Grammar Question: Adjectives/Adverbs

Feathers

I'm trying to get my head around the use of 'go' in sentences — Would it be fair to say that when you see 'go' before an adjective it's being used as an adverb in that sentence, but if 'go' is omitted, it's being used as an adjective?

e.g.

— Tá an traein deárg (The train itself is red)
— Tá an traein go mall (The train is [going] slowly)

This is the way I was making sense of the grammar, though then I started to confuse myself withthe likes of déanach, as I think I've seen both forms of;

— Tá an traein déanach
— Tá an traein go déanach

I know the words aren't going to directly map to English, I'm just trying to understand the grammar of when I should/shouldn't use 'go' (in this sense of the word) in sentences.

Hope the above makes some sense!

Gumbi

Feathers wrote: »

I'm trying to get my head around the use of 'go' in sentences — Would it be fair to say that when you see 'go' before an adjective it's being used as an adverb in that sentence, but if 'go' is omitted, it's being used as an adjective?

e.g.

— Tá an traein deárg (The train itself is red)
— Tá an traein go mall (The train is [going] slowly)

This is the way I was making sense of the grammar, though then I started to confuse myself withthe likes of déanach, as I think I've seen both forms of;

— Tá an traein déanach
— Tá an traein go déanach

I know the words aren't going to directly map to English, I'm just trying to understand the grammar of when I should/shouldn't use 'go' (in this sense of the word) in sentences.

Hope the above makes some sense!

I am not at all the guy to explain formal grammar, but I can help correct the sentences.

Dearg is the correct spelling, at least it's standard.

Tá an traein go mall should be Tá an traein ag dul/ag bogadh for the train is going/moving slowly.

Tá an traein déanach is correct.

P. Breathnach

You can think of go as fulfilling the same purpose in Irish as -ly does in English - that is, making an adjective into an adverb. So, loosely speaking because words generally don't translate with 100% precision, mall is slow, and go mall is slowly.

Gumbi

P. Breathnach wrote: »

You can think of go as fulfilling the same purpose in Irish as -ly does in English - that is, making an adjective into an adverb. So, loosely speaking because words generally don't translate with 100% precision, mall is slow, and go mall is slowly.

A fair approximation, though not airtight. We do, for example, have "tá sí go hálainn" she is beautiful (I believe it's ok to leave out go up North, but that's beside the point).

P. Breathnach

Gumbi wrote: »

A fair approximation, though not airtight.

Just about nothing we can say about language is airtight. The problem is that everyday speakers don't think about grammar.

We do, for example, have "tá sí go hálainn" she is beautiful (I believe it's ok to leave out go up North, but that's beside the point).

Somebody with a better grasp of grammar than I have could probably explain why the adverbial form is more appropriate there.

P. Breathnach

P. Breathnach wrote: »

...Somebody with a better grasp of grammar than I have could probably explain why the adverbial form is more appropriate there.

I found somebody with a better grasp of grammar than I have (not too difficult).

If you want to say that she is beautiful, the best way to express it is Is cailín (nó bean) álainn í. I think we can agree on that.

The formulation Tá sí go hálainn has a slightly different meaning, essentially that she is beautiful at this time. It's along the lines of She is looking beautiful. It might be appropriate to expand the expression to Tá sí gléasta go hálainn or something like that.

Now it becomes arguable: the case can be made that go hálainn is an adverb qualifying the verb tá.

Feathers

Go raibh míle maith agaibh, go léir!

onemorechance

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I found somebody with a better grasp of grammar than I have (not too difficult).

If you want to say that she is beautiful, the best way to express it is Is cailín (nó bean) álainn í. I think we can agree on that.

The formulation Tá sí go hálainn has a slightly different meaning, essentially that she is beautiful at this time. It's along the lines of She is looking beautiful. It might be appropriate to expand the expression to Tá sí gléasta go hálainn or something like that.

Now it becomes arguable: the case can be made that go hálainn is an adverb qualifying the verb tá.

Is cailín (nó bean) álainn í -> She is a beautiful girl (woman).

Tá sí go hálainn -> She is beautiful.

Tá sí ag breathnú go hálainn -> She is looking beautiful.

P. Breathnach

onemorechance wrote: »

Is cailín (nó bean) álainn í -> She is a beautiful girl (woman).

Tá sí go hálainn -> She is beautiful.

Tá sí ag breathnú go hálainn -> She is looking beautiful.

I made a case for what I said. You make no case at all for saying, in effect, that I am wrong.

The copula is can be used to denote some sort of continuous or permanent identity. The verb tá is a present tense form, and does not connote a similar time-span as the copula: in effect, tá sí go hálainn means she is beautiful now. That's a construction that would not normally be used in English, and you can reasonably substitute she is looking beautiful.

onemorechance

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I made a case for what I said. You make no case at all for saying, in effect, that I am wrong.

The copula is can be used to denote some sort of continuous or permanent identity. The verb tá is a present tense form, and does not connote a similar time-span as the copula: in effect, tá sí go hálainn means she is beautiful now. That's a construction that would not normally be used in English, and you can reasonably substitute she is looking beautiful.

Tá sí go hálainn anois -> She is beautiful now

Is as Conamara mé agus is í an ghaeilge mo theanga dhúchasach; sin é mo chás.

Insect Overlord

Yeah, but being fluent in a language doesn't necessarily make someone an expert linguist. Just saying.

onemorechance

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Yeah, but being fluent in a language doesn't necessarily make someone an expert linguist. Just saying.

Íosa Críost! Thug mé aistriúchán ceart agus simplí. Tá brón orm ma tá tú fhéín agus P. Breathnach trína chéile faoi sin.

Gumbi

onemorechance wrote: »

Íosa Críost! Thug mé aistriúchán ceart agus simplí. Tá brón orm ma tá tú fhéín agus P. Breathnach trína chéile faoi sin.

Relax. That's wasn't the point being made.

Tá sí go hálainn means she is beautiful (at this moment in time) - in contrast with the more general "is bean álainn í". There are ways you could say tá sí go hálainn anois, sure, but in a slightly different context, but it's irrelevant to the point being made (emphasis on anois could be an implication that she won't be later, or whatever).

Ná lig dod fhearg tú a smachtadh, a chara. Nílimid go léir ach ag iarraidh lámh chúntach a thabhairt anso...

P. Breathnach

onemorechance, what we are doing here is examining how meaning is nuanced by the way in which things are expressed. To get at that, we have to look at grammar and syntax as well as customary usage.

It doesn't really help the exercise if a person makes assertions and backs them up by a claim to be an expert (which claim is unverifiable on an anonymous board). Explanation and discussion are helpful.

There is another thing to consider, which applies not only to Irish: what is accepted as adequate expression in spoken language is not always accepted as best practice in formal writing.

teileann

All this cailín álainn reminds me of
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5l82gO7tuw&playnext=1&list=PL35C82A2CA08E7F3F&feature=results_video