Taking bids off the wall?!

dakan

Was just looking at some clips of auctions on youtube and I just found out there is such a thing as "taking bids off the wall." This is when the auctioneer tries to get the price up by pretending to see bidders who aren't there. :mad: Also they mention that it is perfectly legal. The clips seems to be from the UK. Does anybody know what the situation is with Irish law? I would certainly think twice about making commission bids if it is also legal here.

Dakan

Judgement Day

It doesn't matter whether or not it's legal or not, it goes on and even if you attend the auction you can't be sure it's not going on. Part of the fun.

Daemos

I'm sure it's justified by saying they're not forcing you to bid, but it definitely sounds shady to me

MasterSun

I believe the technical term for this is called ghost bidding

Judgement Day

An extract here from my extremely useful and cheap guide to Collecting in Ireland:


TIPS FOR BUYING AT AUCTION

There is nothing to beat the excitement of attending a good auction, although for the first-time bidder it can all seem a bit daunting, and I offer here a few things that I have learnt over the years.

It may seem obvious but always view an auction before attending with a view to buying – there is no use trying to rush round ten minutes before the start. Allow yourself plenty of time, preferably on a viewing day, to examine all the lots properly. Failure to do this can often result in buying an item only to get it home and find it flawed in some way, and there is usually no refund from the auctioneer. If you do find an item of exceptional interest try not to draw too much attention to it whilst at the same time giving it a thorough examination.

With furniture pay special attention to repairs and that the upper and lower sections of a piece match, and with ceramics watch out for hairline cracks, chips, crazing etc. not always noticeable with a cursory inspection – especially in a dimly lit saleroom.

Take into account the difficulty/cost of transporting your purchases home. There is little to be gained buying a Chesterfield suite worth €200 for €10 only to have to pay a carrier €200 to move it for you!
Also take into account the ‘buyer’s premium’ which can be as high as 18% on top of the hammer price.

Don’t make boredom purchases. Even experienced dealers can do this if the auctioneer is slow or the quality of lots poor. Almost inevitably you will end up with a pile of junk – just don’t do it! Come into a sale knowing what you are after, how much you are prepared to pay, and stick with it.

Don’t get carried away by the bidding, some of it may be the walls or as I witnessed on one occasion – a pigeon tapping on a skylight was mistaken for a bid! Auctioneers earn their livings by working the crowd and the only way that you can keep ahead is by writing down in your catalogue the maximum that you are prepared to pay and stick to it. Obviously on an exceptional occasion you can depart from this but it is a good general rule.....

And it just so happens there's a copy for sale on Adverts.ie right now.

http://www.adverts.ie/other-antiques-collectables/collect-ireland-antiques-guide/2074106

dakan

Thanks for the tips Judgement Day. From now on I'm going to stand at the back so I can get a good view of the whole room. It's annoying that you can't just depend on the whole thing being honest.

coylemj

dakan wrote: »

Thanks for the tips Judgement Day. From now on I'm going to stand at the back so I can get a good view of the whole room. It's annoying that you can't just depend on the whole thing being honest.

The only way you can 'get a good view of the whole room' is by standing behind the auctioneer! A lot of people bid by lifting a finger or a pen held close to their chest, a gesture deliberately designed so that it can't be seen by people standing behind them.

Pottler

I used to buy a huge amount of stuff at auction(still do occasionally) and I always registered as "Mr Wall", just for the craic. "Mr Wall" bought a lot of gear! Brought a whole new meaning to "bidding off the wall".

Wild_Dogger

Pottler wrote: »

I used to buy a huge amount of stuff at auction(still do occasionally) and I always registered as "Mr Wall", just for the craic. "Mr Wall" bought a lot of gear! Brought a whole new meaning to "bidding off the wall".

You got to be careful you dont end up with something that has once been pinched !

The guy in the video is talking rubbish. How does he know that there is no other bidder in the room ?
You play that game thinking the item will get withdrawn only to discover you it was actually sold at a knock-down price to a genuine but discreet bidder.

I would take great umbrage to this presenter's claim if I was that auctioneer !

Pottler

Wild_Dogger wrote: »

You got to be careful you dont end up with something that has once been pinched !

The guy in the video is talking rubbish. How does he know that there is no other bidder in the room ?
You play that game thinking the item will get withdrawn only to discover you it was actually sold at a knock-down price to a genuine but discreet bidder.

I would take great umbrage to this presenter's claim if I was that auctioneer !

I've bought literally hundreds of thousands of euros worth of stuff at auction, it was my full time living for a good while, and there are amazing bargains to be had. I've bought stuff for €1 that I resold for €1500 but equally, I've bought at €1500 and been stuck with it, so caveat emptor but it's a great way to buy, very often.

Bigus

The auctioneer is duty bound to get the best price for the seller , not the cheapest price for the buyer.

Most stuff has reserves so they can justify getting the price to within an asses roar of the reserve

otherwise the majority of stuff wouldn't sell which wouldnt suit buyers or sellers if you think it through.

No reserve auctions are more transparent to a degree.

coylemj

Could someone please comment on the following scenario...

Auctioneer has one or two bidders in the room but they're a bit slow at outbidding one another so in order to liven things up, he invents bids from 'the wall'.

The two genuine bidders stop bidding after a phantom bid from 'the wall' and as there are no more bids, the auctioneer (after an embarrassingly long and futile pause for more bids) declares the lot 'sold'.

What happens next?

Bigus

coylemj wrote: »

Could someone please comment on the following scenario...

Auctioneer has one or two bidders in the room but they're a bit slow at outbidding one another so in order to liven things up, he invents bids from 'the wall'.

The two genuine bidders stop bidding after a phantom bid from 'the wall' and as there are no more bids, the auctioneer (after an embarrassingly long and futile pause for more bids) declares the lot 'sold'.

What happens next?

That's where the skill comes in and there'll be no bids off the wall once the item reaches reserve, so in your scenario, not sold, didn't reach reserve.

coylemj

Bigus wrote: »

That's where the skill comes in and there'll be no bids off the wall once the item reaches reserve, so in your scenario, not sold, didn't reach reserve.

I don't recall anyone saying that bids 'off the wall' ceased when the reserve price was reached.

Anthony O Brien

Bigus wrote: »

The auctioneer is duty bound to get the best price for the seller , not the cheapest price for the buyer.

This

Anthony O Brien

coylemj wrote: »

Could someone please comment on the following scenario...

Auctioneer has one or two bidders in the room but they're a bit slow at outbidding one another so in order to liven things up, he invents bids from 'the wall'.

Rarely happens because if they have two bidders they would be willing to wait to get the bids in, less hassle then trying to account for their ghost biders

The two genuine bidders stop bidding after a phantom bid from 'the wall' and as there are no more bids, the auctioneer (after an embarrassingly long and futile pause for more bids) declares the lot 'sold'.

You'll hear the likes of from the auctioneer "one more and im out" or "your almost there" or something along those lines to get an extra real bid in
Another thing they'll try is saying the reserve is not met and come and see me at the end of the sale, or they'll take note of the high bidder and have a word with them saying that the mythical highest bidder has pulled out and they can have the item for their highest bid, a bit like a second chance offer on ebay

What happens next?

.

Wild_Dogger

coylemj wrote: »

I don't recall anyone saying that bids 'off the wall' ceased when the reserve price was reached.

How does the auctioneer explain to the vendor that the hammer price exceeded the reserve but the lot is still not sold ?

The vendors are very often sitting in the saleroom watching to see how their lots perform.

No sale means no profit for the auctioneer - in fact it means a loss for the auctioneer as their work and expense is now lost.
Why would he bother taking a chance with phantom bids above a reserve price ?

coylemj

You'll hear the likes of from the auctioneer "one more and im out" or "your almost there" or something along those lines to get an extra real bid in
Another thing they'll try is saying the reserve is not met and come and see me at the end of the sale, or they'll take note of the high bidder and have a word with them saying that the mythical highest bidder has pulled out and they can have the item for their highest bid, a bit like a second chance offer on ebay

If I was 'outbid' by a phantom bidder and the auctioneer came to me afterwards saying that the highest bidder had pulled out and that they would accept my highest bid, my answer to him would be unprintable.

However if I really wanted the item, I would tell the auctioneer that I would only offer the amount of my bid at the point where the third last bidder pulled out i.e. the last person to withdraw before only the highest bidder and I were left standing, rather than me have to fulfil a bid based on being pushed higher and higher by the highest bidder, whether he existed or not.