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**Spoilers** Series 7, Episode 5 - "The Angels Take Manhatten"

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,835 ✭✭✭✭cloud493


    Well his friends leaving is an ending. The doctor hates endings :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,357 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    gufnork wrote: »
    Penn wrote: »
    I was sure Amy's glasses would be significant. I had this weird theory before the show that Amy would somehow be turned into a Weeping Angel (somehow tie the story into what happened her at the crash of the Byzantium) and maybe kill Rory. Then when I saw Amy with the glasses, I was sure Amy would disappear during the episode and The Doctor would notice a Weeping Angel wearing glasses like hers or something.

    I mean, I liked what Moffat did, but I also think mine would have been pretty cool

    Actually that would have been freaking amazing. I would have loved that. I bet it didn't even occur to him. You should send him a link to your post just to really piss him off. I'm gonna go to sleep tonight and when I wake up yours is the one that Will have happened. Kudos to You!

    Haha thanks. I think Moffat already left Twitter so I'll leave him alone.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭Killer_banana


    pixelburp wrote: »
    That said, it's still a dreadfully bittersweet ending, given the Doc is left on his whatever happened to his friends just moving on with their lives - why must it be some form of crippling emotional drama now?

    Simply quoting because I agree so much.
    pixelburp wrote: »
    Onwards and forwards I guess: where to next? We have 8 more episodes (discounting the Xmas one) and I'm sceptical they will be the same standalone stories we saw in the 5 just gone; what do we suspect might be the arc? It has been bubbling in the background & Rivers conversation about the Doctor's apparent disappearance from existence must surely play into this. There's also the matter of Jenna Louise Colemans character & how it'll tie into the Asylum... episode. She'll be in the Xmas episode - but as what?
    I think it's going to have something to do with the Doctor having erased himself and how he shouldn't travel alone. Those two themese have been hinted at very heavily. They may be explored seperately but I quite like the idea of exploring the idea how do you stay hidden from history and not travel alone? If he leaves a string of companions in your wake all across time then how can he stay forgotten?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,952 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    I think it's going to have something to do with the Doctor having erased himself and how he shouldn't travel alone. Those two themese have been hinted at very heavily. They may be explored seperately but I quite like the idea of exploring the idea how do you stay hidden from history and not travel alone? If he leaves a string of companions in your wake all across time then how can he stay forgotten?

    Well someone in one of the other episode threads put forward the theory that the Doctors disappearance from history is actually all part of The Silences plan, that 'the question that must never be answered' (Dr. Who?) is not about the Doctors real name, but that he might once again be known to the universe and thus be a thorn in the Silences' ultimate plan.

    Oh and I think someone should say it: as emotional as all that was, there's always the chance of Rory & Amy coming back; if Rose could come back from being apparently trapped in another universe, then the Ponds can certainly pop-up if circumstances ever demanded it.


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 17,231 Mod ✭✭✭✭Das Kitty


    Still formulating my thoughts.

    Once I knew what the monsters were going to be this week, my first thought would be that they'd be sent back to the past and "live to death". It's a fitting ending for them both.

    I'd like to think that when 1969 came around that they'd find their daughter somehow, considering where they're living out their days. Maybe that's why River was eager that Amy touch the angel, because she knew all along?

    I agree with pixelburp that the Statue of Liberty bit seemed so unnecessary to the episode. However, here's a thought that might give it payoff. The image of an angel becomes itself an angel, right? How many of us have postcards, fridge magnets, statuettes of lady liberty in our homes? oooowwoowoo!

    :D

    BTW, I don't know how anyone can like how it ended for Donna. Seriously, she could have at least been given the choice to forget or die, but he basically raped her of her memories. She was screaming no as he was doing it. It gave me the heebeejeebies. That's not even mentioning the fact that her last episode was completely taken over by Rose coming back (for no apparent reason).


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  • Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 21,502 Mod ✭✭✭✭Agent Smith


    I swear its United losing today that has me upset... I swear.



    Kinda want to The Eleventh Hour now...


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,685 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    Hmmmm


    what is it about doctor who and new york that it ends up neutering interesting villains.

    I didnt like the angel storyline at all, felt very weak, the liberty angel and the baby statues lacked menace, the battery farm while interesting as a premise never really got fleshed out, reminded me a bit of the episode where they are stuck in a hotel from the previous season.


    Also there are little things that have been dropped that disapoint me, the weeping angels no longer really cover their eyes and far too often show the scary side, also there are a few points where the angels would be looking at each other. Also the babies giggling and making sounds in the dark also kills some of the original menace of the angels as I recall that originally in blink they dont actually *move* in our dimension. So the silent moving of the angels was a lot more menacing.

    I'd hope for something clever to explain the liberty angel (as someone is *always* watching the statue of liberty,)


    But we are here for the ponds departure really, and that's fine I guess, not a major tear jerker, I thought the earlier scene with river's wrist was more interesting as an insight into the doctor then anything.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,760 ✭✭✭Jessibelle


    Das Kitty wrote: »
    ?

    However, here's a thought that might give it payoff. The image of an angel becomes itself an angel, right? .

    only when it suits the plot it would seem, else the very prominent picture of lady liberty in the lift in the Winter Quay would have finished off everyone, since they all travelled up with their backs to it...:rolleyes:


  • Moderators, Music Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 6,068 Mod ✭✭✭✭LoonyLovegood


    I enjoyed it an awful lot. I'm just finished, and both the brother and I were creeped out by it. The intro wasn't great, but the ending was fantastic, I was sitting down just sobbing at Amy. I'm glad they got some part of a happy ending, out of all the companions in the new series thus far they deserved it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭Agent J


    The only world i could speak for a while after it was "Aw..."

    *Sniff*

    I didn't tear up... i have a cold. I swear.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 546 ✭✭✭gufnork


    Fancy reading Melody Malone's novel just like in the episode? Well, on 4th October you'll be able to since it's being released as an ebook. Seems it'll be the first of many written from the viewpoint of a character. I'm loving this. Here's the link,

    http://www.doctorwhonews.net/2012/09/melody-malone-270912171508.html?m=1

    I'll be the one at the front of the virtual queue.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭norrie rugger


    Manach wrote: »
    A fine farewell to an excellent Dr.'s companion. So the future Ponds which were present in "The Hungry Earth" are not viable now or was that issue re-booted previously in the "Big Bang" episode?

    The Ponds had plenty of time, during the years in between Doctor visits, to make that trip.

    The afterword that Amy wrote, basically telling the Doctor that he had to visit Amelia and tell the little Amelia the story of Amy Williams. Does that mean that Amy knew what was going to happen all along?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭norrie rugger


    pixelburp wrote: »
    . There's also the matter of Jenna Louise Colemans character & how it'll tie into the Asylum... episode. She'll be in the Xmas episode - but as what?

    Remember that Gwen Cooper (Torchwood) had a great great aunt, in the Dickens episode.
    They could bring her in as a historical relative


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭norrie rugger


    Jessibelle wrote: »
    only when it suits the plot it would seem, else the very prominent picture of lady liberty in the lift in the Winter Quay would have finished off everyone, since they all travelled up with their backs to it...:rolleyes:

    Nope, they needed to "See" themselves aged, for the farm to work.
    The angels had to fix the timeline to make sure that the people kept coming back and could not change things


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,760 ✭✭✭Jessibelle


    Nope, they needed to "See" themselves aged, for the farm to work.
    The angels had to fix the timeline to make sure that the people kept coming back and could not change things

    Ah well, that bit totally escaped me :o thanks :D


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,952 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Remember that Gwen Cooper (Torchwood) had a great great aunt, in the Dickens episode.
    They could bring her in as a historical relative

    Was she? I don't remember either show directly mentioning they were related; in any case, this is different as the actor is appearing twice in quick succession in the same season, of the same show - I'd be very surprised if the connection is simply token. It wouldn't seem very Moffat'y :)
    Manach wrote: »
    A fine farewell to an excellent Dr.'s companion. So the future Ponds which were present in "The Hungry Earth" are not viable now or was that issue re-booted previously in the "Big Bang" episode?

    No, it still could have happened: from the approximate end of Series 6 to last night's episode, the Ponds have only intermittently travelled with the Doctor and I think years had passed between the end of #6 and the start of #7 (wasn't '10 years' mentioned at some point?) - certainly long enough for Amy to start an apparently successful modelling career.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 24,924 Mod ✭✭✭✭BuffyBot


    Was she? I don't remember either show directly mentioning they were related

    Yeah, it was directly referenced in DW. Tenth Doctor speaks to Gwen and Ianto who are in the Torchwood hub on the monitor during The Stolen Earth/Journey's End. When he clocks the similarity, he asks Gwen about her ancestry.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,037 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    I did like the episode but I can't help but feel that Doctor Who is becoming too depressing in how it deals with the leaving of companions. People may say that at least the ponds have each other but you know to their parents and friends they've just disappeared with no explanation. I'm not sure i can now classify DW as a light-hearted show i watch.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,778 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    After all the buildup i was pretty dissapointed, yes we lost Amy and Rory and they ended up together but still i think moffats writing leaves alot to be desired, the end of the last season and this episode are probably the low points imo of moffatts episodes


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,173 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Loved the ending... but: how come the old Rory hadn't seen Amy in so long if she always went back and joined him there and the gravestone indicated that she died 5 years after him.

    Did the paradox destroy that time-line, creating a new one where Rory and Amy go back in time to the same graveyard they were transported from (or another no-longer angel infested location?).


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    I think they destroyed the angel infested timeline and the reason the doc still wouldn't go back was because the paradox had torn holes in the whole thing so it would still be dangerous
    I mean they wouldn't have written a book afterword about being happy together and had a gravestone otherwise


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 17,231 Mod ✭✭✭✭Das Kitty


    Sleepy wrote: »
    Loved the ending... but: how come the old Rory hadn't seen Amy in so long if she always went back and joined him there and the gravestone indicated that she died 5 years after him.

    Did the paradox destroy that time-line, creating a new one where Rory and Amy go back in time to the same graveyard they were transported from (or another no-longer angel infested location?).

    Yeah. I think that last angel was meant to be a single survivor or a scavenger. So not zapped into that building. The first time line was destroyed.

    I liked it more on repeat viewing, but the plot holes are gaping. :) He couldn't go back to late 30s New York, so wait a few years? Or meet them somewhere outside of New York? Get a train in?

    That aside, I liked that he was able to be a little bit selfish and pretty much begged Amy to choose him. After all the effort he put in to making sure she'd always choose Rory, he finally felt like he was worth enough to deserve her staying with him.

    The ending was also not as sad for the Doctor as I had initially thought. In Let's Kill Hitler the Tardis showed him the one person in the universe who's life he hadn't messed up -- little Amelia. And not only was he told that he hadn't messed her up, that he had bettered her life unimaginablly, he got to go back and promise her that he would and know it was the truth.

    It's the first companion departure since 2005 where we see the Doctor visably physically happy in the last shot. Spinning around the console, knowing that he doesn't ruin the lives of all those he touches.


  • Registered Users Posts: 473 ✭✭ríomhaire


    Great! Must watch again on my own next weekend because I was forced to watch with my sister and mother who kept bloody talking!

    Great series/half series. The only low point was the terrible plot of Power of Three. Christmas is too far away now!


  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 25,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭Doctor DooM


    Das Kitty wrote: »
    Yeah. I think that last angel was meant to be a single survivor or a scavenger. So not zapped into that building. The first time line was destroyed.

    I liked it more on repeat viewing, but the plot holes are gaping. :) He couldn't go back to late 30s New York, so wait a few years? Or meet them somewhere outside of New York? Get a train in?

    That aside, I liked that he was able to be a little bit selfish and pretty much begged Amy to choose him. After all the effort he put in to making sure she'd always choose Rory, he finally felt like he was worth enough to deserve her staying with him.

    The ending was also not as sad for the Doctor as I had initially thought. In Let's Kill Hitler the Tardis showed him the one person in the universe who's life he hadn't messed up -- little Amelia. And not only was he told that he hadn't messed her up, that he had bettered her life unimaginablly, he got to go back and promise her that he would and know it was the truth.

    It's the first companion departure since 2005 where we see the Doctor visably physically happy in the last shot. Spinning around the console, knowing that he doesn't ruin the lives of all those he touches.

    That's a rather nice way of looking at it :)

    I watched it again and the plotholes are humoungous indeed- if they're not stuck in 30's New York, why didn't River tell the Doctor where to find them, how can she see them and not him, why won't the vortex manipulator not work- but I think the ending itself is perfect. The married couple companions get a life together and happy. Aw.

    The "Rory is the Master" part of me wonders if this isn't the actual last we'll see of them. The whole point of the episode is that time can't be rewritten if you're faced with proof from the future (which AFAIK contradicts a lot of what we've been taught, save for the "fixed points in time"). Yet, after all the kerfuffle, the Doctor didn't break River's wrist- she did, proving time can in fact be changed... Moffat is supposed to do these things, so...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,835 ✭✭✭✭cloud493


    It won't be the last time for the Ponds :rolleyes: when Donna left it was like 'if she ever remembers me, her mind will burn and she will die' and she came back for the end of the time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,037 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    Das Kitty wrote: »
    Yeah. I think that last angel was meant to be a single survivor or a scavenger. So not zapped into that building. The first time line was destroyed.

    I liked it more on repeat viewing, but the plot holes are gaping. :) He couldn't go back to late 30s New York, so wait a few years? Or meet them somewhere outside of New York? Get a train in?

    That aside, I liked that he was able to be a little bit selfish and pretty much begged Amy to choose him. After all the effort he put in to making sure she'd always choose Rory, he finally felt like he was worth enough to deserve her staying with him.

    The ending was also not as sad for the Doctor as I had initially thought. In Let's Kill Hitler the Tardis showed him the one person in the universe who's life he hadn't messed up -- little Amelia. And not only was he told that he hadn't messed her up, that he had bettered her life unimaginablly, he got to go back and promise her that he would and know it was the truth.

    It's the first companion departure since 2005 where we see the Doctor visably physically happy in the last shot. Spinning around the console, knowing that he doesn't ruin the lives of all those he touches.


    I think you could make an argument that he has really messed up the lives of the ponds as they have been banished to a different time period, can't ever see their friends and family again, lost their child, and can't have any more children. Perhaps they should have shown Rory's father being given the news, to show how messed up the situation was at the end.

    So the doctor/or River can't go back to any period or place where the ponds would be in the past? That's a large piece of history.


  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 25,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭Doctor DooM


    I think you could make an argument that he has really messed up the lives of the ponds as they have been banished to a different time period, can't ever see their friends and family again, lost their child, and can't have any more children. Perhaps they should have shown Rory's father being given the news, to show how messed up the situation was at the end.

    So the doctor/or River can't go back to any period or place where the ponds would be in the past? That's a large piece of history.

    Nope, River meets them again, to get her book printed.

    As far as I can tell, the Doctor just can't travel to that time again (which begs the question how River can).


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,173 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Somehow, I doubt we've seen the last of Brian Williams yet tbh.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    Nope, River meets them again, to get her book printed.

    As far as I can tell, the Doctor just can't travel to that time again (which begs the question how River can).

    SHe said at the start her little vortex yoke was like a bike in traffic so she could slip through... doc couldnt


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  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 25,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭Doctor DooM


    bluewolf wrote: »
    SHe said at the start her little vortex yoke was like a bike in traffic so she could slip through... doc couldnt

    That's a vortex manipulator. He's used them before, when he pinched one off Jack Harkness. Sadly it's a pretty big hole why he doesn't just use it now.


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