Guard/Attack (Protection) dog training in Ireland

mstq

Hello

I have a 5 months old german shepherd and i'm looking around for place where she could be trained.
Only place I have found was k9 security, but a quick research, shown a bad record on their side, and therefore, highly unsuitable for me. Can anyone maybe confirm or deny this?

Is there any other place in Ireland (preferably near dublin), where they train guard dogs?

cheers

BillyMitchel

mstq wrote: »

Hello

I have a 5 months old german shepherd and i'm looking around for place where she could be trained.
Only place I have found was k9 security, but a quick research, shown a bad record on their side, and therefore, highly unsuitable for me. Can anyone maybe confirm or deny this?

Is there any other place in Ireland (preferably near dublin), where they train guard dogs?

cheers

All depends on your dog too, just because you have a German Shep doesn't mean he'll take to it naturally or even be able up for it at all. Did you get him from working lines?

To answer the question GS clubs could be best. I've never heard anything bad about k9 either. Could try some of the Belgian Malinos club too, I'm sure a lot of their folk work their dogs and could point you in the right direction.

Doing it as a sport or actually looking for the dog to guard something?

All the best!

fatmammycat

Do you actually need the dog trained as a guard dog? Would it not come naturally to her? Or do you mean as an attack/protection dog?
The reason I ask is I've a GSD pup here, and he's starting to naturally alert me to every sound that he's unsure of. He's got such acute hearing he can hear my other half at the door seconds before he has his key in the lock and barks a quite serious sounding bark until he recognises who it is. He is also starting to investigate sounds now, as opposed to simply alerting when he hears them.

mstq

What do you mean by "working lines"?

Looking for training for the dog to guard something - my ass. So I need a good training place... I don't want to end up with a compound dog.

tk123

fatmammycat wrote: »

Do you actually need the dog trained as a guard dog? Would it not come naturally to her? Or do you mean as an attack/protection dog?
The reason I ask is I've a GSD pup here, and he's starting to naturally alert me to every sound that he's unsure of. He's got such acute hearing he can hear my other half at the door seconds before he has his key in the lock and barks a quite serious sounding bark until he recognises who it is. He is also starting to investigate sounds now, as opposed to simply alerting when he hears them.

+1 the pup will start to guard as it gets older - at 5 months this will start happening soon enough. What exactly do you want to train the dog to do - attack on command etc or save you from being attacked?

BillyMitchel

mstq wrote: »

What do you mean by "working lines"?

Looking for training for the dog to guard something - my ass. So I need a good training place... I don't want to end up with a compound dog.

Most working breeds have different lines/bloodlines. Generation after generation it could be bred for working, showing or pet. Sometimes even all three! Dogs are bred for specific traits and breeders try keep them traits.

Show German Sheps would be different to working lines. Google is your friend! Lots of info there especially regarding the German Sheps and the difference between working and show types.

For example the average back yard breeder who throws out German Sheps, that dog 95% of the time would be pretty useless at PP/guard work because it was just bred for the sake of it and without specific traits. Pretty sure it wouldn't make it in the show world either. Of course there is always exceptions.

Training a dog for guard and PP work takes lots of time and patience and not all dogs are able for it. A professional would be able to evaluate a pup and check its temperment/drive/nerve to see if it's up to the task at hand. Lots of dogs don't make it.

Assassins Creed

Are you looking to train with the dog. Weekly classes, building a bond, learning about your gsd, learning how to manage a gsd and produce a well balanced dog or is it the macho my dog is a killer appeal ? Your second post on protecting my ass and not a compound dog is not gonna have people jumping in with recommendations to be honest.

Is the dog a family dog.

who_me

(If you haven't already) you'd might want to consider the liability implications of such training.

If someone were to be injured by the dog, and - in these more litigious days - the court were to find out you had the dog so trained, it might weigh heavily against you.

mstq

Assassinscreed wrote:

Are you looking to train with the dog.
Are you looking to train with the dog.

Yes

Building a bond: no. the dog is well "bonded". reconsigned my sister without any problems, even thou, she was gone for 2 month holiday.
Learning about/managing GSD: no. I had gsd before. Was with us for 14 years.

macho my dog is a killer appeal

She is a killer. She killed a stuffed plushy grizzly bear and slain a dragon. All on her own! She also brought down nokia phone charger to it's plug connectors, to beg for mercy.

Your second post on protecting my ass and not a compound dog

You are contradicting your self. If I said, I do not want a compound dog, I obviously, don't want an aggressive, dangerous "thing", right?
And my ass is what she's due to protect. Cars and other things are insured. Cannot buy an insurance, that will buy me a new life, can I?

Yes, it's a family dog, but unlike other family dogs, she's not meant to be a toy.

who me wrote:

(If you haven't already) you'd might want to consider the liability implications of such training

There is no legal implications for the dog receiving a professional protection training.

Maybe we didn't quite understand each other...

This is preety much what I'd expect as end result:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRaCv4Njcnk

peteb2

mstq wrote: »

Yes

There is no legal implications for the dog receiving a professional protection training.

Sure there is, it gives you problems under your household insurance as it changes from pet to guard dog and likely excludes any liability arising from dog injuring someone. Pretty sure there is probably something in the small print of your pet insurance too.

doctorchopper

did you try these guys
http://www.topdogtraining.ie/protection-training/

tk123

I don't see the point in this tbh?! The dog will naturally protect your property and everyone in it... Outside the house/garden its going to have to be muzzled kept on a lead since its a gsd so not going to be able to attack anyone?

doctorchopper

tk123 wrote: »

I don't see the point in this tbh?! The dog will naturally protect your property and everyone in it... Outside the house/garden its going to have to be muzzled kept on a lead since its a gsd so not going to be able to attack anyone?

How many GSD or restricted dogs have you seen on a muzzle, i know its the law but who really abides by it

BillyMitchel

tk123 wrote: »

I don't see the point in this tbh?! The dog will naturally protect your property and everyone in it... Outside the house/garden its going to have to be muzzled kept on a lead since its a gsd so not going to be able to attack anyone?

This is a common misconception people have when they get guardian breeds. Yes it might make you aware if someone someone entered your premises but if the aggressor act tacked you or the dog can you 100% certain say that the dog will continue to attack/bite the intruder? Most untrained dogs will not. Only dogs trained by professionals will. Your average dog lack the temperment/nerve but as I said before there is always exceptions. Having a strong bond with your dog will get some sort of reaction though.

OP do you know what the goals the breeder had with their dogs?

Good video on YouTube that puts a camera in the household when the owners are out and someone breaks into their house. I think every single time the untrained dog done nothing.

mstq

tk123 wrote:

I don't see the point in this tbh?! The dog will naturally protect your property and everyone in it... Outside the house/garden its going to have to be muzzled kept on a lead since its a gsd so not going to be able to attack anyone?

so do humans have natural instincts, but hell, if someone will break into your house, wielding a bat, you will run. dog that will be hit will run as well.
the training's aim is not to make the dog attack, it will do so, it's about how to attack. it's getting the dog to attack the hand with which the aggressor is holding his weapon with.

doctorchopper wrote:

How many GSD or restricted dogs have you seen on a muzzle, i know its the law but who really abides by it

HA! there's is a dog area in a park nearby. on the entrance there is a list of dogs that are not allowed... guess, how many dogs that are NOT on that list, would be in the area? XD

billymitchel wrote:

OP do you know what the goals the breeder had with their dogs?

None I quess. Father was a competition dog with many awards and championships, thou, I have no idea what sort of competition those were.

tk123

BillyMitchel wrote: »

This is a common misconception people have when they get guardian breeds. Yes it might make you aware if someone someone entered your premises but if the aggressor act tacked you or the dog can you 100% certain say that the dog will continue to attack/bite the intruder? Most untrained dogs will not. Only dogs trained by professionals will. Your average dog lack the temperment/nerve but as I said before there is always exceptions. Having a strong bond with your dog will get some sort of reaction though.

Ah I get what you're saying now - apologies OP - I thought you mean barking at somebody coming in the garden/looking over the wall..not coming in with bats etc! Maybe this is what you're after OP - there was a post a while back about it - Schutzhund training

BillyMitchel

OP the best best for yourself is to bring your dog to a trainer and they'll be able to test your dog.

If your looking for it straight away I'm afraid you'll have to wait awhile as most dogs aren't ready for such intense training till they are over a year, maybe more. As far as I'm aware they need advanced obedience first too.

The Sweeper

+1 - the vast majority of dogs won't protect you unless they're actively trained to protect you. The sort of dog that has a chance of proactively protecting you without training isn't a good family pet - it'll be a dog that has a trigger and will attack if provoked, and if you haven't trained it then you haven't channelled that aggression and more importantly you haven't trained the dog to release or not latch on in the first place.

The best guardian breeds were bred to look intimidating and make a hell of a lot of noise. Even the big molosser types are bred to defend - bull mastiff, neapolitan mastiff, so on. Dogs like the Boer Boel and the Maremma are more likely to attack an intruder than simply bail him up in a corner and bark their heads off - but again dogs like that are not dogs for everyone.

Most burglars will avoid a house with a loudly barking dog, but someone intent on attacking you may not be deterred. Plus if it's someone who knows dogs you're in trouble - if the attacker makes friendly overtures to the dog, the dog will befriend him. (We spend our dogs' whole lives socialising them - it's unrealistic to expect them to then react to a friendly overture with aggression.)

If you feel your home needs active defending, get a security system that contacts the local police.

**Vai**

mstq wrote: »

Looking for training for the dog to guard something - my ass. So I need a good training place... I don't want to end up with a compound dog.

You want a personal protection dog then? Thats gonna take lots of time and money. Where do you and your family live? South Central LA?

fenris

I think that you need to be clear about the role that you expect the dog to fulfill.

You can have a very good solid obedient family dog that will alert bark, bark on command and even fix an intruder / threat by barking growling etc. without using a bite, there is no aggression just the appearance of it, to the dog it is as much of a game as playing fetch, there is no fear involved.
That pretty much describes the basic Schutzhund standard dog, where you have effectively been trained along with your dog. In Germany that is the norm for certain breeds. The Irish Schutzhund clubs are worth talking to, especially the German Shepherd Association. It is a complete eyeopener to see what the dogs can do and the happy focused way in which they go about it.

The last thing you want is a fearful or skittish dog as they are unpredictable and tend to skip escalation steps i.e. go directly to bite and do not pass growl.

If you want to go beyond the point outlined above then some serious thought is needed.

If you train a dog to bite and a situation arises where the dog does bite even if it was justified then the chances are that the dog will be destroyed (explain that to the kids) especially if it is from the restricted breed list, under the Irish legal system you will probably be sued by whoever was bitten and things will start to go badly from when the solicitor/judge asks if the dog was specifically trained to "attack a person".

As far as guarding behavior coming naturally goes, it is just not the guarding behavior that you want but also the control of the escalation / stand down when the guarded area is breached, in Schutzhund and example would be slow single barks, getting faster and sharper as the threat approached, escalating to full fledged growling and snarling with lots of teeth showing, slowing down as the threat recedes or stopping completely on command, the dog can stand down at any stage on command as to the dog it is the "barking game" and the dog has full confidence in its owner to be in command of the situation and protect the dog from harm.
This is a big contrast to the fear driven dog that constantly thinks that it is going to be harmed and has to defend itself. Unfortunately a lot of so called guard dogs are poorly socialised creatures who were either born nervous or had it beat into them, that is the kind of "training" that you want to avoid if you don't want a four legged grenade.

kimberworth

Liam Conway, San Martin Kennels, near Tullamore, Offaly. I've heard that he trains dogs for use in the Prison service.

junca

hmm interesting, i have also just started looking into this myself. And yes i agree with the poster here, although some dogs have a guard "instinct" they will probably not attack and defend and to be honest i d rather have a dog with guard instinct inbred properly trained than one which may turn out to be a lose cannon because it is "not" properly trained. As you need to be able to control this "instinct". I am becoming very dubious about all the Rottie owners for example who claim to have a doting angel but also claim it would defend them , when they actually have NO IDEA as to whether the dog would LET GO again when ASKED to. In other words when you have such a dog you DO NOT WANT THE DECISION MAKING LEFT TO THE DOGS DEVICES. It has to be the OWNER who makes the decision as to whether the dog PROTECTS not the DOG, because if it is left to the dog you in fact have just that A LOSE CANNON!!

would love to hear how you get on as i am researching this myself, i live in the sticks with no near neighbours and feel increasingly vulnerable.

junca

And funnily enough i found EXACTLY the same video on youtube as you, with the US malinois, i like their training . Having looked at the irish sites and their videos there is too much janking on collars going on, it does not seem to me they are really training the dogs to "let go" the same as in that US video.

andreac

junca wrote: »

hmm interesting, i have also just started looking into this myself. And yes i agree with the poster here, although some dogs have a guard "instinct" they will probably not attack and defend and to be honest i d rather have a dog with guard instinct inbred properly trained than one which may turn out to be a lose cannon because it is "not" properly trained. As you need to be able to control this "instinct". I am becoming very dubious about all the Rottie owners for example who claim to have a doting angel but also claim it would defend them , when they actually have NO IDEA as to whether the dog would LET GO again when ASKED to. In other words when you have such a dog you DO NOT WANT THE DECISION MAKING LEFT TO THE DOGS DEVICES. It has to be the OWNER who makes the decision as to whether the dog PROTECTS not the DOG, because if it is left to the dog you in fact have just that A LOSE CANNON!!

would love to hear how you get on as i am researching this myself, i live in the sticks with no near neighbours and feel increasingly vulnerable.

I have a rottie and if he decides to protect me, it will be for a very valid reason, ie being attacked by someone, breaking into my home etc, so trust me, i will not be too bothered about whether the dog is going to let go or not, because if he is doing this, then that person deserves what they get!!

I have full control over my dogs and they have never felt the need to do the above as thankfully i have not been in a situation that needed it. I never encourage my dogs to guard/protect/attack and so if the situation arises, then i know the dog is doing so because it is very very necessary.

junca

hmmm i don't know the dog could always mistake sth for an attack and then what do you do, as i said i think i would not want a dog from those breeds unless i had received specific training in how to handle them, and have the dog trained as well. For all intents and purposes it may attack another dog and again i think it should be trained to "let go" and understand that command in all situations

andreac

junca wrote: »

hmmm i don't know the dog could always mistake sth for an attack and then what do you do, as i said i think i would not want a dog from those breeds unless i had received specific training in how to handle them, and have the dog trained as well. For all intents and purposes it may attack another dog and again i think it should be trained to "let go" and understand that command in all situations

Think you are confusing this whole thing with the Schutzhund training to be honest. Dont really know what you are getting at with your post.

My dogs are pets, and show dogs also. They are natural guarders at home. They have fantastic temperaments with people, children and dogs.

They dont just go around trying to attack and guard things for no reason. I have my male nearly 6 years and no such situation has arisen where i needed him to attack and protect like you say. I have never trained anything of the sort into him.
I would hope that IF a situation arose where i needed him to protect me, then he would and as i said, i wouldnt be too bothered if he wants to let go or not.

I think you might be confusing dogs that are trained protection dogs and that are actually trained to do this.

andreac

junca wrote: »

hmmm i don't know the dog could always mistake sth for an attack and then what do you do, as i said i think i would not want a dog from those breeds unless i had received specific training in how to handle them, and have the dog trained as well. For all intents and purposes it may attack another dog and again i think it should be trained to "let go" and understand that command in all situations

That could be said for any dog breed though, not just certain breeds like rotties etc.

junca

i don't know Andrea as it is purposefully "inbred" into certain breeds over hundred years, just like the Labrador is a retrieving breed and will naturally offer this behaviour. And yes i do mean the guard dogs, i am also looking into getting one , as i said i live way out with no near neighbours and feel increasingly vulnerable.

junca

here's an excellent example of a trained dog releasing "instantly"

http://www.guarddogtraining.com.au/html/attack_dog_training.html

ISDW

junca wrote: »

i don't know Andrea as it is purposefully "inbred" into certain breeds over hundred years, just like the Labrador is a retrieving breed and will naturally offer this behaviour. And yes i do mean the guard dogs, i am also looking into getting one , as i said i live way out with no near neighbours and feel increasingly vulnerable.

I think maybe you need to go and look into the history of such breeds as Rottweiler and the German Shepherd (bit of a hint in the name of the last one) you may get a bit of a shock.

fatmammycat

Jeepers, the last thing I would like to train into my fellow is aggression. he's a GSD, like I said, already on alert to sounds, interested in things when out, but easy going and placid, the way I want him to be. I'd hate to feck around with him and instil any kind of 'attack' mode in what will be a 30+ kilos dog on the restricted breed list.

Dirk Gently

I wouldn't be as confident as other people who think their dogs will defend them as a last resort without training. My 2 are great watch dogs, will alert me to any noise or movement about the place. One night, my GSD from the sitting room noticed some movement in a bush 150ft down the end of the garden. It was dark and I couldn't see a thing but he was insistant that there was something there. Anyway, up I got, went out the back and with the gsd at my side walked to the end of the garden. Still couldn't see much but the dog was focused on something in the bush. A few seconds later the bush moved, it turned out to be a cat. I turned around and the dog was gone, he literally ran all the way back to the house when the bush moved and left me standing there on my todd.

I don't know much about "attack" training but I can't help thinking a dog who is likely to attack will be uncontrolable where as a dog who is trained to protect will only do so on command and release on command, there by actually being safer. Is it really training for aggression or is it not just training to control aggression. Maybe someone with more experience of it can comment further. I'd much prefer have a dog I can command to stop attacking than assume my dog will attack in the first place because either he wont or else he will and i wont be able to control or break off the attack if he does.

fatmammycat

Dirk Gently wrote: »

I wouldn't be as confident as other people who think their dogs will defend them as a last resort without training. My 2 are great watch dogs, will alert me to any noise or movement about the place. One night, my GSD from the sitting room noticed some movement in a bush 150ft down the end of the garden. It was dark and I couldn't see a thing but he was insistant that there was something there. Anyway, up I got, went out the back and with the gsd at my side walked to the end of the garden. Still couldn't see much but the dog was focused on something in the bush. A few seconds later the bush moved, it turned out to be a cat. I turned around and the dog was gone, he literally ran all the way back to the house when the bush moved and left me standing there on my todd.

I don't know much about "attack" training but I can't help thinking a dog who is likely to attack will be uncontrolable where as a dog who is trained to protect will only do so on command and release on command, there by actually being safer. Is it really training for aggression or is it not just training to control aggression. Maybe someone with more experience of it can comment further. I'd much prefer have a dog I can command to stop attacking than assume my dog will attack in the first place because either he wont or else he will and i wont be able to control or break off the attack if he does.

I agree with you, I'm not sure my fellow would protect me in that fashion either, but he would sure make a lot of noise before I met my demise.
The thing is though, if 'run for it' (seems wise in my opinion, he did let you know something was up) is your dog's nature, he's not suitable for attack training anyway. To actively train an attack/protection dog is a skill most of us would find difficult, trainers of protection dogs look for certain assertive personalities in dogs before they train them for this role. Making a fearful dog into an attack dog would be dangerous I imagine (not saying you would of course).

ppink

Dirk Gently wrote: »

I wouldn't be as confident as other people who think their dogs will defend them as a last resort without training. My 2 are great watch dogs, will alert me to any noise or movement about the place. One night, my GSD from the sitting room noticed some movement in a bush 150ft down the end of the garden. It was dark and I couldn't see a thing but he was insistant that there was something there. Anyway, up I got, went out the back and with the gsd at my side walked to the end of the garden. Still couldn't see much but the dog was focused on something in the bush. A few seconds later the bush moved, it turned out to be a cat. I turned around and the dog was gone, he literally ran all the way back to the house when the bush moved and left me standing there on my todd.

hahaha:D.....I was reading very tentatively as I thought you were going to tell about how the neighbours favourite cat was attacked by your dog!

BillyMitchel

There's a really good video on YouTube were trainers put a camera in a house and got a strangers to climb into a window. The dogs barked but let the intruder into the house. I don't think they were guardian breeds though. They go through all scenarios like getting attacked on the street and they all failed that too.

I cant for the life of me find it though. I'll have a bit more time later and then I'll try post it.

Its very rare that people would need a dog to do this work, most dogs would bark and make a fuss and if that dog is a German Shep/Rottie its probably enough to keep someone away. You'd want to be a right eejit to try break into someones house if there is a Rottie/GSD growling and showing teeth!

I've family/friends involved with Rotties and they have dogs that would let you in and take the family jewels while some of their other Rotties wouldn't let you 5 feet near the fence but it is their working lines that show real guardian ability.

Others friends involved with molosser type guardian breeds that would attack without warning to threats and wouldn't even let you look at the property. I came across a Cauassian Ovcharka before and only that there was an 8 foot fence I would of been picked up in little pieces for a week. Scary stuff seeing a full on PP/Guardian breed doing its job. Definitely not for the faint heart and probably not needed in your average home.

randy hickey

BillyMitchel wrote: »

..........................................................................Scary stuff seeing a full on PP/Guardian breed doing its job. Definitely not for the faint heart and probably not needed in your average home.

Billy, I wanna live where you live!!

OP, have you tried Brentwood Kennels out in The Ward near Ashbourne?
From first hand experience, they train and sell the type of protection dog I think you're looking for.
A proper protection dog won't come cheap though.

junca

I can't help thinking a dog who is likely to attack will be uncontrolable where as a dog who is trained to protect will only do so on command and release on command, there by actually being safer. Is it really training for aggression or is it not just training to control aggression. Maybe someone with more experience of it can comment further. I'd much prefer have a dog I can command to stop attacking than assume my dog will attack in the first place because either he wont or else he will and i wont be able to control or break off the attack if he does.

that was EXACTY what i was getting at.....

and here is the video of them seeing if a normal dog would protect the family home only the lab x seems to be doing its job half way

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_TINv4TKhk