Why do so many Evangelical Christians have a "pro Israel" political viewpoint?

Seaneh

When the reality is that, by and large, Christianity is just as hated by Israeli's as Islam and every other now-jewish faith?

It doesn't seem to be reported in the west a lot, no idea why :rolleyes:, but the reality is (and I've been hearing this for a few years now from Christian's in northern Israel) that Christianity is being increasingly targeted Jewish zealots in Israel with Christian places of worship being defaced, christians being attacked and the national press publishing bizzare anti-christian nonsense.


Just one exaple:
http://rt.com/news/catholics-christian-vandalism-hate-598/

It's got to the stage where the local clergy have had to appeal to the international media for protection.



Why is is that so many Evangelical's seem to blindly support the Israeli state (and not just American Evangelicals either), even donating massive amounts of money to organisations which move jews from Europe and the US to Israel and into settlements in the old city in Jerusalem the rest of the westbank and the Gaza strip to help displace the Arab (often Christian as well as Islamic) indigenous population?


Do they not realise that the Zionists dispise them (Christians) just as much as they dispise Islam?

lmaopml

Seaneh wrote: »

When the reality is that, by and large, Christianity is just as hated by Israeli's as Islam and every other now-jewish faith?

It doesn't seem to be reported in the west a lot, no idea why :rolleyes:, but the reality is (and I've been hearing this for a few years now from Christian's in northern Israel) that Christianity is being increasingly targeted Jewish zealots in Israel with Christian places of worship being defaced, christians being attacked and the national press publishing bizzare anti-christian nonsense.


Just one exaple:
http://rt.com/news/catholics-christian-vandalism-hate-598/

It's got to the stage where the local clergy have had to appeal to the international media for protection.



Why is is that so many Evangelical's seem to blindly support the Israeli state (and not just American Evangelicals either), even donating massive amounts of money to organisations which move jews from Europe and the US to Israel and into settlements in the old city in Jerusalem the rest of the westbank and the Gaza strip to help displace the Arab (often Christian as well as Islamic) indigenous population?


Do they not realise that the Zionists dispise them (Christians) just as much as they dispise Islam?

Yes, it's a sad state of affairs, but then again, it must be for Isreal too - every time they look at the place of where the Temple was, they see a Moslem mosque. It must be gratifying for Moslems to hold on to it - We're not meant to despise them at all, or deride them, or bow either...just 'live' and try to be fair, and trust is part of faith.

I guess one has to look on it from different vantage points - Christians are in a unique position that while Jerusalem is sacred to us, it's only so many feet by so many feet - it can't contain Christ or the Gospel.

JimiTime

Seaneh wrote: »

When the reality is that, by and large, Christianity is just as hated by Israeli's as Islam and every other now-jewish faith?

It doesn't seem to be reported in the west a lot, no idea why :rolleyes:, but the reality is (and I've been hearing this for a few years now from Christian's in northern Israel) that Christianity is being increasingly targeted Jewish zealots in Israel with Christian places of worship being defaced, christians being attacked and the national press publishing bizzare anti-christian nonsense.


Just one exaple:
http://rt.com/news/catholics-christian-vandalism-hate-598/

It's got to the stage where the local clergy have had to appeal to the international media for protection.



Why is is that so many Evangelical's seem to blindly support the Israeli state (and not just American Evangelicals either), even donating massive amounts of money to organisations which move jews from Europe and the US to Israel and into settlements in the old city in Jerusalem the rest of the westbank and the Gaza strip to help displace the Arab (often Christian as well as Islamic) indigenous population?


Do they not realise that the Zionists dispise them (Christians) just as much as they dispise Islam?

I think its down to them believing that there is prophetic significance to the nation of Israel and the Jewish people. I also think many see humbling themselves in Israel, acts as a witness to the Jewish people that it is their messiah that we worship, and to show that the nations have been blessed through Israel. I haven't looked into the prophetic significance enough, so I can't say if they are right or not in terms of the modern state of Israel being significant biblically or not.

On another note, I don't see the relevance in terms of hardcore Jews targeting Christians. From what I've read, its not about some Jews hating Christians etc, but rather Christians reaching out, albeit in a rather special concentrated way, to the Jewish people. Some probably see it in terms of political war, i.e. Lets get together to get the muslims kind of thing, but from the sources I've read, many Christians recognise the legacy of Israel and want to go after her, and help her realise that their messiah has come and has blessed all the nations.

I haven't looked into his Israel side of things much, but check out:

www.askdrbrown.org

He even responds to emails. His shows are great, and I think its every Thursday or Friday, his show is dedicated to questions concerning Israel. I love the guy myself, and find him one of the most valuable Christian resources on the net. Check it out.

lmaopml

Jimi raises a good point in relation to the prophetic message of Isreal and the Messiah of Isreal as opposed to the view of Christianity and indeed how Moslems see it...in other words the 'New Jerusalem' - or 'Kingdom of God' as Christians most likely understand.

The Holy City is important no doubt, from a Christian perspective, rightly or wrongly so in history, but not half as important as the Gospel and the hearts of those who are conformed to Christ. So the message differs in this regard.

The truth in so far as I can see it is that the Tribes are scattered among the nations - and no amount of forcing them will unite them - he'll do it in His good time, and far be it from anybody to claim that being grafted in is not good.

JimiTime

lmaopml wrote: »

Jimi raises a good point in relation to the prophetic message of Isreal and the Messiah of Isreal as opposed to the view of Christianity and indeed how Moslems see it...in other words the 'New Jerusalem' - or 'Kingdom of God' as Christians most likely understand.

I don't think they see it as the 'New Jerusalem'. They still see that as a spiritual reference for the time after Armageddon. I've heard the term, regathering, and phrases like 'They will look to the one they pierced'. Ambiguous I know, sorry, but its a topic I keep putting on the long finger and just get snippets here and there. From what I gather, they believe that prophecy indicates The Jews being regathered to the land of their forefathers, and turning to Yeshua as their Messiah.

The truth in so far as I can see it is that the Tribes are scattered among the nations - and no amount of forcing them will unite them - he'll do it in His good time, and far be it from anybody to claim that being grafted in is not good.

I have seen that argument made, and it makes sense at face value. However, I've also seen it countered with a very valid point. That being, God asked us as Christians to spread the Gospel message. He didn't just say, I'll get to everyone myself in time etc. While te gathering back to Israel may be God direced (Or not)The great commission is OUR task as followers of Jesus.

lmaopml

JimiTime wrote: »

I don't think they see it as the 'New Jerusalem'. They still see that as a spiritual reference for the time after Armageddon. I've heard the term, regathering, and phrases like 'They will look to the one they pierced'. Ambiguous I know, sorry, but its a topic I keep putting on the long finger and just get snippets here and there. From what I gather, they believe that prophecy indicates The Jews being regathered to the land of their forefathers, and turning to Yeshua as their Messiah.

Well that's just it, Isreal had King David and right from the beginning of anointing a 'King' God didn't really seem to aprove of the honour granted to a mere human being. Hence Scripture tells the tale of the humble Kings, and the not so humble Kings. It's a long tale from the first need for a King and from King David to Jesus Christ..

They're waiting still for a Messiah - to enter through the Golden Gates that Christ entered on a Donkey and a Colt two thousand years ago - The significance of both to my mind is Old and New Covenant. The Golden Gate is now destroyed and a new Gate is there that is boarded up...lol...there is even a grave yard in front of it to protect it. He already passed through though..that's the difference!!

I have seen that argument made, and it makes sense at face value. However, I've also seen it countered with a very valid point. That being, God asked us as Christians to spread the Gospel message. He didn't just say, I'll get to everyone myself in time etc. While te gathering back to Israel may be God direced (Or not)The great commission is OUR task as followers of Jesus.

Of course I don't mean that the Gospel and evangelising is not our calling, that's part of the Gospel, the Gospel is the 'Good News' and the 'Good News' is a 'New Covenant' - that's what Jesus mentions during Passover celebration when when he instituted the 'Last Supper' - it's only through the Passover sacrifice, that the Apostles understood the New Covenant at all ( I'm a Bible believing, Evangelic, Roman Catholic ) but forcing the nation of Isreal to unite and waiting on dooms day is not exactly Christian. We don't control God, he controls us, and it's in his time not ours, no matter the polical whim or signs that people read into, it's best to just be a 'Christian' and live and spread as best one knows how, either by word or deed, the Gospel.

Benny_Cake

Seaneh wrote: »

When the reality is that, by and large, Christianity is just as hated by Israeli's as Islam and every other now-jewish faith?

It doesn't seem to be reported in the west a lot, no idea why :rolleyes:, but the reality is (and I've been hearing this for a few years now from Christian's in northern Israel) that Christianity is being increasingly targeted Jewish zealots in Israel with Christian places of worship being defaced, christians being attacked and the national press publishing bizzare anti-christian nonsense.

It's a small but vocal segment of Israeli society, I certainly wouldn't say that the majority of Israeli Jews hate Christians or Christianity. There was a Panorama documentary this week about the "Hilltop Youth", settler kids who vandalise mosques and graffiti tag Arab towns. Depressing...unfortunately Israeli politics has moved quite significantly to the right, the left and the traditional "peace camp" don't seem to be having an impact in the same way they used to.

Seaneh wrote: »

Why is is that so many Evangelical's seem to blindly support the Israeli state (and not just American Evangelicals either), even donating massive amounts of money to organisations which move jews from Europe and the US to Israel and into settlements in the old city in Jerusalem the rest of the westbank and the Gaza strip to help displace the Arab (often Christian as well as Islamic) indigenous population?

If you have Netflix, you should watch a documentary called "Waiting for Armageddon" about the Christian Zionist movement in the US. These people talk a great deal about how much they love the Jewish people, but they essentially view Jews as little more than bait which will bring about the second coming. If some of what they wanted came about - destroying the Dome of the Rock and Al Aqsa mosque to rebuild the Jerusalem Temple - it would undoubtedly trigger a major war with millions of lives at risk. Of course most Jews don't want or don't care about a new Temple.

PDN

A number of Evangelicals seem unable to distinguish between praying for the peace of Jerusalem (a biblical injunction) and uncritically supporting all the activities of the nation-State of Israel.

The Israeli authorities are happy to exploit this. I was part of a team of pastors that visited Israel some years ago, and the Israeli government sent some pretty high-powered political figures to woo us and sell us their side of the story when it came to the Palestinian conflict.

homer911

Funny, I've just been reading the opening chapters of Nehemiah..

JimiTime

homer911 wrote: »

Funny, I've just been reading the opening chapters of Nehemiah..

Homer you tease, I'm going to have to read Nehemiah now to get the reference:) Good method of getting folk to dust off their bibles

ehcocmeo

Seaneh wrote: »

Why is is that so many Evangelical's seem to blindly support the Israeli state (and not just American Evangelicals either), even donating massive amounts of money to organisations which move jews from Europe and the US to Israel and into settlements in the old city in Jerusalem the rest of the westbank and the Gaza strip to help displace the Arab (often Christian as well as Islamic) indigenous population?


Do they not realise that the Zionists dispise them (Christians) just as much as they dispise Islam?

1. There are no Jewish settlements in Gaza any more.
2. Most of the Settlements in the West Bank are on deserted areas where there was no prior inhabitants.
3. Arabs sometimes will move from the lands when offered financial reward for doing so.

Lastly.. Indigenous Population? there really is no other land that Jews can call home other and Israel. It still remains the promised land (Ref JPII)

Lucy8080

there is an idea within judaism , which asserts, that the Jewish diaspora should stay dispersed until their messiah returns .

but i guess that's a religious question as to whether its biblically sound or not.

Or, maybe a question of faith or both!

santing

Politically it makes sense to be "pro-Israel" it is the only western ally in an hostile middle east. It is also the only democracy with lots of internal and external dissidents residing in the country!
From a Christian viewpoint, if we belief in the (soon) returning Messiah, we know that the land and people will go through another "holocaust" that will be more severe than anything they have known in the past, "the day of Jacobs trouble." "Even if the number of the Israelites is as the sand of the sea, only a handful will be saved." So as an Evangelical to invest in this country is not a wise investment! My support and prayer are with those however who want to bring the peace of Christ (or Messiah) to the people of Israel who do not know Him. If they do this through humanitary aid, I would even support that. After all, even Israel needs a revival before the coming of the Messiah!

Regarding the idea that the diaspora should stay until the coming of the Messiah, numerous prophecies tell that God will bring His people back. That's probably the foundation for this view.

belcampprisoner

Armageddon

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/1018-04.htm

Lucy8080

God will bring his people back!

Back to where?

ButtimersLaw

What surprises me is the amount of people who have very strong views either way about whether its the Israeli's fault or the Palestinian's fault and so on.

To me it's just another example of how religion poisons everything it touches, and how both sides continue to teach the next generation that their religion is the only right one, and how their religion makes it ok to torture/terrorise/bomb/kill others who don't share their beliefs.

Greaney

The previous posters have explained some of the 'in's and out's' very well here, so I guess I'll just add that some of todays Evangelical Christians seem to have made the same mistake as many Jews did two thousand years ago who were expecting a political Messiah. They mistake Gods Kingdom with an actual worldly dominion and not a kingdom of the heart. They look to the New Jerusalem being in the same location as the old Jerusalem. What can I say, they think God needs a helping hand

Brown Bomber

Seaneh wrote: »

Why is is that so many Evangelical's seem to blindly support the Israeli state (and not just American Evangelicals either

I believe the Schofield Bible has something to do with it. Intertwined and perhaps may interest you is that there was a conference in Washington this week chaired by ex-CIA man Phil Giraldi addressing "Christian Zionism and Islamophobia"

There is a good interview with Giraldi here: http://scotthorton.org/2012/10/22/102212-philip-giraldi/

Jan Hus

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I believe the Schofield Bible has something to do with it. Intertwined and perhaps may interest you is that there was a conference in Washington this week chaired by ex-CIA man Phil Giraldi addressing "Christian Zionism and Islamophobia"

There is a good interview with Giraldi here: http://scotthorton.org/2012/10/22/102212-philip-giraldi/

I, speaking personally, am an evangelical. All evangelicals do not unilaterally support Israel. The position of many US evangelicals is mixed up with a rather weird theological opinion named dispensationalism. This is a rigid prophetic doctrine involving a complicated exposition of Revelation and Daniel (and yes, the Schofield Bible is involved in the story). In my view it has its merits but violates the Biblical doctrine of not knowing the time. Moreover it ascribes the position of Antichrist to a single man rather than to the world-system. It originated here in Ireland around the year 1900, courtesy of member of the Brethren named Darby (his home was Wicklow). He later went to the US where he had two great publicisers - one of them named Schofield. The doctrine supports Israel in that it views the formation of Israel as God's "supersign" for the end-times. Moreover it sees the continuation of the Abrahamic Covenant as through the Jews still, not the Christians. (Were this truly the case, the Bible would be invalid as it says in Psalms that David would never lack a successor on his throne. Unless that successor was Christ, there would be a 2000 year gap unattested for.) This would give them cause to see the land of Israel as God's promise to the Jews.

The immense popularity of the doctrine lies in the fact that it anticipated the rise of Israel in a period when Jewish Zionism was just getting off the ground. It got mixed up in politics during Reagan's time - when evangelicals began their swap from left to right over the abortion issue.

It misses the point of Christianity. Christianity is a personal relationship with God, not arguing over arcane doctrines - being born again. It is about converting infidels like papists, Mohammedans, Russelittes, The Bible warns about such thins in Hebrews saying:

Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein

Benny_Cake

Jan Hus wrote: »

I, speaking personally, am an evangelical. All evangelicals do not unilaterally support Israel. The position of many US evangelicals is mixed up with a rather weird theological opinion named dispensationalism. This is a rigid prophetic doctrine involving a complicated exposition of Revelation and Daniel (and yes, the Schofield Bible is involved in the story). In my view it has its merits but violates the Biblical doctrine of not knowing the time. Moreover it ascribes the position of Antichrist to a single man rather than to the world-system. It originated here in Ireland around the year 1900, courtesy of member of the Brethren named Darby (his home was Wicklow). He later went to the US where he had two great publicisers - one of them named Schofield. The doctrine supports Israel in that it views the formation of Israel as God's "supersign" for the end-times. Moreover it sees the continuation of the Abrahamic Covenant as through the Jews still, not the Christians. (Were this truly the case, the Bible would be invalid as it says in Psalms that David would never lack a successor on his throne. Unless that successor was Christ, there would be a 2000 year gap unattested for.) This would give them cause to see the land of Israel as God's promise to the Jews.

The immense popularity of the doctrine lies in the fact that it anticipated the rise of Israel in a period when Jewish Zionism was just getting off the ground. It got mixed up in politics during Reagan's time - when evangelicals began their swap from left to right over the abortion issue.

It misses the point of Christianity. Christianity is a personal relationship with God, not arguing over arcane doctrines - being born again. It is about converting infidels like papists, Mohammedans, Russelittes, The Bible warns about such thins in Hebrews saying:

Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein

See the highlighted text. Sectarian name-calling will not be tolerated here. If you wish to discuss doctrinal differences between Protestants / evangelical Christians and Catholics, you can do so on the megathread.

Greaney

Jan Hus wrote: »

I, speaking personally, am an evangelical. All evangelicals do not unilaterally support Israel. The position of many US evangelicals is mixed up with a rather weird theological opinion named dispensationalism. This is a rigid prophetic doctrine involving a complicated exposition of Revelation and Daniel (and yes, the Schofield Bible is involved in the story). In my view it has its merits but violates the Biblical doctrine of not knowing the time. Moreover it ascribes the position of Antichrist to a single man rather than to the world-system. It originated here in Ireland around the year 1900, courtesy of member of the Brethren named Darby (his home was Wicklow). He later went to the US where he had two great publicisers - one of them named Schofield. The doctrine supports Israel in that it views the formation of Israel as God's "supersign" for the end-times. Moreover it sees the continuation of the Abrahamic Covenant as through the Jews still, not the Christians. (Were this truly the case, the Bible would be invalid as it says in Psalms that David would never lack a successor on his throne. Unless that successor was Christ, there would be a 2000 year gap unattested for.) This would give them cause to see the land of Israel as God's promise to the Jews.

Thanks for the explaination, I had thought it was a bit of an American quirk too

gerbilgranny

Benny_Cake wrote: »

See the highlighted text. Sectarian name-calling will not be tolerated here. If you wish to discuss doctrinal differences between Protestants / evangelical Christians and Catholics, you can do so on the megathread.

I think the board member was refering to the views of one branch of evangelical Christianity -the board member doesn't approve of the terms used, but they were giving us an example of the extreme stuff said by others?

Siuin

Seaneh wrote: »

When the reality is that, by and large, Christianity is just as hated by Israeli's as Islam and every other now-jewish faith?

Would love to hear where you're getting your facts from, because as someone who has lived in Israel, I can most certainly tell you that this is not the case.

Seaneh wrote: »

It doesn't seem to be reported in the west a lot, no idea why :rolleyes:, but the reality is (and I've been hearing this for a few years now from Christian's in northern Israel) that Christianity is being increasingly targeted Jewish zealots in Israel with Christian places of worship being defaced, christians being attacked and the national press publishing bizzare anti-christian nonsense.

I find it extremely amusing that you should target Israel of all countries in the Middle East for apparently persecuting Christians when the fact is that Christians of every single other Middle Eastern country receive far, far worse treatment. I've met Israeli Christians who are very happy with their quality of life in Israel, who serve in the army and are very much aware that as Arab Christians they are very fortunate to live in Israel, one of the extremely few countries where they can practice their religion without fear of being attacked by the Muslim population.

Seaneh wrote: »

Why is is that so many Evangelical's seem to blindly support the Israeli state (and not just American Evangelicals either), even donating massive amounts of money to organisations which move jews from Europe and the US to Israel and into settlements in the old city in Jerusalem the rest of the westbank and the Gaza strip to help displace the Arab (often Christian as well as Islamic) indigenous population?

So in order to be a member of the 'indigenous population' one must be Christian or Muslim, is it? That's very odd, seeing as how there has always been a Jewish presence in the Holy Land for over 2,000 years.

Seaneh, you may want to get a new hobby rather than Israel-bashing before you embarrass yourself further.

Seaneh

Siuin wrote: »

Would love to hear where you're getting your facts from, because as someone who has lived in Israel, I can most certainly tell you that this is not the case.


I find it extremely amusing that you should target Israel of all countries in the Middle East for apparently persecuting Christians when the fact is that Christians of every single other Middle Eastern country receive far, far worse treatment. I've met Israeli Christians who are very happy with their quality of life in Israel, who serve in the army and are very much aware that as Arab Christians they are very fortunate to live in Israel, one of the extremely few countries where they can practice their religion without fear of being attacked by the Muslim population.


So in order to be a member of the 'indigenous population' one must be Christian or Muslim, is it? That's very odd, seeing as how there has always been a Jewish presence in the Holy Land for over 2,000 years.

Seaneh, you may want to get a new hobby rather than Israel-bashing before you embarrass yourself further.

I do not have a hobby of Israel bashing. There have always been Jews in Palestine, I am well aware of that, there have also always been muslims, catholics and Coptic and other Orthodox churches, and they got along pretty well until a land grab in the 40's by Europeans and Americans who had never been to the middle east before and had mostly been living in europe and the us for tens of generations.

There have been increasing cases of churches, schools and homes of christians and christian groups in Israel and in occupied Palestine land being attacked by supporter of the current psychotic government of Israel.

Christian persecution in other arab nations is irrelevant in this thread and is already well documented by both mainstream media in the west and groups like Voice of The Martyrs, but persecution of Christian in Israel is rarely reported, even by groups like VoTM. I find it strange.

Then you have the shameful and frankly disturbing treatment of Arab Jews by the european/american blow in.

A lot of these Arab jews being forced to migrate in the 60's and 70's to Israel from surrounding countries where they were perfectly accepted in their communities centuries before, because of the subversive actions of the Israeli government at the time and zionist groups.

It's all a farce.

Israel and specifically the zionist groups, are no friend of Christianity, they are using certain evangelical groups and churches in the US and Europe as nothing more than "useful idiots" and taking their money to import yet more european and american jews to plant in occupied palestine lads and build more settlements.

It's disgusting.

Siuin

Seaneh wrote: »

I do not have a hobby of Israel bashing. There have always been Jews in Palestine, I am well aware of that, there have also always been muslims, catholics and Coptic and other Orthodox churches, and they got along pretty well until a land grab in the 40's by Europeans and Americans who had never been to the middle east before and had mostly been living in europe and the us for tens of generations.

The Americans may have been invovled in the voting of whether to recognise Israel, but they were certainly not grabbing any land. Also, it's very misleading that you would refer to it as a 'land grab' when the fact is that the Jewish Agency had been purchasing substantial areas of land well before the outbreak of WWII. And 'get along pretty well'? You're kinda glossing over incidents such as the 1929 Hebron Massacre there- an incident which occured long before the State of Israel was founded. All was certainly not rosy in the garden prior to the establishment of Israel. If you want to be pissed off with someone, look no further than the disgusting Europeans who partook in the slaughter of 6 million Jews and made life in Europe so unbearable that they those who did survive could never return to their birthplaces. I'm also curious as to your feelings regarding the millions of Jews driven from Arab countries? They have equally been displaced, but I hear no cries of ethnic cleansing there. Seems people are very selective when it comes to what they find morally aborrent.

Seaneh wrote: »

There have been increasing cases of churches, schools and homes of christians and christian groups in Israel and in occupied Palestine land being attacked by supporter of the current psychotic government of Israel.

Christian persecution in other arab nations is irrelevant in this thread and is already well documented by both mainstream media in the west and groups like Voice of The Martyrs, but persecution of Christian in Israel is rarely reported, even by groups like VoTM. I find it strange.

I actually really disagree with your statement that Arab persecution of Christians is well documented- it really isn't, and doesn't receive anything close to the amount of coverage it warrants. Of course, it's always more popular to bitch about the Jews, since they're not going to issue a fatwa to behead you if you criticise them :rolleyes: Israel is rarely reported because the incidents of discrimination are nowhere even close to that of what goes on in the surrounding Arab countries.

Seaneh wrote: »

Then you have the shameful and frankly disturbing treatment of Arab Jews by the european/american blow in.

A lot of these Arab jews being forced to migrate in the 60's and 70's to Israel from surrounding countries where they were perfectly accepted in their communities centuries before, because of the subversive actions of the Israeli government at the time and zionist groups.

It's all a farce.

... come again?? The Arab Jews were having a jolly ole time before the evil Zionists stole them from their homeland is it? That's one of the stupidest things I've heard in a long time. The Jews were EXPELLED from Egypt and were treated as second class citizens (dhimmis) under Arab regimes. Life was made unbearable for them. The Israeli government didn't force anyone to come to Israel- if anything, the new immigrants put a strain on Israel because of the vast cultural differences, but like all new waves of immigrants they integrated and are as Israeli as anyone else. I have many Israeli friends of Yemenite backgrounds and there's no way in hell they'd ever wish to return to a backwards shíthole like that.

Seaneh wrote: »

Israel and specifically the zionist groups, are no friend of Christianity, they are using certain evangelical groups and churches in the US and Europe as nothing more than "useful idiots" and taking their money to import yet more european and american jews to plant in occupied palestine lads and build more settlements.

It's disgusting.

I've never encountered strong feelings of either love or hate towards Christians among Zionist groups. It's very understandable if bad feelings may exist given that Christians were the ones who nearly wiped them off the map less than 80 years ago! The vast majority of Evangelical groups which do support Israel only do so out of self interest anyway- they think it will herald the return of the Messiah. It's not a matter of loving Jews, so why should Jews lick their boots for supporting them? I don't agree with illegal settlement in the West Bank, but it appears from earlier in your post that when you're talking about 'occupied Palestine' you're referring to the whole of Israel. Short of showing you a map, there's not much more I can do for you.

If you want to really see something disgusting, take a look at what's happening in Syria where a government is conducting the wholesale slaughter of its civilian population. But of course, you want to pick on Jews since it really wasn't enough to drive them out of Europe, you need to follow them to the Middle East too and lecture the same people who endured genocide at the hands of Europeans on human rights. Pity Europe only decided to develop a conscience in recent years, eh?

Seaneh

Siuin wrote: »

The Americans may have been invovled in the voting of whether to recognise Israel, but they were certainly not grabbing any land. Also, it's very misleading that you would refer to it as a 'land grab' when the fact is that the Jewish Agency had been purchasing substantial areas of land well before the outbreak of WWII. And 'get along pretty well'? You're kinda glossing over incidents such as the 1929 Hebron Massacre there- an incident which occured long before the State of Israel was founded. All was certainly not rosy in the garden prior to the establishment of Israel. If you want to be pissed off with someone, look no further than the disgusting Europeans who partook in the slaughter of 6 million Jews and made life in Europe so unbearable that they those who did survive could never return to their birthplaces. I'm also curious as to your feelings regarding the millions of Jews driven from Arab countries? They have equally been displaced, but I hear no cries of ethnic cleansing there. Seems people are very selective when it comes to what they find morally aborrent.


I actually really disagree with your statement that Arab persecution of Christians is well documented- it really isn't, and doesn't receive anything close to the amount of coverage it warrants. Of course, it's always more popular to bitch about the Jews, since they're not going to issue a fatwa to behead you if you criticise them :rolleyes: Israel is rarely reported because the incidents of discrimination are nowhere even close to that of what goes on in the surrounding Arab countries.


... come again?? The Arab Jews were having a jolly ole time before the evil Zionists stole them from their homeland is it? That's one of the stupidest things I've heard in a long time. The Jews were EXPELLED from Egypt and were treated as second class citizens (dhimmis) under Arab regimes. Life was made unbearable for them. The Israeli government didn't force anyone to come to Israel- if anything, the new immigrants put a strain on Israel because of the vast cultural differences, but like all new waves of immigrants they integrated and are as Israeli as anyone else. I have many Israeli friends of Yemenite backgrounds and there's no way in hell they'd ever wish to return to a backwards shíthole like that.


I've never encountered strong feelings of either love or hate towards Christians among Zionist groups. It's very understandable if bad feelings may exist given that Christians were the ones who nearly wiped them off the map less than 80 years ago! The vast majority of Evangelical groups which do support Israel only do so out of self interest anyway- they think it will herald the return of the Messiah. It's not a matter of loving Jews, so why should Jews lick their boots for supporting them? I don't agree with illegal settlement in the West Bank, but it appears from earlier in your post that when you're talking about 'occupied Palestine' you're referring to the whole of Israel. Short of showing you a map, there's not much more I can do for you.

If you want to really see something disgusting, take a look at what's happening in Syria where a government is conducting the wholesale slaughter of its civilian population. But of course, you want to pick on Jews since it really wasn't enough to drive them out of Europe, you need to follow them to the Middle East too and lecture the same people who endured genocide at the hands of Europeans on human rights. Pity Europe only decided to develop a conscience in recent years, eh?

Yes, that's it, I along with everyone else who dares questions the actions of the Israeli government and zionist groups is an anti-semite and wants nothing more than the death of every jew on earth, and we should all stand by and applaud while they illegally occupy palestine lads, treat their own arab citizens as second class citizens and no nothing to stop rampaging mobs of foriegners from attacking Christian and Muslim communities in both Israel and occupied palestine.


Atleast, from looking at your previous posts, that's how you view anyone who disagrees with you.

Usual nonsense.

Siuin

Seaneh wrote: »

Yes, that's it, I along with everyone else who dares questions the actions of the Israeli government and zionist groups is an anti-semite and wants nothing more than the death of every jew on earth, and we should all stand by and applaud while they illegally occupy palestine lads, treat their own arab citizens as second class citizens and no nothing to stop rampaging mobs of foriegners from attacking Christian and Muslim communities in both Israel and occupied palestine.


Atleast, from looking at your previous posts, that's how you view anyone who disagrees with you.

Usual nonsense.

Lol! Well that's a really lame way of not addressing any of my points. Oh well- people like you are never interested in the facts.

Seaneh

Siuin wrote: »

Lol! Well that's a really lame way of not addressing any of my points. Oh well- people like you are never interested in the facts.

And people like are not interested in actually presenting facts.

It's all propaganda and shouts of anti-semitism.

Siuin

Seaneh wrote: »

And people like are not interested in actually presenting facts.

It's all propaganda and shouts of anti-semitism.

So enlighten me! How about addressing any of the issues I've raised? The land purchases? The violence against Jews in the Holy Land prior to the establishment of Israel? The expelling of Jews from Arab lands? The much higher incidents of persecution against Christians in Arab countries? The fact that Evangelical investment in Israel is overwhelmingly influenced by their own self interest?

Lazy OP is laaaazy.

JimiTime

Seaneh wrote: »

And people like are not interested in actually presenting facts.

It's all propaganda and shouts of anti-semitism.

Its such a horrible and disingenuous thing to see throughout discussions of genuine issues.

Objecting to, or questioning the state of Israel, and discussion gets shut down by shouts of anti-semitism.

Raising questionas about immigration, someone shouts racism

Have a Christian view on morality in terms of homosexuality, someone starts shouting bigot.

Such words should be illegal

And just to let ye know, I would be currently on a more pro-Israel side, but I really need to be educated properly on it all. Something thats hard to do when you need to apply a propaganda filter.

Siuin

JimiTime wrote: »

Its such a horrible and disingenuous thing to see throughout discussions of genuine issues.

Objecting to, or questioning the state of Israel, and discussion gets shut down by shouts of anti-semitism.

Raising questionas about immigration, someone shouts racism

Have a Christian view on morality in terms of homosexuality, someone starts shouting bigot.

Such words should be illegal

And just to let ye know, I would be currently on a more pro-Israel side, but I really need to be educated properly on it all. Something thats hard to do when you need to apply a propaganda filter.

How about you address any of the points I've raised then, JimiTime? Or have you simply arrived on the scene to continue our issues from the previous thread?

Notice I have not used the word anti-Semitism ONCE in any of my posts - it was simply used by Seaneh as a means of derailing the thread and not having to address the inaccuracies in his OP which I drew to his attention.

Seaneh

Siuin wrote: »

So enlighten me! How about addressing any of the issues I've raised? The land purchases? The violence against Jews in the Holy Land prior to the establishment of Israel? The expelling of Jews from Arab lands? The much higher incidents of persecution against Christians in Arab countries? The fact that Evangelical investment in Israel is overwhelmingly influenced by their own self interest?

Lazy OP is laaaazy.

And you address my points.

Christian buildings and communities being attacked by zionist groups and the government doing nothing about it.

Arab Jews (and christians and muslims) who are Israeli citizens being treated as lower class by the foreign Ashkenazi majority?

The fact that In Iran, Iraq, Syria, Jordan and Northern KSA local Jewish communities were subverted by zionist groups in the 60 and 70 to try and force them to migrate to Israel, where upon reaching the boarder they were subjected to strip searches and degraded by being subject to things like being sprayed by disinfectant and having their hair cropped.

The fact that Israel funds organisations like the JNF which imports American Jews and places them on Palestine land in an effort to oust Palestinians from the west back, which IS occupied Palestine land, not Israel. The JNF who, amazingly, also refuse to accept applications for housing from indigenous Arab Jews because they don't fit their view of what an Israeli looks like.


http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/09/20/israeli-christians-fear-greater-violence-after-vandals-attack-churches-holy-sites/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/bookreviews/4838496/Israels-humiliating-discrimination-against-Arab-Jews.html

Siuin

Seaneh wrote: »

And you address my points.

Christian buildings and communities being attacked by zionist groups and the government doing nothing about it.

Arab Jews (and christians and muslims) who are Israeli citizens being treated as lower class by the foreign Ashkenazi majority?

The fact that In Iran, Iraq, Syria, Jordan and Northern KSA local Jewish communities were subverted by zionist groups in the 60 and 70 to try and force them to migrate to Israel, where upon reaching the boarder they were subjected to strip searches and degraded by being subject to things like being sprayed by disinfectant and having their hair cropped.

The fact that Israel funds organisations like the JNF which imports American Jews and places them on Palestine land in an effort to oust Palestinians from the west back, which IS occupied Palestine land, not Israel. The JNF who, amazingly, also refuse to accept applications for housing from indigenous Arab Jews because they don't fit their view of what an Israeli looks like.


http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/09/20/israeli-christians-fear-greater-violence-after-vandals-attack-churches-holy-sites/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/bookreviews/4838496/Israels-humiliating-discrimination-against-Arab-Jews.html

I at no point said that discrimination does not occur in Israel- indeed, it happens in Ireland too against its Jewish population. Any country which has a minority population with different practices and beliefs will experience such problems. However, what occurs in Israel is nowhere NEAR that of Muslim countries such as Egypt where Christians:
- face many obstacles and restrictions in building new churches
- have been targeted by hate crimes and physical assaults - 2000–01: El Kosheh attacks (20 Christians killed), 2001: Muslims burned a new Egyptian church and the homes of 35 Christians, 2001: a 14-year-old Egyptian Christian girl was kidnapped because her parents were believed to be harboring a person who had coverted from Islam to Christianity
- are victims of human traffiking where Coptic women and girls who are victims of abductions, forced conversion to Islam, sexual exploitation and forced marriage to Muslim men
- continue to complain of being minimally represented in law enforcement, state security and public office, and of being discriminated against in the workforce on the basis of their religion
- are discriminated against and routinely refused govenment identification documents if they converted to Christianity from Islam

While Israel is by no means perfect, they are a hell of a lot better than their Arab neighbours. And keep in mind that Egypt is considered one of the 'friendlier' countries.

Never heard of such measures being taken against Arab Jews- please provide links to support your accusations.

The Jewish National Fund allows Jews to immigrate to Israel- of all people, the Irish are in the worst position when it comes to criticising those who immigrate to foreign lands. Sure, haven't the Irish been arriving on 'occupied' Aborigine and Native American soil for hundreds of years?

Now you answer the points I raised, thanks.

JimiTime

Siuin wrote: »

How about you address any of the points I've raised then, JimiTime? Or have you simply arrived on the scene to continue our issues from the previous thread?

I didn't address you or your points, and tbh, I've no desire to. I don't want to continue what happened in the other thread. It certainly stands as a warning not to engage with you. You have a bit to go before you redeem yourself as reasonable in my eyes after your crazy carry on there. I commented here simply to give my pearl of insight(tongue in cheek) as to the methods some people employ to shut down discussion.

Notice I have not used the word anti-Semitism ONCE in any of my posts - it was simply used by Seaneh as a means of derailing the thread and not having to address the inaccuracies in his OP which I drew to his attention.

Ehh, you accused him of 'picking on Jews' since it 'wasn't enough to drive them out of Europe'. So don't play dumb. Your sentiment was that Seaneh just has an issue with Jews.

If you guys want to tough it out, I'll certainly be an interested spectator. I hope accusations of Jew hatred etc will be left at the door though. If Seaneh is mistaken in his views, then I'd like to see him corrected, similarly with you. However, I don't see much happening if its going to be all chip on the shoulder nonsense. If Seaneh is mistaken in his views on the state of Israel (Not 'Jews'), then maybe you should empathise that western media is pretty sympathetic to the palestinian cause, and maybe he's just be influenced. Similarly, maybe you've been influenced by the sources you have. All in all, I think if you can have an honest discussion without all the 'You just pick on Jews' rubbish, then you'll get a lot further and will help an ignorant spectator like me to educate myself on the issues.

Siuin

JimiTime wrote: »

I didn't address you or your points, and tbh, I've no desire to. I don't want to continue what happened in the other thread. It certainly stands as a warning not to engage with you. You have a bit to go before you redeem yourself as reasonable in my eyes after your crazy carry on there. I commented here simply to give my pearl of insight(tongue in cheek) as to the methods some people employ to shut down discussion.

A warning not to engage with me, but you do anyway.
Trust me darling, I have neither the wish nor the intention to 'redeem' myself before you. If you have nothing to add to the actual discussion itself or have any insights on the points I have raised, then you have no business partaking in the debate.

JimiTime wrote: »

Ehh, you accused him of 'picking on Jews' since it 'wasn't enough to drive them out of Europe'. So don't play dumb. Your sentiment was that Seaneh just has an issue with Jews.

What other reason is there to ignore the much worse plight of Christians in neighbouring Arab/Islamic countries? He obviously has an agenda.

Perhaps you should look at the very valid points I have raised and come to your own conclusions, since Seaneh is showing no signs of engaging with them

lmaopml

Actually, the thing about the OP is that the example given is about the Trappist Monks, who are Roman Catholic Christians - and he decided to post their plight living in Jerusalem in the current political atmosphere as an example of some of the hate crimes that take place - they DO take place!

So just goes to show that the OP has no particular 'agenda' at all considering he is not as far as I am aware a Roman Catholic!

Neither is he an Atheist or Culturally only inclined....

Siuin

lmaopml wrote: »

Actually, the thing about the OP is that the example given is about the Trappist Monks, who are Roman Catholic Christians - and he decided to post their plight living in Jerusalem in the current political atmosphere as an example of some of the hate crimes that take place - they DO take place!

So just goes to show that the OP has no particular 'agenda' at all considering he is not as far as I am aware a Roman Catholic!

Neither is he an Atheist or Culturally only inclined....

If anyone was actually reading my posts, I clearly wrote:

I at no point said that discrimination does not occur in Israel- indeed, it happens in Ireland too against its Jewish population. Any country which has a minority population with different practices and beliefs will experience such problems. However, what occurs in Israel is nowhere NEAR that of Muslim countries such as Egypt

His agenda lies in his singling out of Israel in particular, a country which allows Christians much more religious freedoms and tolerance than any other country in the Middle East.

Still waiting for him to address my points, but I doubt he will. Seems he only posted here because he thought he'd get a rousing reception by a bunch of anti-Israel Christians.

PDN

Siuin wrote: »

His agenda lies in his singling out of Israel in particular, a country which allows Christians much more religious freedoms and tolerance than any other country in the Middle East.

No, his agenda lies in asking why the state of Israel is often treated differently by Evangelicals, rather than being judged by the same standards as other countries.

He wasn't taking a pop at Israel, or at Jews, but rather at what he sees as an inconsistency among many Evangelical Christians. It was a very pertinent question to ask in a Christianity Forum where some of the regular posters, including myself, are Evangelicals.

JimiTime

Siuin wrote: »

A warning not to engage with me, but you do anyway.

Engage in discussion about the issues is what i meant.

Trust me darling,

Darling? I didn't know you cared

I have neither the wish nor the intention to 'redeem' myself before you.

No problem, I didn't ask you to, I just informed you. What you do is up to you.

If you have nothing to add to the actual discussion itself or have any insights on the points I have raised, then you have no business partaking in the debate.

I wasn't taking part in the debate. I merely gave my observation into what some people do really stifles discussion. Ultimately though, I will decide what and when I post, and the mods will infract, ban and caution if its not welcome on the forum.

What other reason is there to ignore the much worse plight of Christians in neighbouring Arab/Islamic countries? He obviously has an agenda.

Why start with that assumption though? If you believe he has been ill informed about Israel and its goings on, and you believe you can educate him on his errors, then can't you do so without accusations of anti-semitism? Having issues with the modern state of Israel does not make a person a Jew hater. As I explained previously, we live in a media culture of Pro-Palestine, and we are also from a nation with a history that would lead some to sympathise with Palestine. If you can empathise with these factors, rather than just assume hidden agendas and Jew hatred then maybe you would better reach your audience.

Perhaps you should look at the very valid points I have raised and come to your own conclusions, since Seaneh is showing no signs of engaging with them

Maybe you should consider the manner with which you've approached things? I know I certainly wouldn't be motivated to respond when someone is so intent on calling you an anti-semite with an agenda etc. I will come to my own conclusions, and as I said, at this point of my limited education on the matter, I'd be more a supporter of Israel as I don't believe the Palestinians really want co-existence, and fire rockets targeting civillians, while their militants hide behind their own civillians.

Again, I'd be an interested spectator in your discussion, but if you really want that discussion, you'll have to realise that accusations of agenda's and picking on Jews is just going to shut down such a discussion. Up to you at the end of the day.

Siuin

Jimi, I'm not wasting my times on your posts- they're derailing the actual discussion of the entire thread and completely useless.

Seaneh

Siuin wrote: »

Jimi, I'm not wasting my times on your posts- they're derailing the actual discussion of the entire thread and completely useless.

:rolleyes:

JimiTime

Siuin wrote: »

Jimi, I'm not wasting my times on your posts- they're derailing the actual discussion of the entire thread and completely useless.

No problem. Your prerogative.

Siuin

Seaneh wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Seaneh, I actually feel sorry for you- you haven't been able to come up with a reasoned argument in any shape or form against any of the points I raised, making it embarrassingly apparent that you don't have the faintest clue what you're talking about, so instead you've resorted to nonsense posts- pathetic, really.

Benny_Cake

Mod note - I'm closing this thread, as despite a good start it has descended into namecalling and general childishness. There have probably been hundreds of such threads in After Hours and Politics and I don't think we need another here. Siuin, you are very welcome to join the discussions here but it would serve you better if you dialled down the anger levels a bit.