Honors Maths Class kids have no desks

TAM1234

Hi, Just wanted to get some feed back on how other schools organise Maths classes. My DD has just started back into 2nd year, there is 4 classes in her year. They have been streamed into two honors maths classes and 2 ordinary level classes. The problem is is that there are 36 kids in the honors maths classes in classrooms that only hold 30 kids, so 6 kids have NO desks and are sitting on the window sills. The idea is that one of the ordinary classes is not full and will take the kids who decide that honors maths is not for them. Now I have a huge problem with this arrangement, as instead of trying to hold the kids at the higher level and give them all the encouragement to do so, they will be encouraging them back into ordinary level. I rang the school and was told basically that this was the arrangement and they weren't changing it. I talked to the vice head, and waiting a call back from the head. So I need to know what to do next. I've already mentioned bringing it to the parents council, but I know nobody on that. Any advice?

Spook_ie

Hi, I also have a child who has just gone into 2nd year, and has also been streamed into Honours Maths. You say that the idea is that some honours students will drop to ordinary level therefore eventually everyone will have a seat - is this you thinking this or has a member of staff actually said this ? My child that has just gone into 2nd is the youngest of our brood, and from experience Honours maths is not for everyone, and I would expect that if any child were to drop down to ordinary it would be after the Christmas exams, but also bear in mind, that the opposite can happen too ie that an Ordinary level student can do exceptionally well and be put into the Honours class.
I do agree with you that every child should have a desk & a seat and sitting on the windowsill is not acceptable and the school should be making every effort to facilitate this.

overshoot

would say a huge amount of schools have had this problem which isnt right but in the end its not going to be corrected short term so il just say, tell the teacher to bring in 6 more chairs and do 3 to 2 desks its at least more comfortable and you have something proper to write on.

had this problem myself in 04/05 year for leaving cert so i can only imagine with the cuts its even more widespread

TAM1234

My main problem with the arrangement is that is is basically setting the kids up to drop back to ordinary level, they've already been told 'Sure all of you won't be doing honors'. This is my first to go to secord level, she is bright and I see her doing Honors Maths, but my next DD is in 6th class and I would see her as a borderline case it is really putting me off sending her to the same school.

overshoot

in the end it wont matter what the teachers say, your kid is going to know if they are fit for it or not... i was definately not fit for hons Irish, did it til the end of 4th year to cover the pass course and dropped so 5th year (no 6th with us) was just revision. with effort i knew i would have passed but then it was about playing the points game too and where you are fit to pick up marks, no point in throwing hours at a something that would give better pay off elsewhere

like it or not 36 will not be doing higher level come exam time, come leaving cert it could be a direct reverse and pass is overcrowded. there is no guarantee another school would be any different. plus you must also look at it... (even if they could fund an extra class) when the numbers drop off and you end up with smaller classes, higher powers could look for them to be merged, then differnent teachers may have covered differnet things and that would be more detrimental to the students imo

Spook_ie

I do see where you are coming from Tam1234, I think that all students should be strongly encouraged to do as many subjects to Honours level till Junior Cert and that certainly is the philosophy in my kids secondary school unless of course a child is obviously struggling.

spurious

This dilemma has been in some smaller schools for years - how to make the resources allow for the maximum number of children to do as high a level as they can.

The cuts are hitting all schools now, even those who were able to cushion the children somewhat from cuts in the past.
It's only going to get worse.

I know of a Dublin school that has had to completely drop Science from both JC and the Biology they did at LC.
A school without Science subjects? it's almost unbelievable in today's world.

EoghanIRL

spurious wrote: »

This dilemma has been in some smaller schools for years - how to make the resources allow for the maximum number of children to do as high a level as they can.

The cuts are hitting all schools now, even those who were able to cushion the children somewhat from cuts in the past.
It's only going to get worse.

I know of a Dublin school that has had to completely drop Science from both JC and the Biology they did at LC.
A school without Science subjects? it's almost unbelievable in today's world.

It's true. My school has 777 students this year . We never have had a problem with resources/ classes. This has all changed. This year we have about 34 per class( core subjects ) . I had to sit on the windows till one day . As the class room is only designed for 30 peOple there is always approx 3 people in maths/irish with no desks . I find it unacceptable but what can you do.

The House Of Wolves

I can echo these sentiments. I'm in 5th year, and on our first day in honours maths, a few extra desks were pushed in the room and we were made do. There were 38 of us. Two have dropped since then, deciding it's not worth their time. But everyone else is waiting until the JC results, as that and the results of a test will determine if you are made drop to pass. I don't test well, so I can foresee pass maths in my future, despite having purchased the €30 book. It's a disgrace.

RH149

Your dissatisfaction is understandable but your anger should be directed at the Department of Ed and its cuts which are being felt in your daughter's school and all schools. The fact that there are 36 students in her class means that the school is trying to facilitate as many students as possible when it comes to Higher Level Maths rather than dropping it or refusing those extra 6 students the opportunity to try Higher Level once the class is full (which it is once the number reaches 30). The union guidelines for class size is 30 for general subjects so no teacher is obliged to teach an overcrowded class but many teachers break the union rule out of consideration for students and in extreme circumstances.....they shouldn't do it and I suppose the alternative is to have three Ordinary classes and only allow the top 30 students sit comfortably in the HL class........not a desirable situation either. The reason the classes only fit 30 desks is because that is the maximum number any teacher should have in front of them.
You're right that the assumption that not all 36 will remain at HL is a negative one but it is a realistic one and based on years of experience. If teachers expected to have 36+ students in a class long term they would quite rightly refuse to teach that class. Knowing that traditionally the class will get smaller makes the situation bearable in the short term for both students and teachers-it really isn't just to discourage them. It is the usual practise to do this while awaiting Junior Cert results which will also affect numbers in the classes.
If the Dept of Ed allocated the actual required number of teachers to schools all students would be encouraged to try subjects and levels from an unlimited subject choice. Unfortunately the cuts in Education means that temporary teachers are losing jobs,teachers who retire aren't replaced (hence overcrowded classes) and some languages/Science subjects being dropped. It sounds like your daughter's school is doing its best to encourage as many as possible to try Higher Level Maths. The really hard working and able students will continue with it so I would just support your daughter as much as possible to ensure she is one of those. I would also lobby your local TDs about the situation .....the Principal or her Deputy are not going to be able to produce an extra teacher or a larger classroom out of a hat. Not meaning to sound flippant but you are seeing the cuts in action here.

byhookorbycrook

I agree that it is not the school's fault. Fair play ot the teacher for taking on 36 kids!However, on a practical level, can kids share desks,put two desks together for three kids?

rainbowtrout

TAM1234 wrote: »

My main problem with the arrangement is that is is basically setting the kids up to drop back to ordinary level, they've already been told 'Sure all of you won't be doing honors'. This is my first to go to secord level, she is bright and I see her doing Honors Maths, but my next DD is in 6th class and I would see her as a borderline case it is really putting me off sending her to the same school.

It's probably not right to say to kids 'some of you will drop to ordinary level'. I encourage my students to stick with higher level for as long as possible although I know by third year some will take the ordinary level paper. No big deal.

Kids sitting on window sills is not good. 36 in the class is not good. The school allowing 36 in a class is not so bad even though it might seem like that at the moment. Some schools would have just taken the results from the first year summer test (assuming all first years sat a standardised test) and the top 30 would have been put into the honours class and the rest told tough luck, there's no room at the inn.

The school is right though, even if they have approached it in the wrong way. Not all of those students will stay the pace, some will move to ordinary level. It's just that the overcrowding might prompt this faster than it would happen in smaller sized classes.

The other thing is any schools that were built relatively recently aren't designed to accommodate that many students in a room. The school I work in was only built about 10 years ago and most classrooms were only designed with 24 students in mind. There are a few that hold more than that, but max capacity is generally 30. I have a computer class (not as important as it is not an exam subject) where I have 33 in the room. Computer rooms being what they are are not the type of place where you can just ram in a few extra desks.

Also have another class of 28 and am timetabled for a room that is designed to hold about 20-22 students max. I normally give my seat to whatever student is in last as there aren't enough chairs in the room so they don't waste time going to another classroom to get one. This is cuts in action.

aisher

Another way to look at the situation is that the teacher concerned is giving all the kids the opportunity of taking the subject at higher level rather then taking the easy option of saying he will only take a max of 30 and that the remaining 6 will have to go into an ordinary class and be taught the higher level along side the ordinary level which is not a good situation for anyone. Its not the fault of the teacher or the school if they dont have the teaching hours to go around - take your anger out on the Dept .of Ed. with all the cutbacks - Re. the school - ask for additional stools to be brought into the class but if you make a fuss dont be surprised if the good will of the staff members being willing to take more then 30 in a class stops.

IMightKnow

In 2006 (much much better economic situation than now) I was in an honours Irish class of 34 students, there were only 30 desks so 4 were on stools if there was full attendance.

This was the case till about Christmas.

I didnt, and still dont, see a problem with it

And this was a school with a very good reputation

MathsManiac

The arrangement is unsatisfactory - if the classroom was big enough to take extra desks, and the teachers happy to do it, then these larger classes might be ok if the school was fairly sure that some were going to drop back.

But teaching mixed level classes should not be problematic. I've done it fairly often in the past. It's par for the course in many subjects, but maths teachers aren't as used to it. It's a bit more inconvenient, as it requires more planning, particularly if you haven't done it before.

So, if I were involved in organising things in that school, I would leave the two higher level clasees with 30 each, put the remaining 12 into a mixed class with about the same number of students from the better end of ordinary level, and have the remaining ordinary students in the fourth class. If the teachers co-operate in their planning, they can arrange progress so that a re-organisation is possible at Christmas or at the end of the year if students do want to drop back to such an extent that the mixed class is no longer needed.

The numbers taking higher level maths everywhere are likely to grow a bit over the next few years, I would think, so schools are going to have to think about how best to manage a change from the patterns they are used to.

Emliee

Yes I know!!
At my school, there is way more over the legal limit of thirty in my sisters class
and the first day back in maths, the teacher was like, "Now, honours maths is so hard. You will be getting 2 hours math homework every night, and if you didn't get a B in the junior cert you have no chance in the leaving."
Discouraging higher level maths students? I don't get it?

rainbowtrout

Emliee wrote: »

Yes I know!!
At my school, there is way more over the legal limit of thirty in my sisters class
and the first day back in maths, the teacher was like, "Now, honours maths is so hard. You will be getting 2 hours math homework every night, and if you didn't get a B in the junior cert you have no chance in the leaving."
Discouraging higher level maths students? I don't get it?

It does sound negative but to be fair it is realistic. A C grade in any subject at any level is an average mark and if a student had to work hard just to get a C grade in higher level maths for junior cert they are going to find higher level maths for Leaving Cert difficult. In my experience C students in higher level JC maths end up doing ordinary level for Leaving Cert because they are not able for the step up in pace and difficulty.

Schools often accommodate C grade students at the start of fifth year by putting them in the higher level class but within a few weeks most if not all of them move to ordinary level.

Aoife78

There is 34 in Honours English and 32 in my German.. 2 from my English have moved down to ordinary because the teacher just can't give attention to everyone and if you fall behind you can't catch up. 32in my German and my teacher can't control the class.. She put me down the back because im reliable and I have learned nothing this year so far I'm so scared for the JC!!