clinch for self defense

SBG Ireland

work the clinch or rely on ur fantasy. thoughts?
http://thefightweek.com/fighting-in-the-clinch-a-key-skill-in-real-fighting/

OLDMAN1

SBG Ireland wrote: »

work the clinch or rely on ur fantasy. thoughts?
http://thefightweek.com/fighting-in-the-clinch-a-key-skill-in-real-fighting/

i would agree with a lot of what was written, i would disagree that martial artists dont see the importance of it, i just did 2 hours of it

Peetrik

Interesting article. Yeah I think that its definitely something that's neglected alright, personally I love to clinch as I'm tall for my weight and height is a big advantage for clinching.
The fitness needed to go 5 rounds kicking and punching is not transferable to being able to clinch 5 rounds as its different muscles you're using so a good clincher can make a skilled opponent look very messy if the opponent hasn't at least trained to avoid the clinch.

OLDMAN1

Peetrik wrote: »

Interesting article. Yeah I think that its definitely something that's neglected alright, personally I love to clinch as I'm tall for my weight and height is a big advantage for clinching.
The fitness needed to go 5 rounds kicking and punching is not transferable to being able to clinch 5 rounds as its different muscles you're using so a good clincher can make a skilled opponent look very messy if the opponent hasn't at least trained to avoid the clinch.

Is it really neglected that much?

SBG Ireland

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

Peetrik wrote: »

Interesting article. Yeah I think that its definitely something that's neglected alright, personally I love to clinch as I'm tall for my weight and height is a big advantage for clinching.
The fitness needed to go 5 rounds kicking and punching is not transferable to being able to clinch 5 rounds as its different muscles you're using so a good clincher can make a skilled opponent look very messy if the opponent hasn't at least trained to avoid the clinch.

Is it really neglected that much?

did u read the article? think of the number of complete martial art systems that have practically zero clinch

Civilian Personal Protection

SBG Ireland wrote: »

work the clinch or rely on ur fantasy. thoughts?
http://thefightweek.com/fighting-in-the-clinch-a-key-skill-in-real-fighting/

self defence, as in street? clinch is good tool to have. many street thugs will not have the core strength, so deffo, it may be useful.

if one must be close, and can use the clinch - why not. knee the face whatever number of times is required, and bugger off.

warmest wishes

wayne

Peetrik

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

Is it really neglected that much?

I think so, in Ireland at any rate. Out of the 5-6 MA's I've tried the most clinch intensive MA I've done by far is Thai and there are no clubs in Ireland that even approach the skill level of the Thai's themselves.

I could be totally wrong here but I think its probably that we don't have the background in it compared to the likes of the US where they would have college wrestling. Stand up fighting in Ireland has traditionally favored Boxing with maybe some kickboxing at a push... neither of which have any clinch.

OLDMAN1

SBG Ireland wrote: »

did u read the article? think of the number of complete martial art systems that have practically zero clinch

i did read the article, just because its written on the internet doesn't make it right," most Kung Fu styles emphasize only striking" this is completely wrong. nearly all have Chinese martial arts have SHUAI JIAO (Chinese wrestling) I would agree that its not practiced by some.

SBG Ireland

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

SBG Ireland wrote: »

did u read the article? think of the number of complete martial art systems that have practically zero clinch

i did read the article, just because its written on the et doesn't make it right," most Kung Fu styles emphasize only striking" this is completely wrong. nearly all have Chinese martial arts have SHUAI JIAO (Chinese wrestling) I would agree that its not practiced by some.

i think the point being the majority of martial arts practicioners don't train in the clinch. he wrote it on the internet and it also is true. kenpo, tkd, karate...

Civilian Personal Protection

on the street the clinch can give head control. anyone worth anthing in security will know that head control is important. where the head goes the body follows.

OLDMAN1

SBG Ireland wrote: »

i think the point being the majority of martial arts practicioners don't train in the clinch. he wrote it on the internet and it also is true. kenpo, tkd, karate...

i dont train in any of these so i dont know how they train but i do agree that the clinch is a VERY important part of training

Doug Cartel

Everyone's preparing for the knife-wielding psycho backed up by 20 buddies, when one of the most likely things they're going to face is some agro guy grabbing them and pushing them round.

Jason McCabe

My daddy always told me if you are fighting a kratty man, when he is taking his shoes off kick him in the b@lls

cowzerp

Clinch is essential to know when somebody grabs you, Ideally it wouldn't get to that stage but inevitably will, Oh and people saying there is no Clinch in Boxing are very wrong, Its illegal but always used both defensively and offensively, Especially in Pro Boxing.

Craptacular

To back up Oldman's point, over the years I've trained in Shotokan, Wado Ryu, Kyokoshin, Aikido, Wung Tsun, kickboxing and boxing. Of those the only one that I worked the clinch in was Wing Tsun, a style of kung fu, where they covered entering the clinch, controlling the head & attacking and defending using elbows and knees.

That's not to say that none of the others cover it, just that it wasn't emphasised as much. Of course I didn't spend years in all of these arts so I may not have stuck around long enough to see it covered.

Niall Keane

Interesting article, though I have to agree with Oldman, kung fu's Shuai Jiao (one of the four pillars of Sanshou- combat application) is all about stand up wrestling / clinch, it's an absolute must in modern sanda where fast-throws from the clinch (limited to 5-7 seconds) is a major part of the sport. In Old style "lei tai" challenges throwing and remaining on the feet was one of 3 ways of scoring, the others being knock down with strikes or knock off platform.

These days you get 1 point of you land on your opponent but 2 two points if you remain on your feet. Elbows and knees are also permitted in pro rules sanda and amateur Kaoshu

If you take a look at "art of war" Chinese MMA (a lot of the fighters have a Sanshou base) where rules allow kicking and stamping a downed opponent, you'll see a lot of clean (remaining on feet) trips, throws and sweeps from the clinch.

"sanda Wang" (king of sanda) and the mixed sanda/Thai events are full of this skill, I believe there's loads of clips on YouTube.

Kinda surprised in this day and age that the article needs to be written. Though fighters can usually get away with a good striking and ground game alone without having to put time into acquiring the skills of standup wrestling / clinch work which is another dynamic I suppose?

The major difference i found to be is where the thrower directs his technique. In kung fu there's te concept of "the void", one of its meanings is simply where the opponent has no support or "leg". You always throw him into his void, but if you direct the throw along the line of your void you end up falling too, and so you have slams. If you want to remain upright it requires "lifting" the opponent in a way, and twisting to end up throwing him through his void but in the direction of your "substantial", so you're dealing with two dynamics, which makes it a bit trickier!

I can see the skill of judo, submission wrestling etc, where one is concerned with following up a takedown with good position, and I guess I've given a brief description above of the concerns and skills of stand up, it's nice for a fighter If he has both covered and can mix it up.

Clinch work also focuses on blending strikes and wrestling seemlessly entering, during and exiting, which I feel most fighters lack, going mentally from a to b not seeing the similarity of form. Ie how an overhand punch is the exact same as scooping a kick etc.

Once a fighter can internalise that he can let go of failed attempts and move seemlessly into another type of attack using the opponents countering mechanics against him.

The classics would state:

"the Jin (technique) is broken, but the Yi (intent) unbroken"

RoboRat

I always read your ^^^ posts with a Yoda voice in my head.

Niall Keane

Interesting that the author believes that most self defense situations begin in the clinch range, old lei tai and some Kaoshu begin with crossing arms, think "enter the dragon"

And I suppose that sums up the problem, combat sports "incentivise" certain methods...

MMA - you can avoid good clinch game by sacrifice throws
Incentive - rules could award far more points for clean throws
Downside - scoring becomes complex, spectators not happy

Muay Thai - clinch goes on as fighters not allowed to trip or throw
Incentive - add stand up grappling
Downside - MT puts bums on seats who want to see blood, and tripping doesn't look as vicious as repeated knees

Sanshou - no points for strikes during clinch so strikers try to break away and clinch time maybe little too short
incentive - score them! They're used anyway, but you'd get rid of fighters trying to score "clean" hits artificially
Downside - very hard on judges to count, see all from ringside, probably why old lei tai had no points for any strikes unless they knocked the opponent down.


But none of that is going to happen.

SaoriseBiker

SBG Ireland wrote: »

did u read the article? think of the number of complete martial art systems that have practically zero clinch

Krav Maga .... but that has EVERYTHING :eek: Disarming a few guys with AK47's, Baseball bats, Bowie knifes etc

pearsquasher

What is a clinch?

Let us initially define a clinch as any situation where both combatants are standing and have some kind of grip upon each other. This definition is deliberately vague enough to convey the idea that clinches come in many different forms. The common factor is that the grip upon an opponent allows each fighter to control, pull, push, off-balance and restrain the other. This might begin with a simple wrist grab. It increases in complexity and control all the way up to headlocks, bodylocks etc. etc. Once in a clinch, the fighters can no longer move as they please, but must now take the other fighter’s grip and control into account as they attempt to fight. Not all clinches are equally controlling.

Bujinkan is made of about 900 paired kata (I know and practice maybe 100 of these). I'd say off the top of my head that half of these are weapons based and half the rest are clinch based or at least transition to a clinch as defined above. I'm currently working on a set of 12 kata in my dojo, taking one kata over four classes - that's about 8 hours on one kata, to really practice all its nooks and crannies.

The last three that we've done have a clinch in the raw kata form....but you could (and should, in my book) practice ANY kata with a clinch transition somewhere in it as a variation including with weapons.

.. just sayin'

btw.. never called these things "clinches" before. Usually called grabs, holds, locks, bear-hugs, full-nelsons, grappling etc.

I suppose "clinch" is a catch-all term... a boom-tish!

oc_pl

I wouldn't be clinching in a self defence situation, I think it would leave you open to be bitten (ears, nose etc) and also getting gouged. Stay on our feet and keep your distance, if a trained fighter can land 3 or 4 solid punches your average guy is going down.

Niall Keane

oc_pl wrote: »

I wouldn't be clinching in a self defence situation, I think it would leave you open to be bitten (ears, nose etc) and also getting gouged. Stay on our feet and keep your distance, if a trained fighter can land 3 or 4 solid punches your average guy is going down.

Think the point is you might not have a choice. As the author correctly stated the best way to counter superior striking is not to back peddle nor to cover / block, but to move in and tie him up, this is pretty instinctual with everyone, even professional boxers do it though according to rules they shouldn't!

Civilian Personal Protection

Oc Pl and Niall both have points. Ideally it's best to keep distance on the street. biting and weapons are real dangers. IMO, clinching should only be used as a transitional technique. Ya dont' want to tie yourself in close to someone for any length of time.

SBG Ireland

i probably should have stressed clinch range trained realistically as in judo , wrestling, san shou ie combat sports. not where someone grabs ur wrist and then throws themselves head over heals like in aikido

Peetrik

SBG Ireland wrote: »

not where someone grabs ur wrist and then throws themselves head over heals like in aikido

Your own fault if you let them get close enough in their wheelchair

Clive

There's a big difference between learning a few "tricks" as they used to be called and earning the fundamental skills of the clinch. Anytime I've gone up against someone significantly more skilled than me in that area I would have no opportunity to bite, pull a weapon or tie them up long enough for a friend to arrive.

The person who dominates the clinch decides when they want to disengage.

Niall Keane

Clive wrote: »

The person who dominates the clinch decides when they want to disengage.

So true! They are the puppeteer, but such awareness as Clive depicts is born from repeated practical experience not pondering theoretical possibility.

There's a whole lot of leverage mechanics and options in the clinch, your opponent shouldn't be able to reach for your face never mind eye gouge, without being totally unbalanced, and at your mercy, as for biting? Well leave your jaw hinge joint cantileering out there and you'll get it broken or dislocated, not to mention escalation of conflict.

I fought a lad in Kaoshu once with MMA type gloves, at one point he tried an eye gouge during clinch, I just rolled my forehead and slipped him. But I boure it in mind, and felt... Ok so that's how it is. Next round he went for a double seize leg take down, I sprawled into a standing guilitine ish move, except I tightly covered his mouth and nose with my hands and kept them there, even for a while after the ref. tried to break us.
My opponent panicked, suffocating, trying to pull my hands away, totally focusing on them which is a bit stupid anyway. I made sure te ref couldn't see what was going on. From that moment on my opponent feared me. I followed this up with seizing his kick shortly after, and slammed him into the floor, driving down with him, but with my elbow impacting on his ribs. I guess I broke a few and he was stretcherd off coughing blood. I made it look accidental and won the fight.

I wouldn't have done any of that if he hadn't gone for my eyes. I came there to test my skills.

Just because a sport fighter doesn't fight dirty on the Lei tai or where ever, doesn't mean he hasn't got it in him, and fact is a sports fighter should be far sharper at seeing targets of opportunity!

Also there are pricks out there who cheat, and with any level of proper experience you'll be exposed to them. And so you'll learn how they work and how to counter them.

Clinch work will alot of the time involve wrestling using your head and I don't mean "thinking" I mean that heavy lump at the end of your neck. People have all heard of "one inch punches" but how about "zero inch headbutts"? - fantastic for gaining superior leverage and control. The ref standing a few feet away won't see them but every clinch fighter knows them intimately!

Shoulders are nice striking weapons too, and are perfectly positioned in the clinch. if someone tried bite me, I'd break his fcuking teeth this way!

All legal or invisible, all part of a good clinch fighters game, Mastering your balance means every step is a knee or sweep, amd youll learn how to deal with knees - hint, you dont drop your hands! every bit of resistance from your opponent a way to give him more than he wants an whip his spine. I say the biggest concern for a clinch fighter on the street is that he might Accidently break the softies neck.

Engaging and disengaging with the three ranges of fist, elbow and shoulder, or below with foot, knee and hip, and not forgetting that other "seven star" the head means that clinch work isn't just wrestling but tenderising a stake before you smash it down. If he won't go down easy, you punish him twice as hard until he learns that every time you change leverage points you slice him with elbows and fists. I've seen good clinch work end fights, the opponent just emptied of any will to be there.

The mentality of the clinch is tenacious and unrelenting, it's about pulverising their faces and chests with shoulders and elbows, swinging them by their necks, knees crushing their ribs and making jelly out of their thighs, twisting and smashing their knees and ankles, stamping and breaking their feet and toes. and doing so ruthlessly!
The final takedown should be a welcome release to your opponent.

Of course its a viable self defence fighting skill!

SaoriseBiker

oc_pl wrote: »

I wouldn't be clinching in a self defence situation, I think it would leave you open to be bitten (ears, nose etc) and also getting gouged. Stay on our feet and keep your distance, if a trained fighter can land 3 or 4 solid punches your average guy is going down.

Easier said than done, just watch the first few UFC's and see how men from a striking background Karate, boxing did. Ass kicked when easily taken to the ground. Even the average bloe can take down a boxer/TKDer with a half rugby tackle. I know because that's what I did in my school days when I got into a scrape with a fella I thought had superior boxing skills.

Simples.

Bres

Niall Keane wrote: »

Clinch work will alot of the time involve wrestling using your head and I don't mean "thinking" I mean that heavy lump at the end of your neck. People have all heard of "one inch punches" but how about "zero inch headbutts"? - fantastic for gaining superior leverage and control. The ref standing a few feet away won't see them but every clinch fighter knows them intimately!

Using your head is all part of the game, Not head-butting but forehead to temple or jaw is the folk-style way of cliching. Gotta control the head and hips