Revising marathon goal

Micilin Muc

How close to the marathon can I revise my goal pace? I've been training for 3:30 until last week, now I'm looking at 3:15. I have 5 weeks left until DCM.

Have been following P&D 55-70 and my recent race times indicate I can go a good bit faster than 3:30. McMillan predicts 3:13:54 from my 5km time (19:54), and 3:19:47 from my Half Marathon time (1:34:56 - could have gone a minute or two faster).

Also, this is the third marathon I have trained for (4:42 in DCM '11 and 3:56 in Connemarathon '12).

Does the McMillan + 10% guideline apply in my case?!

menoscemo

Micilin Muc wrote: »

Does the McMillan + 10% guideline apply in my case?!

I always thought it was 2 x Half Mara time +10%?

Either way they are just generic rules for low mileage and inexperienced runners attempting a Marathon (generally for the first time). You have been doing quite high Mileage all year and have a few years base behind you so you can beat those 'rules'.

If I followed those rules My Marathon PB would be at least 10 minutes slower than it actually is. I'd say you are good for sub 3:20 anyway...

opus

Personally revised my target by 10mins last year based on a 10m race three weeks before a marathon & I made it (just!) so I echo the above post & would say give it a lash

village runner

Why not run with the 3.30 pacers and if your as strong as you think you are you will run 3.25 risk free. You say you could run a min or two faster. Bottom line is why didn't you ?? Targeting a 3.15 is mental. 1.44 and 1.41

Oisin11178

village runner wrote: »

Why not run with the 3.30 pacers and if your as strong as you think you are you will run 3.25 risk free. You say you could run a min or two faster. Bottom line is why didn't you ?? Targeting a 3.15 is mental. 1.44 and 1.41

Yeah I agree with 100%. If you target 3.15 at this state when you have not trained for it you would more than likely find it very hard. Go out with the 3.30 guys and increase your pace after half way if your feeling good. I wad in the exact same position you were in now once and did exactly that and got 3.24. Next time out 3.13 with some better training. Good luck anyway.

Micilin Muc

village runner wrote: »

You say you could run a min or two faster. Bottom line is why didn't you ??

Good question!

I hadn't raced a flat Half Marathon in over a year so I was going into the race without a clear indication if 1:35 was achievable or not, and believed I was pushing it. I ran a negative split, with more hills in the second half, so it only was during the first half that I could have run quicker if I had wanted to.

I have had the feeling over the past few weeks that I hadn't been pushing myself in training so maybe that's why I think I have a faster time in me.

Anyway, I'm running 18 miles with 14 PMP on Saturday so that should give me a good idea of the pace. I might do another PMP the following week if I'm up for it and make a decision closer to the day on the goal pace.

Micilin Muc

4 very good, experienced runners here giving different advice!

menoscemo

Micilin Muc wrote: »

4 very good, experienced runners here giving different advice!

Haha for waht it's worth I also think 3:15 is a recipe for disaster, but knowing you a little more than the other guys I think you are in shape for 3:20. But then again you are risking a blow-up.
The advice to go out at 3:30 pace and speed up into a 3:25/3:24 Marathon is also good advice. There isn't really much difference between 3:20 and 3:25 and either way it would be a great improvement on 3:56

RayCun

You could just ignore the pacers. Go out around 3.25 pace, pick it up a little (10 seconds/mile) at halfway if you feel comfortable, speed up some more from Fosters Avenue if you can.

average_runner

RayCun wrote: »

You could just ignore the pacers. Go out around 3.25 pace, pick it up a little (10 seconds/mile) at halfway if you feel comfortable, speed up some more from Fosters Avenue if you can.

You make it sound so easy!!

ThePiedPiper

I think a bit too often on Boards, there is a tendancy to target just the 3:00, 3:15, 3:30, etc times as these are the ones with pace groups. You think you're in 3:15-3:20 pace, then go out at 3:20 pace. There'll be loads of company for you the whole way around, plenty of little groups. If you're feeling strong, increase your pace a little and you'll find another little group.
However, I'd advise against all out going for 3:15 from the start. McMillan marathon times are just about reachable if everything goes perfectly and you've properly trained for the time. Also, experience would be key. If it's your first marathon, and you're adjusting your time goal to suit McMillan 4 weeks out, it could make for a painful and demoralising last 6 miles.

theboyblunder

Micilin Muc wrote: »

4 very good, experienced runners here giving different advice!

The last 6 miles of a marathon where you are trying for a PB and have over-reached pace-wise bring an exquisite level of pain.

Much better to start comfortably and finish strongly IMO. 15 mins is a lot to lop off your goal time - basically planning to beat yourself by about 2 miles.

If you finish strongly with a good PB you'll be chomping at the bit to go again, if you limp home its a different story.

rom

I am in a similar position to the OP.
68 mins Frank Duffy which felt comfortable
92 mins 1/2 last weekend (was sick and very run down doing it)
22M with 4/3/2/1 at MP @ 7:30 in 2:55 3 weeks ago. Felt very strong at the end.
Having run 4:27 last year in DCM I am somewhere between 3:10 and 3:30 but where ?
I feel 7:30 pace is about right but 7:15 is just a tad too fast. Feedback appreciated.
Was talking to a 2:2x guy and he said that your last 23M should be your race goal time.

menoscemo

rom wrote: »

I feel 7:30 pace is about right but 7:15 is just a tad too fast. Feedback appreciated.

Not wanting to state the obvious but sounds like 7:30 pace would be about right in that case. MP has to feel like MP effort, the problem is without racing a few marathons it is hard to guage what that would be. But it certainly should never feel like (in training) like you are really pushing it.

belcarra

MM - How about starting 5mins behind the 3:30 pacers and aim to catch them by 9 or 10 miles into the marathon. This would mean you would be on for 3:15 pace at that stage.
However, if it felt a little too fast you could remain with the 3:30 group but you'd still be home in 3:25 (chip time).
If instead you felt the 3:30 pace was a little easy you could push on again towards the end to take more time off the 3:25 and finish in late 3:1x's.

That's just another option but overall I'd say simply run your own race and aim for 3:20 or so and forget the pacers. Reassess the situation then with 6 miles to go if you can push it any harder.

ThePiedPiper

rom wrote: »

Was talking to a 2:2x guy and he said that your last 23M should be your race goal time.

That would be a close approximation alright. The only danger in that is that you overcook the 23 mile run in order to convince yourself that you're fit for that marathon time. The 23 miler should be slow and steady, with very little focus on a fast finish. But, looking at the races where I've incorporated a 23 mile run, the marathon has turned out between 3-7 minutes slower.

Very hard to judge, but based on a 92 minute half, where you were feeling dodgy, I think 3:30 is too soft of a target. A minute a mile slower between half and full marathon is way too conservative in my opinion. 15 seconds is a push. Around about 30 seconds a mile slower should be comfortable.

Again, why not try for sub 3:20? When I first tried to go sub 3:30, I ran 3:23, when I went for sub 3:20, I ran 3:16.

ThePiedPiper

belcarra wrote: »

MM - How about starting 5mins behind the 3:30 pacers and aim to catch them by 9 or 10 miles into the marathon. .

Belcarra, do you not think it would be a royal pain in the ass having to spend the first few miles weaving a way around much, much slower runners? I'm not sure it'd be the optimum strategy for running a good time.

menoscemo

belcarra wrote: »

MM - How about starting 5mins behind the 3:30 pacers and aim to catch them by 9 or 10 miles into the marathon. This would mean you would be on for 3:15 pace at that stage.
However, if it felt a little too fast you could remain with the 3:30 group but you'd still be home in 3:25 (chip time).

Not a good Plan becuase if the pace is a little too hard by 9-10 miles he will have already blown the race and will pay for it later. he likely won't even make 3:30 if this is the case.

I see these questions all the time and I just don't understand the need to run with pacers. If your target time is what the pacers are running: perfect. If not, run your own race.

Van.Bosch

menoscemo wrote: »

Not a good Plan becuase if the pace is a little too hard by 9-10 miles he will have already blown the race and will pay for it later. he likely won't even make 3:30 if this is the case.

I see these questions all the time and I just don't understand the need to run with pacers. If your target time is what the pacers are running: perfect. If not, run your own race.

This is the key point for me, I am hoping for 3:53 to 3:55 but would be delighted to be sub 4. I could go with the 4 hour guys and then push on if possible or else start with the 4 hour guys, run my own pace targetting 3:55 and drop back to the 4 hour guys if needed. I don’t think I should plan to drop back as it’s not psychologically good but at the same time im not going to run at a slower pace just because the pacers are there. I have a garmin so will pace myself off that.

I should add I have meesed up two marathons so far so no-one should take my advice!

ThePiedPiper

I better put my disclaimer in here too I suppose. I've messed up at least 4 of my 13 marathons too. I like to think of myself as an expert in how to make a balls of a marathon!

belcarra

RunForestRun wrote: »

Belcarra, do you not think it would be a royal pain in the ass having to spend the first few miles weaving a way around much, much slower runners? I'm not sure it'd be the optimum strategy for running a good time.

I could be wrong but I don't think there would be too much disparity within 5mins of starting simply cos it takes so long (walking) to get over the start line. The main jist of what I'm getting at is that you could see the pacers a few mins up the road and have them as a target.
Plus, the worst congestion (After the first couple of miles) will be with the immediate pace group itself. For bigger races I find running in these groups sometimes dangerous and off-putting. I prefer to run either just ahead or else 20+ metres behind.

As I said already though, this is just another option to think about but ultimately I'd recommend MM running his own race, independent of pacers.
I'm hoping to do a similar time (Perhaps 5mins slower) in Valencia so that's what I'll be doing anyways.

*Disclaimer: I have also messed up more marathons than I'd like to say out loud myself:( but I ran with MM a few weeks back and he seems in good shape for 3:20-ish time from what I could see.

nerraw1111

RunForestRun wrote: »

I better put my disclaimer in here too I suppose. I've messed up at least 4 of my 13 marathons too. I like to think of myself as an expert in how to make a balls of a marathon!

Any chance of saying how you messed up your marathons for the benefit of the board?

Seems to be a v thin line between messing up and running to your PB. 1001 ways to mess up a marathon, be great to narrow it down to 997!

ThePiedPiper

I messed up Paris 2008 very slightly by:
1. Over-hydrating pre-race and in-race, resulting in having toilet stop (30 seconds lost).
2. Running 5-10 seconds a mile too fast.
3. Not using gels.
I finished in 3:00:21.

I messed up Berlin 2008 badly by:
1. Under-hydrating so I wouldn't have to toilet stop.
2. Travelling to Berlin the day before the race, way too busy and not relaxed or eating/drinking properly
3. Going for a sub 2:55 NYC qualifier instead of running safely for a sub-3 when I was in super shape.
4. Not using gels.
I was walking at 18 miles and finished in 3:05.

I messed up Amsterdam 2010 by:
1. Not starting proper marathon training in time. 12-16 weeks isn't enough.
2. Not using gels.
I finished in 3:05, the wheels only coming off in the last 3 miles.

I messed up DCM 2011 by:
1. Going too fast in the first 2 miles (6:28 and 6:29).
2. Being too stubborn to adjust my target to suit the warm, muggy conditions.
3. Going for a target that was at the very limit of my capabilities.
4. Thinking that I was the dogs b0!!0cks and would still run sub-3 even if the original target was too agressive.
I threw in the towel after the sub-3 pacers passed at 20 miles and finished in 3:07.

I messed up Boston 2009 by:
1. Being a complete lunatic and running the first half in 1:32 having not ran for 6 weeks prior to the race with shin splints. Very clever.
2. No gels
3. Nothing right with preparation.
I finished in 3:34

average_runner

Why not start with the 3:30 pacers and if you feel good after the first 3 miles push on gradually. If not well then you have the pacers to push you along.

My plan for Dublin is to start with 3:45 and then see how i feel on the day. But then again i have a confidence issue after flopping
disasterously last year in Dublin.

average_runner

RunForestRun wrote: »

I messed up Paris 2008 very slightly by:
1. Over-hydrating pre-race and in-race, resulting in having toilet stop (30 seconds lost).
2. Running 5-10 seconds a mile too fast.
3. Not using gels.
I finished in 3:00:21.

I messed up Berlin 2008 badly by:
1. Under-hydrating so I wouldn't have to toilet stop.
2. Travelling to Berlin the day before the race, way too busy and not relaxed or eating/drinking properly
3. Going for a sub 2:55 NYC qualifier instead of running safely for a sub-3 when I was in super shape.
4. Not using gels.
I was walking at 18 miles and finished in 3:05.

I messed up Amsterdam 2010 by:
1. Not starting proper marathon training in time. 12-16 weeks isn't enough.
2. Not using gels.
I finished in 3:05, the wheels only coming off in the last 3 miles.

I messed up DCM 2011 by:
1. Going too fast in the first 2 miles (6:28 and 6:29).
2. Being too stubborn to adjust my target to suit the warm, muggy conditions.
3. Going for a target that was at the very limit of my capabilities.
4. Thinking that I was the dogs b0!!0cks and would still run sub-3 even if the original target was too agressive.
I threw in the towel after the sub-3 pacers passed at 20 miles and finished in 3:07.

I messed up Boston 2009 by:
1. Being a complete lunatic and running the first half in 1:32 having not ran for 6 weeks prior to the race with shin splints. Very clever.
2. No gels
3. Nothing right with preparation.
I finished in 3:34

If i could just mess up like that and get that kinda time:D Nice to dream!

tHE vAGGABOND

Great Thread!

Alas Im going the other direction, injured at peak training weeks, and therefore Im revising my goal for Berlin downwards, and no longer going for 3.30, but going to go a few seconds a KM slower than that.

Somewhat ironic that MM and myself have done a good few runs over the year, always going the same pace - and now I would not be able to keep up with him if I was on my bike :eek:

But good to see hardwork getting its due rewards

average_runner

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

Great Thread!

Alas Im going the other direction, injured at peak training weeks, and therefore Im revising my goal for Berlin downwards, and no longer going for 3.30, but going to go a few seconds a KM slower than that.

Somewhat ironic that MM and myself have done a good few runs over the year, always going the same pace - and now I would not be able to keep up with him if I was on my bike :eek:

But good to see hardwork getting its due rewards

You will have plenty of chances at 3:30. Not the end of the world!

KielyUnusual

One thing that I don't think has been mentioned is the whole mental side of things. This can be huge in a marathon. If you're going in to a marathon with a goal that you think is a bit of stretch, when the going gets tough, you're not going to dig in and push through it.

I've only ran two marathons so I don't have as much experience as some posters on here. In my first marathon, I had ran a 1.36 half marathon and was confident of sticking with the 3.30 pacers. It was a massive struggle for the first half but I figured it was well within me and persevered. In my second marathon, I had no real goal. My brother was running 7 minute miles so I figured I'd try to stick with him. I was confident I could do this for 20 miles and then was in unknown territory. At 20 miles, I started to tire and slowed down. I didn't really believe I could do it so wasn't willing to stick it out.

This time I'm aiming for 6.30 miles. I'll be confident on the start line because I've put in some really tough sessions. I'll be able to look back on these in the bad patches in the marathon and hopefully be able to push through them.

Micilin, I've been following your log and your training is going really well. I would advise that you get some really quality runs in over the next week or two. Possibly a long run with 10-12 at your new marathon pace might be the best indicator. If everything goes well, you should be confident that you're capable of running this pace at the full distance and can use this when you're at a low ebb in the marathon. Above all else, you know best what you're capable of.

ThePiedPiper

I agree, the mental side is very important. But, if you're physically in bits after 18-20 miles, all the mental strength in the world doesn't make a blind bit of difference. I like to think I'm fairly mentally tough in races, but when the wheels came off for me badly in Berlin a few years ago, I honestly could not keep running at 18 miles. The pain had me doubled over and I seriously considered dropping out of the race. The only thing that kept me going was that family members had travelled over to support me. The pain in my body only eased when I slowed back to 8 minute mile pace. It was absolute mental torture.

This is something I've often thought about though, and in particular when I missed out on a sub-3 my 21 seconds in Paris. I've asked myself how could I not have pushed on in that last mile. I think the answer that day was that I probably would have collapsed if I had done so. I ran myself into the ground, and literally could not even stand up at the end of the race. There was physically nothing left in the tank. After the race, I had barely any recollection of the last mile or two.

I'll admit that at 18 miles in DCM 2011, when I realised that 2:55 was not going to happen, I didn't care enough to dig deep and ended up just jogging it in. I definitely wasn't mentally strong enough that day. I think I told myself I was happy to have run PBs all year, I hadn't spent money to go overseas, I don't know. Maybe somehow I wanted to be at peace with not making an aggressive target to prove to myself that running really isn't the be all and end all of life.

nerraw1111

Cheers for that Forest.

Micilin Muc

I've invested a lot of time and energy into training for this marathon, with a lot of sacrifices so I feel like I wouldn't be doing myself justice if I started out at 3:30 pace. Blowing up wouldn't do me justice either!!

I'll have a better idea by Saturday once I do 18 miles w/14 at PMP (3:15). It's about 9 seconds slower than my recent HM race, which felt easy, so I suspect to feel somewhat confident by then. Won't make a decision until I do my final PMP the following week.

Thanks everyone for the input. Running without a club has a lot of disadvantages, and I think the Boards ART posters more than make up for most of them!

I would love to see more of posts like RunForestRun's - good, honest analysis!

mr.wiggle

RunForestRun wrote: »

I messed up Paris 2008 very slightly by:
1. Over-hydrating pre-race and in-race, resulting in having toilet stop (30 seconds lost).
2. Running 5-10 seconds a mile too fast.
3. Not using gels.
I finished in 3:00:21.

I messed up Berlin 2008 badly by:
1. Under-hydrating so I wouldn't have to toilet stop.
2. Travelling to Berlin the day before the race, way too busy and not relaxed or eating/drinking properly
3. Going for a sub 2:55 NYC qualifier instead of running safely for a sub-3 when I was in super shape.
4. Not using gels.
I was walking at 18 miles and finished in 3:05.

I messed up Amsterdam 2010 by:
1. Not starting proper marathon training in time. 12-16 weeks isn't enough.
2. Not using gels.
I finished in 3:05, the wheels only coming off in the last 3 miles.

I messed up DCM 2011 by:
1. Going too fast in the first 2 miles (6:28 and 6:29).
2. Being too stubborn to adjust my target to suit the warm, muggy conditions.
3. Going for a target that was at the very limit of my capabilities.
4. Thinking that I was the dogs b0!!0cks and would still run sub-3 even if the original target was too agressive.
I threw in the towel after the sub-3 pacers passed at 20 miles and finished in 3:07.

I messed up Boston 2009 by:
1. Being a complete lunatic and running the first half in 1:32 having not ran for 6 weeks prior to the race with shin splints. Very clever.
2. No gels
3. Nothing right with preparation.
I finished in 3:34

Hi Forest, re-the gels...how may do you use now for Marathons?
And whats the best/ most common way of stashing them about ones person?
I only ask as I ran the Cork City Marathon without any this year and did feel
pretty low after mile 24 so would love some advise on marathon fueling.
Im in the same boat as you MM, hoping for a sub 3.15, fingers crossed !

Thx, Mr.W

rom

I was racking my brains on how to carry gels and http://www.raceready.com/category/mens-running-shorts.html are great. Belts and other stuff like that all stress me out as I feel that they will all cut into me or gels fall out etc. I use powerbar gels in these and they are perfection. Getting them shipped though is expensive. Can't find them this side of the water.

nerraw1111

Re carrying gels. The new range of asics running vests have side pockets for gels. Saw them in 53 degrees out in Carrickmines. Pretty nifty.

Previously I carried some in those passport pouches which are designed to be tucked down your trousers.

Others pin them to their shorts. See here.

http://www.runnersworld.com/community/forums/training/marathon-race-training/technique-pin-gels-shorts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:TrainingForum:697106477Discussion:10b818e7-0abc-4ed2-b391-a9bf3ca0d1cfPost:e6c4bf96-f40c-4c91-a414-b088ca4764b4

opus

rom wrote: »

I was racking my brains on how to carry gels and http://www.raceready.com/category/mens-running-shorts.html are great. Belts and other stuff like that all stress me out as I feel that they will all cut into me or gels fall out etc. I use powerbar gels in these and they are perfection. Getting them shipped though is expensive. Can't find them this side of the water.

See my old post about the Ronhill cargo shorts here.

rom

opus wrote: »

See my old post about the Ronhill cargo shorts here.

Look like they would chafe the legs off ya ? Anyone use them for a marathon ? I'll stick with my short shorts One or two people on here have worn race ready for ultra's and found them great. Would feel the more material that you have if it gets wet it slows you down.

robinph

Re: Carrying stuff/ gels.

I use an SPIBelt, which I got when trying to figure out ways to carry an insulin pump, but it's great for gels and any other gubbins you might want to carry around on runs and you can get loads of stuff in them. They have them on Wiggle now and you will probably find them in some real world shops too.
http://www.spibelt.com/spibelt.php

ThePiedPiper

Mr Wiggle,

In my last 3 marathons, I've used 4 gels at 5 mile intervals. I take them at 6, 11, 16 and 21 miles. This is what works best for me. If I was taking them more often, I think it'd be hard on the stomach. The Lucozade ones I take each have 145 calories, added to maybe 250ml of whatever drink the races give out giving a total of around 600 calories fuelling in-race. This is in or around 5 miles worth of energy. Glycogen reserves are usually depleted around 20 miles so I think it's just about right. Also, I think it probably takes a good 20 minutes for the energy to actually get digested and hit your blood stream, so no point in knocking one back at 24 miles.

Regarding carrying them, I usually carry the first in my hand, and have 3 stashed in the back pocket of either the Adidas or Karimor shorts I use for racing. I wouldn't fancy having them pinned to me, or anything like that, I don't even know they're in the back pocket.

Oh, you should make sure that when you're taking them, there's going to be a water or energy drink station coming up as you'd want to be washing them down. I always check these things on the course map at the expo.

The time for sorting out your gel strategy is now. Get used to taking them, make sure your stomach isn't going to be upset with them.

One piece of advice however, if you overuse gels in your LSRs, you're not teaching your body to burn fat when it's glycogen reserves run dry. Make sure some of your long runs are gel-free. Practice using them to make sure they're right for you, but don't use them as a quick fix in your long runs.

TFBubendorfer

rom wrote: »

I was racking my brains on how to carry gels and http://www.raceready.com/category/mens-running-shorts.html are great. Belts and other stuff like that all stress me out as I feel that they will all cut into me or gels fall out etc. I use powerbar gels in these and they are perfection. Getting them shipped though is expensive. Can't find them this side of the water.

I have 2 pairs of those and they are great. I made a mistake 2 years ago when I was trying to stuff too much into it and they kept dropping down for the first few miles until I lightened the load. :rolleyes:

I got them a few years ago before the shipping charges went ballistic. Right now I wouldn't get them because the charges are just beyond stupid (same goes for my electrolyte capsules). I'm waiting for sanity to return.

rom

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

I have 2 pairs of those and they are great. I made a mistake 2 years ago when I was trying to stuff too much into it and they kept dropping down for the first few miles until I lightened the load. :rolleyes:

I got them a few years ago before the shipping charges went ballistic. Right now I wouldn't get them because the charges are just beyond stupid (same goes for my electrolyte capsules). I'm waiting for sanity to return.

I was able to ship them through internal mail from our US office so shipping wasn't a problem. Must say I am really happy with them.

average_runner

RunForestRun wrote: »

Mr Wiggle,

In my last 3 marathons, I've used 4 gels at 5 mile intervals. I take them at 6, 11, 16 and 21 miles. This is what works best for me. If I was taking them more often, I think it'd be hard on the stomach. The Lucozade ones I take each have 145 calories, added to maybe 250ml of whatever drink the races give out giving a total of around 600 calories fuelling in-race. This is in or around 5 miles worth of energy. Glycogen reserves are usually depleted around 20 miles so I think it's just about right. Also, I think it probably takes a good 20 minutes for the energy to actually get digested and hit your blood stream, so no point in knocking one back at 24 miles.

Regarding carrying them, I usually carry the first in my hand, and have 3 stashed in the back pocket of either the Adidas or Karimor shorts I use for racing. I wouldn't fancy having them pinned to me, or anything like that, I don't even know they're in the back pocket.

Oh, you should make sure that when you're taking them, there's going to be a water or energy drink station coming up as you'd want to be washing them down. I always check these things on the course map at the expo.

The time for sorting out your gel strategy is now. Get used to taking them, make sure your stomach isn't going to be upset with them.

One piece of advice however, if you overuse gels in your LSRs, you're not teaching your body to burn fat when it's glycogen reserves run dry. Make sure some of your long runs are gel-free. Practice using them to make sure they're right for you, but don't use them as a quick fix in your long runs.

Did u ever try the isogels that don't need water? Used to take the luxozade ones.

ThePiedPiper

I haven't tried them, no.. The reason I use the Lucozade ones are that they've such a high calorie content, 145 calories per gel. I used to buy them for a quid each in JJB, Dundalk, and got a box of 24 for 24 euro from some crowd up north there about a year ago. I'd a few High 5 ones I bought at some Expo or other, and though they were grand but had only about 90 calories per gel. The Lucozade one is a thick, sticky number but it does what its supposed to do.

PDCAT

robinph wrote: »

Re: Carrying stuff/ gels.

I use an SPIBelt, which I got when trying to figure out ways to carry an insulin pump, but it's great for gels and any other gubbins you might want to carry around on runs and you can get loads of stuff in them. They have them on Wiggle now and you will probably find them in some real world shops too.
http://www.spibelt.com/spibelt.php

I also got myself one of these last year in prep for DCM 11. Find these excellent. I'm pretty finicky regarding what i would carry when i'm running. THe least thing annoys me. Gave this belt a go and wasn't sorry. Normally carry only gels in it. Will hold quiet a few gels in fact. Think i stuffed about 5/6 gels in it for DCM last year.

TJC

nerraw1111 wrote: »

Re carrying gels. The new range of asics running vests have side pockets for gels. Saw them in 53 degrees out in Carrickmines. Pretty nifty.

Previously I carried some in those passport pouches which are designed to be tucked down your trousers.

Others pin them to their shorts. See here.

http://www.runnersworld.com/community/forums/training/marathon-race-training/technique-pin-gels-shorts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:TrainingForum:697106477Discussion:10b818e7-0abc-4ed2-b391-a9bf3ca0d1cfPost:e6c4bf96-f40c-4c91-a414-b088ca4764b4

Used this method in my first and only marathon... just practise it beforehand.... cut in a little bit to either side of the gel, so it will tear off a bit easier..

KielyUnusual

I decided on my last run that I'd try just sticking them in between my shorts and my boxers along my hip. Worked a treat. Couldn't even feel them there and no need for any belts or any of that lark. It' worth a try giving it a shot on your next long run. Simplicity is best.

Micilin Muc

Micilin Muc wrote: »

How close to the marathon can I revise my goal pace? I've been training for 3:30 until last week, now I'm looking at 3:15. I have 5 weeks left until DCM.

Have been following P&D 55-70 and my recent race times indicate I can go a good bit faster than 3:30. McMillan predicts 3:13:54 from my 5km time (19:54), and 3:19:47 from my Half Marathon time (1:34:56 - could have gone a minute or two faster).

Also, this is the third marathon I have trained for (4:42 in DCM '11 and 3:56 in Connemarathon '12).

Does the McMillan + 10% guideline apply in my case?!

Mind made up now. Did 18 miles this morning with 14 miles at the pace for a 3:15 marathon. I faded quite a bit towards the last few miles. I could keep fooling myself and train extra hard for the next 4 weeks but I'm just not able for that pace for 26 miles and that's the reality!

I suppose this thread reflects something other runners go through in the final weeks before a marathon. You can feel on top of the world with your progress and think that you can still keep improving at that rate. But 1 more week of training and three weeks of taper - that much of an improvement is not going to happen.

I'm happy to go for 3:25, or 3:20, that will still be a pretty big PB so I'll take that thanks!

Thanks again for your input!

PaulieC

Good decision. Better to be able to push on from 3.30 or 3.25 pace than to fall back from 3.15

nerraw1111

Fair play for taking the decision.

I'm still in limbo, between 3 hours and dropping back to 3.10/15. Did 15 miles at 3 hour pace on Tuesday. Shattered afterwards. Run another 11 miles on top of that in 4 weeks' time?

I've only done one 20 mile run so far, and two 18s. I've a 17 miler on Monday with 20 the following week.

Was considering bumping the 17 up to 20?

ThePiedPiper

Micilin Muc, fair play to you for giving it a go on the long run. The PMP miles should be a tough slog alright, but do-able. Good decision to revise pace to 3:20-3:25. I would still say go out at about 3:23 pace and if you're feeling good, you can move it on in the closing stages.

Nerraw, a 15 mile PMP run is a seriously tough session, and it'd be normal to be wrecked after it. A good taper will look after your energy levels and the last 11 won't seem as difficult.

Definitely worth doing another 20 I would say. I think at least three 20 milers should be done. 2 would be cutting it tight.

snailsong

Just saw this thread after posting on a very similiar topic in the improvers thread. I too am torn between attempting 3.15 and being less ambitious. MM we may be pacing each other to 3.20 yet.

This has been an excellent read and very helpful. I think I need to do some longer run at PMP before I decide. Runforestrun, thanks for the very candid posts, very insightful.

Kielyunusual, I might humbly disaggree with you. I find generally that I perform best when I know I have an ambitious target, at the limit of my ability. This is what motivates me. Last year I attempted 3.30 off a 1.40 half in my first marathon against the advice of many. Here's the race report in verse form:

There was a young man named Paul,
Who met with a terrible wall,
Though he felt like sh1t
He kept her lit,
Three twenty-nine overall.

ger664

RunForestRun wrote: »

One piece of advice however, if you overuse gels in your LSRs, you're not teaching your body to burn fat when it's glycogen reserves run dry. Make sure some of your long runs are gel-free. Practice using them to make sure they're right for you, but don't use them as a quick fix in your long runs.

+1 on this, You should really try and go as close to glycogen depletion on some of your LSR's. I carry a gel jst in case I over cook it and start to get a bit light headed.