Why I believe that there will be no "rapture" prior to the return of Christ.

Run_to_da_hills

This is another irritating doctrine that seems to have its foundation built on sand when I hear it preached in Churches. I believe that it is a relatively modern concept, not historically held by any segment of the Church prior to the mid 1800's.

A few logical reasons why I would not accept it.

Why should Jesus show favouritism to 21 Century Christians living in their cosy semi detached houses in predominantly western civilisation by whisking them into the clouds out of harms way prior to a time of immense persecution and trouble while in the past millions of Christians including the very Apostles themselves have been slaughtered and beheaded for their beliefs.

Was Job raptured out of his time of tribulation (testing)? NO

Was King David raptured out of all his tribulation? NO

Was Jesus or any of the Apostles raptured out of their persecution? NO

Was St Paul raptured out of all his tribulations? NO

I believe the Godly and ungodly will live side by side until the end of age when Christ returns as foretold in the parable of the wheat and the tares.

I believe the tribulation period is closer than we think, (Interesting concept CT trailer). The global political and economic climate is almost ripe. And It will come suddenly when least expected. (1 Thessalonians 5:3)

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years Revelation 20:4

The above verse in itself is proof in itself that Christian believers will live among the ungodly during the tribulation. There are lots of other scripture verses that debunks the rapture theory.

tommy2bad

Never heard the rapture preached in any church I'v attended.
I may need to get out more.

smcgiff

Is the Rapture not associated more (exclusively?) with evangelical protestant religions?

dvae

to be honest i never heard anything other than Christ returning in the time of the end.
from what i understand there will be many tribulations such as earthquakes and food shortages
before Christs arrival.
i think the bible describes that the righteous will be saved just before the second coming, similar
to when God let lot and his family leave Sodom and Gomorrah just before they were destroyed.

Matthew 24:40

Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.

Seaneh

dvae wrote: »

to be honest i never heard anything other than Christ returning in the time of the end.
from what i understand there will be many tribulations such as earthquakes and food shortages
before Christs arrival.
i think the bible describes that the righteous will be saved just before the second coming, similar
to when God let lot and his family leave Sodom and Gomorrah just before they were destroyed.

Matthew 24:40

Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.

The quote in blue.

Read it in context, then tell me, do you want to be taken or left behind?


It's just about the most misused piece of scripture by evangelicals.



My €0.02c


I don't believe in the idea of the rapture.
I think it's bases on really, really, really far fetched "logic" people are taking things from the text that just isn't there.

JimiTime

Seaneh wrote: »

The quote in blue.

Read it in context, then tell me, do you want to be taken or left behind?


It's just about the most misused piece of scripture by evangelicals.

Oh yeah. Mad isn't it. Context is just sooo important! Cheers for that Seaneh.

My €0.02c


I don't believe in the idea of the rapture.
I think it's bases on really, really, really far fetched "logic" people are taking things from the text that just isn't there.

TBH, I've never discussed it before. I'd love to see a good discussion about it, see what its all about. I've always believed that we'll all be here to the end, and that the elect will be saved and the wicked destroyed.

Run_to_da_hills

smcgiff wrote: »

Is the Rapture not associated more (exclusively?) with evangelical protestant religions?

I have heard it mentioned in few churches when the subject is brought up but found more reference to it in Christian book shops and on websites.

philologos

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

This is another irritating doctrine that seems to have its foundation built on sand when I hear it preached in Churches. I believe that it is a relatively modern concept, not historically held by any segment of the Church prior to the mid 1800's.

A few logical reasons why I would not accept it.

Why should Jesus show favouritism to 21 Century Christians living in their cosy semi detached houses in predominantly western civilisation by whisking them into the clouds out of harms way prior to a time of immense persecution and trouble while in the past millions of Christians including the very Apostles themselves have been slaughtered and beheaded for their beliefs.

Was Job raptured out of his time of tribulation (testing)? NO

Was King David raptured out of all his tribulation? NO

Was Jesus or any of the Apostles raptured out of their persecution? NO

Was St Paul raptured out of all his tribulations? NO

I believe the Godly and ungodly will live side by side until the end of age when Christ returns as foretold in the parable of the wheat and the tares.

I believe the tribulation period is closer than we think, (Interesting concept CT trailer). The global political and economic climate is almost ripe. And It will come suddenly when least expected. (1 Thessalonians 5:3)

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years Revelation 20:4

The above verse in itself is proof in itself that Christian believers will live among the ungodly during the tribulation. There are lots of other scripture verses that debunks the rapture theory.

I think the tribulation refers to the entire time from Jesus' ascension to His return. The signs in Mark 13 and Matthew 24 for example are already amongst us.

Run_to_da_hills

philologos wrote: »

I think the tribulation refers to the entire time from Jesus' ascension to His return. The signs in Mark 13 and Matthew 24 for example are already amongst us.

That's the belief that I would go along with.

There are some that believe Jesus returns twice, ie to meet and whisk away the believers prior to the 7 year tribulation period spoken of Daniel and again after to defeat Satan and judge humanity.

enfant terrible

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

This is another irritating doctrine that seems to have its foundation built on sand when I hear it preached in Churches. I believe that it is a relatively modern concept, not historically held by any segment of the Church prior to the mid 1800's.

A few logical reasons why I would not accept it.

Why should Jesus show favouritism to 21 Century Christians living in their cosy semi detached houses in predominantly western civilisation by whisking them into the clouds out of harms way prior to a time of immense persecution and trouble while in the past millions of Christians including the very Apostles themselves have been slaughtered and beheaded for their beliefs.

Was Job raptured out of his time of tribulation (testing)? NO

Was King David raptured out of all his tribulation? NO

Was Jesus or any of the Apostles raptured out of their persecution? NO

Was St Paul raptured out of all his tribulations? NO

I believe the Godly and ungodly will live side by side until the end of age when Christ returns as foretold in the parable of the wheat and the tares.

I believe the tribulation period is closer than we think, (Interesting concept CT trailer). The global political and economic climate is almost ripe. And It will come suddenly when least expected. (1 Thessalonians 5:3)

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years Revelation 20:4

The above verse in itself is proof in itself that Christian believers will live among the ungodly during the tribulation. There are lots of other scripture verses that debunks the rapture theory.

We actually live in the most peaceful time in history
http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violence.html

I suppose its our arrogance that we feel that the rapture will occur around our lifetime.

Imagine living through the black plague or spanish flu, could understand them thinking the end was coming.

Run_to_da_hills

enfant terrible wrote: »

We actually live in the most peaceful time in history.

It is also written: "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape". 1 Thessalonians 5:3

Some would call it the calm before the storm.

antiskeptic

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

That's the belief that I would go along with.

There are some that believe Jesus returns twice, ie to meet and whisk away the believers prior to the 7 year tribulation period spoken of Daniel and again after to defeat Satan and judge humanity.

Then you've Benny Hinn, who reckoned Jesus would appear on stage with him on one of his 'crusades'. That makes three appearances before the end comes..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIhVAO1uqO4


As it turned out, Jesus didn't show up.

Run_to_da_hills

antiskeptic wrote: »

Then you've Benny Hinn, who reckoned Jesus would appear on stage with him on one of his 'crusades'. That makes three appearances before the end comes..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIhVAO1uqO4


As it turned out, Jesus didn't show up.

Benny Sin.

J C

No: Believers will have to endure throughout the tribulation period.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Why I believe that there will be no "rapture" prior to the return of Christ.

I believe that too!!!

The 'rapture' is the first Coming of Jesus.:)
... during a period of superficial 'normality' when society is pre-occupied with ... and thinks that it has, at last, produced total 'peace and safety'.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

This is another irritating doctrine that seems to have its foundation built on sand when I hear it preached in Churches. I believe that it is a relatively modern concept, not historically held by any segment of the Church prior to the mid 1800's.

The truth seems to irritate you!!!

The imminence of Christ's return for the Saved goes right back to Apostolic times ... and thus, it is as old as the Church.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

A few logical reasons why I would not accept it.

Why should Jesus show favouritism to 21 Century Christians living in their cosy semi detached houses in predominantly western civilisation by whisking them into the clouds out of harms way prior to a time of immense persecution and trouble while in the past millions of Christians including the very Apostles themselves have been slaughtered and beheaded for their beliefs.

It's a spiritual issue ... the apparent 'normality' of the time of the rapture, is an illusion, as the forces of Satan are actually about to be unleashed without restraint on Earth ... and without a Rapture, the Saved would be spiritually over-run by Satan ... thereby potentially overturning the Divine guarantee to the Saved ... and God will not allow that.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Was Job raptured out of his time of tribulation (testing)? NO

Was King David raptured out of all his tribulation? NO

Was Jesus or any of the Apostles raptured out of their persecution? NO

Was St Paul raptured out of all his tribulations? NO

... the rapture marks the eve of the explosion of unrestrained Satanism on earth.

This is unprecedented ... at least since The Flood.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I believe the Godly and ungodly will live side by side until the end of age when Christ returns as foretold in the parable of the wheat and the tares.

I agree that the Godly and ungodly will live side by side until the end of the Church age, when Christ make His first return ... at the Rapture

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I believe the tribulation period is closer than we think, (Interesting concept CT trailer). The global political and economic climate is almost ripe. And It will come suddenly when least expected. (1 Thessalonians 5:3)

Thessalonians ... talks about the lead up to the end of the Church era ... and the Rapture ... during a period of relative 'normality'.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years Revelation 20:4

... Revelation 1-3 is a review of the Church era ... and Revelation 4-7 is an account of the events leading to the Rapture ... from a Heavenly perspective.
Revelation 8-19 is an account of the Great Tribulation up to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ in glory, to defeat of the Beast and the False Prophet at Armageddon.
Revelation 20-22 is an account of the post-Armageddon world.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The above verse in itself is proof in itself that Christian believers will live among the ungodly during the tribulation. There are lots of other scripture verses that debunks the rapture theory.

... er ... NO !!!:)

J C

No: Believers will have to endure throughout the tribulation period.

Seaneh wrote: »

.36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away.
That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

The quote in blue
Read it in context, then tell me, do you want to be taken or left behind?

These verses of Scripture are all about the (first) return of Jesus Christ ... so it is obvious who will be taken ... the Saved ... by the Son of Man, who has returned for them!!!

Seaneh wrote: »

It's just about the most misused piece of scripture by evangelicals.

How so??

Seaneh

Because in the context of the story, the ones "taken" will be the wicked, not the not the "saved".

You quoted the second part of a parabel without the first half.

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

In the first half of the story the ones "taken away" were taken away by the flood.


The ones "taken" away in the second half of the story will be "taken away" in the same way as in the days on Noah.

ie, They will be " eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage.... And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away".




Read the text for what it says, not what you want it to say.

J C

No: Believers will have to endure throughout the tribulation period.

Seaneh wrote: »

Because in the context of the story, the ones "taken" will be the wicked, not the not the "saved".

You quoted the second part of a parabel without the first half.

In the first half of the story the ones "taken away" were taken away by the flood.


The ones "taken" away in the second half of the story will be "taken away" in the same way as in the days on Noah.

ie, They will be " eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage.... And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away".


Read the text for what it says, not what you want it to say.

I started at Matthew 24:36

36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father.

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

This states that the times will be as evil as in the time immediately before The Flood.

Interestingly, for the Long Agers ... Jesus Himself, confirms here the veracity of the Flood and the fact that everyone except those on the Ark perished!!!

Jesus is the new 'Ark' ... that Saves people from the second worldwide Tribulation in History.

Please note the apparent 'normality' in the lead up to both The Flood and The Rapture.
Only Noah and his immediate family realised what was about to happen before the Flood ... and, similarly only the Saved will realise that the times are ripe for the Great Tribulation ... and the Rapture (although they will not know the exact day or the hour).

Seaneh

So you think it was noah and his family who were swept away in the first half of the parable?

Because in a parable, the same story is told twice to stress a point...



The point of the parable wasn't to tell of the "rapture" (an invented word from the mid 1800's and completely alien to the church fathers) but to tell the disciples to live faithfully because they will never know when their time (and time in general) is up, to not let their faith and faithfulness falter.



You are simply misunderstanding the intention and the context of the passage.

Run_to_da_hills

J C wrote: »

I believe that too!!!

The 'rapture' is the first Coming of Jesus.:)
... during a period of superficial 'normality' when society is pre-occupied with ... and thinks that it has, at last, produced total 'peace and safety'.

I believe Christ appears on this earth in the physical form just twice. He appeared once already and the second time when he defeats Satan at the end of age.

J C wrote: »

The truth seems to irritate you!!!

No the concept of a pre tribulation rapture irritates me.

J C wrote: »

The imminence of Christ's return for the Saved goes right back to Apostolic times ... and thus, it is as old as the Church.

Again I believe this also but only at the end of age.

J C wrote: »

It's a spiritual issue ... the apparent 'normality' of the time of the rapture, is an illusion, as the forces of Satan are actually about to be unleashed without restraint on Earth ... and without a Rapture, the Saved would be spiritually over-run by Satan .. thereby potentially overturning the Divine guarantee to the Saved ... and God will not allow that.

.

That's impossible and unbiblical.

Satan can destroy the body but he cannot destroy the soul of the believer.

"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand". John 10:29

"And fear not them who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell". Matthew 10:28

J C wrote: »

... the rapture marks the eve of the explosion of unrestrained Satanism on earth.

This is unprecedented ... at least since The Flood.

Satanism is nothing new but has just got more predominant in this age thanks to television, internet, and what ever other mediums. it has now well and truly infiltrated the Churches, Governments, music and entertainment industries.

According to pre tribulation rapture believers the "official" start of the tribulation period begins when Satan gets cast down to earth and enters the mind of a certain individual known as the "man of sin:", "lawlessness". Satan cannot create a human being to carry out his wickedness but has only the ability to host the mind of a person.

Also according to scripture this is suppose to happen after the host receives the mortal head wound.

If the above happens and you are still about you will be in for a big shock. :eek:

This will also be the ultimate acid test for pre tribulation rapture believers.

J C wrote: »

I agree that the Godly and ungodly will live side by side until the end of the Church age, when Christ make His first return ... at the Rapture

Again I believe this when Christ goes to separate the chaff from the wheat at the end of age according to matthew 3-12.

J C wrote: »

Revelation 20-22 is an account of the post-Armageddon world.

I would also believe the same however I believe Christians we will have to live through it.

Morbert

I was under the impression that the rapture is very much a fringe American position.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Q2J1VyGPo8

Run_to_da_hills

Morbert wrote: »

I was under the impression that the rapture is very much a fringe American position.

It's a wonder because its flogged to death on nearly all the American God channels,

Another reason I have to hide the Sky remote from the old man.

PDN

Morbert wrote: »

I was under the impression that the rapture is very much a fringe American position.

The teaching of a pre-tribulation rapture was actually developed by an Irishman - John Nelson Darby, a 19th Century Church of Ireland rector in Wicklow.

antiskeptic

PDN wrote: »

The teaching of a pre-tribulation rapture was actually developed by an Irishman - John Nelson Darby, a 19th Century Church of Ireland rector in Wicklow.

He was a plastic paddy

John Nelson Darby was born in Westminster, London, and christened at St. Margaret's on 3 March 1801.

dvae

Seaneh wrote: »

The quote in blue.

Read it in context, then tell me, do you want to be taken or left behind?

what dose it matter, if one is taken or left behind. i think the point is there is going to be consequences for one of the men in the field regardless.
Ive always understood this to mean that the righteous man would be
some how separated from the unrighteous man or protected from harm
during Armageddon.

Seaneh wrote: »

Was Jesus or any of the Apostles raptured out of their persecution? NO

oh by the way, why would Jesus need to be raptured from his persecution.
did Jesus not come to the earth to be persecuted and die for our sins

Seaneh

The point is that they won't be "raptured" at all.

You and JC and others are seeing stuff in the text that isn't there.

You are only seeing it because you were told it was there by pastors/elders/people who should know better.


It's a crap doctrine.

J C

No: Believers will have to endure throughout the tribulation period.

Seaneh wrote: »

So you think it was noah and his family who were swept away in the first half of the parable?

Because in a parable, the same story is told twice to stress a point...

This isn't a parable ... it is a historical narrative (about the times leading up to The Flood) compared with a Prophecy (about the times leading up to The First Return or Coming of Jesus Christ).

... the taking away of the lost in Noahs day by a Flood ... logically isn't the same as the 'taking' of the Saved by Jesus Christ at the Rapture ... and exactly who is being taken (in the Rapture) is put beyond all doubt in verses 30-31.
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Seaneh wrote: »

The point of the parable wasn't to tell of the "rapture" (an invented word from the mid 1800's and completely alien to the church fathers) but to tell the disciples to live faithfully because they will never know when their time (and time in general) is up, to not let their faith and faithfulness falter.

... it isn't a parable ... its a historical narrative and a prophecy.
It also reminds everybody that they may die suddenly at time they least expect (before the end of the Church age) or they may be raptured at time they least expect (at the end of the Church age).

Seaneh wrote: »

You are simply misunderstanding the intention and the context of the passage.
It was everybody except Noah and his family that was swept away by the Flood.

... so what?

Noah and his family were saved by the Ark at the start of Great Flood ... and similarly people will be saved by the latter-day Ark ... Jesus Christ at the start of the Great Tribulation.

This is commonly called 'The Rapture' ... but it is more accurately, the Great Gathering and Taking Away.

... and just like Noah was put beyond the physical reach of the waters in the Great Flood by the Ark ... the Saved will be put beyond the spiritual reach of the Antichrist in the Great tribulation by Jesus Christ and His angels.

Seaneh

I reckon you lot are just in for another round of the great disappointment.

Modern nonsense.

Juza1973

Well it is a doctrine that is impossible to prove wrong until it is "too late", as implausible it is. We don't need to understand fully God's plan to lead us to Paradise, we need to pray that he will take us with him in Glory!

J C

No: Believers will have to endure throughout the tribulation period.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I believe Christ appears on this earth in the physical form just twice. He appeared once already and the second time when he defeats Satan at the end of age.

... Jesus has already defeated Satan ... by His Saving death for sins.

Jesus rescues His Elect before the Great Tribulation ... and comes back a Second time to destroy the Anti-christ and the False Prophet

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

No the concept of a pre tribulation rapture irritates me.

Why?

wrote:

Originally Posted by J C
The imminence of Christ's return for the Saved goes right back to Apostolic times ... and thus, it is as old as the Church.

Run_to_da_hills
Again I believe this also but only at the end of age.

Precisely, The Rapture occurs at end of the Church era ... and ushers in the Great Tribulation.

wrote:

Originally Posted by J C
It's a spiritual issue ... the apparent 'normality' of the time of the rapture, is an illusion, as the forces of Satan are actually about to be unleashed without restraint on Earth ... and without a Rapture, the Saved would be spiritually over-run by Satan .. thereby potentially overturning the Divine guarantee to the Saved ... and God will not allow that.

Run_to_da_hills
That's impossible and unbiblical.

Satan can destroy the body but he cannot destroy the soul of the believer.

"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand". John 10:29

"And fear not them who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell". Matthew 10:28

All very true ... but the situation at the point of the Rapture will be so dire that God will have to physically intervene to ensure the Salvation of the already Saved.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Satanism is nothing new but has just got more predominant in this age thanks to television, internet, and what ever other mediums. it has now well and truly infiltrated the Churches, Governments, music and entertainment industries.

According to pre tribulation rapture believers the "official" start of the tribulation period begins when Satan gets cast down to earth and enters the mind of a certain individual known as the "man of sin:", "lawlessness". Satan cannot create a human being to carry out his wickedness but has only the ability to host the mind of a person.

Also according to scripture this is suppose to happen after the host receives the mortal head wound.

If the above happens and you are still about you will be in for a big shock. :eek:

I won't be alone!!!!:)

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

This will also be the ultimate acid test for pre tribulation rapture believers.

... it will also usher in the ultimate test for the unbelievers ... The Mark!!!:)

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Again I believe this when Christ goes to separate the chaff from the wheat at the end of age according to matthew 3-12.

That is the Great Judgement ... at the end of time ... and includes the Tribulation Saints.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I would also believe the same however I believe Christians we will have to live through it.

It will be impossible for Christians to live through the Great Tribulation ... Salvation after the Rapture will be by martyrdom at the point of taking/refusing the Mark ... and it is the removal of the Christians (and with them, the Holy Spirit) at the Rapture that allows the Great Tribulation to begin.

J C

No: Believers will have to endure throughout the tribulation period.

PDN wrote: »

The teaching of a pre-tribulation rapture was actually developed by an Irishman - John Nelson Darby, a 19th Century Church of Ireland rector in Wicklow.

Darby may have copyright on the name ... but certainly not on the concept.:)

J C

No: Believers will have to endure throughout the tribulation period.

Seaneh wrote: »

I reckon you lot are just in for another round of the great disappointment.

Modern nonsense.

If it doesn't happen, and you are ready, there is no harm done ... but if it happens and you're not Saved ... then it's next stop ... the Mark ... and Armageddon where people call on the mountains to fall on them ... and seek death ... but are unable to find it!!!!:eek:

J C

No: Believers will have to endure throughout the tribulation period.

Juza1973 wrote: »

Well it is a doctrine that is impossible to prove wrong until it is "too late", as implausible it is.

There's the thing!!!
Just like belief in God ... belief in The Rapture has no downsides, if you are wrong ... while refusal to believe has very great downsides ... if you are wrong.

In secular affairs, favouring actions with the least downsides is known as the 'precautionary principle'.

Juza1973 wrote: »

We don't need to understand fully God's plan to lead us to Paradise, we need to pray that he will take us with him in Glory!

Amen to that ... especially, if and when the Antichrist is 'breathing down your neck'!!!:)

antiskeptic

.. it will also usher in the ultimate test for the unbelievers ... The Mark!!!

Giving new meaning to the notion of someone having a chip on their shoulder..

antiskeptic

J C wrote: »

There's the thing!!!
Just like belief in God ... it has no downsides if you are wrong ... while refusal to believe has very great downsides ... if you are wrong.

In secular affairs, it's known as the 'precautionary principle'.

AKA 'covering your arse'.

I'd have every sympathy for an unbeliever maintaining their unbelief on the grounds of not wanting to touch a god like that with a 10 ft pole (Bez obrazy dla Polaków jest przeznaczony!)

J C

No: Believers will have to endure throughout the tribulation period.

antiskeptic wrote: »

He was a plastic paddy

Was he a Paddy at all?????:)

Quote:
John Nelson Darby was born in Westminster, London, and christened at St. Margaret's on 3 March 1801.

J C

No: Believers will have to endure throughout the tribulation period.

antiskeptic wrote: »

Giving new meaning to the notion of someone having a chip on their shoulder..

It'll be in the right hand or the forehead!!!:)

antiskeptic

J C wrote: »

Was he a Paddy at all?????:)

Quote:
John Nelson Darby was born in Westminster, London, and christened at St. Margaret's on 3 March 1801.

Maybe he was born again here?

J C

No: Believers will have to endure throughout the tribulation period.

antiskeptic wrote: »

AKA 'covering your arse'.

You could say that!!!
After all, that's what insurance ... and assurance is all about!!!

antiskeptic wrote: »

I'd have every sympathy for an unbeliever maintaining their unbelief on the grounds of not wanting to touch a god like that with a 10 ft pole (Bez obrazy dla Polaków jest przeznaczony!)

Your 'sympathy' seems to be of the pyrrhic variety!!!:eek::)

J C

No: Believers will have to endure throughout the tribulation period.

antiskeptic wrote: »

Maybe he was born again here?

Could well be that he was.:):D
That would make him a Saved Paddy ... instead of a Plastic one!!!:D

antiskeptic

J C wrote: »

It'll be in the right hand or the forehead!!!:)

In?

Wonder how they'll prevent the inevitable workarounds.

antiskeptic

J C wrote: »

You could say that!!!
After all, that's what insurance ... and assurance is all about!!!

I'd feel a lot less assured than I do now if I thought God operated that way. Hedge-your-bets-belief doesn't strike me as the kind of belief God is looking for.

Your 'sympathy' seems to be of the pyrrhic variety!!!:eek::)

Au cointreau. Someone who ups and runs away (from a false gospel*) lives to be saved another day (by the true gospel).

*assuming for the sake of discussion a hedge-your-bet gospel is incorrect.

J C

No: Believers will have to endure throughout the tribulation period.

antiskeptic wrote: »

I'd feel a lot less assured than I do now if I thought God operated that way.

Why?
God doesn't operate that way ... but we often use our heads first ... before we commit our hearts!!!

antiskeptic wrote: »

Hedge-your-bets-belief doesn't strike me as the kind of belief God is looking for.

God is looking for our hearts to believe in Him ... but the way to our hearts is often via our heads ... and I agree that a hedge-your-bets belief is of the head variety!!!!

antiskeptic wrote: »

Au cointreau. Someone who ups and runs away (from a false gospel*) lives to be saved another day (by the true gospel).

*assuming for the sake of discussion a hedge-your-bet gospel is incorrect.

It's part of the true Gospel.
Luke 10:27
New International Version (NIV)
27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’ (or head).

... and isn't it quite ironic that you are worried because we have hard logical reasons to believe in God and the Rapture ... as well as emotional ones!!:eek:
It certainly doesn't worry me!!!

J C

No: Believers will have to endure throughout the tribulation period.

antiskeptic wrote: »

In?

Wonder how they'll prevent the inevitable workarounds.

You won't 'work around' the Mark ... because it will be a clear spiritual commitment as well as a physical one.

Run_to_da_hills

J C wrote: »

... Jesus has already defeated Satan ... by His Saving death for sins.

I am referring to 2 Thessalonians 2:8

J C wrote: »

Jesus rescues His Elect before the Great Tribulation ... and comes back a Second time to destroy the Anti-christ and the False Prophet

Why?


Precisely, The Rapture occurs at end of the Church era ... and ushers in the Great Tribulation.

There has been "Great Tribulations" amongst mankind since the beginning of time, WW2 is one example in particular, Why should God deliver his people from the one yet to come?

(BTW I believe Adolf Hitler as the spiritual forerunner and warning of what is yet to come)

J C wrote: »

All very true ... but the situation at the point of the Rapture will be so dire that God will have to physically intervene to ensure the Salvation of the already Saved.

Jesus returns once, it is stated that if he didn't intervene humanity would be cut short. (Matthew 24:22) Why should he come once to rescue his people from the test and again to save the world from falling apart?. Your logic dose not make sense at all.

J C wrote: »

I won't be alone!!!!:)

... it will also usher in the ultimate test for the unbelievers ... The Mark!!!:)

The mark will be the ultimate test for humanity which would include believers like myself. People like yourself that are expecting the pre tribulation "rapture" will be put to the test more than others because you will be the least physically prepared for it. IE basic food, provisions. etc.

J C wrote: »

It will be impossible for Christians to live through the Great Tribulation .
. Salvation after the Rapture will be by martyrdom at the point of taking/refusing the Mark ... and it is the removal of the Christians (and with them, the Holy Spirit) at the Rapture that allows the Great Tribulation to begin.

That I would agree with, It is the ultimate test for the believer to die before submitting himself to the Antichrist system and taking the mark.

I believe any Christian that martyrs himself for his beliefs throughout the tribulation period will be spiritually resurrected on Judgement day on the return of Christ along with all believers and martyrs since the beginning of time.

Lastly do you expect that you will be physically lifted up into the air?

antiskeptic

J C wrote: »

Why?
God doesn't operate that way ... but we often use our heads first ... before we commit our hearts!!!

'Believing' in God (in order to hedge your bets regarding his possible existence) isn't a step along a path towards believing in God in the only way that counts. The obvious danger is supposing your 'belief' sufficient so that you halt right there

Take a similar case of useless 'belief': are you really content that the vast majority of those Irish people professing belief, but whose belief you know is worthless, are a step along the path to true belief.

Or do you suppose their useless belief is a hinderance to actual belief?

God is looking for our hearts to believe in Him ... but the way to our hearts is often via our heads ... and I agree that a hedge-your-bets belief is of the head variety!!!!

Looking around you and finding it impossible to suppose it all came about by the mindless processes which are touted to have produced it is using your head. At least, the head is boggled by the complexity which permits it to conclude chance causation unlikely

Hedging your bets in case is merely hedging your bets.

It's part of the true Gospel.
Luke 10:27
New International Version (NIV)
27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’ (or head).

And there are only one category of people who can do that - those who have been born again. The mind of the lost is darkened so that they cannot see.

... and isn't it quite ironic that you are worried because we have hard logical reasons to believe in God and the Rapture ... as well as emotional ones!!:eek:
It certainly doesn't worry me!!!

I don't find belief in God at all illogical or irrational but for the unbeliever there are logical and rational reasons supporting his unbelief too.

Ultimately, both his belief and mine terminate in faith. I mean, the only reason the average Joe believes in mindless evolution as the means by biological life came to be as it is believe it because he has been told by folk he trusts to know (in this he is very much like the Irish Catholic of old who followed the priests lead).

He's not in a position to evaluate the evidence and argumentation for himself.

As for the Rapture? Logical or no, I won't be holding my breath

antiskeptic

J C wrote: »

You won't 'work around' the Mark ... because it will be a clear spiritual commitment as well as a physical one.

I thought it had to do with buying the groceries and stuff like that - something that can be worked around ( I mean, you can get a perfectly good hooky licence/tax/insurance/NCT around where I work for about 400 quid)

What else would I have to do that couldn't be feigned?

J C

No: Believers will have to endure throughout the tribulation period.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I am referring to 2 Thessalonians 2:8

Satan is already defeated ... he just doesn't accept it.
The passage above refers to the the destruction of the Antichrist.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

There has been "Great Tribulations" amongst mankind since the beginning of time, WW2 is one example in particular, Why should God deliver his people from the one yet to come?

Here is why...

Mt 20:21-22
For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

(BTW I believe Adolf Hitler as the spiritual forerunner and warning of what is yet to come)

Jesus returns once, it is stated that if he didn't intervene humanity would be cut short. (Matthew 24:22) Why should he come once to rescue his people from the test and again to save the world from falling apart?. Your logic dose not make sense at all.

It is for His Elect's sake that He returns First (to Rapture them) ...
... the World will already have 'fallen apart' before His Second Return ... to destroy the Antichrist and his cohort ... and to restore the World.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The mark will be the ultimate test for humanity which would include believers like myself. People like yourself that are expecting the pre tribulation "rapture" will be put to the test more than others because you will be the least physically prepared for it. IE basic food, provisions. etc.

It is always wise to prepare for the worst (the possibility that you may not be Raptured) ... and to hope for the best (that you will).:)

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

That I would agree with, It is the ultimate test for the believer to die before submitting himself to the Antichrist system and taking the mark.

Satan isn't allowed to test Jesus Christ ... or His Saved people, who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
The Mark would contravene this principle ... and thus, the Saved will be raptured before this universal Demonic test.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I believe any Christian that martyrs himself for his beliefs throughout the tribulation period will be spiritually resurrected on Judgement day on the return of Christ along with all believers and martyrs since the beginning of time.

People who are martyred in the Great Tribulation will be instantly taken to Heaven to be with the rest of the Saints.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Lastly do you expect that you will be physically lifted up into the air?

It seems so.

J C

No: Believers will have to endure throughout the tribulation period.

antiskeptic wrote: »

I thought it had to do with buying the groceries and stuff like that - something that can be worked around ( I mean, you can get a perfectly good hooky licence/tax/insurance/NCT around where I work for about 400 quid)

What else would I have to do that couldn't be feigned?

... making an irreversible (spiritual) commitment to the Antichrist.

Run_to_da_hills

J C wrote: »

Satan is already defeated ... he just doesn't accept it.
The passage above refers to the the destruction of the Antichrist.

I would agree you on that one but he still remains the God of this world until he is cast out. 2 Corinthians 4:4

J C wrote: »

Here is why...

Mt 20:21-22
For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

The Elect meaning those that are saved and on the planet during the tribulation period ie No rapture;

J C wrote: »

It is always wise to prepare for the worst (the possibility that you may not be Raptured) ... and to hope for the best (that you will).:)

So someone that is saved, unprepared nay bot be raptured? Like reverting on the OSAS doctrine.

J C wrote: »

Satan isn't allowed to test Jesus Christ ... or His Saved people, who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

True, Satan was rebuked from testing Jesus on the mount. Luke 4 12 however we are still human and the the Born again spirit filled believer is certainly not immune to Satan's tricks and can fall away and loose their salvation if they sin and backslide. "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour" 1st Peter 8 wasn't written as a joke

J C wrote: »

The Mark would contravene this principle ... and thus, the Saved will be raptured before this universal Demonic test.

Wishful thinking, The Apostle Paul and Peter would have loved such a cushy number working for the lord on earth like that and then be able to be beamed up before they got slaughtered by the Romans. They also didn't have the luxuries of suv's, mobile telephones and large flat screen television sets.

J C wrote: »

People who are martyred in the Great Tribulation will be instantly taken to Heaven to be with the rest of the Saints.

I would be inclined to believe that they will remain in their graves until the the return of our savior at the end of age. (Harvest )

J C wrote: »

It seems so.

The Rapture happens and you are stuck in a deep level Tube train under the Heart of London. :eek:

J C

No: Believers will have to endure throughout the tribulation period.

antiskeptic wrote: »

'Believing' in God (in order to hedge your bets regarding his possible existence) isn't a step along a path towards believing in God in the only way that counts. The obvious danger is supposing your 'belief' sufficient so that you halt right there

Take a similar case of useless 'belief': are you really content that the vast majority of those Irish people professing belief, but whose belief you know is worthless, are a step along the path to true belief.

Or do you suppose their useless belief is a hinderance to actual belief?

This is what Jesus had to say about the importance of the head as a means of getting to the heart:-

John 3:11-12
New International Version (NIV)
11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

antiskeptic wrote: »

Looking around you and finding it impossible to suppose it all came about by the mindless processes which are touted to have produced it is using your head. At least, the head is boggled by the complexity which permits it to conclude chance causation unlikely

Hedging your bets in case is merely hedging your bets.

... and getting Saved because the alternative may be eternal damnation is also 'hedging you bets'.
... believing in God ... and believing on Jesus Christ to Save you makes sense ... and that's a very good reason to do so.

antiskeptic wrote: »

And there are only one category of people who can do that - those who have been born again. The mind of the lost is darkened so that they cannot see.

The un-Saved may refuse to see ... but they can reason, just like everybody else!!!

antiskeptic wrote: »

I don't find belief in God at all illogical or irrational but for the unbeliever there are logical and rational reasons supporting his unbelief too.

Ultimately, both his belief and mine terminate in faith. I mean, the only reason the average Joe believes in mindless evolution as the means by biological life came to be as it is believe it because he has been told by folk he trusts to know (in this he is very much like the Irish Catholic of old who followed the priests lead).

The image of serried rows of Materialists nodding at every faith-filled dogmatic pronouncement of their 'leaders' is a sight to behold!!!!

antiskeptic wrote: »

He's not in a position to evaluate the evidence and argumentation for himself.

They are actually in a position to do so ... by using their logical minds ... but many refuse to do so ... because this would involve accepting that God exists

antiskeptic wrote: »

As for the Rapture? Logical or no, I won't be holding my breath

... and neither will I be doing so ... either.

antiskeptic

J C wrote: »

... making an irreversible (spiritual) commitment to the Antichrist.

Couldn't that commitment be falsified (in the same way that many attest to belief in Christ their savior, but whose commitment has no effective value)?