Off The Ball Official Thread <Mod Note - Post #1, #533, #6651>

gormdubhgorm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Yeah I was going to like it until I read 'caveman football'.

Plus makes me laugh how some people think short passing is the answer.
Wrong! Penetrative forward passing is the answer (long or short) causing danger to teams.
Not tippy tappy sideways and backwards for the sake of it all the time = no threat. Like Georgia!

One of the best players in the world was involved in a Wales goal against Ireland which was not tippy tappy.

Direct ball in - Bale wins header flicked on and Brooks header goal. Simple and effective. There is not only one way of playing. As long it creates problems for opponents it is effective. No matter what the style.

Have you let anyone else know that you've found the answer? It would be a shame to let it go unseen in this dark corner of the internet.

Higgins5473

[Deleted User] wrote: »

LOL.

When you're done being angry and mashing your fingers off the key pad and you want to debate or discuss anything I've said then let me know.

Trying to debate or discuss with me that 30 years of Irish football has been “caveman”, again whatever that means in your head but I’m assuming it’s the the hoofball term you were looking for. But no, I’d rather try and discuss the best kind of hull on a boat for turning with a flat earther, it would be a more worthy and insightful conversation.

Higgins5473

Higgins5473 wrote: »

Trying to debate or discuss with me that 30 years of Irish football has been “caveman”, again whatever that means in your head but I’m assuming it’s the the hoofball term you were looking for. But no, I’d rather try and discuss the best kind of hull on a boat for turning with a flat earther, it would be a more worthy and insightful conversation.

That was one word in a long post. Not sure why you are so hung up on it.

As a matter of interest, why are you so angry? I just have a different opinion to you on football, it's hardly something to be getting so hot and bothered over.

Higgins5473

The ‘you’re very angry/anger’ response is a very tired old response. It’s as bad as the ‘woke’ stuff. If I stick a smiley face in will it convince you I’m happy ðŸ˜႒

Getting “hung up” on the very basis of your post that Irish football has been “caveman” is not getting “hung up”, it’s highlighting that you’ve said Irish football was something that it’s not, you haven’t a breeze. You made such an effort with that long winded load of shįte too. Better luck next time, here’s another one to show my calm happiness ðŸ˜

Jim Leahy

you do sound angry

Higgins5473

Higgins5473 wrote: »

The ‘you’re very angry/anger’ response is a very tired old response. It’s as bad as the ‘woke’ stuff. If I stick a smiley face in will it convince you I’m happy ðŸ˜႒

Getting “hung up” on the very basis of your post that Irish football has been “caveman” is not getting “hung up”, it’s highlighting that you’ve said Irish football was something that it’s not, you haven’t a breeze. You made such an effort with that long winded load of shįte too. Better luck next time, here’s another one to show my calm happiness ðŸ˜

We'll agree to disagree so. Pity you can't just have a civil debate without feeling the need to abuse someone. It's just football.

Higgins5473

Jim Leahy wrote: »

you do sound angry

I am Jim, not nearly as angry as Jim leahys fourth post and on to teacher forums moaning, how many times banned so far Jim?

Jim Leahy

Higgins5473 wrote: »

I am Jim, not nearly as angry as Jim leahys fourth post and on to teacher forums moaning, how many times banned so far Jim?

Very angry man

gormdubhgorm

Deleted User wrote: »

Have you let anyone else know that you've found the answer? It would be a shame to let it go unseen in this dark corner of the internet.

It is one thing seeing the obvious. But it takes a special man to have the charisma, talent, and organisational nous to implement it. It is why Jack Charlton was so successful. Kenny is not that type of man.

Then on top of this you have to have the players of the requisite footballing intelligence and ability, required to implement the managers vision.

Ireland has none of the above, so it looks like 10-15 years of waiting for something to happen.

rino87

Jim Leahy wrote: »

Very angry man

I am angry Tony

gormdubhgorm

RINO87 wrote: »

I am angry Tony

Roddy Collins comment at the end makes it “Well I think he was a bit angry”

Jim Leahy

that Higgins profile is angry

Blanco100

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Most of this is actually already in place, with the national player pathway, regionalised centres, restructuring of underage national leagues, coaching pathways etc. Slag off the FAI all we want, but they actually have a lot of good people working in Abbottstown and over the last few years they have got their house in order in this regard, and the fruits are being seen in some of our underage teams now.

The issue with the international manager, as I see it, is that the last few appointments, pre Kenny, have all been made in spite of all this work that is being done. The international team existed in isolation and they were high profile vanity appointments by Delaney, with Trap, Keane-O'Neill and Mick given the remit of qualifying for major tournaments and nothing else. They played a totally different style of football and there was no sense of a connection with the U21 or other underage teams.

This is why Kenny's appointment is important and why we need to stick with him and back what he is doing. He is moving us away from an era that delivered short term gains but for which there was no vision or plan for football overall in this county. Now we have a plan, and Kenny has been tasked with delivering it. In that sense, he has an opportunity to do so much more than anyone that has come before him in the recent past. That may simply be putting the caveman football of the last 30 years in the past but somebody has to do it and I have huge admiration for the bravery and determination with which he is doing it. It's a bigger picture than the quality of the current players and the results; somebody has to grasp the nettle and do what he is doing sooner rather than later. Time will tell if he is the right man for the job.

First half of that post is excellent.

We need more joined up thinking, the underage style should be an extension of the senior team. Getting former players involved in managing underage teams is a good habit aswell.

I think we should lower expectations for few years and put resources in building from the ground up.

Develop tactics and style that should be natural to our football culture. Courageous, determined, tough. But with the odd maverick street style player encouraged too. We need to move away from relying on UK clubs developing our players.

Sure let the cream go, and start building the leagues rep. Maybe we will see our clubs start selling players to English clubs at 20-23 for decent money even.

Kenny is no genius. Even as a LOI fan I had to laugh at this rep he garnered as a total football promoter. As was said, national team coaches job is to win games with a squad of players he sees for 3/4 days at a time. If he wants to develop players he'd have been better as a technical director or the like.

Rugby and more so GAA will always limit our potential as you have so many potential players wasting their time spreading themselves thin.

Piehead

RINO87 wrote: »

I am angry Tony

What was his beef with Stephen Kenny at the time?

gormdubhgorm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It is one thing seeing the obvious. But it takes a special man to have the charisma, talent, and organisational nous to implement it. It is why Jack Charlton was so successful. Kenny is not that type of man.

Then on top of this you have to have the players of the requisite footballing intelligence and ability, required to implement the managers vision.

Ireland has none of the above, so it looks like 10-15 years of waiting for something to happen.

You're presenting your opinions as definitive facts. Only time will tell if Kenny is the right man and if the players have what it takes to play a different style of football.

Blanco100

Blanco100 wrote: »

First half of that post is excellent.

We need more joined up thinking, the underage style should be an extension of the senior team. Getting former players involved in managing underage teams is a good habit aswell.

I think we should lower expectations for few years and put resources in building from the ground up.

Develop tactics and style that should be natural to our football culture. Courageous, determined, tough. But with the odd maverick street style player encouraged too. We need to move away from relying on UK clubs developing our players.

Sure let the cream go, and start building the leagues rep. Maybe we will see our clubs start selling players to English clubs at 20-23 for decent money even.

Kenny is no genius. Even as a LOI fan I had to laugh at this rep he garnered as a total football promoter. As was said, national team coaches job is to win games with a squad of players he sees for 3/4 days at a time. If he wants to develop players he'd have been better as a technical director or the like.

Rugby and more so GAA will always limit our potential as you have so many potential players wasting their time spreading themselves thin.

I wouldn't say his remit is developing players, but I do think his appointment was important because we needed to change a culture that was starting to set in - the backs to the wall, long ball culture that had become embedded towards the end of the Trap and O'Neill eras and was carried on by Mick to a lesser extent. Defending in two deep banks of four and treating the ball like it is the enemy can yield results - Germany home, Wales away - but ultimately you get found out pretty quickly and it is not sustainable in the long run.

Not saying Kenny is the messiah, but at least we know that he'll try and change the culture here, move us into line with nearly every other international team out there and not make us some outlier, playing a brand of football that is totally out of kilter with our underage teams. I think it will take time but somebody has to do it and there'll be some (lots!) pain along the way. The first few campaigns under Mick were awful as we transitioned away from the Jack era.

BPKS

This is a bullsh1t non-story about Kenny and his motivational video before the England game. Some flakey non-playing member of staff has gone and got offended on him.


Now what a load of BS.


But.......


...............given the stance Ger and his OTB presenters have taken before I am sure they will be calling for him to get sacked and publically flogged.

gormdubhgorm

Deleted User wrote: »

You're presenting your opinions as definitive facts. Only time will tell if Kenny is the right man and if the players have what it takes to play a different style of football.

If anyone is you are weren't you the person who claimed Ireland played 'caveman football' for 30 years? As if it was a fact? It appears to me you just do not like my comments. As this is the second snide comment you have made in succession to me. Following the previous one which said the following:

Deleted User wrote: »

Have you let anyone else know that you've found the answer? It would be a shame to let it go unseen in this dark corner of the internet.

However, rather then comment on the actual substance of my posts and observations - (which seem obvious to me and many others - even as non experts). You seem to continue to want to duck and dive rather than actually address my points. Bolded.

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Yeah I was going to like it until I read 'caveman football'.

Plus makes me laugh how some people think short passing is the answer.
Wrong! Penetrative forward passing is the answer (long or short) causing danger to teams.
Not tippy tappy sideways and backwards for the sake of it all the time = no threat. Like Georgia!

One of the best players in the world was involved in a Wales goal against Ireland which was not tippy tappy.

Direct ball in - Bale wins header flicked on and Brooks header goal. Simple and effective. There is not only one way of playing. As long it creates problems for opponents it is effective. No matter what the style.

As other posters have pointed out rightly - International football is about results regardless of the style.

Plus what is concerning now is: (as well as lack of goals which was always an issue)

1) The players lack fight and tempo

2) Team look more likely to conceed because of the above.

3) Team much easier to defend against than any Irish team in my lifetime - because of no penetrative passes - side to side at the back and backwards.

4) No focus on set pieces Ireland's previous strength - or variation - Duffy's head the only answer?

5) Team and players confidence appears to be at an all time low

6) No one knows who Kenny's no1 starting XI is - even Kenny himself

7) Ireland have no creative and confident midfielder who Kenny rates (he does not seem to rate Byrne). Such a midfielder is crucial for Kenny's system

8) Ireland have mostly hardworking central midfielders who lack creativity and Kenny seems to be trying to shoehorn them into a system/style of playing they are unable for. Instead of - playing a system which suits thier strengths

9) Questions why 3-5-2 was never tried? Abundance of centre backs. Plus Stevens/McLean and Doherty/Coleman/Christie could play wing backs. He is mostly wedded to a 4-3-3.

I believe most of the above is fairly self evident. Plus Kenny needs time maybe 2 years team in transition/covid and so on.

But surely the points I raised can't be simply ignored, as there are clearly many issues with the current approach?

Abel Ruiz

BPKS wrote: »

This is a bullsh1t non-story about Kenny and his motivational video before the England game. Some flakey non-playing member of staff has gone and got offended on him.


Now what a load of BS.


But.......


...............given the stance Ger and his OTB presenters have taken before I am sure they will be calling for him to get sacked and publically flogged.

In fairness to the muppet. He didn't say that. He was on the paddypower half hour advocating gambling for his wages. But he said the main issue with Stephen kenny and the Ireland team, is the rat that leaked it to the english media.

gormdubhgorm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

If anyone is you are weren't you the person who claimed Ireland played 'caveman football' for 30 years? As if it was a fact? It appears to me you just do not like my comments. As this is the second snide comment you have made in succession to me. Following the previous one which said the following:



However, rather then comment on the actual substance of my posts and observations - (which seem obvious to me and many others - even as non experts). You seem to continue to want to duck and dive rather than actually address my points. Bolded.



As other posters have pointed out rightly - International football is about results regardless of the style.

Plus what is concerning now is: (as well as lack of goals which was always an issue)

1) The players lack fight and tempo

2) Team look more likely to conceed because of the above.

3) Team much easier to defend against than any Irish team in my lifetime - because of no penetrative passes - side to side at the back and backwards.

4) No focus on set pieces Ireland's previous strength - or variation - Duffy's head the only answer?

5) Team and players confidence appears to be at an all time low

6) No one knows who Kenny's no1 starting XI is - even Kenny himself

7) Ireland have no creative and confident midfielder who Kenny rates (he does not seem to rate Byrne). Such a midfielder is crucial for Kenny's system

8) Ireland have mostly hardworking central midfielders who lack creativity and Kenny seems to be trying to shoehorn them into a system/style of playing they are unable for. Instead of - playing a system which suits thier strengths

9) Questions why 3-5-2 was never tried? Abundance of centre backs. Plus Stevens/McLean and Doherty/Coleman/Christie could play wing backs. He is mostly wedded to a 4-3-3.

I believe most of the above is fairly self evident. Plus Kenny needs time maybe 2 years team in transition/covid and so on.

But surely the points I raised can't be simply ignored, as there are clearly many issues with the current approach?

The first remark was a bit snide alright so apologies for that. The second one was not intended as being snide at all.

With regard to the "caveman" football comment, the 30 years was a bit of an arbitrary number, wasn't important in the overall context of the post and I was probably mostly talking about the last 12 years but I suppose if you are counting:

90-96: Charlton

2008 to 2018: Trap and then O'Neill

2018-2020: Mick Part 2

I would say I was at the vast majority of the home games and a good few away in that period and we played poor football for the most part. The start of the Trap and O'Neill eras were relatively ok but things went downhill quickly and some of my most depressing experiences as an Ireland fan came during those reigns despite qualifying for the Euros twice and some good results.

Overall, I can see where you are coming from with the points above but I think people need to give the man a break and take the ridiculous circumstances he's had to deal with into account before making definitive judgments. In the only game we had close to a team for, we played well against Slovakia away from home, were the better team and cut them open a few times. Our talent pool is very shallow and when we are missing key players we are going to be poor, but he's not going to throw his plan out the window just to get results in meaningless games.

People seem to think he wants us to play like Barcelona under Pep, but as he proved with the 21s, Kenny is well capable of playing the type of football you are promoting. I think for now he's trying to get the players to take responsibility and to pass under pressure and not allow them the outball of the hoof up the pitch. I'm sure with time the style will mature to reflect what you are suggesting.

Overall, I'm already growing weary of Kenny's detractors. It's like people are waiting for him to fail because he hasn't come the traditional path, as was the case with Kerr. I just hope he gets time to do the job, and as I said if he's not capable of it then he will be found out in the long run.

Did you smash it

We move the ball too slowly through the back to midfield. Slowly hit passes, players taking touches when they need to kill it and move it fast. We also have no good footballing and physical centre forward to take the ball and spread it and worry defenders.

These would always be problems but are huge problems in Kenny’s system.

I think It’s hard to see Kenny make it to 2022 as I don’t think we’ll improve in 2021. The problems are too inherent and insurmountable.

RugbyLover123

Is it not just as simple as we don’t have the players?

Years ago we had a number of players at the top end of the premier league, now we have Doherty and Coleman. Two right backs. With neither guaranteed their position. And you could argue Everton have hardly been top end PL the last few years.

We could have a management trio of Ferguson, Klopp and Guardiola and they’d even struggle to get results out of the current crop.

We can’t compare ourselves to even Wales and Scotland because at least they have a sprinkling of players playing for Juventus, Liverpool, United, Arsenal, Spurs. Which can often be the difference at international level.

Did you smash it

RugbyLover123 wrote: »

Is it not just as simple as we don’t have the players?

Years ago we had a number of players at the top end of the premier league, now we have Doherty and Coleman. Two right backs. With neither guaranteed their position. And you could argue Everton have hardly been top end PL the last few years.

We could have a management trio of Ferguson, Klopp and Guardiola and they’d even struggle to get results out of the current crop.

We can’t compare ourselves to even Wales and Scotland because at least they have a sprinkling of players playing for Juventus, Liverpool, United, Arsenal, Spurs. Which can often be the difference at international level.

It is that simple effectively but OTB and other media outlets have to get clicks and ratings so they form narratives that there are other reasons at play. People buy into these narratives.

Tell me how

RugbyLover123 wrote: »

Is it not just as simple as we don’t have the players?

Years ago we had a number of players at the top end of the premier league, now we have Doherty and Coleman. Two right backs. With neither guaranteed their position. And you could argue Everton have hardly been top end PL the last few years.

We could have a management trio of Ferguson, Klopp and Guardiola and they’d even struggle to get results out of the current crop.

We can’t compare ourselves to even Wales and Scotland because at least they have a sprinkling of players playing for Juventus, Liverpool, United, Arsenal, Spurs. Which can often be the difference at international level.

Think that sums it up.
Unless you have 80% or above of your first choice 11 regularly playing at a high level, you're going to struggle.

Just as an example, in the Irish team which lost to Holland at USA 94, 8 of the 11 starters finished that season in a team in the top 10 in the Premier league.
2 more were in teams in the top 4 in the SPL and the final players team was 16th in the PL.

In comparison, in the Irish team which lost to France at Euro 2016, 6 of the 11 starters were playing in the championship and of those in the EPL, most were in the lower half with Shane Long at Southampton being the highest finisher at number 6.

Focus on Irish grassroots (which others have said is happening) should lead to more players ultimately playing at a higher level and that is more likely to bring success to the senior team than any particular coach, bar alone an anomaly where one coach with a couple of special players on the form of their lives and a favourable draw can enjoy a period of success, but you can't really plan for that.

I might add, I would be much more in favour of this grass roots development rather than chasing players in the EPL squads with Irish heritage and ending up with Grealish and Rice type scenarios.

Did you smash it

Tell me how wrote: »

Think that sums it up.
Unless you have 80% or above of your first choice 11 regularly playing at a high level, you're going to struggle.

Or if you have one absolute stud it can take you to a very high level. See Poland. Their squad is better than ours but not by that much until you get to Lewandowski who basically is a cheat code at international level.

Ireland have no attacking “stud” to build their team around. One individual can make a huge difference at international level.

The future development of Troy Parrott is therefore absolutely huge.

Did you smash it

Did you smash it wrote: »

Or if you have one absolute stud it can take you to a very high level. See Poland. Their squad is better than ours but not by that much until you get to Lewandowski who basically is a cheat code at international level.

Ireland have no attacking “stud” to build their team around. One individual can make a huge difference at international level.

The future development of Troy Parrott is therefore absolutely huge.

Gareth Bale at Wales too. You can build an international team around one superstar.

I'm not sure comparing the '94 and and 2016 squads is relevant. '94 was before the globalisation of football and foreign players arrived in England en masse. Plenty of the guys in the '94 squad and team would be lower end Premier League or championship players now. The number of young Irish guys going over to England has gone through the floor and there are far fewer opportunities for Irish players in general. It's a totally different climate.

gormdubhgorm

Deleted User wrote: »

The first remark was a bit snide alright so apologies for that. The second one was not intended as being snide at all.

With regard to the "caveman" football comment, the 30 years was a bit of an arbitrary number, wasn't important in the overall context of the post and I was probably mostly talking about the last 12 years but I suppose if you are counting:

90-96: Charlton

2008 to 2018: Trap and then O'Neill

2018-2020: Mick Part 2

I would say I was at the vast majority of the home games and a good few away in that period and we played poor football for the most part. The start of the Trap and O'Neill eras were relatively ok but things went downhill quickly and some of my most depressing experiences as an Ireland fan came during those reigns despite qualifying for the Euros twice and some good results.

Overall, I can see where you are coming from with the points above but I think people need to give the man a break and take the ridiculous circumstances he's had to deal with into account before making definitive judgments. In the only game we had close to a team for, we played well against Slovakia away from home, were the better team and cut them open a few times. Our talent pool is very shallow and when we are missing key players we are going to be poor, but he's not going to throw his plan out the window just to get results in meaningless games.

People seem to think he wants us to play like Barcelona under Pep, but as he proved with the 21s, Kenny is well capable of playing the type of football you are promoting. I think for now he's trying to get the players to take responsibility and to pass under pressure and not allow them the outball of the hoof up the pitch. I'm sure with time the style will mature to reflect what you are suggesting.

Overall, I'm already growing weary of Kenny's detractors. It's like people are waiting for him to fail because he hasn't come the traditional path, as was the case with Kerr. I just hope he gets time to do the job, and as I said if he's not capable of it then he will be found out in the long run.

I think what you describe as 'caveman football' shows a lack of knowledge of what was done.

Charlton for instance played football of his time 4-4-2. But was also he was innovative because international football teams did not play direct football. Nor did they 'press'. They all played with playmakers in the 86 WC and Charlton saw Ireland were miles behind teams playing like that. Even with the pool of players they had.
He had to find a way to get results quickly and go direct play it simple with a strategy.
It was not just direct football for the sake of it and lumping it there was a clear strategy to it. Charlton was at pains to explain his strategy time and again and bristled when it was merely referred to as long ball football.

Not only that but Charlton was the first in international football of what now would be called 'gegen pressing'. Charlton often lamented the fact that the Danes won a Euros using this strategy mixed with direct football.

Explained here @15.00

Also explained very well here: @21.34 why it is not 'kick and rush' - also mentions pressing. Plus even mentions how he picked a style that was familiar to Gaelic Football players.

To call what Jack Charlton did 'caveman football' does the great man a disservice, shows a lack of insight, and does a disservice to the players who had success playing under him.

You mention MON, Trap, and Mick second time around.

Mick played a mix of slightly direct and at times attractive football the first time around. With his club teams he was not a lump it long for the sake of it merchant.
Would it not stand to reason that Mick just did not have the same quality of players to work with? In his second spell?
Mick would not have wanted the players to lump it for the sake of it.

MON came from the Clough school of football but was not afraid to go direct when required. Look at his club teams who were successful Celtic and Leicester gives you a great idea how he wanted his teams to play. Fast aggressive football.It seems to me at the start the players implemented a good style and strategy. But in time the players were just incapable of implementing it. Wes Hoolahan was used under MON - he was getting on though and would struggle to play for a few games in succession for the full 90.

Trap it was clear he did not rate Ireland's ability to play possession football by not including Andy Reid / Hoolahan regularly. However he still managed to qualify Ireland for Euro 2012. I would argue that Robbie Keane masked over a lot of the problems Ireland had. As by 2008-2013 28 years of age - 32 years of age Ireland had the last years of Robbie where he went from a force to a fading one.

But Trap was a very successful manager and picked his team as he saw it. A great judge of a player. If he did not think Ireland were good enough to play a more possession based style with a Hoolahan or Reid at the fulcrum you have to ask why.

At the moment Ireland clearly does not have the players to play a possession based football style. I would suggest that when Kenny eventually leaves the job in over two years at least. That he be given a director of football role in the FAI as that would suit him far better. Let him work from the grassroots up.
Something that should have been done with Brian Kerr as well. Always found it mystifying that a man like that of such football knowledge was discarded completely by the FAI.

You mention the Ireland u21's I was at Ireland v Italy u21's when Kenny was manager it was 0-0 attractive at times. But lacked a cutting edge from Ireland. Sound familiar?

https://www.fai.ie/ireland/match/13/2021/2026499

gormdubhgorm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I think what you describe as 'caveman football' shows a lack of knowledge of what was done.

Charlton for instance played football of his time 4-4-2. But was also he was innovative because international football teams did not play direct football. Nor did they 'press'. They all played with playmakers in the 86 WC and Charlton saw Ireland were miles behind teams playing like that. Even with the pool of players they had.
He had to find a way to get results quickly and go direct play it simple with a strategy.
It was not just direct football for the sake of it and lumping it there was a clear strategy to it. Charlton was at pains to explain his strategy time and again and bristled when it was merely referred to as long ball football.

Not only that but Charlton was the first in international football of what now would be called 'gegen pressing'. Charlton often lamented the fact that the Danes won a Euros using this strategy mixed with direct football.

Explained here @15.00

Also explained very well here: @21.34 why it is not 'kick and rush' - also mentions pressing. Plus even mentions how he picked a style that was familiar to Gaelic Football players.

To call what Jack Charlton did 'caveman football' does the great man a disservice, shows a lack of insight, and does a disservice to the players who had success playing under him.

You mention MON, Trap, and Mick second time around.

Mick played a mix of slightly direct and at times attractive football the first time around. With his club teams he was not a lump it long for the sake of it merchant.
Would it not stand to reason that Mick just did not have the same quality of players to work with? In his second spell?
Mick would not have wanted the players to lump it for the sake of it.

MON came from the Clough school of football but was not afraid to go direct when required. Look at his club teams who were successful Celtic and Leicester gives you a great idea how he wanted his teams to play. Fast aggressive football.It seems to me at the start the players implemented a good style and strategy. But in time the players were just incapable of implementing it. Wes Hoolahan was used under MON - he was getting on though and would struggle to play for a few games in succession for the full 90.

Trap it was clear he did not rate Ireland's ability to play possession football by not including Andy Reid / Hoolahan regularly. However he still managed to qualify Ireland for Euro 2012. I would argue that Robbie Keane masked over a lot of the problems Ireland had. As by 2008-2013 28 years of age - 32 years of age Ireland had the last years of Robbie where he went from a force to a fading one.

But Trap was a very successful manager and picked his team as he saw it. A great judge of a player. If he did not think Ireland were good enough to play a more possession based style with a Hoolahan or Reid at the fulcrum you have to ask why.

At the moment Ireland clearly does not have the players to play a possession based football style. I would suggest that when Kenny eventually leaves the job in over two years at least. That he be given a director of football role in the FAI as that would suit him far better. Let him work from the grassroots up.
Something that should have been done with Brian Kerr as well. Always found it mystifying that a man like that of such football knowledge was discarded completely by the FAI.

You mention the Ireland u21's I was at Ireland v Italy u21's when Kenny was manager it was 0-0 attractive at times. But lacked a cutting edge from Ireland. Sound familiar?

https://www.fai.ie/ireland/match/13/2021/2026499

Thanks for engaging and for the detailed response.

I've been going to Ireland games for 25 years and have been to the majority of home games since the mid 90s and plenty of away. Without wanting to sound smart, I know what I saw and don't need a lesson in football or a lesson in revisionism at this stage.

I've played to a good level for many years and am still playing for my club at 40, albeit at a modest level. I've started my coaching badges and coach underage at my club and would like to think I know the game enough and have enough experience to be able to make an informed comment on it. You've gotten stuck on one comment I made.

As I said, thanks for engaging and for taking the time to post the material, nearly all of which I have seen, heard and read before, particularly the stuff about Charlton.

Fingers crossed, we can move on from the current mess and get back to playing at a decent level at international level. I think it's best we just leave it at that.

Wilbury Twist

Joe Molloy is the Pat Kenny of sports broadcasting.

Thelonious Monk

Jasus this Northern Irish golf wan sounds like she went to the G Mac school of elocution