Lift clean and place.

Oilbeefhooked!

Confused as to how the pros at the BMW are allowed to place the ball back within a clublength.
Always thought the rule was. 6 inches or the length of a scorecard , pretty sure there would be many occasions where a full driver length would give opportunity to find flatter lies etc!
Little bit unnecessary IMO , or am I being petty??

uberwolf

25-2 wrote:

A ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground in any closely mown area through the green may be lifted, cleaned and dropped, without penalty, as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer the hole. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the course through the green. “Closely-mown area” means any area of the course, including paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less.

thought the same when I was looking at it

kiers47

Oilbeefhooked! wrote: »

Confused as to how the pros at the BMW are allowed to place the ball back within a clublength.
Always thought the rule was. 6 inches or the length of a scorecard , pretty sure there would be many occasions where a full driver length would give opportunity to find flatter lies etc!
Little bit unnecessary IMO , or am I being petty??

I believe it is up to the club's descretion what the distance is. That is why your club and clubs around the country differ but usually ya 6inches or 1 scorecard

PGA tour has Lift Clean and Place ruling of 1 club length no nearer the hole. A bit mad i know.
Speaking of players getting better lies last year in a tournament on the PGA tour (maybe someone else might remember the golfer and tournament) but a player asked the rules official could he place the ball on a sprinkler and get a free drop. Was allowed to he then dropped 1 club length away and then got to lift clean and place within an additional club lenth. I think he ended up moving the ball a total of around 3 club lentghs.

kiers47

kiers47 wrote: »

I believe it is up to the club's descretion what the distance is. That is why your club and clubs around the country differ.

PGA tour has Lift Clean and Place ruling of 1 club length no nearer the hole. A bit mad i know.
Speaking of players getting better lies last year in a tournament on the PGA tour (maybe someone else might remember the golfer and tournament) but a player asked the rules official could he place the ball on a sprinkler and get a free drop. Was allowed to he then dropped 1 club length away and then got to lift clean and place within an additional club lenth. I think he ended up moving the ball a total of around 3 club lentghs.

Googled it there it was Charles Warren in last years Byron Nelson Championship.

Freemount09

kiers47 wrote: »

I believe it is up to the club's descretion what the distance is. That is why your club and clubs around the country differ.

PGA tour has Lift Clean and Place ruling of 1 club length no nearer the hole. A bit mad i know.
Speaking of players getting better lies last year in a tournament on the PGA tour (maybe someone else might remember the golfer and tournament) but a player asked the rules official could he place the ball on a sprinkler and get a free drop. Was allowed to he then dropped 1 club length away and then got to lift clean and place within an additional club lenth. I think he ended up moving the ball a total of around 3 club lentghs.

Wow, don't know if that's clever or questionable !?!?

Jim Furyk (I think?) a few wks ago, used the full length of his driver, to move out towards middle of fairway in order to get a line to the green, from a position where the trees were in his way. Remember thinking at the time, that, while he was within his rights, I thought that it was abit unethical that he could get out of this type of trouble by placing so far from where he was after driving the ball.

Mr. Larson

Freemount09 wrote: »

kiers47 wrote: »

I believe it is up to the club's descretion what the distance is. That is why your club and clubs around the country differ.

PGA tour has Lift Clean and Place ruling of 1 club length no nearer the hole. A bit mad i know.
Speaking of players getting better lies last year in a tournament on the PGA tour (maybe someone else might remember the golfer and tournament) but a player asked the rules official could he place the ball on a sprinkler and get a free drop. Was allowed to he then dropped 1 club length away and then got to lift clean and place within an additional club lenth. I think he ended up moving the ball a total of around 3 club lentghs.

Wow, don't know if that's clever or questionable !?!?

Jim Furyk (I think?) a few wks ago, used the full length of his driver, to move out towards middle of fairway in order to get a line to the green, from a position where the trees were in his way. Remember thinking at the time, that, while he was within his rights, I thought that it was abit unethical that he could get out of this type of trouble by placing so far from where he was after driving the ball.

Rory just used it on the fringe to get away from a collar of rough. Driver to the side just off the green.

Oilbeefhooked!

Mr. Larson wrote: »

Freemount09 wrote: »

kiers47 wrote: »

I believe it is up to the club's descretion what the distance is. That is why your club and clubs around the country differ.

PGA tour has Lift Clean and Place ruling of 1 club length no nearer the hole. A bit mad i know.
Speaking of players getting better lies last year in a tournament on the PGA tour (maybe someone else might remember the golfer and tournament) but a player asked the rules official could he place the ball on a sprinkler and get a free drop. Was allowed to he then dropped 1 club length away and then got to lift clean and place within an additional club lenth. I think he ended up moving the ball a total of around 3 club lentghs.

Wow, don't know if that's clever or questionable !?!?

Jim Furyk (I think?) a few wks ago, used the full length of his driver, to move out towards middle of fairway in order to get a line to the green, from a position where the trees were in his way. Remember thinking at the time, that, while he was within his rights, I thought that it was abit unethical that he could get out of this type of trouble by placing so far from where he was after driving the ball.

Rory just used it on the fringe to get away from a collar of rough. Driver to the side just off the green.

Yeah saw that with Rory and thought it was a bit dubious,almost got him putting on the green rather than the fringe up against the collar!!
Personally can't see any reason whatsoever ,in that the six inch rule is not adequate! I mean the rule is there in wet conditions to clean mud off the ball and replace near to original position!?
But hey if your not breaking a rule , your not breaking a rule!!
But i find it Very strange the way the rules of golf ,are so harsh in eg. G mac getting 2 stroke penalty for brushing a leaf in a bunker but then on the other hand - allow people to gain advantages when replacing balls??!!
Don't even get me started on the ones that use a 5 ft putter for the 1 clublength !! Grrrr

WH BONNEY

Oilbeefhooked! wrote: »

Yeah saw that with Rory and thought it was a bit dubious,almost got him putting on the green rather than the fringe up against the collar!!

Ah sure if it was Keegan with his long putter it would have been a gimmie when he was finished.

thewobbler

WH BONNEY wrote: »

Oilbeefhooked! wrote: »

Yeah saw that with Rory and thought it was a bit dubious,almost got him putting on the green rather than the fringe up against the collar!!

Ah sure if it was Keegan with his long putter it would have been a gimmie when he was finished.

To be honest, lift clean and place is one of the few times in golf when we should focus in on those who don't take advantage, rather than those who do.

Regardless of whether you agree with the rule or not, it has been designed to ensure you can still score in difficult conditions. Not taking maximum benefit from this opportunity might suggest you don't actually want to win.

Oilbeefhooked!

thewobbler wrote: »

WH BONNEY wrote: »

Oilbeefhooked! wrote: »

Yeah saw that with Rory and thought it was a bit dubious,almost got him putting on the green rather than the fringe up against the collar!!

Ah sure if it was Keegan with his long putter it would have been a gimmie when he was finished.

To be honest, lift clean and place is one of the few times in golf when we should focus in on those who don't take advantage, rather than those who do.

Regardless of whether you agree with the rule or not, it has been designed to ensure you can still score in difficult conditions. Not taking maximum benefit from this opportunity might suggest you don't actually want to win.[/Quote

Totally agree mate youve got to use the rules to your advantage as everyone else in the field will.
But my original post was questioning the rule itself and any logic behind taking a full club length when it can mean as much as 5 ft - when 6 inches allows for cleaning and placing of the ball in the vacinity of its original position!
Just think its especially crazy around the greens where they are moving the ball a full club length to get a flatter/ more uphill putt??!
Very wrong IMHO

charlieIRL

Bit late asking this now, but in the BMW - is it clean and place everywhere? Even off the fairway?

Also I always thought you had only one chance to place it and not keep replacing until you we happy you got the best lie. Seen Veejay place it a few times earlier.

WH BONNEY

To be honest, lift clean and place is one of the few times in golf when we should focus in on those who don't take advantage, rather than those who do.

Regardless of whether you agree with the rule or not, it has been designed to ensure you can still score in difficult conditions. Not taking maximum benefit from this opportunity might suggest you don't actually want to win.

TBH anybody who is willing to use a long putter to gain relief of one club length does not rate very highly on my scale of sporting people, whether it is within the rules or not.

charlieIRL

WH BONNEY wrote: »

TBH anybody who is willing to use a long putter to gain relief of one club length does not rate very highly on my scale of sporting people, whether it is within the rules or not.

too right, there should be a max club length. ie a 6 iron or that. Not driver or putter

Ludo

charlieIRL wrote: »

Bit late asking this now, but in the BMW - is it clean and place everywhere? Even off the fairway?

Fairways only I believe.

charlieIRL

Ludo wrote: »

Fairways only I believe.

was thinking that but it looked like westwood was placing his ball in the rough there a few mins ago??

Oilbeefhooked!

charlieIRL wrote: »

Ludo wrote: »

Fairways only I believe.

was thinking that but it looked like westwood was placing his ball in the rough there a few mins ago??

Def closely mown areas only, never saw Westwood incident!!

charlieIRL

Oilbeefhooked! wrote: »

Def closely mown areas only, never saw Westwood incident!!

cant remember the hole but McIlroy was up beside Westwood and it looked like Westwood had a tee in the grass marking ball location just off the green. Maybe I'm seeing things!!!

Oilbeefhooked!

charlieIRL wrote: »

Oilbeefhooked! wrote: »

Def closely mown areas only, never saw Westwood incident!!

cant remember the hole but McIlroy was up beside Westwood and it looked like Westwood had a tee in the grass marking ball location just off the green. Maybe I'm seeing things!!!

The first cut around the green is ok and they can take club length.

charlieIRL

Oilbeefhooked! wrote: »

The first cut around the green is ok and they can take club length.

Was outside the first cut, was in the long grass.

Oilbeefhooked!

charlieIRL wrote: »

Oilbeefhooked! wrote: »

The first cut around the green is ok and they can take club length.

Was outside the first cut, was in the long grass.

Sound dodgy alright then!!

charlieIRL

Oilbeefhooked! wrote: »

Sound dodgy alright then!!

maybe it was just me but it didn't look right at the time.


Anyway - anyone know can you keep placing the ball until your happy?

Oilbeefhooked!

charlieIRL wrote: »

Oilbeefhooked! wrote: »

Sound dodgy alright then!!

maybe it was just me but it didn't look right at the time.


Anyway - anyone know can you keep placing the ball until your happy?

Always thought and play - once you have taken your hand off it then the ball has been placed, no going back!

charlieIRL

Oilbeefhooked! wrote: »

Always thought and play - once you have taken your hand off it then the ball has been placed, no going back!

well i'm 110% sure Veejay placing the ball a few times before settling on it.

What you said it what i've always believed and used myself.

PARlance

charlieIRL wrote: »

Oilbeefhooked! wrote: »

Always thought and play - once you have taken your hand off it then the ball has been placed, no going back!

well i'm 110% sure Veejay placing the ball a few times before settling on it.

What you said it what i've always believed and used myself.

Had a look on R&A there, can't find anything to clarify.
But can't you can mark and place your ball on green more than once?
Eg you've cleaned your ball and aligned your putt. You then realise you've lined (line on ball) it up wrong... You can mark it and place it again.

That would lead me to think you can place it several times as long as permitted area is clearly marked at the time.

PARlance

....as long as permitted area is clearly marked at the time.

That being key point.
Once you've removed the tees/markers that define the placement area then you can re-place after that

slave1

thewobbler wrote: »

...Regardless of whether you agree with the rule or not, it has been designed to ensure you can still score in difficult conditions. ....

Not disagreeing with you but I would have said the spirit of the rule was to remove mud etc. from the ball to allow players a clean ball to strike and control

acejeff

Oilbeefhooked! wrote: »

Sound dodgy alright then!!

I think in that situation westwood needed to lift the ball to identify it was his, looked like some pretty lush stuff where he was, that's why he had mcilroy over to let him know and he placed it back exactly where he had put the tee down so he was not moving the ball from its original spot.

TheDoc

charlieIRL wrote: »

Also I always thought you had only one chance to place it and not keep replacing until you we happy you got the best lie. Seen Veejay place it a few times earlier.

I was under the impression it was whilst you still had the marker down, similar with putting. Once you remove your marker you can't put it back and go again.

acejeff

The one club length rule for lift clean and place on the pga tour is a bit of a farse. The intention is eliminate the disadvantage of having mud pick up on the ball not to allow players to gain an advantage of finding a flatter lie on the fairway, moving away from line of sight of a tree, moving the ball almost on to the green etc. While the rule exists the players are correct to use it to their advantage, after all it is within the rules as defined and they would be at a disadvantage from other players were they not to do it. However I don't think it's good for the integrity of the game and a 6-inch rule would be sufficient.

BigChap1759

charlieIRL wrote: »

Was outside the first cut, was in the long grass.

I think he was just identifying his ball as the rough was so thick just off the green

AldilaMan

TheDoc wrote: »

I was under the impression it was whilst you still had the marker down, similar with putting. Once you remove your marker you can't put it back and go again.

My understanding in putting is that you can mark and replace as often as you want. Are you saying that in putting once you've lifted the marker after replacing the ball you can't mark it again and realign it?

GreeBo

AldilaMan wrote: »

My understanding in putting is that you can mark and replace as often as you want. Are you saying that in putting once you've lifted the marker after replacing the ball you can't mark it again and realign it?

On the putting green you can place/replace multiple times.
Anywhere else once the ball is in play I dont see how you would be entitled to lift/replace again.

PARlance

GreeBo wrote: »

On the putting green you can place/replace multiple times.
Anywhere else once the ball is in play I dont see how you would be entitled to lift/replace again.

I had a look at the R&A last night and couldn't get any clarification.
But I take it that by it's omission, you could place it numerous times as long as the placement area is still marked.

Is there anywhere that says you can place/replace multiple times on the green?
I think it is just assumed that if you replace in the ball in the correct spot (on the green) or in the correct area (off the green) that it can be done multiple times.

GreeBo

ajcurry123 wrote: »

I had a look at the R&A last night and couldn't get any clarification.
But I take it that by it's omission, you could place it numerous times as long as the placement area is still marked.

Is there anywhere that says you can place/replace multiple times on the green?
I think it is just assumed that if you replace in the ball in the correct spot (on the green) or in the correct area (off the green) that it can be done multiple times.

My logic is that you are always entitled to mark your ball on the green.
On the fairway you are entitled to lift, clean and place. Once you have done this once and the ball is back in play I'm not sure what right you have to do it again. I see it as the same scenario as taking any sort of drop, once the ball is in play you cant drop it again.
But agreed, I couldnt find a definitive rule or decision on it.

PARlance

Think I may have found the answer to prove myself wrong Greebo.

Rule 20-4 - When Ball Dropped or Placed is in Play
"If the player’s ball in play has been lifted, it is again in play when dropped or placed."

GreeBo

ajcurry123 wrote: »

Think I may have found the answer to prove myself wrong Greebo.

Rule 20-4 - When Ball Dropped or Placed is in Play
"If the player’s ball in play has been lifted, it is again in play when dropped or placed."

But that doesnt answer the real questions:
"once a ball is in play can it be replaced?"
the ball was in play after your drive and you get to lift, clean, place. so who is to say you only get to do it once...

PARlance

GreeBo wrote: »

But that doesnt answer the real questions:
"once a ball is in play can it be replaced?"
the ball was in play after your drive and you get to lift, clean, place. so who is to say you only get to do it once...

Ok, I think I've gone 720 degrees on this since last night.
Amazing how looking at the same rule at different times can cause different conclusions.

Just as well we live in a country that means that winter rules rarely come into the reckoning

Almaviva

Always presumed you could Lift-Clean-Place as often as you liked. I guess the confusion comes from dropping for relief where the rules correctly do not allow you to drop again if you dont like the lie you got. But for lift/clean/place after you have done so, the ball is as 'in play' as it was before you lifted it the first time. So rules-wise, nothing has changed and so you are free to repoeat the procedure if you wish. It is there to give you relief without penalty from conditions, so nothing unfairly to be gained by doing it repeatedly.

PARlance

Almaviva wrote: »

Always presumed you could Lift-Clean-Place as often as you liked. I guess the confusion comes from dropping for relief where the rules correctly do not allow you to drop again if you dont like the lie you got. But for lift/clean/place after you have done so, the ball is as 'in play' as it was before you lifted it the first time. So rules-wise, nothing has changed and so you are free to repoeat the procedure if you wish. It is there to give you relief without penalty from conditions, so nothing unfairly to be gained by doing it repeatedly.

So if you legally drop your ball into an area where there is lift, clean and place in play.... My brain can't take anymore

TheDoc

What, a rule not well defined? :P

Its a weird one alright. I usually deploy the chess thing with it. If you lift your hand of the piece the move is done, if you lift your marker then the ball is in play.

I was under the impression anyway that once your have your marker down ( tee in ground for fairway , marker for green) you can pretty much move and place as often as you like as you have not yet declared the ball back in play.

One you lift your tee or marker, the ball is deemed back in play and thats that.

Didn't realise you could do it multiple times whilst on the green, is there a specific rule extract explaining that, I'd still be vary of being able to re-mark my ball on the green multiple times.

Typically you see most pros leave their market behind the ball until they are 100% confident etc., I've never seen anyone remark on a green before, but leaving the marker there even whilst the ball is alinged until your happy, I've seen plenty.

Oilbeefhooked!

TheDoc wrote: »

What, a rule not well defined? :P

Its a weird one alright. I usually deploy the chess thing with it. If you lift your hand of the piece the move is done, if you lift your marker then the ball is in play.

I was under the impression anyway that once your have your marker down ( tee in ground for fairway , marker for green) you can pretty much move and place as often as you like as you have not yet declared the ball back in play.

One you lift your tee or marker, the ball is deemed back in play and thats that.

Didn't realise you could do it multiple times whilst on the green, is there a specific rule extract explaining that, I'd still be vary of being able to re-mark my ball on the green multiple times.

Typically you see most pros leave their market behind the ball until they are 100% confident etc., I've never seen anyone remark on a green before, but leaving the marker there even whilst the ball is alinged until your happy, I've seen plenty.

I have def see pros return a remark/ realign their ball on the green many times.
Don't see that it's the same for lift clean place on fairways though, as previously said I think you have one go and once you remove marker the ball is in play and you must proceed!!
Totally agree though it should be clearer, often play with guys who don't even put tee in the ground, just pick I up and move its few inches!!
And yes I do pull them up on it!

PARlance

TheDoc wrote: »

Didn't realise you could do it multiple times whilst on the green, is there a specific rule extract explaining that, I'd still be vary of being able to re-mark my ball on the green multiple times.

Typically you see most pros leave their market behind the ball until they are 100% confident etc., I've never seen anyone remark on a green before, but leaving the marker there even whilst the ball is alinged until your happy, I've seen plenty.

I think the rules would have to allow you to mark the ball multiple times on the green.

Scenario:
You are on the green some distance from hole.
Playing partner is off green and has a chip in.
There is no real danger (depends on if you're playing with me or not ) of your playing partner chipping near your ball.
It would need a 10ft chip in to go 30 feet off line.
So in order to keep the game flowing you proceed to mark, align and replace ball before you're playing partner chips in.

Player partner makes an absolute dogs dinner of chip and lands in a few inches behind your ball.

You'd have to be allowed to remark you're ball in this scenario.....



And yes, I was the Player Partner in the above scenario