Insurance problems

SamHarris

Not sure if this is the right page for this thread, but it certainly has become a major personal issue so here goes.

Two years ago my mother was diagnosed with terminal breast cancer. She has been receptive to treatment and its all up in the air at the moment, so thats not where the real problem lies.

The problem comes with her life insurance, which she has been paying into since ther early 90's. It is a prett big sum of money, and obviously at this point it would be madness not to keep it.

The insurance company has recently began using various "tricks" to try and get the insurance cancelled. They first claimed the direct debit had been cancelled, a claim the bank denied but that required a solicitors letter with heavy fees for them to finally continue with the policy.

Now they are leaving the withdrawal of the DD untill later in the month - it is specifically set on the date that my dads pay check is lodged each month to ensure there is money there - the 26th. They now wait till the 25th, obviously the day with the least amount of money remaining to withdraw the money - often meaning I have to rush to the bank with money from my own account to prevent cancelation.

Is this all legal? If not where do I go and who do I talk to? Its already cost me 5000 euro over the last few months - all for things that shouldnt be happening.

Obviously the worst is the manner it is effecting my mother. She now cries every day, believing the only legacy she was leaving to her childern is being taken away. Her mood has taken an enormous hit over this and it is impacting heavily on the quality of life she should be enjoying for the time that remains.

I would appreciate any help on the issue, the entire thing is just making me sick right now.

Roisy7

Bastards. Sorry, just had to get that off my chest.

OP I'm so sorry about your mum, and this horrible situation this company are putting you in.

First off, have you talked to the bank? Perhaps they might be able to advise you on how to handle the sitaution. I know with any direct debit I have, they have let my ac go overdrawn rather than the bill not being paid. I'm sorry I can't think of any practical advice, but talk to the bank, ring the insurance company and try and speak to a human being, and then go from there.

And tbh, if you don't get any joy, shop them. Call the radio or go to the papers. They won't be long changing their tune then.

My best wishes to you and your mum x

Ellsbells

How can it have cost 5000 in that amount of time? Have you details of the solicitors charges?

jessiejam

I think the cost of the solicitor is the least of the OP's worries at this stage. Although I do agree with you that it should be looked at.

Try and contact the finacial ombudsman www.financialombudsman.ie and report this insurance company. Your poor mother must be under enough stress without this shower of sh1tes carrying on in this way.

I know with my insurance company if a payment is missed, it takes 45 days for the plan to lapse. It maybe an idea to gather all your documentation in relation to the insurance policy to be sure everything is in place. Also, read the small print.

There are clauses in some insurance policies that will not cover you for certain illnesses.

Might also be an idea to find a new solicitor that specialises in financial law.
All the best OP

tony81

Op, sorry to say but you sound a bit paranoid. Phone the insurance company and tell them to collect the DD on the first of the month.

SamHarris

tony81 wrote: »

Op, sorry to say but you sound a bit paranoid. Phone the insurance company and tell them to collect the DD on the first of the month.

Really? Maybe, but if you pay into a policy for over two decades without an issue and as soon as it looks like a payment may have to be made reasons are found to drop it? Sure could be coincidence, but I dont really care.

Maybe I wasnt clear - I do have a DD on a set date. The thing is you can only request a certain date - they can remove whenever they want. The company often choses to remove the money the day before the pay check is cashed. I have called on three different occasions to stress that we requested that date for a reason. The issue continued.


Even if it is "paranoia" then the issues involved are still real and I would appreciate it if thats what people focus on, rather than if the company is actually trying to activly find reasons to stop the policy.

I wasnt and am not calling for people to do anything to the insurance company, I was and am looking for help on how to deal with the problems. I didnt think this was the forum for people to address whether or not the reasons for the problems are my own or the companies but rather to give advice on how to prevent them.

Why would someone bother posting on this forum to just give their two cents on my state of mind? I am looking for help with a personal issue that will have an enormous effect on my mothers well being and possibly the rest of my life.

SamHarris

Ellsbells wrote: »

How can it have cost 5000 in that amount of time? Have you details of the solicitors charges?

The solicitor bill alone came to about 2500 (actually looking at it now it was 2800 - they knocked off 200 because of the nature of the problem). It consisted of them sending various letters back and forth to the company - showing that the bank was never requested to end payments and that therefore the policy was still in place. Letters and calls from myself alone had little effect - even when I attached a letter from the bank saying the DD had never been stopped from our end.

ABajaninCork

I would go the Financial Ombudsman route now. Solicitor's letters have had no effect, so maybe the FO route might. Has the solicitor advised legal action as yet?

Obviously, you'll have copies of the correspondence. Do you have a diary of who you spoke to within the company and when? Next time you have to call them, make a note of the date/time/name of person spoken to. You'll need all this if/when it gets to the FO or to court if you choose to go that way.

SamHarris

Thanks for everyones sympathy and good wishes, I appreciate it.

I would not really like to go to court with this, or even make too much of a fuss- I dont want my mother thinking Im obsessed with profiting from her death. For me the big issue is getting screwed over by a company that just wants to make a few bucks, but I could only imagine the preassure a court case would put on her.

Anything I could maybe say, just on the phone, that would make a difference in this case? or anything I could do myself bank wise, maybe request an overdraft with regard to just this one case?

ABajaninCork

Tell the next person at the insurance co, that you'll be making a call to the FO and naming names....

I did this once when my (UK) insurance company tried to screw me over. I knew I was in the right. In the end, I lost patience. Told them the time was now 1.15. If I did not get a call confirming what was already agreed by 2pm, then at 2.01, a call would be made to the FO and I would be naming names.

20 minutes later, I got a call from the supervisor admitting they were wrong and would be honouring the agreement made.

SamHarris

tony81 wrote: »

Op, sorry to say but you sound a bit paranoid. Phone the insurance company and tell them to collect the DD on the first of the month.

You know what, this post actually pisses me off.

Given that they have cancelled the policy and would not reinstate it despite documentary evidence they were wrong untill the threat of legal proceedings became apparant and that they removed the money mutliple times on a date that I have explicitly told them is the worst possible time ( A different date than the one on the DD document, people dont realise a DD does not have to be removed at the time requested) I think there is more than enough evidence that they would like this policy cancelled.

Insurance companies can and do search for ways not to have to pay out when they have to - it is no secret and nothing they have done is technically illegal at this point so its not too much of a stretch.

SamHarris

ABajaninCork wrote: »

Tell the next person at the insurance co, that you'll be making a call to the FO and naming names....

I did this once when my (UK) insurance company tried to screw me over. I knew I was in the right. In the end, I lost patience. Told them the time was now 1.15. If I did not get a call confirming what was already agreed by 2pm, then at 2.01, a call would be made to the FO and I would be naming names.

20 minutes later, I got a call from the supervisor admitting they were wrong and would be honouring the agreement made.

Thank you very much this is exactly the type of help I was looking for. Ill give it a shot tomorrow.

Just to say they havent yet managed to cancel the policy - they are just throwing obstacles in the way of it continuing right now.

tony81

you posted in PI. Perhaps Biz-Personal-Banking,insurance and pensions would be a better place to post for the type of advice you're looking for.

SamHarris

tony81 wrote: »

you posted in PI. Perhaps Biz-Personal-Banking,insurance and pensions would be a better place to post for the type of advice you're looking for.

There is far more involved for me and my family with this problem than just a business issue, I assumed people here would be more inclined to give advice that would take into account the extremly personal nature of the problem.

tony81

SamHarris wrote: »

There is far more involved for me and my family with this problem than just a business issue, I assumed people here would be more inclined to give advice that would take into account the extremly personal nature of the problem.

That's what I tried to do.

I worked in a financial services company before and we really weren't "out to get you". We usually erred on the side of caution and were eager to avoid legal action.

It sounds like, for one reason or another, there was a problem with the DD (which 99% of the time is a problem with the bank whether they admit it or not).

An unpaid DD results in a policy lapsing. Policies can be reinstated without evidence of health for a certain period after this. Automated letters get sent whenever a policy lapses.

Having said all that.. **** happens. Human error, bank errors, computer errors...

I honestly think you're being paranoid as the financial services ombudsman would definitely take your side if the assurance company you are dealing with was actually trying to rip you off.

Chill for a minute, outline your complaints in a letter and try to relax.

Ellsbells

You are after spending 3k on solicitors why not just leave an extra payment in the bank account to cover the direct debit no matter what date it is applied. Stay one step ahead.

Direct debits are variable payments so the dates can vary. Standing orders are fixed date payments.

username123

Ellsbells wrote: »

You are after spending 3k on solicitors why not just leave an extra payment in the bank account to cover the direct debit no matter what date it is applied. Stay one step ahead.

Direct debits are variable payments so the dates can vary. Standing orders are fixed date payments.

+1
I totally agree with this. I understand that you are feeling a bit sensitive about things and its a difficult time for you but I cant help but think you are making a rod to beat yourself with. Leave enough money in the back to cover a DD on any date or arrange with the bank to allow the account to go overdrawn so the DD is paid.

Im not sure how the insurance company would even be aware of health problems of their customers?

Keepa diary of events and if it becomes too much for you, report them to the Financial Ombudsman - here is a link to the correct website, it might even be worth phoning them to discuss without making an official complaint.

SamHarris

Ellsbells wrote: »

You are after spending 3k on solicitors why not just leave an extra payment in the bank account to cover the direct debit no matter what date it is applied. Stay one step ahead.

Direct debits are variable payments so the dates can vary. Standing orders are fixed date payments.

Ive done that with the money I could get together, its about 2000 now. But money gets spent, especially ina situation like this and lawyers can be payed back over time - putting money in the bank is different.

SamHarris

username123 wrote: »

+1
Im not sure how the insurance company would even be aware of health problems of their customers?
.

We have no idea how they found out, but they brought it up in a particular conversation so they do know.

SamHarris

Ellsbells wrote: »

Direct debits are variable payments so the dates can vary. Standing orders are fixed date payments.

Thanks, Ill see if I can set one up. If I can there will be no issue. Its the manner in which the date changes that causes the problems.

m'lady

Surely just getting one months installment extra in the account would be a lot easier that paying solicitors? That doesn't make sense to me at all to be honest.
In relation to the insurance company being aware of this, it probably had to be disclosed when it was up for renewal?

Ellsbells

Yeah I dont get that bit either.

Was it a serious illness policy or plain life cover? There is no way they could know unless they were told.

SamHarris

m'lady wrote: »

Surely just getting one months installment extra in the account would be a lot easier that paying solicitors? That doesn't make sense to me at all to be honest.
In relation to the insurance company being aware of this, it probably had to be disclosed when it was up for renewal?

Ok I really cant explain it any better.

I needed the solicitors because they claimed the payments had been cancelled by the bank - a claim the bank denied. This ment the policy was cancelled - I COULDNT make a payment, they wouldnt accept it untill the solicitors got involved.

I didnt get a solicitor to walk in and make a months payment.

SamHarris

Wait, just thought of an idea. I might make an account purely for this purpose - so that the money doesnt get spent elsewhere. Does anyone know if an insurance company has to take the money from an account linked with the person being covered?

I should have mentioned my Dad is an alcoholic - hence the money being near impossible to just be left in the account for this purpose.

SamHarris

With regard to them knowing, that was how it all stared, and why I have been suspicious since.

3 weeks after the diagnoses they said the policy would be cancelled without a full physical. No one had notified them. The last time a physical was requested was so long ago my mother believes she never had one - or at least that it was some time in the 90's.

m'lady

SamHarris wrote: »

m'lady wrote: »

Surely just getting one months installment extra in the account would be a lot easier that paying solicitors? That doesn't make sense to me at all to be honest.
In relation to the insurance company being aware of this, it probably had to be disclosed when it was up for renewal?

Ok I really cant explain it any better.

I needed the solicitors because they claimed the payments had been cancelled by the bank - a claim the bank denied. This ment the policy was cancelled - I COULDNT make a payment, they wouldnt accept it untill the solicitors got involved.

I didnt get a solicitor to walk in and make a months payment.

I never said that you got a solicitor to make a months payment.

Is there anyway you could tell them that you will pay by cheque/bank draft every month or does it have to be a DD?
I'd second the advice on contacting the ombudsman also. The fact that you have already had a solicitor involved and it went in your favour is good.

Also if the insurance company blamed the bank then surely the bank could offer you some advice/help? As in an overdraft facility in the event of the funds not being there for the insurance company. If your concerned that your Dad will access the money I don't see any reason why they won't take it from your account.

SamHarris

m'lady wrote: »

I never said that you got a solicitor to make a months payment.

Is there anyway you could tell them that you will pay by cheque/bank draft every month or does it have to be a DD?
I'd second the advice on contacting the ombudsman also. The fact that you have already had a solicitor involved and it went in your favour is good.

Also if the insurance company blamed the bank then surely the bank could offer you some advice/help? As in an overdraft facility in the event of the funds not being there for the insurance company. If your concerned that your Dad will access the money I don't see any reason why they won't take it from your account.

Ah sorry, I was just trying to say that a lawyer at that point was required, it was not a frivilous descison on my part.

Might do my own account. Their is a guy in the bank that really helped out my mom, did alot of calling to the insurance agency and what not explaing it was not true that it had been canceled on their end. This month he allowed an overdraft because he happened to have caught the transaction being put through the day before our paycheck - which was incredibly nice of him. But the way my parents credit rating is, it wont be allowed by other employees or for other reasons, so its not exactly something I want to rely on.

irishlady29

Sounds incredibly stressful OP.

My advice to you would be....

Write a detailed letter of complaint to the Insurance company, outlining dates/times/people you have spoken too. As far as I am aware, companies that are regulated by the financial regulator have to act on complaints with in a certain time frame. Request all correspondance by letter/email. That way you have proof. Also I would look for the name of the manager and advise that under the circumstances that you wish to deal with them directly.
Would it be worth your while speaking with Citizen's advice or MABS?

Wish you well OP. I am disgusted at how people can be so cruel

jimmycrackcorm

I don't understand why the op isn't suing the insurance company to recover the legal outlay given that it is the fault of the insurance company.

Op should inform the company that they are contacting the FSO and do so outlining the problems so as to pre-empt the insurance company from trying anything on.

littlefriend

tony81 wrote: »

That's what I tried to do.

I worked in a financial services company before and we really weren't "out to get you". We usually erred on the side of caution and were eager to avoid legal action.

It sounds like, for one reason or another, there was a problem with the DD (which 99% of the time is a problem with the bank whether they admit it or not).

An unpaid DD results in a policy lapsing. Policies can be reinstated without evidence of health for a certain period after this. Automated letters get sent whenever a policy lapses.

Having said all that.. **** happens. Human error, bank errors, computer errors...

I also have a background in life assurance and I agree with the above.

SamHarris wrote: »

Wait, just thought of an idea. I might make an account purely for this purpose - so that the money doesnt get spent elsewhere. Does anyone know if an insurance company has to take the money from an account linked with the person being covered?

There is no reason that I can think of that the money couldn't be from your account and even if it does need to be taken from an account in your mothers name then go with her to the bank and set one up specifically for this purpose. You could then set up a standing order from your own account to this account to ensure that the money would always be there. In any event, you should change the account so that your dad doesn't have access to it. Will save a lot of worry/heartache.

Additionally, a policy should not lapse after 1 missed payment. Normal practice would be that the missed premium would be collected the next month (ie there would be a double payment the second month) and then revert to normal.

The only reason I can think that the date changed for the dd was because the policy was reinstated and maybe new dd mandate forms were submitted during the process which during processing meant the date was changed? Companies like these usually have a few collection dates during the month.

I have every sympathy for your mum and wish you the best of luck. (sorry if post is a bit all over the place - baby climbing all over me).

edit: just a thought - maybe they asked for the medical before reinstating the policy - which would be normal practice if it had gone beyond a couple of months of lapsing. I realise it lapsed due to their error but the subsequent stuff that happened is, in my opinion, due to that initial error - the rest sounds like normal practice when there is a standard policy reinstatement. Echoing what @tony81 said - it is not in the best interest of the company to act in this manner as it will almost definitely invite legal action as well as negative press etc. They will not pay out if there is any reason for them not to but tricking people into having their life/SI cover cancelled is foolhardy practice to say the least.

As a matter of interest, did they provide evidence that the bank had cancelled the dd? If they cannot provide this then I'd imagine you are absolutely entitled to be reimbursed your solicitors fees. I think you should contact the ombudsman about that as has been suggested. Advice on how to make a complaint is detailed here - http://www.financialombudsman.ie/making-a-complaint/default.asp. I'd suggest giving them a ring first off to discuss it, I have found them to be very helpful in the past. Lo Call: 1890 88 20 90/ Tel: +353 1 6620899.

I hope this post doesn't come across as uncaring or cold - I am looking at it without the emotional involvement you have and with some experience of how these systems operate. Again, you have my sympathies for your mothers condition as well as trying to sort stuff like this out over the phone with a customer service agent who doesn't care or isn't trained.