Spanish Authorities talk through ass once more....

LeftBase

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/spain-ireland-investigate-ryanair-flight-diversion-163521876--finance.html

N1 stable...full take off thrust for Spanish ATC rant....

Comment section gave me a laugh.....lots of people with no knowledge of aviation pretending they do.....

extraice

and next week thay give out about air berlin .... ha when one own airline have problem it take weeks befor we get to know any think about , Iberia A340 Suffers Major Damage by Bird Strike last may and wasnt in press untill Aug 12 .

spanair and ryanair used fight every day , got to problem that in madrid spanair block an ryanair flight at one gates ...

Spanish authorities are investigating emergency landings by three Ryanair planes in Valencia on July 26 after they approached their minimum required fuel.

dosnt say any think about Vueling Airlines also having same problem that night ... that end up in Alicante

Zonda999

I can only assume this is sour grapes from the Spanish Authorities because they know full well their own airlines cannot compete with Ryanair. Just look at a few choice Spanish domestic routes and see for yourself. They are trying to create a stigma that Ryanair is in some way skimping on safety to benefit their own struggling airlines IMHO..

Bearcat

Yes but Michael has not helped his cause here......a recent rambling letter to the Spanish minister threatening all sorts. There are times to button it and Michael sadly thru his micro managing everything has fallen a cropper here. A new letter in Spanish I see addressed to the Spanish minister is up on the FR website.

LeftBase

I was recently told to advise Spanish ATC when entering a hold that "We have 30 mins holding fuel and will be diverting under mayday if not cleared to the approach within 30mins".....such are the problems with waiting times for non Spanish companies.

Bearcat

LeftBase wrote: »

I was recently told to advise Spanish ATC when entering a hold that "We have 30 mins holding fuel and will be diverting under mayday if not cleared to the approach within 30mins".....such are the problems with waiting times for non Spanish companies.

(a) told by who....?

(b) my reading of this is you are already eating into your assigned diversion juice and are going to leave the hold knowing that at your diversion airport you will have less than 30mins of juice remaining which is a Mayday obviously. This is a massive no no in fuel management.

Am I missing something?

boeingboy

"I was recently told to advise Spanish ATC when entering a hold that "We have 30 mins holding fuel and will be diverting under mayday if not cleared to the approach within 30mins".....such are the problems with waiting times for non Spanish companies".


FFS.
Review your Fuel Policys and Legalities Please. Hope you werent told or believed that on your "line training".

In fact Ive never had problems with Spanish Atc, but maybe its the times we operate.

Ryanairs the best thing that happened to Spanish Aviation and Europe. Anyone remember the monopoly?
The Spanish have embarrased themselves I hope wrt FR.

http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_35762.shtml

drdeadlift

Told to say it,from this i take it you weren't the man in command,so im going to have a guess you had more fuel onboard than you let on.

pclancy

boeingboy wrote: »

http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_35762.shtml

Why did they include the video at the end? Its ancient and irrelevant, does anyone really know the story behind that video and that certain team leader's behavior?

I love O'Leary inserting the AV Herald screenshots into the open letter to AESA. Will be interesting to read there response though I doubt there will be one.

LeftBase

To answer all of the above It's a new stance the company takes given the messing about Spanish ATC get up to.

Burn the Trip Fuel on the Trip obviously leaving you , holding, alternate and reserves in the tanks. Pedro says to hold wherever. You say "Copy. hold wherever....just to advise you we have 30 mins of holding fuel(that we are willing to burn with Spanish ATC) and will divert if not cleared to the approach by 0930(assume we started at 0900)". So if 30 mins ticks by we are told to say "Ok we're diverting" as we only have alternate and reserves in the tanks. You head off to your alternate, burn the alternate fuel enroute and land with reserves intact(or maybe 15 mins above hitting the reserve red line).

It may be bending the truth slightly, but it gives them a clear message as to the results of just leaving aircraft there while they shepherd Iberia aircraft in. It's just so as to let Spanish ATC know they have 30mins before a fuel emergency is effectivly declared and in the wider scope it is a statement made by the airline about the carry on in Spain's airspace.

urajoke

I'll start off with the following comment and please remember it, you're probably/definitely correct about Spanish ATC looking after their own but.......

Being in a cockpit with no radar how do you know for definite that 'Foreign' airlines are losing out all the time?

Considering multiple frequencies will be feeding eventually one tower frequency for landing and you can't monitor them all, you therefore won't know how many are ahead and whether everyone is being given equal delay?

How come no airline or Eurocontrol have made a complaint/allegation against Spanish ATC and no investigation has been done?

Again I will refer you to my first comment, I am aware of the Madrid fuel issue and amazingly how only Spanish operators landed that night. If it is true and from the many many many comments online by pilots (they can't all be wrong) then someone/airline should make a complaint to Eurocontrol or AENA. I am not defending Spanish ATC but I am aware of how it can look when you are the only one on a frequency and you are sitting in a hold on your own and nothing is happening, sometimes there can be others on a different frequency in the same hold as you and sometimes traffic in the other hold just arrived before you so therefore the number you pulled is way down the line.

urajoke

http://www.ryanair.com/doc/news/2012/iaa_report_valencia_EN.pdf

LeftBase

urajoke wrote: »

I'll start off with the following comment and please remember it, you're probably/definitely correct about Spanish ATC looking after their own but.......

Being in a cockpit with no radar how do you know for definite that 'Foreign' airlines are losing out all the time?

Considering multiple frequencies will be feeding eventually one tower frequency for landing and you can't monitor them all, you therefore won't know how many are ahead and whether everyone is being given equal delay?

How come no airline or Eurocontrol have made a complaint/allegation against Spanish ATC and no investigation has been done?

Again I will refer you to my first comment, I am aware of the Madrid fuel issue and amazingly how only Spanish operators landed that night. If it is true and from the many many many comments online by pilots (they can't all be wrong) then someone/airline should make a complaint to Eurocontrol or AENA. I am not defending Spanish ATC but I am aware of how it can look when you are the only one on a frequency and you are sitting in a hold on your own and nothing is happening, sometimes there can be others on a different frequency in the same hold as you and sometimes traffic in the other hold just arrived before you so therefore the number you pulled is way down the line.

Well a lot of people have said that Iberia and Spanair(before...yanno) sometimes did not have to hold. Infact when I was getting the above quoted policy lecture during training that was again pointed out. Ryanair, Aer Lingus, BMI, Monarch, Easyjet, Alitalia to name a few were all buzzing round a hold and Iberia and Spanair(before...yanno) were getting direct vectors to finals once they arrived. One training Captain claimed that he was left holding so long with other aircraft he had to divert to keep the way clear for an Iberia A340 that was running late. He again claimed that all he could hear on the radio was Iberia aircraft being cleared out of the hold, many from higher levels so as to keep them on time.

To the best of my knowledge airlines have complained AENA(Ryanair for certain) but AENA are all into protecting their own. The above article is yet another attempt on their part to smear Ryanair and their attitude towards other low cost carriers who are screwing Spanish operators is much the same.

IngazZagni

urajoke wrote: »

I'll start off with the following comment and please remember it, you're probably/definitely correct about Spanish ATC looking after their own but.......

Being in a cockpit with no radar how do you know for definite that 'Foreign' airlines are losing out all the time?

Considering multiple frequencies will be feeding eventually one tower frequency for landing and you can't monitor them all, you therefore won't know how many are ahead and whether everyone is being given equal delay?

How come no airline or Eurocontrol have made a complaint/allegation against Spanish ATC and no investigation has been done?

Again I will refer you to my first comment, I am aware of the Madrid fuel issue and amazingly how only Spanish operators landed that night. If it is true and from the many many many comments online by pilots (they can't all be wrong) then someone/airline should make a complaint to Eurocontrol or AENA. I am not defending Spanish ATC but I am aware of how it can look when you are the only one on a frequency and you are sitting in a hold on your own and nothing is happening, sometimes there can be others on a different frequency in the same hold as you and sometimes traffic in the other hold just arrived before you so therefore the number you pulled is way down the line.

It's well known that it happens, although a lot less now than in the past. Spanish carriers that were higher and approaching a point behind you often got cleared in front of you. The transmissions were in Spanish so often many pilots of non Spanish carriers wouldn't know what was said. The amount of Spanish pilots in the likes of easy and Ryan has increased a lot so they can't hide behind a language anymore and I've heard many arguments on the radio about this. Again with the end result usually being the controllers saying if you want to make a complaint, send a letter. Great, thanks.

Speaking of complaints, many have been made. Eurocontrol surveys were sent out by European carriers operating in Spain to the pilots. I and many others slated Spanish ATC and praised the likes of German and British ATC. Whether this has had anything to do with the recent improvements, who knows. I've noticed yet another notch of improvement since those Mad/Vlc incidents. It's possible they are being monitored more closely by European authorities and this is why.

urajoke

No problem thanks guys.

Hopefully AENA will get a proper good slapping over this and maybe even a day in court over there potentially damaging allegations.

As far as I am concerned all aircraft are equal except for Hospital flights and emergencies.

kona

So why was the Paris to Tenerife flight diverted to Madrid? They say this is why they are under investigation, then waffle on about fuel being a issue during other incidents.
Perhaps there was a issue, dont the various aviation authorities do random technical checks on foreign aircraft?

IngazZagni

kona wrote: »

So why was the Paris to Tenerife flight diverted to Madrid? They say this is why they are under investigation, then waffle on about fuel being a issue during other incidents.
Perhaps there was a issue, dont the various aviation authorities do random technical checks on foreign aircraft?

All indications point to a very minor incident, something other airlines experience regularly but don't get reported.
What's being discussed is the fact previously all fr incidents in Spain have been investigated by the IAA only. From now on starting with that diversion, incidents will jointly be investigated by both the Irish and Spanish authorities with both groups sharing their findings.

As for random checks. Yes they do happen at random times. They are called SAFA checks (Safety Assessment of Foreign Aircraft) and they cover everything from the licences of the pilots to the general airworthiness of the aircraft.