dublin & Galway have made Leinster very competitive in the last few years. Hopefully Dublin can get over their blip in 2012. They've been in the last two minor finals so they are still producing hurlers.

My basic point is that I don't accept that the Munster Championship has been massively stronger than Leinster over the past decade. A bit stronger but nothing like what some try to make out. The semi-final gave an indication of where Tipp are in 2012 but they were still good enough to win in Munster. Did anyone comment at the time about the poor standard in Munster in 2012? On the contrary, I read several rapturous accounts of "classic games" and "typical Munster hurling".

premierstone

Martin567 wrote: »

I don't believe that Kilkenny are 18 points a better team than Tipp but I certainly believe that if I gave you +8 or +9 on Tipp that Kilkenny would have at least a 50% chance of winning. Kilkenny would not have been in any way flattered with a 10 point win in the 2011 final. An average winning margin of 11 points over the last two years is a fair reflection of the current difference between the teams in my opinion.

The future looks a lot brighter at the moment for most of the Munster teams and perhaps Tipperary will get back to 2009/2010 form. No doubt Offaly & Wexford are really struggling but Dublin & Galway have made Leinster very competitive in the last few years. Hopefully Dublin can get over their blip in 2012. They've been in the last two minor finals so they are still producing hurlers.

Bolded part quoted for next year, we will see if you are willing to put the money down

With regard to Dublin, I think they will inevitably suffer in the same way that Tipp will in the reverse, Tipp and Dublin have been very strong minor hurling and football the last few years, but both counties have had a large number of dual players, the reality is when push comes to shove the Dubs that are deemed good enough will choose football and the oposite of course will prevail in Tipp.

Martin567

premierstone wrote: »

Bolded part quoted for next year, we will see if you are willing to put the money down

With regard to Dublin, I think they will inevitably suffer in the same way that Tipp will in the reverse, Tipp and Dublin have been very strong minor hurling and football the last few years, but both counties have had a large number of dual players, the reality is when push comes to shove the Dubs that are deemed good enough will choose football and the oposite of course will prevail in Tipp.

Not at all. 2013 is another year. If Tipp can approach their 2009/2010 form, I would be very happy with a one point win. I do think your team needs a lot of surgery though. Those teams had Lar Corbett & Eoin Kelly near the peak of their form. I would be doubtful if they can ever recapture that form again. Other players like Shane McGrath & Brendan Maher also seem to have regressed since 2010.

premierstone

Martin567 wrote: »

Not at all. 2013 is another year. If Tipp can approach their 2009/2010 form, I would be very happy with a one point win. I do think your team needs a lot of surgery though. Those teams had Lar Corbett & Eoin Kelly near the peak of their form. I would be doubtful if they can ever recapture that form again. Other players like Shane McGrath & Brendan Maher also seem to have regressed since 2010.

Oh agreed there is alot of work to do, Wouldnt write Larry out of it, especially if the rumors circualting at the minute that Cian O'Neill is ready to rejoin the fray are true, Eoin unfortunately will not get back to he's 2009/'10 form and wll most likely beused as an impact sub if he does indeed decide to stay on.

Brendan Maher needs to revert to No. 5 imo it is he's best postion and its not as if we are blessed with options there, Shane McGrath seems to me anyway to have gotten far too comfortable and complacent possibly even cocky and hopefully Eamonn O'Shea will be able to refresh him and a few others with similar attitudes, Noel McGrath been another perfect example.

purplepanda

Perhaps Brian Cody's wife can persuade him to manage her home county? And transfer a few players over when they arrive?

Mountainlad

This thread isn't really about which province is better, but it's gone this way so I'm not complaining.

Most of the time I hear this discussion brought up it seems to be that it's Leinster (more specifically Kilkenny folk) who bring it up. And then complain about how everyone is going on about Munster hurling.

What is more interesting is that it always centres around Kilkenny. Bar one fleeting mention of 2007 when Wexford beat Tipp, there has been basically no mention of the other teams in Leinster to justify how they were as good as the top teams in Munster.

In my opinion, none of Dublin, Wexford or Offaly have produced a team this decade that was better than the best Waterford, Cork and Tipp teams, this decade. You can throw in Galway if you like, but as I already pointed out, Galway have been beaten on the four previous occasions before this year by Munster teams. That is why Munster hurling is better. Then you factor in the fact that you also have Laois, Westmeath, Carlow and Antrim and London now in the Leinster championship.

Once you take that into consideration, it defies belief that you could argue that the Leinster championship is better or even as good. It's really not.

As for the argument about competitiveness, well Ulster and Leinster (with Kilkenny and Antrim aside) are competitive at times but would that mean you would compare them to the teams in Munster.

From where I see it, Kilkenny people just seem to think that the fact that everyone points out the Leinster championship is poor leads them to take it personally as if it's a slight against them.

If you asked the people here arguing that Leinster is quite a good ways weaker than Munster are Kilkenny probably the best team of all time, I think we'd agree that they are.

Jimmy Iovine

Deleted User wrote: »

Kilkenny are the old enemy down where im from but i just dont accept this bulls*it notion that they are damaging the game. In fact i think they have been terrific for the game.

What has been damaging is the other counties failing to get their act together and getting up to All Ireland winning standard bar ourselves (2010) and Cork (99,04,05) during the last decade and a half. All well and good having incredible fitness, having big muscles and psychologists telling you you can do it or whatever preparation that goes with hurling but if you have a team that are not comfortable with the hurley and ball then you are toast.

Kilkenny get the important things right first. The hooking, the blocking, the catching, the positioning, the anticipation of where the ball will break and the striking. Fitness, psychology, hunger, attitude, nutrition while all are hugely important are secondary to the basic core of the game.

Tipperary dont field the ball on a consistent basis while Galway couldn't rise the ball on Sunday. You have alot of sloppiness in the game in terms of stray passes, non existant marking, silly fouling, bad puckouts, poor workrate etc etc but Kilkenny have the vast majority of these elements mastered to a fine art.

Thats the difference between Kilkenny and the rest and when a team does get these things right just as we did in 09 and 10 and Cork between 03-06, only then can you have hurling at its best between 2 great teams.

+100

It makes me laugh when I hear people saying that a certain team or another can match Kilkenny in the intensity stakes, as if that's the be all and end all.

If they can't match them in the skill stakes then they haven't a hope.

That's the most over-looked part of their game imo. They do the basics (and the less basic skills) better than every other team out there.

There were a couple of examples during the AI replay where Kilkenny forwards got close to their men and got a hook in.

The interception from Brian Hogan (I think) where he chased back and timed his flick to knock the sliotar off of the Galway forward's hurl was majestic. It's 5 times more skillful than someone scoring a point from 60/70 yards in my opinion. There's so much that you have to get right, and so much that could go wrong. If Hogan mistimed it then it was a possible point (maybe even a goal chance) for Galway.

Any kids watching it should be trying to develop those small parts of the game. The strength will take of itself later on in life. You need to get the basics in order first though, and the earlier the better.

Martin567

Martin567 wrote: »

Not at all. 2013 is another year. If Tipp can approach their 2009/2010 form, I would be very happy with a one point win. I do think your team needs a lot of surgery though. Those teams had Lar Corbett & Eoin Kelly near the peak of their form. I would be doubtful if they can ever recapture that form again. Other players like Shane McGrath & Brendan Maher also seem to have regressed since 2010.

In fairness i think the training regime for the players nearing the 30 was utterly ridiculous under the management just gone. Eoin Kelly, a player who just turned 30, was slogging away during January in meaningless games and going on 16km runs with the panel during the championship months whereas Larry Corbett while lacking the touches, actually looked remarkably fit for a man who only rejoined the panel in May. Brendan Maher is still young enough and Shane Mcgrath has a few years left yet.

Dont forget the likes of Brian Hogan and Tommy Walsh are around the same age but look at the level of freshness with them by comparison. Look at Tony Browne almost 40 years old.

I would see no reason why Kelly, Corbett et al could not make a huge impact for Tipperary next year. Additionally im looking forward to seeing how Pa Bourke and Buggy o'Meara who were excellent this year, can push on.

As for Brian Cody i hope he stays on a while more and make next year very interesting.
Ive no doubt he'll want to at least try and bow out on a decade of championship wins so will stay on for 2013.

Jimmy Iovine

Deleted User wrote: »

As for Brian Cody i hope he stays on a while more and make next year very interesting.
Ive no doubt he'll want to at least try and bow out on a decade of championship wins so will stay on for 2013.

He's only 58 and still working full-time as a principal.

He's still very young. Obviously he's not going to go on for another 5-10 years but I'd be confident of him staying around for at least one year.

I'd love if he took early retirement and focused entirely on the team. God knows how many he could win then. That's never going to happen though.

Cherish him while he's around. It's like Ferguson in the football. When he eventually steps down a major part of the recent history of the game will leave with him, and we won't see the likes of him or his success for another very, very long time.

The men in charge of finding his replacement will have a huge job on their hands. Hopefully Cody leaves on good terms with the country board and that he has a leading role in choosing the next manager.

Of course I'm hoping that they won't have to go looking for his replacement for another good few years. It will be a sad day when the inevitable happens, though.

bruschi

Mountainlad wrote: »

This thread isn't really about which province is better, but it's gone this way so I'm not complaining.

Most of the time I hear this discussion brought up it seems to be that it's Leinster (more specifically Kilkenny folk) who bring it up. And then complain about how everyone is going on about Munster hurling.

What is more interesting is that it always centres around Kilkenny. Bar one fleeting mention of 2007 when Wexford beat Tipp, there has been basically no mention of the other teams in Leinster to justify how they were as good as the top teams in Munster.

In my opinion, none of Dublin, Wexford or Offaly have produced a team this decade that was better than the best Waterford, Cork and Tipp teams, this decade. You can throw in Galway if you like, but as I already pointed out, Galway have been beaten on the four previous occasions before this year by Munster teams. That is why Munster hurling is better. Then you factor in the fact that you also have Laois, Westmeath, Carlow and Antrim and London now in the Leinster championship.

Once you take that into consideration, it defies belief that you could argue that the Leinster championship is better or even as good. It's really not.

As for the argument about competitiveness, well Ulster and Leinster (with Kilkenny and Antrim aside) are competitive at times but would that mean you would compare them to the teams in Munster.

From where I see it, Kilkenny people just seem to think that the fact that everyone points out the Leinster championship is poor leads them to take it personally as if it's a slight against them.

If you asked the people here arguing that Leinster is quite a good ways weaker than Munster are Kilkenny probably the best team of all time, I think we'd agree that they are.

not sure there is anyone arguing that the Leinster championship is better than Munster, but as has been said, Kilkenny are the best for the last decade, then Munster championship and then Leinster. If it makes you feel better that the Munster championship better, then fair enough, Kilkenny are still a mile ahead, so the point made that Munster is better than Leinster must come with an asterisk to exclude Kilkenny.

Just because a championship may seem to be more competitive, does not automatically mean its of the highest standard.

the starter of the munster debate was this quote:

Tipperary Stonethrower wrote: »

Much truth to what you say though the Leinster championship has been fairly poor during that time. This probably partly accounted for KK success as they didn't have to peak until late July. Teams in Munster must peak for the last Sunday of May.

which is rubbish, to be honest. Kilkenny have won 9 of the last 13 titles. Cork and Tipp with 2 each. Would them being in Munster have made any difference at all? I highly doubt it. Its not as if they have had any bother from any other team in Munster, and both Cork and Tipp fluctuated their form by huge margins in the last 10 years that they were not anywhere close to being as consistent as Kilkenny. Kilkenny waltzed through most of their Leinster championships, and they also hammered a number of Munster teams too when they played them. Yeah, the Munster championship may well be better, but who really cares if Kilkenny are still beating everything put in front of them.

sid waddell

The great thing about Kilkenny is their outstanding charisma and personality, which always comes across in interviews. They're all really engaging personalities who have captured the wider public's imagination and their media-friendly stance has done so much to promote the game of hurling to a non-traditional audience.

Not.

Martin567

sid waddell wrote: »

The great thing about Kilkenny is their outstanding charisma and personality, which always comes across in interviews. They're all really engaging personalities who have captured the wider public's imagination and their media-friendly stance has done so much to promote the game of hurling to a non-traditional audience.

Not.

What a load of complete and utter rubbish. Anyone who requires some sort of all-singing, all-dancing soap opera sideshow in order to be attracted to a particular sport is not or never will be a fan of that sport. As it happens, I'm from Kilkenny but I reject your argument above on a far more general level. I have heard this point made before about various teams and individuals across several different sports. It has never been less than tripe. If you can't appreciate the sheer skill and brilliance of these top performers, that is very much your problem.

Realt Dearg Sec

Martin567 wrote: »

What a load of complete and utter rubbish. Anyone who requires some sort of all-singing, all-dancing soap opera sideshow in order to be attracted to a particular sport is not or never will be a fan of that sport. As it happens, I'm from Kilkenny but I reject your argument above on a far more general level. I have heard this point made before about various teams and individuals across several different sports. It has never been less than tripe. If you can't appreciate the sheer skill and brilliance of these top performers, that is very much your problem.

I can't believe you'd lower yourself to responding to such an obvious wind-up. This kind of nonsense is entirely a consequence of the demise of AFR. The whole atmosphere of that place has bred a bunch of posters who think that that kind of wind up is the best way of having a discussion, and it's dragging things down around here too.

Regarding the Munster-Leinster debate: as a KK man I will freely admit that the Munster championship has been more competitive and, yeah, probably a bit better than Leinster over the last few years. The problem for KK fans has been that so many Munster people have used that fact as a stick to beat KK with, usually explicitly asserting that KK's success is explicable in terms of their position in the Leinster championship. Their results against Munster teams are just as impressive, but that can be ignored for some reason.

But I'll ask the people making this argument, such as Tipperary Stonethrower, why not just have an open draw? Cody is in favour of this. The main opposition to an open draw comes from Munster. And it is a completely anachronistic, imbalanced, silly system that completely disadvantages hurling as a sport in terms of its national profile. And it's all done to protect the Munster championship. Why it should be protected is, to be honest, completely beyond me. It has been utterly devalued in the last decade.

Mountainlad

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

I can't believe you'd lower yourself to responding to such an obvious wind-up. This kind of nonsense is entirely a consequence of the demise of AFR. The whole atmosphere of that place has bred a bunch of posters who think that that kind of wind up is the best way of having a discussion, and it's dragging things down around here too.

Regarding the Munster-Leinster debate: as a KK man I will freely admit that the Munster championship has been more competitive and, yeah, probably a bit better than Leinster over the last few years. The problem for KK fans has been that so many Munster people have used that fact as a stick to beat KK with, usually explicitly asserting that KK's success is explicable in terms of their position in the Leinster championship. Their results against Munster teams are just as impressive, but that can be ignored for some reason.

But I'll ask the people making this argument, such as Tipperary Stonethrower, why not just have an open draw? Cody is in favour of this. The main opposition to an open draw comes from Munster. And it is a completely anachronistic, imbalanced, silly system that completely disadvantages hurling as a sport in terms of its national profile. And it's all done to protect the Munster championship. Why it should be protected is, to be honest, completely beyond me. It has been utterly devalued in the last decade.

I think there is a buzz about the Munster championship that wouldn't be there if say Kilkenny drew Clare in an open championship format first round. And I'm still not sure that the open draw is the way to go either.

I might be wrong though, there was only 12000 at the Waterford v Clare game.

People talk about Munster being devalued but it still means an awful lot to me, especially when I think back to how I felt in 2002 and 2004, and in fairness given I was only a child that was nothing on what people who'd been there in the 80's and beyond felt those days.

Ask the people of Clare and Limerick what it would mean to win a Munster and I think you might change your mind. Leinster has been devalued by Galway and Antrim's inclusion, because while Galway were delighted to beat Kilkenny, deep down it was because there was a hint that an all-ireland may follow. They'll never feel like they really belong in Leinster.

It's different in Munster, and while the likes of Tipp, Waterford and Cork have shared all the Munster titles in 14 years, the dawn of new champions is coming fast.

Realt Dearg Sec

Mountainlad wrote: »

I think there is a buzz about the Munster championship that wouldn't be there if say Kilkenny drew Clare in an open championship format first round. And I'm still not sure that the open draw is the way to go either.

I might be wrong though, there was only 12000 at the Waterford v Clare game.

People talk about Munster being devalued but it still means an awful lot to me, especially when I think back to how I felt in 2002 and 2004, and in fairness given I was only a child that was nothing on what people who'd been there in the 80's and beyond felt those days.

Ask the people of Clare and Limerick what it would mean to win a Munster and I think you might change your mind. Leinster has been devalued by Galway and Antrim's inclusion, because while Galway were delighted to beat Kilkenny, deep down it was because there was a hint that an all-ireland may follow. They'll never feel like they really belong in Leinster.

It's different in Munster, and while the likes of Tipp, Waterford and Cork have shared all the Munster titles in 14 years, the dawn of new champions is coming fast.

If the Munster championship is still strong and meaningful, then it would survive as a stand alone competition. The dwindling attendances, even at finals, suggests otherwise.

My issue is that when there is a good Munster game, people will always come out and say, "people are looking to get rid of this, and they have their answer now". But the intensity comes from two closely matched teams with All Ireland ambitions going toe to toe, it has very little, really, to do with Munster as such. Limerick playing Clare in an open draw would still have all the intensity it does now. BUt you'd also see Wexford play Clare or Waterford more often. These teams nearly never play as things stand, and the current set up limits the number of potential match ups in a given year. Yet when Waterford played Wexford under Davy Fitz, and they won by a single point, there was no shortage of passion or intensity among the Waterford fans and players. Mullane and Davy rolling around celebrating told a story to me about the nature of inter-county hurling and its intensity that has nothing at all to do with the Munster championship.

I'm not, as it happens, disagreeing that Munster can be great, or that it is important to some counties participating in it. What I would argue, though, is that the good of the game as a whole is not served by maintaining the provincial system. The benefits of that system are relatively thin.

As it happens, and for the record, I'm in favour of a combined league-championship. Two groups of six. The winners of each group play in the league final. All teams end up in the knock-out phases, but the matches involving the bottom two from each group also double as relegation semi finals. The winners of the relegation semi finals are still in the hunt for the All Ireland, and the losers can have no excuses. The provincial championships could be played before this all gets going.

This system would make the league meaningful and higher profile. It would end the constant tinkering with the system to appease various vested interests like provincial councils or whatever county feels hard done by this year, whether that be in league or championship. It would provide a shorter, but more intense inter-county season that would be better structured and allow club championships to be organised more logically. Most of all, it's a fair, even system in which no team's success could be explained as a result of the imbalances of the current system. The provincial championships as a pre-championship set of competitions would mean more than the league currently does. Those are the benefits as I see it.

The costs? There is some potential for a few dead rubber games at the end, but since vying for a better position in the league so as to get a better knock out draw, that seems minimal and unlikely.
We also lose the Munster championship (at least as it currently stands). But like I say, I think there are enough pluses to outweigh that loss. It doesn't give us enough to warrant its maintenance, and it stands in the way of the sport growing, as I see it.

And more to the point: you can't complain about KK getting an easy draw but also insist that Munster has to be kept (not saying you did). That's having your cake and eating it.

Sorry about the long post. Anyway, Munster fans can rest assured, the structure of the GAA is so inimical to its own best interests, so utterly structured around catering to vested interests rather than the better running of its sports, that this change, or any other radical alteration of the status quo, will never happen. Ever.

Realt Dearg Sec

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

If the Munster championship is still strong and meaningful, then it would survive as a stand alone competition. The dwindling attendances, even at finals, suggests otherwise.

My issue is that when there is a good Munster game, people will always come out and say, "people are looking to get rid of this, and they have their answer now". But the intensity comes from two closely matched teams with All Ireland ambitions going toe to toe, it has very little, really, to do with Munster as such. Limerick playing Clare in an open draw would still have all the intensity it does now. BUt you'd also see Wexford play Clare or Waterford more often. These teams nearly never play as things stand, and the current set up limits the number of potential match ups in a given year. Yet when Waterford played Wexford under Davy Fitz, and they won by a single point, there was no shortage of passion or intensity among the Waterford fans and players. Mullane and Davy rolling around celebrating told a story to me about the nature of inter-county hurling and its intensity that has nothing at all to do with the Munster championship.

I'm not, as it happens, disagreeing that Munster can be great, or that it is important to some counties participating in it. What I would argue, though, is that the good of the game as a whole is not served by maintaining the provincial system. The benefits of that system are relatively thin.

As it happens, and for the record, I'm in favour of a combined league-championship. Two groups of six. The winners of each group play in the league final. All teams end up in the knock-out phases, but the matches involving the bottom two from each group also double as relegation semi finals. The winners of the relegation semi finals are still in the hunt for the All Ireland, and the losers can have no excuses. The provincial championships could be played before this all gets going.

This system would make the league meaningful and higher profile. It would end the constant tinkering with the system to appease various vested interests like provincial councils or whatever county feels hard done by this year, whether that be in league or championship. It would provide a shorter, but more intense inter-county season that would be better structured and allow club championships to be organised more logically. Most of all, it's a fair, even system in which no team's success could be explained as a result of the imbalances of the current system. The provincial championships as a pre-championship set of competitions would mean more than the league currently does. Those are the benefits as I see it.

The costs? There is some potential for a few dead rubber games at the end, but since vying for a better position in the league so as to get a better knock out draw, that seems minimal and unlikely.
We also lose the Munster championship (at least as it currently stands). But like I say, I think there are enough pluses to outweigh that loss. It doesn't give us enough to warrant its maintenance, and it stands in the way of the sport growing, as I see it.

And more to the point: you can't complain about KK getting an easy draw but also insist that Munster has to be kept (not saying you did). That's having your cake and eating it.

Sorry about the long post. Anyway, Munster fans can rest assured, the structure of the GAA is so inimical to its own best interests, so utterly structured around catering to vested interests rather than the better running of its sports, that this change, or any other radical alteration of the status quo, will never happen. Ever.

Firstly id like to just add that i love the Munster hurling days and that it should be kept in any case but thats just my opinion.

However the days of using it as a barometer for All ireland credentials are long gone. Im of the school of thought that he who laughs longest will laugh in September. As a Tipperary fan who seen our challenge shot down in a ball of flames this year i believe that this year can be considered a failure irregardless of winning Munster for the 2nd consecutive time and for the 4th time in 5 seasons.

Back in 2008 it was progress yes and it could become a situation similar to that again. Im sure if Clare and Limerick won Munster for the first time since the 90s next year that they would be thrilled and see it as a major stepping stone and from where they are now and they would have every right to. But Munster means little in the great scheme of things. Its a sign of progress but its a minor indicator of where a team is actually at.

Give me Tipp's back door all ireland in 2010 over our 4 Munster's any day of the week. Munster throws up some classic games and would continue to do so irregardless of whether it was separate from the championship or not. I do love Munster hurling days but teams are geared up to peak in September now so its outdated to assume that those who win it are the best prepped in Munster to win the All Ireland.

So overall i think it should be kept but ran independently to the championship. Leinster could also do the same should they wish to do so.

Mannix1888

It's well past the time that the provincial system was scrapped in hurling and replaced with a champions League type format with teams qualifying from groups to play in knockout rounds. The success of Galway in Leinster is indicative that the provincial championships are no longer relevant. The Munster title is great for teams who don't win it often but unless it's followed up with All-Ireland success, ask Waterford.

Back on topic, is there any sign that Cody will retire from the Kilkenny job at some stage?

randd1

Mannix1888 wrote: »

It's well past the time that the provincial system was scrapped in hurling and replaced with a champions League type format with teams qualifying from groups to play in knockout rounds. The success of Galway in Leinster is indicative that the provincial championships are no longer relevant. The Munster title is great for teams who don't win it often but unless it's followed up with All-Ireland success, ask Waterford.

Back on topic, is there any sign that Cody will retire from the Kilkenny job at some stage?

Would love to see a open draw/champions league type format for the championship. I think it would be a big benefit for the teams involved as well as it would give every side four games a year as well as provide a structure to the championship so the club scene can be built around it.

And if you wanted you could retain the traditional provincial system as a separate cup competition. This would add an extra national title to the scene as well.

The rumour down here is Cody is staying on, that he's looking to build a new squad.

randd1

randd1 wrote: »

Would love to see a open draw/champions league type format for the championship. I think it would be a big benefit for the teams involved as well as it would give every side four games a year as well as provide a structure to the championship so the club scene can be built around it.

And if you wanted you could retain the traditional provincial system as a separate cup competition. This would add an extra national title to the scene as well.

The rumour down here is Cody is staying on, that he's looking to build a new squad.

Please god he does. The game needs great innovators like himself at the helm

varberg

Hurling needs new champions soon. Kilkenny have ruined the game as there are only 4 or 5 strong teams out of 32 and to have one team dominate takes away all the excitement of intercounty hurling.
Look at the football with mayo and donegal, the colour and fun and compare it to the predictability and 4 to 11 odds on thing it was to have kilkenny win.

If cody really wanted to help improve hurling he would go manage laois or carlow and help improve the game in those counties. As it is most people have had enough of kilkenny and would love to see Clare or Dublin or Waterford win an all ireland.Nothing against kilkennny but it would be better for the game overall to see other counties win.
What good is it in an amateur game to have one team dominate like that and no hurling played in a lot of counties?

Variety is the spice of life and hurling needs some variety right now.