new members v existing members

Pdoghue

What do people think of the following:

If a club has a subscription of 1000 Euros per year and they are offering new members a deal for the remainder of this year and the next 2 years for 1800, do you think that is unfair to existing members, i.e., why don't existing members get the benefit of the new members deal?

big_drive

Hard to know. To try get people in they have to offer something. Most existing members might be happy to see the club making an effort to keep the club strong and attract new members

mike12

The rest of the year is a bit irrelevant so they are getting a 100 off a year basically so not a huge reduction really. Clubs are desperate for new members and getting them in is the only way they will survive so getting 1800 for 2 years is a good idea much better than having a 1000 from now till the end of next year. Plus getting 1800 up front means the club can earn a bit of interest on the 800 rather than having to wait a year to get hold of that money. I'd bet they would be willing to listen to u if you offered to pay your next 2 years subs up front for the 10% reduction.
Mike

Almaviva

Such deals are fair and in the interest of existing members. They are getting benefit from the deal though in general they dont realise it.

Offers and discounts like that are common in Irish golf clubs these days as the oversupply of clubs fishes for too few golfers, and it has created two distinct groups of members: the longterm member, and the migrant deal hunter (which is not to run him down - he may be struggling to stay in the game in straightened financial circumstances). The cut price member would probably not join the club were it not for the discount, and by joining, is keeping the existing member's sub down. The existing member should appreciate this.

What the existing member's higher sub is also buying him is continuity and stability if he values club association, playing with familar group of friends or family, or location. He has the choice to move to a cheaper option also, but those who stay are choosing to pay a higher sub than they might if they moved because they value these aspects of being a member of their club. The reduced sub man is forsaking these aspects, and will either stump up the full sub in a year or two if he wishes to stay, or hit the road again if he prefers that with its accompanying sub saving.

The reality is, these deals are a natural and good response to the economic situation of the Irish golfing population these days: keeping as many people in the game as possible, and as much income from the whole group as possible, despite some perceived inequalities.

Alrite Chief

Brings back up the whole South County debate. Lets face it your club is only going to take these steps to encourage new members as it really needs them to survive. A decision to do so will be voted by the committee. If its happening your club needs it. You could either a) refuse to pay your following years subs and see your club go down the swanny like SC or b) pay up and hope your club weathers the current economic storm.

On the bright side you can still avail of great value elsewhere be it new membership somewhere else or just cheaper tee times in clubs you'd have never got to play years ago.

rafared

Many if not all clubs will be looking at ways to gain additional members. I posted recently in another thread that around 5000 males per year had given up GUI and club membership each year for the past 5 years. Thats 25,000 less subs available to clubs. The economic reality is that that trend will continue and increase. Clubs have closed and more are likely to do do. Im no economist but people are facing extra charges, tax, property tax, water charges and god knows what else. I cant justify the paying the sub this year (1500) and have dropped my membership and quit playing. I may not give up entirely but wont be handing out 1k plus each year in the current climate. Clubs that have huge loans are in real trouble.

Alrite Chief

You are dead right rafared. Lots of options out there for you to keep playing though. The likes of country memberships, Blessington lakes GUI membership only, 5 day memberships, 3 day memberships, society golf etc etc...

There is incredible differences out there from one club to another how the club is run in terms of membership and keeping the time sheets busy with societies and trade times etc. As you mention though its the clubs with massive overheads/loans that will suffer most.

rafared

Alrite Chief wrote: »

You are dead right rafared. Lots of options out there for you to keep playing though. The likes of country memberships, Blessington lakes GUI membership only, 5 day memberships, 3 day memberships, society golf etc etc...

There is incredible differences out there from one club to another how the club is run in terms of membership and keeping the time sheets busy with societies and trade times etc. As you mention though its the clubs with massive overheads/loans that will suffer most.

Lots of options for sure. Will look at again in the new year and see how im fixed maybe. The face of golf in Ireland is undergoing a huge change. The club I just left were charging 19k for a "share" not too long ago. They offered me one for 2k this year down from 5k last year. I wont go into specifics but they are in huge debt and can just about pay the interest on the loan they took out rebuild the clubhouse.
I hope they stay afloat beause there are a lot of good people who have paid a lot for shares that are pretty much worthless.

PRAF

Pdoghue wrote: »

What do people think of the following:

If a club has a subscription of 1000 Euros per year and they are offering new members a deal for the remainder of this year and the next 2 years for 1800, do you think that is unfair to existing members, i.e., why don't existing members get the benefit of the new members deal?

I'm all for new and innovative deals for golfers, but I do think that any such deals should be available for current and new members alike.

As much as clubs need new members, they also need to keep their existing members.

Alrite Chief

PRAF wrote: »

I'm all for new and innovative deals for golfers, but I do think that any such deals should be available for current and new members alike.

As much as clubs need new members, they also need to keep their existing members.

You would think so but just because the offer is open to new members doesn't mean the cost of running the club has come down. There is now a more limited pot of golfers so targeting members of other clubs is probably the hottest lead.

rrpc

Alrite Chief wrote: »

You would think so but just because the offer is open to new members doesn't mean the cost of running the club has come down. There is now a more limited pot of golfers so targeting members of other clubs is probably the hottest lead.

It's abit like buying the biggest, newest, hottest telly for a couple of grand only to find a year later that it's half that price

I mentioned Macreddin Golf Club in another thread and AFAIR, when it opened first, it was €8,000 to join and €1,500 a year. Now it's just €800 a year and no joining fee.

Alrite Chief

PRAF wrote: »

I'm all for new and innovative deals for golfers, but I do think that any such deals should be available for current and new members alike.

As much as clubs need new members, they also need to keep their existing members.

But the revenue they depend on going into the new financial is everyone's annual sub. If they lower it where is the shortfall gonna come from? So get as many members in this year on a new deal in the hope they will renew the following year bringing everyone's subs down.

onlyfinewine

Pdoghue wrote: »

What do people think of the following:

If a club has a subscription of 1000 Euros per year and they are offering new members a deal for the remainder of this year and the next 2 years for 1800, do you think that is unfair to existing members, i.e., why don't existing members get the benefit of the new members deal?

I'm not sure, but they have to do something. Some of the clubs will close and the remainder are scrabbling for income in whatever way they can to keep the ship afloat.

When the subs were increasing at a pace much greater than inflation and levy's were being put on new members to join,
the existing members benefited as the costs of running the clubs were reduced by the extra contributions of the new members.

Win some,lose some, perhaps!

Seves Three Iron

On a similar issue, I finally got the chance to join the club I always wanted to recently. It was always out of my price range and, for a while, wasn't even interested in taking new members as far as I know. Now they are biting the hand off me. Good for me, but not for golf generally I suppose.

I also heard a radio ad today where Ardee are offering membership from now until the end of next year for around 700 euros. I remember heading up there about 2006, when living nearby, and asking about membership only to be told it was something exhorbitant. Can't remember the figure but it was well out of my league.

rafared

Seves Three Iron wrote: »

On a similar issue, I finally got the chance to join the club I always wanted to recently. It was always out of my price range and, for a while, wasn't even interested in taking new members as far as I know. Now they are biting the hand off me. Good for me, but not for golf generally I suppose.

I also heard a radio ad today where Ardee are offering membership from now until the end of next year for around 700 euros. I remember heading up there about 2006, when living nearby, and asking about membership only to be told it was something exhorbitant. Can't remember the figure but it was well out of my league.

Ardee would have been 8K at its height. Have a good mate who is a member there. It did drop to 5k at one stage, 2k a couple of years ago and now basically the cost of your sub. Wet course in the winter though but a nice enough track all the same.

marleybrendan

I'm afraid its a sign of the times. All clubs are doing anything they can to generate new business and get new members. A typical example is Concra Wood in Monaghan. Only opened in the last few years the joining fee was 15k. Now you can get associate membership for around €800/900. I wonder how the original members feel about that.

rafared

marleybrendan wrote: »

I'm afraid its a sign of the times. All clubs are doing anything they can to generate new business and get new members. A typical example is Concra Wood in Monaghan. Only opened in the last few years the joining fee was 15k. Now you can get associate membership for around €800/900. I wonder how the original members feel about that.

I played plenty of times last year/season with guys who had paid 12/16K for share membership of Seapoint golf club. I had paid 1500 as an annual member. It used to worry me slightly when the conversation would inevitably drift to talk about membership because I was sure I would encounter some hostility or resentment. I have to say not once did it happen. Most guys were philosophical about the situation and realized that it was a consequence of the economic situation the club was in. Better me paying 1500 than the place closing or their subs going up to cover the costs.

PRAF

The joining fee is just a sign of the times. When there is so much over supply, the amount of clubs that can get away with that kind of 'hello money' has to reduce.

Seves Three Iron

I think the two most unfortunate cases I've heard regarding members paying over the odds are at Rathcore and Moyvalley. AFAIK, Rathcore was up on 15k at one stage, now 850 while Moyvalley may have been as high as 30k and, also, is less than a grand now.

I paid 5k to join my course five years ago and will be leaving shortly to join somewhere else. Big waste of money considering I handed over 10k to them all in, but what are ya gonna do. Was the sensible option at the time. Everybody has a sob story of losing value on something or other, car, house, investment. Golf membership is no different.

rafared

Seves Three Iron wrote: »

I think the two most unfortunate cases I've heard regarding members paying over the odds are at Rathcore and Moyvalley. AFAIK, Rathcore was up on 15k at one stage, now 850 while Moyvalley may have been as high as 30k and, also, is less than a grand now.

I paid 5k to join my course five years ago and will be leaving shortly to join somewhere else. Big waste of money considering I handed over 10k to them all in, but what are ya gonna do. Was the sensible option at the time. Everybody has a sob story of losing value on something or other, car, house, investment. Golf membership is no different.

I paid 5k myself to join a club 7 years ago. It was the cheapest option around at the time. Let that go nearly two years ago and joined as an annual member.

PRAF

Seves Three Iron wrote: »

I think the two most unfortunate cases I've heard regarding members paying over the odds are at Rathcore and Moyvalley. AFAIK, Rathcore was up on 15k at one stage, now 850 while Moyvalley may have been as high as 30k and, also, is less than a grand now.

I paid 5k to join my course five years ago and will be leaving shortly to join somewhere else. Big waste of money considering I handed over 10k to them all in, but what are ya gonna do. Was the sensible option at the time. Everybody has a sob story of losing value on something or other, car, house, investment. Golf membership is no different.

Yep, I bought a car for 21k in 2008, thought I got a great deal. In 2009 it was worth no more than 10k. Membership values, like any other asset, go down in recessions.

I think a lot of clubs rode the wave of a booming economy on the way up. Continually getting more members in who were paying extortionate joining fees was actually covering up the fact that the clubs were being run in an unsustainable way. When total subs is less than total expenditure, you are in trouble.

It's actually amazing that some clubs are persisting with massive joining fees. Some of them are just delusional.

As well as facing a shrinking market, clubs are also going to start facing a demographic problem in the coming years. We'll have more ordinary full members going into the seniors bracket and paying lower subs. Father time will ensure that some members end up in the big golf course in the sky.

Unfortunately, a lot of the next generation of Irish club golfers have been forced to emigrate. Meanwhile the generation that lost out on membership due to those high joining fees are stuck with expensive mortgages, higher taxes, less disposable income etc.

I think there is no other alternative except for a lot of clubs closing down in the next 5 years.

GreeBo

PRAF wrote: »

As well as facing a shrinking market, clubs are also going to start facing a demographic problem in the coming years. We'll have more ordinary full members going into the seniors bracket and paying lower subs. Father time will ensure that some members end up in the big golf course in the sky.

Actually I think we will see an increase in the reduction/removal of discounts for senior members. Already a large number of Dublin clubs have reduced the discount for these members and I only see this going one way.
Anyways, its the OAP's who have all the cash in Ireland at the moment!

donalg1

Without new members the club could close which would be far worse for existing members. Maybe a happy median could be found

slave1

Try Athlone, nearly €800 for existing members and this year new members were paying €375.

rrpc

donalg1 wrote: »

Without new members the club could close which would be far worse for existing members. Maybe a happy median could be found

The way I see it is that every new member; even if they're paying a lower sub than I did originally, is contributing something to the facilities, upkeep and future viability of the club.

Far worse if the club closed and all the money I'd spent was for nothing.

Dr_Colossus

slave1 wrote: »

Try Athlone, nearly €800 for existing members and this year new members were paying €375.

That's just idiotic, way too much disparity in price which is only going to force existing members to leave and try rejoin. You sure that's correct and the €375 new member rate isn't a 3 or 5 day membership type deal?

By all means have an introductory member discount of up to 10% since all clubs need new members to survive but clubs need to set their priorities and retain their existing members offering them comparable rates. With expensive joining fees generally a thing of the past golfers are more flexible and mobile in terms of obtaining value for money.

It should be much easier for a club retain an existing member than entice a new one. In the case of Athlone above new members will likely join given the discount but how many of them will stay for the second year when their subs increase 213% in the second year? Also how many existing members will stay given that new members have the same facilities to hand for less than half price, I know I wouldn't be too keen on staying.

mike12

Dr_Colossus wrote: »

That's just idiotic, way too much disparity in price which is only going to force existing members to leave and try rejoin. You sure that's correct and the €375 new member rate isn't a 3 or 5 day membership type deal?

By all means have an introductory member discount of up to 10% since all clubs need new members to survive but clubs need to set their priorities and retain their existing members offering them comparable rates. With expensive joining fees generally a thing of the past golfers are more flexible and mobile in terms of obtaining value for money.

It should be much easier for a club retain an existing member than entice a new one. In the case of Athlone above new members will likely join given the discount but how many of them will stay for the second year when their subs increase 213% in the second year? Also how many existing members will stay given that new members have the same facilities to hand for less than half price, I know I wouldn't be too keen on staying.

A lot of clubs down the country have a starters membership which is less than half the full, if you don't play golf there is no way you are handing over 800 to see if you like it where them may get 20 people every year joining if 5/6 of them stay on and pay the full the next year then happy days.
Mike

donalg1

PRAF wrote: »

Yep, I bought a car for 21k in 2008, thought I got a great deal. In 2009 it was worth no more than 10k. Membership values, like any other asset, go down in recessions.

I think a lot of clubs rode the wave of a booming economy on the way up. Continually getting more members in who were paying extortionate joining fees was actually covering up the fact that the clubs were being run in an unsustainable way. When total subs is less than total expenditure, you are in trouble.

It's actually amazing that some clubs are persisting with massive joining fees. Some of them are just delusional.

As well as facing a shrinking market, clubs are also going to start facing a demographic problem in the coming years. We'll have more ordinary full members going into the seniors bracket and paying lower subs. Father time will ensure that some members end up in the big golf course in the sky.

Unfortunately, a lot of the next generation of Irish club golfers have been forced to emigrate. Meanwhile the generation that lost out on membership due to those high joining fees are stuck with expensive mortgages, higher taxes, less disposable income etc.

I think there is no other alternative except for a lot of clubs closing down in the next 5 years.

I was a junior member in a club near me lovely course, but when I turned 18 I just couldnt afford the full membership so had to leave, I would love to go back there now and join up but they are still looking for the joining levy. The annual fee is €705, plus €100 for the bar or something and the levy is €2,820 or 4 years membership, but if this is paid up front its €2,115 or 3 years. The levy itself can be paid over 5 years but still this is crazy money about €1,350 per year for 5 years!! I mean who has that kind of money today.

Now there are 2 other clubs near me, not bad courses by any means but not on the level of this other one, maybe I am biased because I was there previously but I am sure I am not the only one here to think this. The other 2 clubs have no levy and are €795 and €650 for the year. If I am going to join one in the future it will have to be one of these probably the €650, my wife will probably join too.

I was thinking of going to the first club and talking to them and telling them I would love to join, I was a junior member, if I join my wife will probably join but I cant pay the joining levy. I was wondering what my chances of getting away with this would be, I reckon I would have a pretty good chance. I mean if I join one of the other two they get my money each year, my wifes money each year, and then whatever else we spend in the pro shop, bar or even just on the trolleys when going to play. And also green fees of friends when they come to play with me.

To me it makes perfect sense that they let me join without the levy, however the fact they still have the levy kinda shows they arent too big into sensible thinking.

charlieIRL

Dr_Colossus wrote: »

That's just idiotic, way too much disparity in price which is only going to force existing members to leave and try rejoin. You sure that's correct and the €375 new member rate isn't a 3 or 5 day membership type deal?

Its true. It was for new members only and limited if you joind before April. (Jan - Dec golf year)

It is for full membership too.

mike12

donalg1 wrote: »

I was a junior member in a club near me lovely course, but when I turned 18 I just couldnt afford the full membership so had to leave, I would love to go back there now and join up but they are still looking for the joining levy. The annual fee is €705, plus €100 for the bar or something and the levy is €2,820 or 4 years membership, but if this is paid up front its €2,115 or 3 years. The levy itself can be paid over 5 years but still this is crazy money about €1,350 per year for 5 years!! I mean who has that kind of money today.

Now there are 2 other clubs near me, not bad courses by any means but not on the level of this other one, maybe I am biased because I was there previously but I am sure I am not the only one here to think this. The other 2 clubs have no levy and are €795 and €650 for the year. If I am going to join one in the future it will have to be one of these probably the €650, my wife will probably join too.

I was thinking of going to the first club and talking to them and telling them I would love to join, I was a junior member, if I join my wife will probably join but I cant pay the joining levy. I was wondering what my chances of getting away with this would be, I reckon I would have a pretty good chance. I mean if I join one of the other two they get my money each year, my wifes money each year, and then whatever else we spend in the pro shop, bar or even just on the trolleys when going to play. And also green fees of friends when they come to play with me.

To me it makes perfect sense that they let me join without the levy, however the fact they still have the levy kinda shows they arent too big into sensible thinking.

No harm in trying, there are 4 of us thinking of moving club and we intend to ask if there would be any chance of a reduction for the first year for 4 new members. If clubs are desperate for new members they are much better off getting the 1400 a year off yourself and the wife rather than zero if ye head down the road, if they don't need the new members then they will just say no.
Mike

donalg1

mike12 wrote: »

No harm in trying, there are 4 of us thinking of moving club and we intend to ask if there would be any chance of a reduction for the first year for 4 new members. If clubs are desperate for new members they are much better off getting the 1400 a year off yourself and the wife rather than zero if ye head down the road, if they don't need the new members then they will just say no.
Mike

Thats my thinking exactly, and I reckon they are looking for new members too, they used to only accept them in January and I was told when I was speaking to them that they are now accepting them any time at all. And a few years ago it was almost impossible to get into this club the waiting list was massive yet now if I had the money I could sign up today.