Twenty years on – Peter McBride’s killer remains in British army

Fenian Army

Twenty years on – Peter McBride’s killer remains in British army
TOM News 05/09/12

Yesterday marked the 20th anniversary of the murder of Peter McBride in Belfast by two members of the British army’s Scots Guards Regiment, James Fisher and Mark Wright.

Despite their convictions for the murder of the unarmed teenager in broad daylight, both soldiers were allowed to re-join their regiment having served only three years of their life sentences.

One (Mark Wright) was discharged for medical reasons following a shooting injury sustained in Iraq. The other (James Fisher) remains a serving soldier in the British army.

As Peter McBride’s mother, Jean, deals with the daily consequence of loss and grief, she is confronted with the additional agony that the British government, its army and large sections of the British media find it perfectly acceptable that the killer of an unarmed teenager should remain in the British armed forces.

No demands in parliament that convicted murderers should be dismissed.

No outrage on the Steven Nolan Show on BBC radio (as has been the case concerning the employment of others with convictions for murder).

No demands to change the law (as some Unionist politicians have campaigned for).

Just silence... Peter who?

And Guardsman James Fisher?

Twenty years ago yesterday Wright and Fisher shot Peter McBride in the back.

They remained soldiers while in prison awaiting trial.

They remained soldiers following their conviction.

Fisher remains a soldier today.

No outrage to be heard on behalf of an ordinary working-class mother from a Catholic area of North Belfast.

Just silence.

A disgrace, but not all-together surprising. Things like this, and the payout Danny Morrison and no doubt others are to get because of gross miscarriages of justice as well as the continued refusal for investigations into the murders in Ballymurphy, of human rights lawyers such as Pat Finucane, the continued withholding of the Dublin/Monaghan files, I could go on, clearly illustrate the dismissive attitudes towards Irish people by British authorities - and this in a supposed new era.

Few here will of heard of Peter McBride, the Irish media, still in an anti Irish, pro Britain section 31 mindset when it comes to things like this, tend not to mention people like Peter.

The PSNI and the British are moving heaven and earth, destroying valuable historical projects in the process, trying to pin the murder of Jean McConville on someone - because that investigation satisfies their political agenda. (speaking of the media, strange how they never mention that her son was in the IRA and later the INLA isn't it? Doesn't quite fit in with the agenda - perfectly illustrated by the oft repeated lie that she was killed for helping a wounded British soldier). Yes her family deserve the truth, but so do so many other families.

When it comes to investigations like this the political agenda needs to be left out, and the only way to do that is to have an amnesty (well it seems for certain people there is a virtual one, went straight back to killing people in a foreign land) and a truth and reconciliation forum with the engagement of all sides. What can't continue is the current one sided process were victims of British state violence are seemingly ignored.

We have people like Gerry McGeough, a supporter of the peace process and against armed action(well he was at one time, I don't know about now, wouldnt blame him if he changed his mind given what has happened,) remember he was a senior SF figure and fully supported things up to policing, hunted down and jailed, yet we have the British denying inquiries into the deaths of victims of British state violence and leaving people like the killers of Peter McBride serving in their armed forces. A clear double standard.

I wonder will the British nationalist poppy brigade remember that their "heroes" are people like these two murderers. Perhaps the people in the thread about the British Army band performing for Jack and Jill will remember Peter McBride. No one does it seems.

Fenian Army

This is from 2003:

Remember Peter McBride?

A Belfast woman is standing in a Brent by-election to highlight the 'state sanctioning' of her brother's murder





You may be wondering, says a leaflet addressed to byelection voters, why a young mother from a working class area of north Belfast is standing as a candidate in Brent East. Indeed, they may. It is doubtful, in spite of the constituency boasting the capital's highest proportion of Irish people, that many would have heard of Kelly McBride or the injustice that lies behind her decision to stand. That lack of knowledge about an extraordinary case is the very reason this shy woman is canvassing unfamiliar streets in Kilburn and Willesden this week.

She and her family - plus the vast majority of the nationalist population in Northern Ireland - are determined to overcome the British media's lack of interest in their campaign to win justice for Kelly's murdered brother, Peter. It was noticeable that no London-based national paper even recorded that Kelly had entered the race, though it made headlines in Ireland and appeared on several websites. Yet, as a public meeting last week in Belfast to support her nomination was told: "London is where all the negative decisions have been taken. People there need to know what's happening in their name."

It was in September 1992 that 18-year-old Peter McBride was shot by two Scots guardsmen, Mark Wright and James Fisher, while they were patrolling the New Lodge area of Belfast. They stopped and searched the youth, finding nothing, but he was so frightened by the confrontation he took to his heels. As he ran off he was shot in the back and seriously wounded. Then, when he collapsed across a car and slid to the ground, he was shot again, also in the back.

The two soldiers were convicted of murder three years later and given life sentences. In his judgment, Lord Justice Kelly delivered a stinging rebuke to the pair, accusing Fisher of having "deliberately lied" and speaking witheringly of the frailty of Wright's evidence. He said he considered both men "untruthful and evasive". Kelly's judgment was later upheld when the men's appeal against conviction was dismissed and they were also refused the right to take their case to the House of Lords.

While they were serving their time, the Daily Mail launched a campaign to have them freed, supported by such luminaries as Ludovic Kennedy and Martin Bell, then an MP. Wright and Fisher were eventually released in September 1998, which the McBride family was willing to accept. But they could not countenance the fact that the two men were immediately welcomed back into the army to resume their careers despite Queen's regulations which stipulate that anyone given a custodial sentence in a civilian court must be dismissed unless there are "exceptional reasons".

When the army board rejected pleas by Peter's mother, Jean McBride, to dismiss the men, she went to court. In the latest hearing, at the Belfast court of appeal in June, it was ruled that the soldiers should not have been reinstated because there were no "exceptional reasons" to justify their retention, but it stopped short of ordering the army to sack them.

One of the people who sat on the army board that supported Wright and Fisher was the then armed forces minister John Spellar, who has since become a junior Northern Ireland minister. After a stormy meeting between Spellar and Mrs McBride, she called for a boycott of his office until the Ministry of Defence responded to the court of appeal's judgment.

She and her daughter argue that allowing the soldiers to remain in the army amounts to the state sanctioning of her son's murder. They have been further incensed by the revelation that Fisher has recently been promoted to lance corporal.

The mayors of Belfast and Derry took up the McBrides' boycott call, an action that led last week to unionists condemning the SDLP mayor of Belfast, Martin Morgan, for banning Spellar from his parlour. The McBride family also points to the double standards the MoD appears to have employed in dismissing Major Charles Ingram, the man found guilty of cheating on the TV quiz show Who Wants To Be A Millionaire? "To treat Peter McBride's killers more leniently than a quiz cheat is a sick joke," said an east Belfast Alliance councillor, Naomi Long, adding: "It would appear that the army is more worried about bad publicity in England than justice in Northern Ireland."

It is this sense of outrage, tinged with what they believe to be anti-Irish racism, that has won the McBrides widespread support across Northern Ireland. At Brent East they hope to find more supporters. Though Kelly McBride frankly admits she doesn't expect to win the seat, in which she faces 15 other candidates - including the usual sprinkling of loonies and self-publicists - she is determined to do all she can to highlight her case.

The post office this week almost unwittingly helped her cause by deciding that Kelly's election communication was legally unacceptable. Officials eventually gave in, but it's just another example of the establishment opposition the McBrides have faced throughout their campaign.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2003/sep/10/northernireland.northernireland

State sanction of his murder indeed.

Fenian Army

Some more background info for those unfamiliar:

In December 1998 an Army Board decided that Wright & Fisher could remain in the Army due to "exceptional reasons".

In September 1999 a Belfast court overturned the Army Board decision and ordered the MoD to reconsider the retention of the two convicted murderers.

Throughout the summer of 2000 a second Army Board, which included the then Armed Forces Minister John Spellar and Commander in Chief of Land Forces General Mike Jackson (of Bloody Sunday notoriety) held a series of hearings to determine whether Wright & Fisher should be dismissed.

In October 2000, while the Army Board was deliberating, Fisher was promoted.

On 24th November 2000 the Army Board again ruled that there were ‘exceptional reasons’ justifying retention of the guardsmen.

In June 2003 the Northern Ireland Court of Appeal ruled that there were no ‘exceptional reasons’ justifying retention.

In August 2003 Armed Forces Minister Adam Ingram revealed for the first time in a letter to the Pat Finucane Centre that Fisher had been promoted.

In September 2003 Ingram admitted that the promotion occurred in October 2000 while the Army Board was deliberating on the case.

More here: http://www.troopsoutmovement.com/latestnews.htm

getzls

Once i seen the bit about Gerry McGeough being a member of the peace process i realised you wern't being over serious in this post.

Don't worry, he will be out of the army soon


With his pension.

karma_

getzls wrote: »

Once i seen the bit about Gerry McGeough being a member of the peace process i realised you wern't being over serious in this post.

Don't worry, he will be out of the army soon


With his pension.

Yes, a convicted murderer, with his pension. The epitome of justice isn't it?

I found your pension comment a bit slimy in fairness.

Fenian Army

getzls wrote: »

Once i seen the bit about Gerry McGeough being a member of the peace process i realised you wern't being over serious in this post.

Don't worry, he will be out of the army soon


With his pension.

You seem delighted at the prospect.

McGeough used to be a senior SF figure. The point I was making was that it demonstrates the double standard of selective punishment.

Tool_

That way the British treat their foot soldiers who kill civilians gives the lie to the line that these incidents are the result of "bad apples" or unfortunate accidents. By allowing murderers to remain in their jobs the British Army give retrospective justification to the original crime, and this sends a pretty powerful message to the communities they operate in.

The day the music died for Kidso Reilly
Tuesday, August 05, 2003

20 years ago this week Turf Lodge man Thomas ‘Kidso’ Reilly was shot in the back by British Army Paratrooper private Ian Thain.

His murder devastated his close family - his mother Bridie and father Jim never recovered from the death of their beloved son who wasw a road manager with pop group Bananarama.
On the day of his funeral Turf Lodge was brought to a standstill as world famous pop stars mixed with heartbroken friends and family of the murdered man.

There were wreaths from Spandau Ballet, The Jam, Depeche Mode and Clare Grogan of Altered Images, as well as letters and cards from people involved in the music industry all over the world.

The three members of pop group Bananarama flew in for the funeral that filled Holy Trinity Church to capacity and saw hundreds of mourners spilling onto the street outside.

Private Ian Thain was later convicted of the murder of Thomas Reilly, the first British soldier ever to be charged with murder while on active duty.

He appealed and was again found guilty by the court of appeal. At this point the Reilly family thought they had received justice.

However just two years later a journalist contacted the Reilly family to tell them Ian Thain had been released and was back serving in the army.

He had served just 22 months of his life sentence in an open prison. His army wage was never stopped. He was paid each and every day since he murdered Thomas Reilly.
To mark the 20th anniversary of Thomas’ death, this Saturday 9 August, a memorial cup has been launched with a presentation in Trinity Lodge.

His sister Carol says she will never forget the day she lost the brother who could, "charm the birds from the trees”.

"Thomas had been working away with Bananarama as a road manager, he had came home just a few weeks before he was killed,” she told the Andersonstown News.

"Our Thomas was really happy-go–lucky.
Everyone in Turf Lodge knew him, every picture we have of him, he is smiling.

"That morning his friend Croup Crothers called to the door, I told him Thomas was still sleeping but he went around the back and threw pebbles at the window to wake him up.

"As he was on his way out the door I called to him to be back early. He had a pair of Levi jeans on, cut into shorts, and his shirt tied around his waist. It was a really warm day.

"My mummy was working an early shift. She come in from work later that afternoon and went upstairs to have a lie down.”

Shortly afterwards, Carol heard a shot.
"I didn’t really think anything of it. Hearing gunfire wasn’t unusual at that time.

"It was only when the door knocked and a neighbour told me that Thomas had been shot that I panicked.

"I ran straight out and up to the garage, the place was all cordoned off and they were just closing the door of the ambulance.

"They wouldn’t let me anywhere near it and there was British army everywhere.

"I was told they were taking him to Foster Green, we didn’t know at the time that they only take you to Foster Green if you are already dead.

"I started to walk back to the house and that was when another neighbour stopped me and told me our Thomas was dead.

"I remember telling my mummy and she just started screaming."

Kidso’s brother Jim was a drummer and had played for a number of bands including punk icons, Stiff Little Fingers. Jim was in America at the time of the murder and had to be contacted to fly home.

Carol recalls: "I didn’t really know what to do so I sent for my mummy’s bother Tommy to help sort things out.

"You know the RUC never even knocked our door to tell us he was dead, no one came near us.

"Jim and Brenda were both away in America, Michael was away working on the boats so we had to send for them, our Anna was only young at the time.

"My daddy was working delivering blood in Omagh, we got in contact with him and he came straight home, when the van pulled up he just fell out, collapsed onto the street, it was the first time I ever saw him cry."

Kidso’s brother Jim remembers the long flight home from America, having learnt that his brother had been shot and killed.

"I flew from New York to London where I had to wait on a flight to Belfast. I was sitting in the departure lounge full of people reading the paper with my brother’s face on the front of every newspaper.

"The singer in the band I was with at the time came with me, he was from New Orleans.
"When we drove into Turf Lodge the place had erupted, there was rioting everywhere. By this time I was ready to explode, the taxi pulled up and I jumped out into the middle of a full scale riot. The guy who was with me was sitting in the back of the taxi shattered.”

Jim recalls the American Consulate contacting his fellow-band member and advising him to flee West Belfast as it was too dangerous.

"What always strikes me is that people never forgot our Thomas,” adds Jim. “He was just 21 when he died but people he had met from all over the world sent letters and cards.

"People still say to me, ‘I remember where I was the day your Kidso died’. It was an awful time but it’s good to know that he touched so many people.

"His friends never got over it.. His mate Croup who was with him the day he died still goes to his grave. His other mate Willie Kempston works in the cemetery and tends to Thomas’ grave to this day.

"He loved life and loved Celtic, when he was working on the road he would make his way back to see Celtic playing from all over the world. He was buried in his Celtic top."

Michael Reilly went to the court to see the trial of the man who shot his brother in the back, and said he showed no remorse.

"He just sat there chewing gum and smirking. He lied the entire way through the trial, even the judge called him a liar.

"At the time he was released there were so little rights for nationalists that we had no way open to us to pursue the case.

"20-years on and little has changed. The family of Peter McBride are in the same situation with their son’s killers back serving in the army.

"Our Thomas loved life, he used to say his three loves, were Celtic, Cider and Women...in that order.

"When he was about you knew it, he was just a real messer.

"People he had met while working in London raised money after his death to pay for his headstone, that is the effect he had on people.
Michael says the memorial cup will be a way to keep his memory alive for years to come. “But for all of us who knew him and loved him his memory never died anyway."

Sunnyisland

karma_ wrote: »

Yes, a convicted murderer, with his pension. The epitome of justice isn't it?

I found your pension comment a bit slimy in fairness.

Once the victims are Nationalist or Republican them sort of posts are nothing new from the likes of her/him, Her/him posted this about another murder in a different thread.

The cost of a bullet well spent. And i know the Mods won't like me posting
that but they might even agree with my post 4 days, 10
hours in After Hours by getzls

RubyRoss

It’s sad and destructive that nations and army institutions behave as such. Britain has its own version of the US media creed ‘support the troops’. They trot out poppies with no reflection on what the pointless waste of lives WWI represents and refuse to carry stories that counter the narrative of ‘hero’ soldiers. Nevertheless, I at least find it possible that armies and soldiers can do legitimate work, as opposed to paramilitaries, and nations could if they were willing hold their military to account.

Fratton Fred

RubyRoss wrote: »

It’s sad and destructive that nations and army institutions behave as such. Britain has its own version of the US media creed ‘support the troops’. They trot out poppies with no reflection on what the pointless waste of lives WWI represents and refuse to carry stories that counter the narrative of ‘hero’ soldiers. Nevertheless, I at least find it possible that armies and soldiers can do legitimate work, as opposed to paramilitaries, and nations could if they were willing hold their military to account.

Those that murdered inocent people should be held to account, without doubt. But dragging the poppy in this does a huge dis service to those that died pointlessly in WWI. Ireland didn't have conscription, Britain did. The vast majority of those that died were ordinary Joe Soaps and it is right that they are remembered. The poppy remembers those that died, not why they died.

As for the OP? well I think Saturday's disgusting show of force by the RIRA and the hero worship a common criminal has been given highlights the hypocrisy nicely to be honest.

March is the 20 anniversary of the Warrington bombs that killed three year old Jonathan Ball and 12 year old Tim Parry, yet the scum that did it are still heralded as heroes.

Oh yeah, sorry, they were "Freedom Fighters" weren't they:rolleyes:

Laminations

Really tired of these threads. The OPs only contribution to this forum seems to be anti-British, anti-loyalist information bulletins. As another poster has said murderers need to be held to account but to post in such a one-sided manner, calling for prosecution for British soldiers and absolution for IRA killers is wholly hypocritical. Terrorist worshipers have little grounds to throw stones or demand justice.

And before I'm accused of supporting Peter McBrides killer, I don't. He should be tried and jailed if guilty. Soon after which I'm sure hell develop some ailment or allergy to prison and have the 'republicans' here appeal for clemency and his murderous past will become an irrelevancy.

Fenian Army

If you read what I wrote you'll see I want an amnesty and a truth and reconciliation forum, ie anyone who takes part in it isn't punished. However when the victims of British state violence are ignored and their killers treated like Peter McBride's then of course nationalists feel aggrieved, of course they will campaign and highlight the injustice.

The RIRA nonsense is irrelevant, that doesn't somehow make what's happened here ok. Peter McBride was a young man murdered in cold blood. j

Fenian Army

wow, criticizing the British state for keeping murderers of innocent people in their army, thus sanctioning their actions, makes me anti British?
can someone tell me how its ok for the British to do this?

Laminations

Fenian Army wrote: »

wow, criticizing the British state for keeping murderers of innocent people in their army, thus sanctioning their actions, makes me anti British?
can someone tell me how its ok for the British to do this?

It is not okay. I'm just pointing out how tediously samey your OPs are. It is not okay in my eyes for the British army to sanction murder nor is it okay for dissidents (or their supporters), or even funeral goers to sanction murder.

Fenian Army

Laminations wrote: »

It is not okay. I'm just pointing out how tediously samey your OPs are. It is not okay in my eyes for the British army to sanction murder nor is it okay for dissidents (or their supporters), or even funeral goers to sanction murder.

You could you know, not read or post in them if you don't like what I have to say?

You think I disagree with you? I don't support dissident republicans.

Laminations

Fenian Army wrote: »

You could you know, not read or post in them if you don't like what I have to say?

You think I disagree with you? I don't support dissident republicans.

You support the absolution or removal of punishment from perpetrators of past crimes, unless they are British soldiers. I don't make that distinction.

Fenian Army

Laminations wrote: »

You support the absolution or removal of punishment from perpetrators of past crimes, unless they are British soldiers. I don't make that distinction.

No, I'm saying that there should be an amnesty and a truth and reconciliation forum for everyone.

What I'm against is one side being treated differently than the other which is happening atm.

DipStick McSwindler

This post has been deleted.

Fratton Fred

Fenian Army wrote: »

No, I'm saying that there should be an amnesty and a truth and reconciliation forum for everyone.

What I'm against is one side being treated differently than the other which is happening atm.

With your hand on your heart, do you honestly believe that a truth and reconciliation programme would work?

Do you honestly believe the people behind the Omagh bombing would happily come forward? or the people who carried out the Miami Showband atrocity?

Fenian Army

Fratton Fred wrote: »

With your hand on your heart, do you honestly believe that a truth and reconciliation programme would work?

Do you honestly believe the people behind the Omagh bombing would happily come forward? or the people who carried out the Miami Showband atrocity?

I think in a lot of cases it would. Worth a try is it not? People who take part get an amnesty, those who don't, don't.

If only a handful of people come forward it would still be worthwhile. What is there to lose?

Fenian Army

IrishFeeney92 wrote: »

Did I not just provide a Factual Occurrence were a man who killed 2 soldiers and nearly 5 other people got away with it?

Each side has seen its own atrocities since the start of the 19th Century. What matters now is that its over, Scumbags who are trying to re-kindle the fuse and start it all over again are only being supported by threads like these.

The fact is its time for everybody to move on, maybe our generation aren't fully there yet but most certainly the ones after that will.

Would you did was defame someone who was found not guilty of what you say he did.

People need the truth to move on.

Laminations

Fenian Army wrote: »

I think in a lot of cases it would. Worth a try is it not? People who take part get an amnesty, those who don't, don't.

Kinda like the reprieves given in the GFA? 'Put dissident republicanism behind you and get your release but if you don't then you get prison'.

But you were against that actually being enforced? You were against the removal of release licenses. You defended the actions of people who attended and spoke at dissident rallies as them expressing political freedom?

Laminations

Fenian Army wrote: »

Would you did was defame someone who was found not guilty of what you say he did.

People need the truth to move on.

Lets start with the location of the disappeared so

Fenian Army

Laminations wrote: »

Lets start with the location of the disappeared so

Lets treat all dead equally. I wouldnt condition engagement with such a process on the release of the dublin and monaghan files for instance.

If its to work all sides must engage and disclose information - but with a truth and reconciliation forum I'd hope people would come forward for things like what you say

Fenian Army

Laminations wrote: »

Kinda like the reprieves given in the GFA? 'Put dissident republicanism behind you and get your release but if you don't then you get prison'.

But you were against that actually being enforced? You were against the removal of release licenses. You defended the actions of people who attended and spoke at dissident rallies as them expressing political freedom?

That is expressing political freedom - and she didnt speak, she held a piece of paper the contents of which she was unaware of. Obviously I dont agree with what was said.

Fratton Fred

Fenian Army wrote: »

That is expressing political freedom - and she didnt speak, she held a piece of paper the contents of which she was unaware of. Obviously I dont agree with what was said.

And she was invited to turn up at the rally how exactly?

Fenian Army

Fratton Fred wrote: »

And she was invited to turn up at the rally how exactly?

Do we really need to talk about Marian Price again? Havent we been over it before? Has your opinion changed? Mine hasn't.

If you insist perhaps you could start another thread.

Fratton Fred

Fenian Army wrote: »

I think in a lot of cases it would. Worth a try is it not? People who take part get an amnesty, those who don't, don't.

If only a handful of people come forward it would still be worthwhile. What is there to lose?

In a lot of cases, but not all then.

So, in the cases of say people being killed by the British Army, it would work and we will give them an amnesty.

In the case of the Omagh bombers? offer to give them an amnesty? really?

What about Jean McConvile? what if Gerry did order her murder? do you really think a serving TD with designs on the presidency would admit to anything that will jeaopardise his career? do you really think that the people who for years were murdering anyone who spoke out against Slab Murphy will suddenly happily sing like a bird in court?

You are living in a fantasy world.

Fenian Army

Fratton Fred wrote: »

In a lot of cases, but not all then.

So, in the cases of say people being killed by the British Army, it would work and we will give them an amnesty.

In the case of the Omagh bombers? offer to give them an amnesty? really?

What about Jean McConvile? what if Gerry did order her murder? do you really think a serving TD with designs on the presidency would admit to anything that will jeaopardise his career? do you really think that the people who for years were murdering anyone who spoke out against Slab Murphy will suddenly happily sing like a bird in court?

You are living in a fantasy world.

You dont think its worth a try, and that some good would come of it? I think we would see a lot of truth, not everything perhaps, but more than we have now. And in years to come when the players re dead people can look back and say that everything was done to establish the truth.

Fratton Fred

Fenian Army wrote: »

You dont think its worth a try, and that some good would come of it? I think we would see a lot of truth, not everything perhaps, but more than we have now. And in years to come when the players re dead people can look back and say that everything was done to establish the truth.

Who gets to decide on what truth we see and what truth we don't?

Laminations

Fenian Army wrote: »

That is expressing political freedom - and she didnt speak, she held a piece of paper the contents of which she was unaware of. Obviously I dont agree with what was said.

She was secretary of the 32csm, the 'political wing' of RIRA, a dissident republican group you say you do not support or condone.....but you support its supporters?

Laminations

Fenian Army wrote: »

You dont think its worth a try, and that some good would come of it? I think we would see a lot of truth, not everything perhaps, but more than we have now. And in years to come when the players re dead people can look back and say that everything was done to establish the truth.

But in advancing this supposed desire to see a truth and reconciliation programme you only ever seem to post about the atrocities of the British? Where is your 'Justice for Jean McConville's family' thread? I don't particularly disagree with a truth commission, although I share Fratton Fred's pessimism about it's worth. It is the totally one-sidedness with which you go about expressing this aim that I disagree with.

Fenian Army

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Who gets to decide on what truth we see and what truth we don't?

The way things stand now do you think we are going to get the truth for lots of things which happened during the troubles?

Do you think some people (at least) would engage with a truth and reconciliation forum and thus more truth will be known?

Not everyone will engage. That fact isnt a good argument against it. Those who dont will still be in the same position they are now(liable to prosecution etc), so I dont see how anyone loses out.

djpbarry

Fenian Army wrote: »

If only a handful of people come forward it would still be worthwhile. What is there to lose?

Quite a lot, actually. With the ratification of the Good Friday Agreement, the overwhelming majority of people in Ireland, North and South, decided that enough was enough – time to draw a line under the past and move forward. A “peace and reconciliation forum” would undo all of that and it would inevitably descend into a heavily politicised “whataboutery” forum.

Besides, when a resolution to a conflict has been reached, it makes absolutely no sense to commence a forensic examination of said conflict. There is absolutely no way a sufficient level of “truth” could possibly be reached that would satisfy all parties. There will always be individuals who will demand that more digging needs to be done, because atrocities never occur in isolation - there is always a chain of events with no distinct starting point.

Fenian Army

djpbarry wrote: »

Quite a lot, actually. With the ratification of the Good Friday Agreement, the overwhelming majority of people in Ireland, North and South, decided that enough was enough – time to draw a line under the past and move forward. A “peace and reconciliation forum” would undo all of that and it would inevitably descend into a heavily politicised “whataboutery” forum.

Besides, when a resolution to a conflict has been reached, it makes absolutely no sense to commence a forensic examination of said conflict. There is absolutely no way a sufficient level of “truth” could possibly be reached that would satisfy all parties. There will always be individuals who will demand that more digging needs to be done, because atrocities never occur in isolation - there is always a chain of events with no distinct starting point.

But thats not happening, you still have people being prosecuted for actions during the troubles, and these prosecutions are selective and one sided.

djpbarry

Fenian Army wrote: »

....you still have people being prosecuted for actions during the troubles...

"Prosecuted" is an extremely broad term.

Chuck Stone

The message to British soldiers is 'don't worry too much if you murder a native - you'll be out in two years and pick up where you left off'.

Laminations

Fenian Army wrote: »

But thats not happening, you still have people being prosecuted for actions during the troubles, and these prosecutions are selective and one sided.

Like who? Martin Corey and Marian Price? Michael Stones licence was also revoked by the secretary of state. And other loyalists licences would be too. Can you give me examples of loyalists released under the terms of the GFA who reengaged in paramilitarism whose licences were not revoked? Do you have information about released loyalists not distancing themselves from violent groups? If so contact the PSNI, because you are right they should be treated the same.

Trying to treat the reimprisonment of a convicted terrorist with this British soldier who was never convicted and so has no terms of licence (nor is he engaged with dissidents) receiving a pension is not as easily equatable

Fromthetrees

If I came from anywhere in the UK I would have serious questions to ask, and expect proper justice to be delivered because this is the army.
If they ('we') hold out the same expectations as those applied to 'terrorist murders' than it seriously damages the reputation of the British army. The RIRA don't and won't care how they are perceived.

Stories like this raises serious questions about the BA and its workings and I think exposes them poorly.

Maybe a few long after the fact prosecutions would start to clear the way for many Nationalists to see the BA differently, it would send out a clear message to everyone. British soldiers murdering British civilians on British streets is not acceptable.

If renegade BA officers had been dealt with properly over the last 40 years the troubles could have had a very different and probably less murderous past.

Varied

Chuck Stone wrote: »

The message to British soldiers is 'don't worry too much if you murder a native - you'll be out in two years and pick up where you left off'.

Nobody cares about that part.

"shure the ira are terrorists but the Army are just doin their jobs, derpy derp".

Laminations

Varied wrote: »

Nobody cares about that part.

"shure the ira are terrorists but the Army are just doin their jobs, derpy derp".

People with that view are quite one-sided. Which poster thinks that?

The IRA were terrorist thugs and many in the British Army were just as terrorising and thuggish.

Demonising the IRA and lionising the BA is wrong. Likewise demonising the BA and lionising the IRA is wrong, and far more common on these boards. Also the IRA claimed to act in my name and many who had links with them now want to represent me in the Dail. I don't have that connection to the BA.

gurramok

Laminations wrote: »

People with that view are quite one-sided. Which poster thinks that?

The IRA were terrorist thugs and many in the British Army were just as terrorising and thuggish.

Demonising the IRA and lionising the BA is wrong. Likewise demonising the BA and lionising the IRA is wrong, and far more common on these boards. Also the IRA claimed to act in my name and many who had links with them now want to represent me in the Dail. I don't have that connection to the BA.

So thats cleared up then. The British Army has the same morals are the IRA. Had always thought the BA represented a sovereign nation and abided by the law.

The actions of the BA might not represent you but they represent British posters on this thread nevermind 60million UK citizens, killing kids in their name and getting away with it.

DipStick McSwindler

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djpbarry

gurramok wrote: »

So thats cleared up then. The British Army has the same morals are the IRA.

Nothing’s been “cleared up”. Nobody is defending the British Army.

gurramok wrote: »

Had always thought the BA represented a sovereign nation and abided by the law.

Haven’t the IRA always made similar claims?

IrishFeeney92 wrote: »

I am by no means defending either side in this. the fact is it was WAR.

Actually, it wasn’t. The Troubles have never been classified as anything other than an internal conflict.

gurramok

IrishFeeney92 wrote: »

Cut the moral high ground bulls*it. the IRA are terrorists who bombed civilians. and oh btw do you remember Omagh 15th August 1998 a pregnant woman with her unborn child?

I am by no means defending either side in this. the fact is it was WAR. Sh*t happens in war. the war is over and people need to move on and quit blaming one side over another. both sides were just as bad. but the fact is its over now and we need to move on.

Its important to remember the past, but its also important not to get hung up on it.

No argument about IRA's low morals, the topic is about the BA's lack of morals and specifically Peter McBride's killers having a lovely time in the army after the murder.

Don't you remember the British Army also slaughtered civilians? A few hundred from kids to mothers to priests were murdered in Britain's name, you not outraged at the injustice like the lack of justice we know about for the IRA's victims?

djpbarry wrote:

Haven’t the IRA always made similar claims?

Do you not even know the difference between the two? British army represents the British state in the name of the British people, the IRA were classified as terrorists representing no-one, outlaws.

DipStick McSwindler

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Fenian Army

Went on after 88.

DipStick McSwindler

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djpbarry

gurramok wrote: »

Do you not even know the difference between the two?

Yes, I do, thanks.

gurramok wrote: »

...the IRA were classified as terrorists representing no-one, outlaws.

Is that how they classified/classify themselves?

IrishFeeney92 wrote: »

I know your a mod, but your completely wrong when you say that.

I don’t know what me being a mod has to do with anything, but no, I’m not completely wrong.

IrishFeeney92 wrote: »

Was it between states or nations?

Nope – the paramilitaries involved were/are not a nation or state, nor did/do they represent one.

Laminations

Gurramok, the British army were wrong and soldiers should be held to higher standards than terrorists. I don't think there's enough disagreement around this on which to base a thread. There is little to debate.

My point has been that rather than seeking a general debate on atrocities the OP uses this forum as a blog to highlight and disseminate British-only atrocities and then claims to want a two-way reconciliation commission. These threads are one-sided and only aim to open old wounds after the conflict has largely settled and major figures on both sides have been given reprieves.

Fenian Army

Laminations wrote: »

Gurramok, the British army were wrong and soldiers should be held to higher standards than terrorists. I don't think there's enough disagreement around this on which to base a thread. There is little to debate.

My point has been that rather than seeking a general debate on atrocities the OP uses this forum as a blog to highlight and disseminate British-only atrocities and then claims to want a two-way reconciliation commission. These threads are one-sided and only aim to open old wounds after the conflict has largely settled and major figures on both sides have been given reprieves.

If someone started a thread about evil Gerry Adams and Jean McConville you would be all over it.