Mary Roche's comments on front of Munster

Max Powers

Headline says (not exact quote) ''hogan will succeed in ruining urbs intacta (Waterford) where Oliver Cromwell failed.''

By this she means the merger of Waterford City and County COuncils will ruin Waterford. Is this just Mary/councillors looking after their numbers, very generous pay and expenses outlined in a previous topic?

I presume merger will mean less councillors.
I presume they will still have the crazy expenses/allowances.
I know there is an issue of the county being more in debt but surely we are a small county/country and 5-10 councillors is plenty.
I would prefer if this was happening to Cork and Galway too, how have Limerick faired. Somehow, i feel the councillors faired fine.

7upfree

Max Powers wrote: »

Headline says (not exact quote) ''hogan will succeed in ruining urbs intacta (Waterford) where Oliver Cromwell failed.''

By this she means the merger of Waterford City and County COuncils will ruin Waterford. Is this just Mary/councillors looking after their numbers, very generous pay and expenses outlined in a previous topic?

I presume merger will mean less councillors.
I presume they will still have the crazy expenses/allowances.
I know there is an issue of the county being more in debt but surely we are a small county/country and 5-10 councillors is plenty.
I would prefer if this was happening to Cork and Galway too, how have Limerick faired. Somehow, i feel the councillors faired fine.

Maybe. But the devil is in the detail.

The merged Council should be in Waterford City. Mr. Hogan is also, incredibly, talking about removing Waterford's City status - which is far more serious than ANY council shakeup.

Jason Todd

7upfree wrote: »

Maybe. But the devil is in the detail.

The merged Council should be in Waterford City. Mr. Hogan is also, incredibly, talking about removing Waterford's City status - which is far more serious than ANY council shakeup.

Any chance of a link to that story? :eek:

fricatus

7upfree wrote: »

Mr. Hogan is also, incredibly, talking about removing Waterford's City status - which is far more serious than ANY council shakeup.

Jason Todd wrote: »

Any chance of a link to that story? :eek:

Well, if we try to think about it logically, where does a city get its status? From the law of the land.

What law of the land does Waterford derive its status from? The 2001 Local Government Act which sets out that it has a City Council.

If changes are made and it then has only a County Council (like Longford, say), then does it have the status of a city?

Your guess is as good as mine!

fricatus

Max Powers wrote: »

Headline says (not exact quote) ''hogan will succeed in ruining urbs intacta (Waterford) where Oliver Cromwell failed.''

By this she means the merger of Waterford City and County COuncils will ruin Waterford. Is this just Mary/councillors looking after their numbers, very generous pay and expenses outlined in a previous topic?

Well you can ask that question, and say that "she would say that, wouldn't she", and you could be right.

However Cllr Roche has a long track record of speaking out on issues like this, so her comments don't surprise me, whatever the motivation.

Max Powers wrote: »

I presume merger will mean less councillors.

AFAIK, yes.

Max Powers wrote: »

I presume they will still have the crazy expenses/allowances.

These are set on a national basis, aren't they? So yes would be the answer presumably,

Max Powers wrote: »

I know there is an issue of the county being more in debt but surely we are a small county/country and 5-10 councillors is plenty.

That's certainly arguable, but why are only Waterford and Limerick being targeted? Surely all our cities should have stand-alone authorities? Our cities are always being touted as the drivers of our economy (well Dublin is always touted as the engine of the Irish economy, but surely Waterford is a smaller engine of the south-eastern economy).

Why not merge Sligo and Leitrim county councils, Cavan and Monaghan, or Longford and Roscommon for example, if cost savings are the objective? These are mostly rural authorities and are a better fit with one another.

Max Powers wrote: »

I would prefer if this was happening to Cork and Galway too, how have Limerick faired. Somehow, i feel the councillors faired fine.

I really think it's odd that it's not happening to Galway. I mean, in size terms, Galway sits between Limerick and Waterford, so why is it not also having its councils merged? I can see no other reason than favouritism.

I made a submission on this, which I outlined in a post on another thread. When you think about it logically, this change makes no sense on its own, which is why I'm suspicious about the motives behind it.

Bards

Call me cynical but I Reckon the real motive behind all this is to weaken Waterford while at the same time strengthen Kilkenny with a view to KK replacing waterford as the regional Capital.

Just look what Howlin did the Waterford CIty & County VEC when he merged them with Wexford. Did the new enlarged authority go to the regional capital (Makes the most sense)

No it went to a COunty Town (Wexford) again to make Waterford weaker.

FG & Lab have form on this. Rememebr when they moved the Director of the IDA for the South East out of Waterford and let the COrk Office handle the whole South and South East.

fricatus

Bards wrote: »

Call me cynical but I Reckon the real motive behind all this is to weaken Waterford while at the same time strengthen Kilkenny with a view to KK replacing waterford as the regional Capital.

Well you know, Occam's Razor and all that... this is a simple (if somewhat paranoid) explanation for what's happening. It doesn't make sense if this isn't the agenda, so FG can hardly blame us for filling in the gaps with conspiracy theories...

Max Powers

My thinking on it is I odnt trust any politican or councillor so i dont trust FULLY what Mary Roche or Phil Hogan is up to. The fact that this is being confined to Waterford and Limerick cities (Tipp county also) is the biggest fear, demote them 2 so cork, dublin, galway can get an even bigger share of the pie. Recent IDA reports prove this with 80% of FDI going there (i know dublin skews these figures a bit due to major population but it is what it is).

waterford

When the city and the county councils are joined together by Hogan
Will Mary cut down on her expenses too and rejoin FF :rolleyes:

fricatus

waterford wrote: »

When the city and the county councils are joined together by Hogan
Will Mary cut down on her expenses too and rejoin FF :rolleyes:

Jesus, there are some sheep on this forum! As soon as councillors are mentioned, the first thing anyone thinks of is expenses, and petty stuff like what party someone may have been a part of in the past.

The people who want to abolish Waterford City Council care not a toss about the past, present or future of this city. Whatever their reasons for stripping this city of an independent administration, they're being hidden behind a convenient smokescreen of cost cutting, and of course who is against cost-cutting in the current economic climate?

But FFS, I would urge people to think for themselves on this one and not just go with knee-jerk reactions against councillors' expenses and junkets, which I agree are real issues. You should be asking the politicians why they're picking only on our area of the country, and not engaging in a root-and-branch reform.

Abolishing Waterford City Council will probably save some money, and that will be used as the justification. However councillors up and down the country will continue as before. Think about it: Leitrim and Longford both have smaller populations than Waterford city. Why then will they continue to have independent councils, with all the junkets and cost associated with them? Why not merge them with say Sligo and Roscommon, to save costs?

Waterford is the most important city in the south-east, yet after this it seems it won't even have a borough council, which Wexford, Clonmel and Kilkenny will have. It won't even have a town council, like Dungarvan and Tramore. The proposal is fcuking nuts, excuse my French, and it has not been debated in any sort of democratic way. Phil Hogan is doing this ar$e-about-face, and he doesn't even seem to think it necessary to explain what he's doing, other than hiding behind the BS smokescreen of "cost savings"

Cabaal

Bards wrote: »

Call me cynical but I Reckon the real motive behind all this is to weaken Waterford while at the same time strengthen Kilkenny with a view to KK replacing waterford as the regional Capital.

Paranoid much?
Next you are going to suggest that he'll try to dig a ditch around Waterford so it can set it afloat from the rest of Ireland into the Irish sea.

Black Suir

Bards wrote: »

FG & Lab have form on this. Rememebr when they moved the Director of the IDA for the South East out of Waterford and let the COrk Office handle the whole South and South East.

These two were never any good while in Government. Fianna Fail in the last few years, were also guilty of mistakes or having friends in high places, but they had nothing on both Fine Gael and Labour. Look back through the pages of history and see all that they have done or not done. However, I guess we will have them for a while yet. I dont think either FF or SF if they are honest will want to come in and try and put right all that this shower of ***** are at. To see how good they are all we have to do is to look at both Ciara Conway and Paudie Coffey. Have they done anything for Waterford since they were elected other that to welcome something that some minister said, or to get on TV3 or stand near a mic.

By the way, what ever happened to Enda's five point plan, and his 100 Day plan. In the run up to the last general election, it was like a Rubber Bandits song every time he opened his mouth, "I have a five point plan".

Mugser

Would that mean that the Waterford City and County sections on here would have to be merged too?
:pac::pac:

Jason Todd

Mugser wrote: »

Would that mean that the Waterford City and County sections on here would have to be merged too?
:pac::pac:

Oh jaysus, don't start! :pac:

thomasm

From Mary Roches blog
http://cllrmaryroche.blogspot.ie/2012/09/proposing-speech-for-motion-that.html?m=1

BlaasForRafa

Cabaal wrote: »

Paranoid much?
Next you are going to suggest that he'll try to dig a ditch around Waterford so it can set it afloat from the rest of Ireland into the Irish sea.

He's not paranoid at all and your facetious comment doesn't really add much to the discussion.

Hogan may or may not be doing this (in part) to weaken Waterford but Kilkenny politicians do have form for this sort of thing, they kept the road to Waterford in South KK deliberately brutal for decades so as to lessen investment in Waterford, they got the headquarters of the south eastern health board put in KK despite waterford being the regional capital and having the regional hospital so he's got a right to suspect Hogan may be up to shenanigans.

charlemont

Waterford's councils should be stripped of the fat (all councils should) but merging them is just badly thought out, looking at a map of the county and city clearly shows why it won't work, It will become an urban/rural competition between the councillors. The cities should never be merged with the counties (will be happening to Limerick too) Waterford* alongside Galway are the only cities to even have proper boundaries around them as it is.

I do think though lots of the smaller town councils should be stripped, abolished, or merged with their respective county councils.


*obviously Ferrybank should be in the city boundary but in fairness its in another county too.

Sully

This thread is full of complete paranoia. It deserves to be in the Conspiracy Forum tbh.

Sully

Black Suir wrote: »

These two were never any good while in Government. Fianna Fail in the last few years, were also guilty of mistakes or having friends in high places, but they had nothing on both Fine Gael and Labour. Look back through the pages of history and see all that they have done or not done. However, I guess we will have them for a while yet. I dont think either FF or SF if they are honest will want to come in and try and put right all that this shower of ***** are at. To see how good they are all we have to do is to look at both Ciara Conway and Paudie Coffey. Have they done anything for Waterford since they were elected other that to welcome something that some minister said, or to get on TV3 or stand near a mic.

By the way, what ever happened to Enda's five point plan, and his 100 Day plan. In the run up to the last general election, it was like a Rubber Bandits song every time he opened his mouth, "I have a five point plan".

A few things here.

1) In general, FG & Lab formed a government to get our countries finances back in track following a financial cockup by Fianna Fail. They were in government, what, 7 times since 1937 with it all being Fianna Fail outside of those times. We tend to kick Fianna Fail out when times are bad and get FG/Lab to fix it. Then we kick them out for being so tough on us and welcome Fianna Fail back with open arms. Sinn Fein have proven by their policy implementation in the North that they are just misleading the people. They campaign against a number of government policies in the Republic while they happily implement them in the North. Likewise, they claim a considerable amount of expenses to balance their "We only take the Industrial Wage Home, as we are representing the Working Class" and have had their own very serious expenses scandal in the North and here in the South. Sinn Fein are no more to be trusted as are Fianna Fail, leaving us no opposition (bar the real looney left, which have been caught out numerous times on their lies).

2) The current system does not give much room for TDs without a Ministerial position to do anything of any substance. What exactly has Halligan done for Waterford? Or in the Senate, despite continuously being rejected by the people, SFs Cullinane? Its very rare TDs that are just back benchers can do anything bar represent Waterford and lobby for Waterford. Most of the stuff each and every TD does is behind the scenes.

3) The Fine Gael "Five Point Plan" was the main "pitch" that the party had for a majority government (and only in the event of a majority government, like many of its commitments). Each party in Ireland had their "pitch". Sinn Fein copied the "five point plan" approach after the election. Obama had his pitch in his last election which was constantly said whenever he spoke - "Yes We Can".

FG won them the most seats in the house.

In regards to the other conspiracies. We are always saying that every City is given more attention than Ireland. Yet, Limerick City is bigger than Waterford. I very much doubt that Hogan would remove two cities, especially one of our larger ones, without serious opposition by the people (opposition TDs, for example) or the Ministers in that constituency.

In regards to Waterford alone, Hogan has already stated we wont be losing our City Status.

I assure Senator David Cullinane that the gateway of Waterford will not be diluted with or without Ferrybank. It will be protected and strengthened and its city status will be maintained

Source: http://debates.oireachtas.ie/seanad/2012/02/01/00007.asp#N126

Now I know what you are going to say: Its all a lie. Minister Hogan will remove our title and that will be that, because, after all - the law states we must have a City Council. For this part, I have made a few inquiries and once I get an answer ill be sure to post it.

fricatus

Sully wrote: »

This thread is full of complete paranoia. It deserves to be in the Conspiracy Forum tbh.

Paranoia thrives where there is an information vacuum Sully, and there is bugger-all information being put out about this, other than it's a done deal, and that Waterford and Limerick councils are being merged.

Nobody, AFAIK, has answered any of the legitimate questions, many of which I put in my submission to the IPA, such as the following:

- What exactly will be done to make sure that the city has an independent voice? Kilkenny, Clonmel and Wexford will all still have Borough Councils to represent the urban area. Tramore and Dungarvan will have Town Councils. What will Waterford city have?

- Why are Waterford and Limerick singled out? Why not also Cork and Galway? Nobody has answered this, and I remain very paranoid in the absence of a satisfactory answer!

- Has consideration not been given to merging largely rural authorities (which would fit better together? Sligo/Leitrim, Longford/Roscommon, Cavan/Monaghan all come to mind. Wouldn't this make more sense than stripping our 3rd and 5th cities of their dedicated administrations?

These are all sensible, logical questions, but they haven't been answered. There is no debate at all here with the people who are pushing this through, except empty words that our status will be "protected". Didn't Enda say before the election that Roscommon A&E would be "protected"? I wouldn't be putting too much trust in any politician's assurances, in fairness!

Sully

I'm glad to see that you appear to have backed down from the conspiracy that Waterfords City status will be removed, but I have gone one step further and researched the whole City fiasco once and for all. You selectively quoted one part of the legislation, which has to be changed to accommodate mergers. Likewise, when people debate about the status of Kilkenny people selectively quote when there are other sections within that explain its position and there are clarifications from the government of the time available online.

In order for Waterford and Limerick to lose their City Status in Legislation the Minister would have to amend Part 2 of Schedule 5 of the Local Government Act 2001 and delete Waterford and Limerick as Cities; very doubtful that would happen as that would only leave Ireland with 3 cities. Its much more likely with the merger that the Minister would delete Waterford and Limerick County Councils from Part 1 of Schedule 5 of the same Act. There's nothing in the legislation to State that in order to have City status there must be a City Council. Waterford has a City Charter which enshrines its City Status.

There has been debate on this proposal, but you would need to look beyond your local newspaper or discussion board to see it. Its still work in progress and there is a lot more to it than just slapping the two councils together and leaving it at that. You are of course welcome to email your local TD or directly to the Ministers office with your concerns, as is your democratic entitlement. There has been reports before FG & Lab came into office, commissioned by the last government, about cost saving measures which included selecting certain areas for mergers. Minister Hogan had no hand in that report and even criticised it.

Re: Enda & the hospital. Yes, but it appears that Kenny made the promise without knowing the full facts which tends to be a problem when in opposition on any subject, but I hate the way he and others made promises. HIQA report stated otherwise about Roscommon Hospital which gave the government no choice but to shut it down for patient safety. Wasn't a cost saving measure and was nothing to do with local politics. Roscommon is irrelevant to Waterford.

average_runner

Bards wrote: »

Call me cynical but I Reckon the real motive behind all this is to weaken Waterford while at the same time strengthen Kilkenny with a view to KK replacing waterford as the regional Capital.

Just look what Howlin did the Waterford CIty & County VEC when he merged them with Wexford. Did the new enlarged authority go to the regional capital (Makes the most sense)

No it went to a COunty Town (Wexford) again to make Waterford weaker.

FG & Lab have form on this. Rememebr when they moved the Director of the IDA for the South East out of Waterford and let the COrk Office handle the whole South and South East.

The reason it went to Wexford is because its a bigger county and has a higher population as a county

Monty Burnz

Black Suir wrote: »

These two were never any good while in Government.

You might want to look into who was in power when the foundation for the 90s boom was laid. :rolleyes:

Of course you are correct, Fianna Failure is the only party that can govern well.

Sully

A lot of people described FG/Lab as a stricter government who took firm hold of the purse strings to keep a proper spending balance while FF were the party that offered everything, gave everything (and looked after themselves also!) and screwed the economy because they decided to scrap the tight hold on the purse approach. It was FG/Lab that got our country back on its feet each time, but were never given a chance to forward govern.

As regards to Wexford and the VEC - probably a Minister looking after his own backyard but I don't see a problem with resources being shared out and not just kept to the big cities.

Bards

Sully wrote: »

As regards to Wexford and the VEC - probably a Minister looking after his own backyard but I don't see a problem with resources being shared out and not just kept to the big cities.

I have a big issue with this.

Name just one Divisional HQ of a govt Department. that has its HQ in the Regional Capital I.E Waterford CIty.

HSE - Kilkenny
Tax Office - Wexford (Moved from Waterford)
VEC - Wexford (Moved from Waterford)

and the list goes on and on and on.

Evertytime there is a change in Govt. Some Minister or other rapes Waterford for their own ends

MOC88

Bards wrote: »

I have a big issue with this.

Name just one Divisional HQ of a govt Department. that has its HQ in the Regional Capital I.E Waterford CIty.

HSE - Kilkenny
Tax Office - Wexford (Moved from Waterford)
VEC - Wexford (Moved from Waterford)

and the list goes on and on and on.

Evertytime there is a change in Govt. Some Minister or other rapes Waterford for their own ends

Hold on for the party propoganda machine- they really ignore all the facts in tehir face and make excuse after excuse after their party-

Have to agree with what you have said - it is a seriously worrying trend- nobody has ever given a sh#te about Waterford- God help us if Cullen hadn't ben in last time- I might have hated FF but without him we wouldn't have benefited from a cent from the boom --- which we barely did tbh

Hopefully Waterford people start adopting a siege mentality and realise we have to look after ourselves before we start concerning ourselvers with anything outside of our City and County.

If the councils are split we'll never get them back and we don't have a single person who has any influence and none fo them with any interset in risking their paerty place for any bit of progress for Waterford.

I wouldn't trust one of those snakes in Governement and I definitely wouldn't apply logic to them. They've shown that they're riding out the trouble in high paid jobs and will take the credit after a decade and half of suffering from everyone else. What have they done a 12 year old wouldn't. I actually think a 12 year old could run the country better- or at least fairer

comeraghs

Here Here Moc88

wellboy76

I am reading a lot on Facebook from Gary Wyse and Mary Roche about the kilkenny minister for septic tanks wanting to downgrade Waterfords City status to Town status. How much truth is in this or is it scaremongering. Hogan wouldn't be this stupid too would he?

JenniFurr

Mary Roche wasn't saying they are literally downgrading us. She's referring to a document called "Our Cities: Drivers of National Competitiveness" by The National Competitiveness Council. Waterford was the only city not mentioned... at all. I think she's just implying that they basically see us as a town and not a city.

Jason Todd

Ignoring our City status would nearly be as bad as downgrading us from an outside investment perspective particularly. That Phil Hogan is one stupid man anyway, nothing would surprise me about him.

Sully

Merging the two Mary Roche threads together

On a personal, non-moderator level: Scaremongering News by Mary Roche.

Jason Todd

Sully wrote: »

Merging the two Mary Roche scaremongering news threads together

How unbiased of you! (Joking)

Max Powers

thomasm wrote: »

From Mary Roches blog
http://cllrmaryroche.blogspot.ie/2012/09/proposing-speech-for-motion-that.html?m=1

Hmmm, nice speech talking about vikings etc. Does Phil Hogan give a f*$k, i doubt it. The only thing Phil HOgan cares about is € and costs of councils. If councillors reduced their costs, abolished town councils, reduced their massive costs/expenses (we saw the individual costs posted here) then he might drop it. Mary et al should look at themselves before they themselves collectively torpedo the city council.

martingriff

fricatus wrote: »

Well, if we try to think about it logically, where does a city get its status? From the law of the land.

What law of the land does Waterford derive its status from? The 2001 Local Government Act which sets out that it has a City Council.

If changes are made and it then has only a County Council (like Longford, say), then does it have the status of a city?

Your guess is as good as mine!

Do not get your there. Sure aren't they doing the same with Limerick does that mean they are losing there CITY status. Its called a county council as it serves the county

sparkling sea

Waterford City has been decimated, gone is our once vibrant city. Our city councillors sat back and allowed this to happen, I don't think we need a city and county council and I know we can't afford both.

Waterford is like a ghost town after 6 most evenings.

While businesses in the city close because of policies including ridiculous parking cost, €3.60 for 2 hours and then your car has to moved to another space, not likely to happen ; rates that businesses can't afford to pay being used to pay for status that people can't get into town to see; I could go on and on.

It amazes me that it takes so many councillors and so much money to kill a city, yet thats exactly what has happened here

Bards

sparkling sea wrote: »

Waterford City has been decimated, gone is our once vibrant city. Our city councillors sat back and allowed this to happen, I don't think we need a city and county council and I know we can't afford both.

Waterford is like a ghost town after 6 most evenings.

While businesses in the city close because of policies including ridiculous parking cost, €3.60 for 2 hours and then your car has to moved to another space, not likely to happen ; rates that businesses can't afford to pay being used to pay for status that people can't get into town to see; I could go on and on.

It amazes me that it takes so many councillors and so much money to kill a city, yet thats exactly what has happened here

Nero fiddled, while Rome burned - perhaps?

Cabaal

sparkling sea wrote: »

Waterford is like a ghost town after 6 most evenings.

Indeed it is, but this is certainly nothing new.
During the boom years I used to meet my now wife in john roberts square after work and we always used to comment on how dead the place was.

The recession didn't bring on the ghost town....it was always there

fricatus

sparkling sea wrote: »

It amazes me that it takes so many councillors and so much money to kill a city, yet thats exactly what has happened here

I think that's unfair. Waterford City Council has done a lot locally in the past ten years to bolster the place.

Look at their involvement in the Tall Ships and every other festival (Spraoi, Harvest, the new Winterval, etc.). Look at the way they managed to get the new Waterford Crystal into the city centre. Look at the Viking Triangle, the refurbishment of the Bishop's Palace and the new Medieval Museum. Look at the redevelopment of the Quay... ehm, well... look at it in three years' time maybe! (...at least the flood wall is pretty cool)

On the minus side, rates are a big problem, but where in the country aren't they a problem? That's why we need proper reform of local government, not just a few council mergers. Parking... well that's the most divisive bugbear on this forum, but where you have free all-day parking in town, people will just drive into town to work and leave their car in a prime spot all day, while shoppers are forced out... I don't like paying for parking either, but it beats not being able to find a space - you can't have it both ways.

The real problem that Waterford has is that it perennially just doesn't get its fair share of the national cake. The best place to compare ourselves to is Galway, as there's really only about 15k in the difference between our populations - especially if you measure a little further out to take in the true hinterland*.

First of all, they have a university and an IT; we only have an IT. Their hospital is better resourced, despite WRH having more patients. AFAIK, we have fewer Gardai, despite our station having about the same level of activity. The IDA has overseen the creation of about 1,300 jobs in Galway this year. How many in Waterford? RTE are looking at closing their Waterford studio - there are only about 15 people employed here, but about 160 or so in Galway if I remember right. Minister Hogan plans to abolish our city council, but keep Galway's!

I could go on and on, but one theme keeps recurring: we aren't resourced as well as other cities from the national pie, particularly when compared to Galway, which is about the level we should be at. When it's pointed out, it's dismissed as "whinging". That is not a local failing - it's a failure of equality at national level.



* Galway city: 75,000 - Waterford city: 50,000
Galway hinterland 10 kms: 90,000 - Waterford: 70,000
Galway hinterland 25 kms: 150,000 - Waterford: 140,000

Max Powers

Nice post Fricatus. I have e-mailed Taoiseach, our TDs, Phil Hogan and Brendan Howlin saying that this will be a further blow to the region. I will be posting a letter also as I often think you get a better response that way.

I would urge others to contact TDs/Hogan/etc and others also pointing out the illogical course they are on at the moment: trying to merge Waterford without looking at Cork, Galway; the fact that Waterford City has 20% unemployment and that not having a strong city will mean the region suffers as a result.

nice_very

if any of you are aware of the facebook page "Call for a revolution in Ireland" there is now a Waterford branch, aiming to bring together/support all local campaign groups to try and mutually strengthen each groups numbers

https://www.facebook.com/CallForARevolutionInWaterfordIreland

Sully

Christ almighty, are we really that bad? Misinterputing / selective quoting of legislation which isn't even built to allow for a type of merged council. Moaning when other places are selected by employers instead of Waterford for jobs. The Minister will need to amend legislation accordingly to allow for the merger. There is nothing to suggest he will go a step further and remove City Status, which would be separate to the merging. It would be a sudden move that would cause a LOT of tension and problems, and a HUGE backlash.

To suggest that he would do this, is scaremongering of the highest order and political posturing. Much like Fianna Fails sudden change of heart towards the Household Tax, which they were planning to introduce some years ago and agreed with the EU/IMF that would be brought in as part of this agreement but now are opposing it!

In addition, there is nothing to suggest that one whole body representing the whole of Waterford would erode the City and turn employers away from Waterford (there hardly coming in their droves while we are separate councils!). If anything could be clutched at in terms of wild silly speculation it would be less funding for the county. But with such a merger, how the system works will need to be changed.

For what its worth, I don't see the point in the merger and I don't grasp why its just Wateford and Limerick. This was suggested sometime ago by a report commissioned by Fianna Fail, so again we appear to have political posturing by a FF Cllr.

fricatus

Sully wrote: »

Moaning when other places are selected by employers instead of Waterford for jobs.

Why shouldn't we "moan" though, when we're clearly not seeing the same levels of economic activity in this city as in other equally peripheral cities of similar size?

And fair enough, it's the company investing that chooses where to put its investment, I understand that completely. But what galls me is that there is just not a level playing pitch to begin with.

That's the government's problem to sort out, and no government has ever really done anything to sort it, apart from when McCreevy brought in the National Spatial Strategy (and then did nothing to implement it :rolleyes: but that's another story).

If I was a woman being paid 60% less than a man for doing the same job, or if I was a member of an ethnic minority not being recruited by the Garda because of my skin colour or religious beliefs, I would have plenty of avenues for complaint and plenty of quangos standing up for me. However, if I live in a city where the government spends a lower per-capita amount on healthcare, education or public security than it does in other cities, I have no recourse; worse, I'm dismissed as a "whinger" or a "moaner" and told "you can't have a university/airport/hospital at every crossroads you know!"

But the point is: we know that that's the case. That's why Waterford people aren't "moaning" about not having the national children's hospital, an airport with transatlantic service, an arena to rival the O2, or a stadium like the Aviva. Certain facilities are appropriate to a capital city after all. But then certain facilities are appropriate to regional centres.

All that we're moaning about is that we're not being treated equitably with cities of similar size, serving regions of similar size. The employment issue is just a consequence of this lack of fair treatment.

Max Powers

to bring it back to Mary Roche/councillors and issue with Council merging:

• Councillors were voluntary up to early 2000, I doubt their work has changed much so I feel it should go back to voluntary, reign in expenses, the weekend conferences on fossil fuels etc
• Reduce the number of councillors in the city, we aint that big, lets show the rest of the country, you dont need all these people
• more proactive action by our councillors, who complain that there jobs may be cut/city demoted due to cutbacks instigated by Phil Hogan, but havent made any significant cutbacks themselves as seen in latest costings published. Their lack of action here I find depressing, what are they more concerned with, the city or themselves
• We need to inform those in power (TDs etc) that the current proposal will be detrimental to Waterford and the south east.
  
  Proper cost benefit analysis of any proposed trips/expenditure especially abroad, I was shot down on this forum for questioning the benefit of Mary Roche going to a few US cities a couple of years ago, what did that achieve that a phone call wouldnt have? Mary O Halloran too, god bless her, she brought the husband along too, the council were looking for money back of that at one stage, i dont know what happened in the end.

Roanmore

Max Powers wrote: »

to bring it back to Mary Roche/councillors and issue with Council merging:

• Councillors were voluntary up to early 2000, I doubt their work has changed much so I feel it should go back to voluntary, reign in expenses, the weekend conferences on fossil fuels etc
• Reduce the number of councillors in the city, we aint that big, lets show the rest of the country, you dont need all these people
• more proactive action by our councillors, who complain that there jobs may be cut/city demoted due to cutbacks instigated by Phil Hogan, but havent made any significant cutbacks themselves as seen in latest costings published. Their lack of action here I find depressing, what are they more concerned with, the city or themselves
• We need to inform those in power (TDs etc) that the current proposal will be detrimental to Waterford and the south east.
  
  Proper cost benefit analysis of any proposed trips/expenditure especially abroad, I was shot down on this forum for questioning the benefit of Mary Roche going to a few US cities a couple of years ago, what did that achieve that a phone call wouldnt have? Mary O Halloran too, god bless her, she brought the husband along too, the council were looking for money back of that at one stage, i dont know what happened in the end.

Lot of sense spoken here.
Just on the point of reducing Councillors, is there a legal limit to how many / how few you can have, who decides?

Also, one thing that really annoys me is when somebody who's trying to make a point refers to Cromwell or Thatcher. Always see it before an election, somebody comes up with a proposal and instead of debating it somebody says it's Thatcherite, cue end of discussion. Great way to spook people.

MOC88

Roanmore wrote: »

Lot of sense spoken here.
Just on the point of reducing Councillors, is there a legal limit to how many / how few you can have, who decides?

Also, one thing that really annoys me is when somebody who's trying to make a point refers to Cromwell or Thatcher. Always see it before an election, somebody comes up with a proposal and instead of debating it somebody says it's Thatcherite, cue end of discussion. Great way to spook people.

Its just changing the subject so the issues can't be debated, I get the feeling you know this already though. The politicians are getting progressively more patronising but a lot more people are listening than before and shaking their heads in disbelief as during the boom most people didn't really think it was neccesary to have an interest as people believed if they worked hard they got their deserved reward and politicians really didn't have to do too much.
Its also similar to an appeal to authority (I think its called). ie. its right because its right and nothing else can change it because its right- flawed logic. You're not of my party so you're wrong - how do I know becaus eyou're not part of my party.
It reflects the generally very low coliqual politics we have here
Agree with the idea that coucilors pay should be cut to a fraction of what it is along with senators, td.s, ministers, taioseachs, all the previous retired etc. etc. but they'd cut numbers not salaries because that my get them shifting a bit uncomfortably on their seats
rant over:pac::pac::pac:

jad2007

Personnaly I think all of political scaremongering is going on here by two city councillors.

A HUGE oppurtunity was lost here when this merger was tabled. It is a done deal that city and county will merge. What should of happened was local representatives sitting down with Phil Hogan and presenting some conditions ( such as protecting our city status) and agreeing to the merger. It was always going to happen.

Instead what we have is populist ranting in order to sway votes which will acheive nothing.

There is no link between merger and losing status being put forward by either councillor.

This country badly needs local authority reform. € 1.1 million spent last year on thirty councillors in the city and county is madness. This merger will go through whether we like it or not. People need to start thinking strategically rather than locally.

Sully

fricatus wrote: »

Why shouldn't we "moan" though, when we're clearly not seeing the same levels of economic activity in this city as in other equally peripheral cities of similar size?

And fair enough, it's the company investing that chooses where to put its investment, I understand that completely. But what galls me is that there is just not a level playing pitch to begin with.

That's the government's problem to sort out, and no government has ever really done anything to sort it, apart from when McCreevy brought in the National Spatial Strategy (and then did nothing to implement it :rolleyes: but that's another story).

If I was a woman being paid 60% less than a man for doing the same job, or if I was a member of an ethnic minority not being recruited by the Garda because of my skin colour or religious beliefs, I would have plenty of avenues for complaint and plenty of quangos standing up for me. However, if I live in a city where the government spends a lower per-capita amount on healthcare, education or public security than it does in other cities, I have no recourse; worse, I'm dismissed as a "whinger" or a "moaner" and told "you can't have a university/airport/hospital at every crossroads you know!"

But the point is: we know that that's the case. That's why Waterford people aren't "moaning" about not having the national children's hospital, an airport with transatlantic service, an arena to rival the O2, or a stadium like the Aviva. Certain facilities are appropriate to a capital city after all. But then certain facilities are appropriate to regional centres.

All that we're moaning about is that we're not being treated equitably with cities of similar size, serving regions of similar size. The employment issue is just a consequence of this lack of fair treatment.

Its not possible to force companies to locate here. A lot of recent jobs were expansions and people were annoyed that the companies expanded in their current location rather than coming down here.

I want jobs in Waterford just like you and everyone else here does. But I have to be realistic. There is **** all the government can do only promote Waterford as an option when investors come and even at that they can't do much. Neither can our local TDs or Senators, which is why they never have done anything about it - even Sinn Fein, who have an elected official in Waterford despite the Waterford people not giving him a nod for a seat in the Dail.

But when they do, whats to say they are saying "We want to be located in a particular part of your country" meaning Waterford is simply out of the question? The country is not flowing with jobs right now and Waterford cannot have an expectation, especially considering the economic crisis that is upon is, that we should be getting jobs ahead of anywhere else.

We have a right to complain and be unhappy, but its gone beyond a joke. We now we have a small group of people trying to put fear out there that jobs will be lost for Waterford and our great City (note that many are forgetting Waterford is more than just the City) will now be a town. Neither of which are even on the table, even as a slight consideration. This is a typical thing done during referendums and election campaigns by the opposition - making stuff up, plucking stuff from the air that is complete nonsense and doing anything to save their neck or push their own agenda.

1) Waterford is not being removed its City Status. Its not part of the proposals and the proposals do not have a resulted effect of the status being removed.

2) A merger of the councils will not harm our prospect of getting jobs.

3) A merger will probably mean reform in how council operates for the whole of Waterford and will probably see a reduction in Councillors.

Is it any wonder why two of them are going to try put fear into the people of Waterford City that Minister Hogan is trying to destroy us, when their jobs are at risk? For a Fianna Fail Cllr to suddenly give out about Hogan when it was his own party that put us into this mess to begin with and commissioned the report which put the merger on the table is absolutely ridiculous.

MOC88

Sully wrote: »

Its not possible to force companies to locate here. A lot of recent jobs were expansions and people were annoyed that the companies expanded in their current location rather than coming down here.

I want jobs in Waterford just like you and everyone else here does. But I have to be realistic. There is **** all the government can do only promote Waterford as an option when investors come and even at that they can't do much. Neither can our local TDs or Senators, which is why they never have done anything about it - even Sinn Fein, who have an elected official in Waterford despite the Waterford people not giving him a nod for a seat in the Dail.

But when they do, whats to say they are saying "We want to be located in a particular part of your country" meaning Waterford is simply out of the question? The country is not flowing with jobs right now and Waterford cannot have an expectation, especially considering the economic crisis that is upon is, that we should be getting jobs ahead of anywhere else.

We have a right to complain and be unhappy, but its gone beyond a joke. We now we have a small group of people trying to put fear out there that jobs will be lost for Waterford and our great City (note that many are forgetting Waterford is more than just the City) will now be a town. Neither of which are even on the table, even as a slight consideration. This is a typical thing done during referendums and election campaigns by the opposition - making stuff up, plucking stuff from the air that is complete nonsense and doing anything to save their neck or push their own agenda.

1) Waterford is not being removed its City Status. Its not part of the proposals and the proposals do not have a resulted effect of the status being removed.

2) A merger of the councils will not harm our prospect of getting jobs.

3) A merger will probably mean reform in how council operates for the whole of Waterford and will probably see a reduction in Councillors.

Is it any wonder why two of them are going to try put fear into the people of Waterford City that Minister Hogan is trying to destroy us, when their jobs are at risk? For a Fianna Fail Cllr to suddenly give out about Hogan when it was his own party that put us into this mess to begin with and commissioned the report which put the merger on the table is absolutely ridiculous.

Everyone here understands that Waterford city's status is not being removed- whatever idiotic party tried that wouldn't have a td here for the next 50 years- of that I've no doubt
What people are generally annoyed about is constantly removing bits and pieces of Waterford over a continual period (vec etc. etc. I'm not getting in to an argument about how this makes sense when it doesn't) . Rather than reducing the number of councils why not reduce the numbers and wages of them. The Hse was made out of the four health boards- when they were consolidated it just wound up being a bloated beuruacracy, less councils won't mean better returns just less councils- the people elected will still get paid the same, it will reduce the costs but also the output, much less expenditure on wages drastically and reduce a small number of councillors with maintaining the same councils would be more effective. One of the big problems with this is it would probably have to be made nationwide which would erode the political election machines support at a ground level nationwide so this will be very unlikely.

Another argument made by others above is the lack of investment in to Waterford and its hinterland in relative terms to toehr areas... the govenment can't force jobs ehre but they certainly aren't helping --- they amde a laod of promises about how they were going to help and had plans to help waterford when talk talk closed for the rte cameras- haven't heard much about that since.

If you're replying to this post I really don't want to hear about any other party previous government's policies, don't want to hear about sinn fein, fine fael etc. etc. - I am not affiliated with any party and I really don't see the point of being- they are in my view electoral machines that have no purpose other than to get those in senior positions and their followers elected in to positions of power so they can ''buy votes'' to get re-elected

Sully

MOC88 wrote: »

Everyone here understands that Waterford city's status is not being removed- whatever idiotic party tried that wouldn't have a td here for the next 50 years- of that I've no doubt
What people are generally annoyed about is constantly removing bits and pieces of Waterford over a continual period (vec etc. etc. I'm not getting in to an argument about how this makes sense when it doesn't) . Rather than reducing the number of councils why not reduce the numbers and wages of them. The Hse was made out of the four health boards- when they were consolidated it just wound up being a bloated beuruacracy, less councils won't mean better returns just less councils- the people elected will still get paid the same, it will reduce the costs but also the output, much less expenditure on wages drastically and reduce a small number of councillors with maintaining the same councils would be more effective. One of the big problems with this is it would probably have to be made nationwide which would erode the political election machines support at a ground level nationwide so this will be very unlikely.

Another argument made by others above is the lack of investment in to Waterford and its hinterland in relative terms to toehr areas... the govenment can't force jobs ehre but they certainly aren't helping --- they amde a laod of promises about how they were going to help and had plans to help waterford when talk talk closed for the rte cameras- haven't heard much about that since.

If you're replying to this post I really don't want to hear about any other party previous government's policies, don't want to hear about sinn fein, fine fael etc. etc. - I am not affiliated with any party and I really don't see the point of being- they are in my view electoral machines that have no purpose other than to get those in senior positions and their followers elected in to positions of power so they can ''buy votes'' to get re-elected

Some would argue that a merger of councils will benefit the county, which is generally ignored. Stan Nangle, who ran for the local council for the Green Party, raised a valid argument:

From my perspective, a merger will allow the people of Tramore, Dunmore, Passage, Cheekpoint, Butlerstown, Kilmeaden, Dunhill and Fenor, who were born in the City, educated in the City, work in the City and shop in the City, to see their taxes being spent in the areas where they live, rather than having the money stop at an artificial line near the Ring Road.

Waterford County is the 2nd poorest Local Authority in the Country because the revenue from the economic activities of half its Citizens goes to the City Council and not to all the people of Waterford.

It also means that people who live in the City will be able to go out the road to Dunmore and Tramore on properly surfaced roads, to places with proper infrastructure - such as a sewage treatment plant for Dunmore, a park around the boating lake, regular bin collection on the beach in summer, and all the rest - and not be forced to suffere second class amenities because the City Council isn't responsible for the places they go to for recreation.

You cant brandish this government with the same stick that was/is being used for Fianna Fail. Nor can you claim its just this governments fault, when the opposition don't care either. That is why I am bringing other parties in.

What has the government done for Waterford in terms of jobs since the election? Probably not a lot, but I think they are trying to attract jobs to Ireland full stop without getting into specific locations as much. They have setup a programme for the South East and additional measures which were announced on the forum. But they are not in power that long. Rome wasn't built in a day, for a start!

Professey Chin

Thats a terrible argument since it simply wont happen. The only way any of those things would happen is if the City Councils boundary is extended (like it should be) to take those areas into account.
What would happen in reality is arguments about what councillors are on this new all encompassing council followed by lots of infighting over how much money goes to the east and how much to the west. Basically it'll be like the GAA county board we currently have which is a mess with constant bickering and absolutely zero focus.

Whats the point in bringing other parties in when they dont have any power? Opposition in our entire government system is pretty much pointless since all theyll do is whinge against whatever the parties in power say then vote against but be outnumbered and in the end not achieve anything.
FG/Labour hold all the cards and its their decisions being made now. Terrible decisions are being made but instead of actually explaining why all we hear is "we were left with a worse mess then we thought" but wont actually explain the mess.

7upfree

Sully wrote: »

For a Fianna Fail Cllr to suddenly give out about Hogan when it was his own party that put us into this mess to begin with and commissioned the report which put the merger on the table is absolutely ridiculous.

That is a ludicrous statement. Many other things were "on the table' from the previous Government and have been scrapped. Are you actually putting a political party before your City? If so, the mind truly boggles.