'They're crying out for Irish teachers'

pm123

I can't tell you how many times I've heard this phrase.

I talk to some people who work in schools who say 'Oh, we had two Irish teaching positions that we couldn't fill this year' and yet all you hear on this board and everywhere else is 'There's a billion unemployed teachers' - where are all the Irish teachers? There are so many jobs unfilled, and yet there are Irish teachers saying they can't get jobs. This entire concept of teachers being unemployed is so contradictory!

dory

I don't know what the answer to this is. I do know that my school interviewed a lot of Irish teachers and over half were immediately out due to their standard of spoken Irish. When I was doing the PDE the tutor would keep saying to me how many of the class had to up their level of Irish to ever be employed. I would say that accounts for at least some of it.

conor1979

dory wrote: »

I don't know what the answer to this is. I do know that my school interviewed a lot of Irish teachers and over half were immediately out due to their standard of spoken Irish. When I was doing the PDE the tutor would keep saying to me how many of the class had to up their level of Irish to ever be employed. I would say that accounts for at least some of it.

Makes you wonder how they are good enough to qualify but not good enough to teach!

pm123

So If one was confident in their spoken Irish and their teaching skills, they should have no problem securing an Irish teaching position. I mean what kind of lunatics are turning up at job interviews

spurious

We have an Irish position for (I think) 14 hours still unfilled.

We got people with Irish in only one year of their degree going for the job.

pm123

That is unbelievable. With all the unemployed people, they can't find one suitable candidate to fill that position with super Irish and a great set of teaching skills. Jesus!

bdoo

A principal friend of mine had home ec and Irish hours going 22 hrs. Advertised interviewed the only candidate with both subjects and they asked could they teach home ec only, the part of the interview as Gaeilge was appalling by all account,s not hired.

At least with Irish you can catch them in the interview. Not like general subjects.

maynooth_rules

I personally am looking forward to the time when Irish is not compulsory to Leaving Cert. I believe it will help the language, and students wont be forced to do a subject that a decent percentage hate

dory

conor1979 wrote: »

Makes you wonder how they are good enough to qualify but not good enough to teach!

Because people by and large don't fail the PDE. I know in college people with terrible Irish were scraping by and still came out with a degree. They could get on to the PDE course if they were great at their other subject which would bring up their grade, or if like the person above, they go straight into a teaching college like you'd do for Home Ec and Irish.

I did my Dip with 20 others who are now all qualified to teach Irish. I could have a decent conversation with about 5 as Gaeilge.

seachto7

Pity for me my Gaeilge is no longer recognised by the Teaching Council, but my French is. I graduated YEARS back with French and Irish from UL......

pm123

why isn't your Irish recognized?

seachto7

No idea. My French is, but I still had to pay the teaching council for the privilege of it. The only subject I was good at in secondary school, and in third level, and it's like I never studied it..... I would like to find out what I would have to do to make it recognisable..........

If anyone could offer any advice, I would be very grateful.

gaeilgebeo

I know two NQTs of Irish who had a choice of jobs this September.
I agree that the reason some don't get positions is because of their poor standard of Irish which is proper order.

rainbowtrout

pm123 wrote: »

I can't tell you how many times I've heard this phrase.

I talk to some people who work in schools who say 'Oh, we had two Irish teaching positions that we couldn't fill this year' and yet all you hear on this board and everywhere else is 'There's a billion unemployed teachers' - where are all the Irish teachers? There are so many jobs unfilled, and yet there are Irish teachers saying they can't get jobs. This entire concept of teachers being unemployed is so contradictory!

No it's not. If 1000 students graduated from the dip this year and only 10 of them had Irish degrees and 990 had English and History, and there were 20 available jobs in the country all of which were Irish then there would still be a shortage of Irish teachers and over 990 unemployed English and History teachers. No point hiring someone without the correct qualification.

BostonB

Perhaps people with a good standard are able to get something better?

Powerhouse

conor1979 wrote: »

Makes you wonder how they are good enough to qualify but not good enough to teach!

No mystery here. When they are qualifying they are not in a competitive situation. They are not being measured against other candidates. They either reach a certain - by and large unchanging - standard or they don't. If they don't speak Irish as well as the next person in that environment it might mean they get a lesser mark, but they'll still qualify. If they are inferior to another candidate at interview where one person gets the job it is a much bigger problem.

When I did my Irish degree the oral was worth 20 per cent of the marks for the course (as far as I recall) so it meant that there was plenty of scope to compensate if your oral Irish was not wonderful. In the same way that could get an English degree while avoiding, say, Shakespeare or Chaucer. Or a History degree despite maybe not having been great at the nineteenth-century American History module. Or the way it probably is in any degree course where marks are awarded for a variety of activities/areas of study.

It is also a reality that many potential teachers of Irish (including Primary teachers) lack the interest/desire to go to the Gaeltacht at least once every few years to upskill their spoken Irish. Inevitably they lose even the standard that they had, and also inevitably that will show at interviews where Irish is one of the few subjects where people are called upon to show their own personal capacity at the subject (as opposed to just discussing teaching methods/syallbus etc.) during the interview.

It's not necessarily that they wouldn't "be good enough to teach" (though that might be an issue as you need to be significantly ahead of the level at which you are teaching a language to be really comfortable, it's more a case that they might struggle in a competitive interviewing environment if the spoken Irish is dicey.

It all comes back to the reality that Irish is a difficult subject and does not reward short-cuts, which is not least of the reasons that many people have 'issues' with it.

Alannah Gallagher

I know Irish teachers who can't speak Irish.

Seanchai

Alannah Gallagher wrote: »

I know Irish teachers who can't speak Irish.

I'd imagine most Irish teachers can't, alas, speak Irish. I'd be surprised if most teachers of Irish cannot speak Irish, however.

Godge

This may be controversial but I blame the Official Languages Act and official language status at EU level.

There are a number of jobs suitable for Irish language graduates at national and EU level that require translating of documents (that nobody reads in any language) from English/French to Irish. As we are the only country producing Irish language graduates, these jobs are being taken by people who would otherwise have gone into teaching. Result is a shortage of qualified Irish teachers.

Ironic that a matter designed to promote the Irish language should leave the next generation of children short of qualified people to teach them. However, the hope would be that this is only a short-term problem caused by the one-off jump in demand for Irish language graduates.

seavill

Alannah Gallagher wrote: »

I know Irish teachers who can't speak Irish.

Yea, good one

Powerhouse

Godge wrote: »

This may be controversial but I blame the Official Languages Act and official language status at EU level.

There are a number of jobs suitable for Irish language graduates at national and EU level that require translating of documents (that nobody reads in any language) from English/French to Irish. As we are the only country producing Irish language graduates, these jobs are being taken by people who would otherwise have gone into teaching. Result is a shortage of qualified Irish teachers.

Ironic that a matter designed to promote the Irish language should leave the next generation of children short of qualified people to teach them. However, the hope would be that this is only a short-term problem caused by the one-off jump in demand for Irish language graduates.

Not sure why you think this would be controversial to be honest.

I would seriously doubt if a relative handful of translators is really suppressing teacher numbers. Was there really such a huge jump in demand for Irish language graduates because of EU requirfements?

I think the reality is a little more prosaic. It is a fact that in the average university year you'll get probably 800 English or History graduates countrywide. You'll probably get maybe 100 Irish ones at best. You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to spot the likely knock-on effect on the teacher supply for the subjects.

RealJohn

maynooth_rules wrote: »

I personally am looking forward to the time when Irish is not compulsory to Leaving Cert. I believe it will help the language, and students wont be forced to do a subject that a decent percentage hate

They only hate it because it's poorly taught. english is compulsory too but nobody hates that (or very few by comparison to Gaeilge anyway).

What's the logic behind the idea that making it optional would help it anyway? Honours maths is optional and I can assure you (as a maths teacher) that students choose to avoid it all the time, not because they don't think it's valuable or important but because in the short term, it's more trouble than it's worth. Given the amount of work it would take to bring the average student's apalling standard of Irish up to the level where they might actually be able to use it for points if it wasn't compulsory, do you honestly see it as being anything other than a minority subject? Unless you specifically needed Irish, you wouldn't pick it (same with maths by the way only to a slightly lesser extent) and the language dies. Is that what you want?

As has been pointed out, they're "crying out for Irish teachers", not because there are very few out there but because there is a surprising number of incompetent ones out there along with a shameful number of incompetent primary teachers. Making Gaeilge optional is not going to improve the situation. Putting pressure on those who teach it to actually make sure students can speak and write the language might though.

I feel I should point out at this point that there are a great number of teachers with excellent Irish at both primary and secondary level who produce good students and who are no doubt thoroughly ashamed of those who don't do their jobs properly. I have great admiration for those who are ag snámh in aghaidh easa.

Fuinseog

dory wrote: »

I don't know what the answer to this is. I do know that my school interviewed a lot of Irish teachers and over half were immediately out due to their standard of spoken Irish. When I was doing the PDE the tutor would keep saying to me how many of the class had to up their level of Irish to ever be employed. I would say that accounts for at least some of it.

some schools do not care about the standard of spoken Irish. i have done some interviews where they did not ask me a question in Irish.

Fuinseog

Alannah Gallagher wrote: »

I know Irish teachers who can't speak Irish.

it depends on the level you are teaching. I have taught foundation level Irish, which is hardly challenging. I have been in a lot of staffrooms where Irish would only be spoken if a cigire turned up. ideally, Irish teachers should only converse with each other as Gaeilge.

gaeilgebeo

Fuinseog wrote: »

it depends on the level you are teaching. I have taught foundation level Irish, which is hardly challenging. I have been in a lot of staffrooms where Irish would only be spoken if a cigire turned up. ideally, Irish teachers should only converse with each other as Gaeilge.

I don't agree with this at all.
If I am in the staffroom, I am not going to exclude non Irish speaking members of staff by conversing with the Irish teachers in Irish.
I don't have anything to prove.
I am 100% fluent, as are my colleagues, one of which is a cigire for the oral exams!

Fuinseog

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

I don't agree with this at all.
If I am in the staffroom, I am not going to exclude non Irish speaking members of staff by conversing with the Irish teachers in Irish.
I don't have anything to prove.
I am 100% fluent, as are my colleagues, one of which is a cigire for the oral exams!

interesting point, what about having department meetings in English and talking one to one in English? I was told in some school no to be to enthusiastic about the Gaeilge.

RealJohn

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

Fuinseog wrote: »

it depends on the level you are teaching. I have taught foundation level Irish, which is hardly challenging. I have been in a lot of staffrooms where Irish would only be spoken if a cigire turned up. ideally, Irish teachers should only converse with each other as Gaeilge.

I don't agree with this at all.
If I am in the staffroom, I am not going to exclude non Irish speaking members of staff by conversing with the Irish teachers in Irish.
I don't have anything to prove.
I am 100% fluent, as are my colleagues, one of which is a cigire for the oral exams!

Hardly excluding them though. Unless they're foreign or had some sort of exemption, they all did Irish in school. I don't feel excluded when the German teachers in my school speak German together.

seavill

RealJohn wrote: »

Hardly excluding them though. Unless they're foreign or had some sort of exemption, they all did Irish in school. I don't feel excluded when the German teachers in my school speak German together.[/QUOTE

Ah I can see their point. I had it last year two teachers constantly taking Irish to each other in the staff room. No prob with that at all but a few times 3 of us sitting at the lunch table and in the middle of it they start speaking Irish to each other.
To be honest I found it kind of rude. I know they meant nothing by it but talk about being left out. I did Hl LC but hadn't a notion what was going on. I don't think that's a fair point

RealJohn

seavill wrote: »

RealJohn wrote: »

Hardly excluding them though. Unless they're foreign or had some sort of exemption, they all did Irish in school. I don't feel excluded when the German teachers in my school speak German together.

Ah I can see their point. I had it last year two teachers constantly taking Irish to each other in the staff room. No prob with that at all but a few times 3 of us sitting at the lunch table and in the middle of it they start speaking Irish to each other.
To be honest I found it kind of rude. I know they meant nothing by it but talk about being left out. I did Hl LC but hadn't a notion what was going on. I don't think that's a fair point

This is part of the problem though. You said that they were constantly speaking Irish to each other but because you were there they were doing something wrong. It would be rude if they had been speaking english and then switched to Irish to exclude you but if anything, I'd say that it's rude of you to expect them to change what they'd normally do anyway just because you haven't kept up your Irish.

Out of curiosity, did you ever suggest to them that you were having trouble understanding them and ask them to give you a hand?

bdoo

RealJohn wrote: »

seavill wrote: »

RealJohn wrote: »

Hardly excluding them though. Unless they're foreign or had some sort of exemption, they all did Irish in school. I don't feel excluded when the German teachers in my school speak German together.

Ah I can see their point. I had it last year two teachers constantly taking Irish to each other in the staff room. No prob with that at all but a few times 3 of us sitting at the lunch table and in the middle of it they start speaking Irish to each other.
To be honest I found it kind of rude. I know they meant nothing by it but talk about being left out. I did Hl LC but hadn't a notion what was going on. I don't think that's a fair point

This is part of the problem though. You said that they were constantly speaking Irish to each other but because you were there they were doing something wrong. It would be rude if they had been speaking english and then switched to Irish to exclude you but if anything, I'd say that it's rude of you to expect them to change what they'd normally do anyway just because you haven't kept up your Irish.

Out of curiosity, did you ever suggest to them that you were having trouble understanding them and ask them to give you a hand?

Ah now it's time to get real-john! Keep up your Irish my eye.

I think speaking Irish is v important for them, hell I even give it a go when u have to interrupt an Irish class but a 3 person conversation with two fluent Irish speakers is a bit much.

If you were working with two polish people in a shop and they were speaking to each other in polish all of the time you would feel left out.

I do think that the job of the Irish teacher is to promote Irish as well as teach it, speaking it is part of that but there is a limit

RealJohn

bdoo wrote: »

RealJohn wrote: »

seavill wrote: »

RealJohn wrote: »

Hardly excluding them though. Unless they're foreign or had some sort of exemption, they all did Irish in school. I don't feel excluded when the German teachers in my school speak German together.

Ah I can see their point. I had it last year two teachers constantly taking Irish to each other in the staff room. No prob with that at all but a few times 3 of us sitting at the lunch table and in the middle of it they start speaking Irish to each other.
To be honest I found it kind of rude. I know they meant nothing by it but talk about being left out. I did Hl LC but hadn't a notion what was going on. I don't think that's a fair point

This is part of the problem though. You said that they were constantly speaking Irish to each other but because you were there they were doing something wrong. It would be rude if they had been speaking english and then switched to Irish to exclude you but if anything, I'd say that it's rude of you to expect them to change what they'd normally do anyway just because you haven't kept up your Irish.

Out of curiosity, did you ever suggest to them that you were having trouble understanding them and ask them to give you a hand?

Ah now it's time to get real-john! Keep up your Irish my eye.

I think speaking Irish is v important for them, hell I even give it a go when u have to interrupt an Irish class but a 3 person conversation with two fluent Irish speakers is a bit much.

If you were working with two polish people in a shop and they were speaking to each other in polish all of the time you would feel left out.

I do think that the job of the Irish teacher is to promote Irish as well as teach it, speaking it is part of that but there is a limit

If the Polish people were working in a shop in Poland, I would probably think about improving my Polish.

Just because you find the idea of having a conversation with fluent Irish speakers intimidating doesn't mean that they're rude to speak their own language in their own country. You said yourself, part of their job is to promote Irish. Immediately switching to english just so that you're not uncomfortable is the opposite of that.

bdoo

RealJohn wrote: »

bdoo wrote: »

RealJohn wrote: »

seavill wrote: »

RealJohn wrote: »

Hardly excluding them though. Unless they're foreign or had some sort of exemption, they all did Irish in school. I don't feel excluded when the German teachers in my school speak German together.

Ah I can see their point. I had it last year two teachers constantly taking Irish to each other in the staff room. No prob with that at all but a few times 3 of us sitting at the lunch table and in the middle of it they start speaking Irish to each other.
To be honest I found it kind of rude. I know they meant nothing by it but talk about being left out. I did Hl LC but hadn't a notion what was going on. I don't think that's a fair point

This is part of the problem though. You said that they were constantly speaking Irish to each other but because you were there they were doing something wrong. It would be rude if they had been speaking english and then switched to Irish to exclude you but if anything, I'd say that it's rude of you to expect them to change what they'd normally do anyway just because you haven't kept up your Irish.

Out of curiosity, did you ever suggest to them that you were having trouble understanding them and ask them to give you a hand?

Ah now it's time to get real-john! Keep up your Irish my eye.

I think speaking Irish is v important for them, hell I even give it a go when u have to interrupt an Irish class but a 3 person conversation with two fluent Irish speakers is a bit much.

If you were working with two polish people in a shop and they were speaking to each other in polish all of the time you would feel left out.

I do think that the job of the Irish teacher is to promote Irish as well as teach it, speaking it is part of that but there is a limit

If the Polish people were working in a shop in Poland, I would probably think about improving my Polish.

Just because you find the idea of having a conversation with fluent Irish speakers intimidating doesn't mean that they're rude to speak their own language in their own country. You said yourself, part of their job is to promote Irish. Immediately switching to english just so that you're not uncomfortable is the opposite of that.

It is polite to include someone that's all I'm saying. And all Irish people have studied to lc.

RealJohn

bdoo wrote: »

It is polite to include someone that's all I'm saying. And all Irish people have studied to lc.

That was the point I was making. I was suggesting that you ask them to include you in their Irish conversation. It's not as though most (possibly any) of the other members of staff would be starting from scratch and you'd be surprised how quickly your Irish comes back if you actually make an effort.

By contrast, if those Irish teachers feel obliged to speak english when those with weaker Irish are around they might be losing one of their few oppertunities to speak Irish with people of a similar level to them. Most of us who actually speak Irish don't spend all our time around Irish speakers. I hardly ever get a chance to speak Irish other than at work or at home with my parents simply because very few of my non-work friends speak Irish. If those teachers only get to speak Irish with secondary school students who are not very likely to have a high level or Irish (or any worthwhile level of Irish in many cases), don't you think their own standards of Irish might start slipping? You naturally get worse at something if you don't practice it.

gaeilgebeo

RealJohn wrote: »

That was the point I was making. I was suggesting that you ask them to include you in their Irish conversation. It's not as though most (possibly any) of the other members of staff would be starting from scratch and you'd be surprised how quickly your Irish comes back if you actually make an effort.

By contrast, if those Irish teachers feel obliged to speak english when those with weaker Irish are around they might be losing one of their few oppertunities to speak Irish with people of a similar level to them. Most of us who actually speak Irish don't spend all our time around Irish speakers. I hardly ever get a chance to speak Irish other than at work or at home with my parents simply because very few of my non-work friends speak Irish. If those teachers only get to speak Irish with secondary school students who are not very likely to have a high level or Irish (or any worthwhile level of Irish in many cases), don't you think their own standards of Irish might start slipping? You naturally get worse at something if you don't practice it.

I would prefer to speak English in my English speaking staff room.
I don't ever feel that I am missing "opportunities".
I speak plenty of Irish throughout the day in class.

bdoo

Look, this is gone way off topic I know.

For me speaking Irish is something I'd love to be able to do well, and I do try whenever I can. There is a terrible element of snobbery attached to having an ability to speak the Irish language and many fluent (not native) speakers look down their noses at those who didn't have an education through Irish and they don't make any effort to support the language.

There are too many yummy mummys driving Fachtna and Fiachra around in the ceathar by ceathar to and from the gaelscoileanna making Gaeilge almost above the rest of us.

They obviously never heard ''Is fearr gaeilge briste ná bearla cliste'' (Broken Irish is better than clever English - before I get shot by a mod)

This is a real problem in my experience and unfortunately some of the Irish teachers in our schools are from this brigade.

gaeilgebeo

bdoo wrote: »

Look, this is gone way off topic I know.

For me speaking Irish is something I'd love to be able to do well, and I do try whenever I can. There is a terrible element of snobbery attached to having an ability to speak the Irish language and many fluent (not native) speakers look down their noses at those who didn't have an education through Irish and they don't make any effort to support the language.

There are too many yummy mummys driving Fachtna and Fiachra around in the ceathar by ceathar to and from the gaelscoileanna making Gaeilge almost above the rest of us.

They obviously never heard ''Is fearr gaeilge briste ná bearla cliste'' (Broken Irish is better than clever English - before I get shot by a mod)

This is a real problem in my experience and unfortunately some of the Irish teachers in our schools are from this brigade.

I completely agree.
Thankfully the Irish department in my school are the opposite to the above, but I have had bad experiences in other schools.

RealJohn

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

I would prefer to speak English in my English speaking staff room.
I don't ever feel that I am missing "opportunities".
I speak plenty of Irish throughout the day in class.

If it's what you prefer, that's fine. If you prefer to speak Irish, you should feel equally free to do so.
You might not feel like you're missing opportunities but you don't represent every teacher of Irish as far as I'm aware. As I pointed out, not everyone is in a position to speak Irish as often as you seem to be.
And unless your students have an exceptionally high standard of Irish, I find it unlikely (or worrying) that speaking Irish in class only is enough to keep your level of Irish high. I work in a Gaelcholáiste (not teaching Irish) and if I was only speaking Irish in class my level of Irish would slip to an embarassing standard within a year.

gaeilgebeo

RealJohn wrote: »

If it's what you prefer, that's fine. If you prefer to speak Irish, you should feel equally free to do so.
You might not feel like you're missing opportunities but you don't represent every teacher of Irish as far as I'm aware. As I pointed out, not everyone is in a position to speak Irish as often as you seem to be.
And unless your students have an exceptionally high standard of Irish, I find it unlikely (or worrying) that speaking Irish in class only is enough to keep your level of Irish high. I work in a Gaelcholáiste (not teaching Irish) and if I was only speaking Irish in class my level of Irish would slip to an embarassing standard within a year.

That would be unfortunate for you. Everyone is different and I'm sure you're only speaking for yourself.
It is a pity that you feel you must work in a Gaelcholáiste to keep your standard up.
Thankfully, my standard has not slipped in any way.
I'm sure if it had, I wouldn't be appointed as an oral examiner every year.
Most Irish teachers do not need to live and breathe Irish to maintain a good standard.
They have second subjects to teach, extra curricular activities, posts of responsibilities, English-speaking families to go home to every evening.
Each to their own.

RealJohn

bdoo wrote: »

Look, this is gone way off topic I know.

For me speaking Irish is something I'd love to be able to do well, and I do try whenever I can. There is a terrible element of snobbery attached to having an ability to speak the Irish language and many fluent (not native) speakers look down their noses at those who didn't have an education through Irish and they don't make any effort to support the language.

There are too many yummy mummys driving Fachtna and Fiachra around in the ceathar by ceathar to and from the gaelscoileanna making Gaeilge almost above the rest of us.

They obviously never heard ''Is fearr gaeilge briste ná bearla cliste'' (Broken Irish is better than clever English - before I get shot by a mod)

This is a real problem in my experience and unfortunately some of the Irish teachers in our schools are from this brigade.

I don't agree that this is way off topic (or indeed off topic at all) as I feel people being uncomfortable speaking Irish in the staff room is only going to reduce that standard of Irish teachers (people have already posted about qualified Irish teachers who didn't get hired because their spoken Irish wasn't up to scratch).

I'd also like to say that I've never come across an Irish teacher who wasn't happy to encourage and support those who wanted to improve their Irish though I have come across that attitude from people from the Gaeltacht (and I have no doubt that the attitude does exist elsewhere) but propogating the idea that it's a widespread attitude is only going to discourage people from even trying.

RealJohn

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

That would be unfortunate for you. Everyone is different and I'm sure you're only speaking for yourself.
It is a pity that you feel you must work in a Gaelcholáiste to keep your standard up.
Thankfully, my standard has not slipped in any way.
I'm sure if it had, I wouldn't be appointed as an oral examiner every year.
Most Irish teachers do not need to live and breathe Irish to maintain a good standard.
They have second subjects to teach, extra curricular activities, posts of responsibilities, English-speaking families to go home to every evening.
Each to their own.

You seem to be taking my comments of a criticism of you. As a teacher of Irish, you clearly have a very high standard of Irish to begin with (or I would certainly hope that you do) but that doesn't mean that your standard doesn't slip if you only speak Irish in class. That being said, I don't know you or what you (if anything) you do to keep your standard of Irish up so I can hardly judge you personally.

I'd also say that if Irish teachers feel uncomfortable speaking Irish in their staff room then not only are they losing opportunities to speak Irish but so are others who don't teach Irish who might like to improve their Irish in a nice, unpressured environment are also having their opportunities reduced.
Certainly you're under no obligation to speak Irish in the staff room but neither should you feel under obligation not to speak Irish, regardless of who else is there.

the_syco

maynooth_rules wrote: »

I personally am looking forward to the time when Irish is not compulsory to Leaving Cert.

When it's not compulsory, not many people will pick it, and thus less Irish teachers will be needed, and then schools won't have to look for Irish teachers to employ, imo.

seachto7 wrote: »

No idea. My French is, but I still had to pay the teaching council for the privilege of it. The only subject I was good at in secondary school, and in third level, and it's like I never studied it..... I would like to find out what I would have to do to make it recognisable..........

If anyone could offer any advice, I would be very grateful.

From http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/primary_and_post_primary_education/teachers_and_schools/teacher_qualifications_at_primary_and_post_primary_level.html

In order to gain full recognition as a primary school teacher, applicants must pass the written, aural and oral parts of the Scrúdú Cáilíochta sa Ghaeilge and provide certification that they have completed an approved three-week course in the Gaeltacht.

Not sure about post-primary, but would you have the above Scrúdú Cáilíochta and the cert from the 3 week course? I haven't the faintest notion if it would help you, but one of the post-primary Irish teachers here may know.

rainbowtrout

RealJohn wrote: »

This is part of the problem though. You said that they were constantly speaking Irish to each other but because you were there they were doing something wrong. It would be rude if they had been speaking english and then switched to Irish to exclude you but if anything, I'd say that it's rude of you to expect them to change what they'd normally do anyway just because you haven't kept up your Irish.

Out of curiosity, did you ever suggest to them that you were having trouble understanding them and ask them to give you a hand?

But in seavill's situation, there were 3 of them sitting at the table, two speaking in Irish and him not having a clue what they were saying. It does exclude people when there are only 3 people present to use a language that the third can't speak when all 3 have a language they are all fluent in.

When I go to my staff room for lunch my head is fried after 6 or 7 classes, the last thing I want to do is to try and make conversation in a language I am not fluent in when there is absolutely no need, particularly when I just want a break and a bit of banter with my friends and colleagues.

Irish is important, our national language, part of our heritage and culture etc, etc and if you look at other threads you will see I've defended its place on the curriculum before, but English is the first language of the vast majority of the country so, it's not a step too far to assume that it's the working language of any place of employment regardless of the status of Irish, and that it's the language people would prefer to speak, nothing to do with being forced to speak English by the English.

seachto7

the_syco wrote: »

When it's not compulsory, not many people will pick it, and thus less Irish teachers will be needed, and then schools won't have to look for Irish teachers to employ, imo.


From http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/primary_and_post_primary_education/teachers_and_schools/teacher_qualifications_at_primary_and_post_primary_level.html

Not sure about post-primary, but would you have the above Scrúdú Cáilíochta and the cert from the 3 week course? I haven't the faintest notion if it would help you, but one of the post-primary Irish teachers here may know.

Thanks for this info. I don't have the 3 weeks in the Gaeltacht, as I went on Erasmus, so I know I have to fulfill that. However, my grey area is that my Irish is not recognised from my undergrad. Does this mean I would have go through a full degree in Irish again. This is what I need to find out...

Dionysius2

What a sad reflection that after the vast amount of state expenditure devoted to trying to teach ourselves our native tongue, we still, as a nation, hobble along wrestling with the most fundamental aspects of the task ?

Are we any further on now than we were back at the start ?

How the hell did we make such a glorious cockup of it all ?

Fuinseog

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

I would prefer to speak English in my English speaking staff room.
I don't ever feel that I am missing "opportunities".
I speak plenty of Irish throughout the day in class.

there are teachers and indeed most pupils who believe Irish is a necessary evil that should be spoken in class, but not outside. I am sick of teaching Irish as an articifical language.

as I said if Irish teachers are reluctant to speak the language they are supposed to be teaching and promoting when out of earshot of anglophones, it is sad.

it does not stop there though. I have seen German and French teachers struggle to speak the languages they are supposed to be teaching.

Powerhouse

I think RealJohn is getting an unwarranted hard time on this issue. In my school I would always speak Irish with one teacher, and well over 50 per cent of the time with another. The other two seem to want to do it in the classroom only which is a bummer for the implications it has for department meetings.

I think the distinction between Irish conversations and those of others in the staffroom is being exaggerated. Obviously you don't ignore people but when discussing something between ourselves in the staff-room why not do so in Irish? We are Irish teachers after all.

I speak to a couple of teachers in Irish most of the time and in practice it's never an issue whether we are ignoring people or not. It just doesn't arise. It's not like we barge into a group of English speakers and expect them all to change to Irish which of course is what happens the other way around and everyone has to change so that rights of the English speaker has to be respected. Yet we're the language Nazis? You couldn't make it up!!

If I heard two French teachers speaking French in the staff-room (which I never do incidentally) I would be delighted to let them at it and would admire them for it. I'd regard it as a sign of expertise (I use the term very loosely by the way) and enthusiasm. I think we need to grow up a bit about the 'being left out' stuff. FFS there's 40 odd people on our staff. I'm sure I'd find someone to talk to in English if I had to.

The comment about there being 'too many' yummy mummies (a bit of ethnic cleansing anyone...just to get them down to acceptable numbers:rolleyes:) is indicative of a certain mindset which maybe is a little insecure about the whole thing, rather than moving the discussion along in any sense.

As for a 'snobby' element to speaking Irish...Jaysus bring it on. It has been dismissed by the chattering classes as the dirge of the peasant for long enough. Associating it with four by four drivers will (though many would hate to admit it) do it more good than harm I believe. So best of luck in the future to Fachtna and Fiachra.

People need to be more tolerant and Irish speakers need to be less concerned about hiding behind their hands for fear of offending people who are offended by the mere existence of the language.

bdoo

Powerhouse wrote: »

I think RealJohn is getting an unwarranted hard time on this issue. In my school I would always speak Irish with one teacher, and well over 50 per cent of the time with another. The other two seem to want to do it in the classroom only which is a bummer for the implications it has for department meetings.

I think the distinction between Irish conversations and those of others in the staffroom is being exaggerated. Obviously you don't ignore people but when discussing something between ourselves in the staff-room why not do so in Irish? We are Irish teachers after all.

I speak to a couple of teachers in Irish most of the time and in practice it's never an issue whether we are ignoring people or not. It just doesn't arise. It's not like we barge into a group of English speakers and expect them all to change to Irish which of course is what happens the other way around and everyone has to change so that rights of the English speaker has to be respected. Yet we're the language Nazis? You couldn't make it up!!

If I heard two French teachers speaking French in the staff-room (which I never do incidentally) I would be delighted to let them at it and would admire them for it. I'd regard it as a sign of expertise (I use the term very loosely by the way) and enthusiasm. I think we need to grow up a bit about the 'being left out' stuff. FFS there's 40 odd people on our staff. I'm sure I'd find someone to talk to in English if I had to.

The comment about there being 'too many' yummy mummies (a bit of ethnic cleansing anyone...just to get them down to acceptable numbers:rolleyes:) is indicative of a certain mindset which maybe is a little insecure about the whole thing, rather than moving the discussion along in any sense.

As for a 'snobby' element to speaking Irish...Jaysus bring it on. It has been dismissed by the chattering classes as the dirge of the peasant for long enough. Associating it with four by four drivers will (though many would hate to admit it) do it more good than harm I believe. So best of luck in the future to Fachtna and Fiachra.

People need to be more tolerant and Irish speakers need to be less concerned about hiding behind their hands for fear of offending people who are offended by the mere existence of the language.

I think you only got the highlights of my post powerhouse.

I am all for the use of Irish. Whether you agree or not there is an element of snobbery, maybe snobbery is the wrong word.

People often make mistakes in English with no consequence but I genuinely feel that when I 'try' to speak Ifish they are waiting for me to make a mistake.

Paranoid? No. Seachtain na Gaeilge, principal doing her best to promote the language on the intercom, two Irish teachers tittering and pointing out her mistakes and wondering aloud should they write her a script for tomorrow.

We have some very supportive Irish teachers too don't get me wrong but there is an attitude there like it or not.

seavill

Powerhouse wrote: »

I think we need to grow up a bit about the 'being left out' stuff. FFS there's 40 odd people on our staff. I'm sure I'd find someone to talk to in English if I had to.
People need to be more tolerant and Irish speakers need to be less concerned about hiding behind their hands for fear of offending people who are offended by the mere existence of the language.

The first bit I think if you read the original post from me Page 2, or below it will clarify what I was actually saying rather than jumping down my throat and telling me to "grow up" without reading the post properly. This is not what I was saying.

I think that last bit is a bit over the top no one is saying this

OK, I go away for a few hours and a storm has come up.

Just to clarify my comment which the last two pages have seem to come from. The problem Powerhouse was RealJohn didn't fully get what I was saying took it up slightly wrong and then people were arguing different points for the last while.

Firstly I did say I have no problem with speaking Irish with each other, the lads in my class in college used to do it the whole time, I have no problem with it whatsoever.

The point I made which RealJohn misread was that there was 3 of us sitting in the staff room, at the same table, no one else there, we were talking, little break in the conversation and the next thing the other two lads start speaking Irish to each other. This is what I found rude.

There was no one else there to talk to for me.

I still think that this is quite rude to do, they spoke for about 10 mins non stop Irish, no one else came in so eventually I just left. As I said I know they weren't for a second doing it on purpose or anything like this but a little inconsiderate taking into account everything.

RealJohn, if people are interested in improving their Irish then fine, but it shouldn't be pushed onto people (not saying they were doing this) but personally I don't have a particular interest in improving my Irish, nor my French, or business or others, I have my interests that I pursue but improving my Irish isn't one.

From my reading of the last few pages, people have kind of jumped on each other. No one has said they should never speak Irish to each other, they come in the door speaking Irish, I find it interesting (don't know why). I try to pick up on as many words as I can but I really don't have enough.

Its just in the context of what I described it was inappropriate in my opinion. I think the context of the situation was missed and this is where the difference of opinion has arisen here.

RealJohn

Dionysius2 wrote: »

What a sad reflection that after the vast amount of state expenditure devoted to trying to teach ourselves our native tongue, we still, as a nation, hobble along wrestling with the most fundamental aspects of the task ?

Are we any further on now than we were back at the start ?

How the hell did we make such a glorious cockup of it all ?

It's not being approached in a good way. I think primary teachers need to be incentivised to actually improve their Irish and encourage it. As has been mentioned already, many primary teachers (and to a lesser extent, secondary Irish teachers) seem to consider Irish an inconvenience that must be tolerated and humoured for want of a better way of putting it but have little interest in doing anything more than the minimum to teach. In my (admittedly limited) experience, a lot of this attitude in primary teachers comes from their own lack of confidence in the subject. The number of times I've met primary teachers who openly admitted that they weren't comfortable teaching Irish and wouldn't be comfortable having a conversation with me in Irish when they learned I taught in a Gaelcholáiste, even though I don't teach Irish. When I fight moved to Dublin, I was sharing a house with a 5th class teacher who didn't want to speak Irish with me because she wasn't comfortable with the language (and to teach 5th class, you should need a fairly high level of Irish, in theory at least).

Given that primary teachers are supposed to be able to teach through Irish anyway, I would like to see all primary schools gradually converted to Gaelscoileanna. It's a pretty extreme solution to the problem but I can't think of any reasonable objection to it. We could keep english speaking secondary schools but I think that if people were introduced and immersed in Irish before they were old enough to become cynical about it, we'd have a nation of competent Irish speakers within 20 to 30 years.

The problem with the above solution is that it would be strongly opposed by the INTO (because they know that most of their members aren't actually able to teach through Irish even though they're supposed to be able to) who would in turn get the ASTI and TUI on board by saying that once it happens in the primary schools it would then be introduced in the secondary schools too (even though there are far more reasons that it wouldn't be as workable in secondary schools, not least because secondary teachers aren't necessarily supposed to be able to teach through Irish) and also by the very many people who will automatically oppose any such thing because "sure Irish is a dead language and there's no point in wasting school time on it when we need to improve literacy and numeracy".

Powerhouse

seavill wrote: »

The first bit I think if you read the original post from me Page 2, or below it will clarify what I was actually saying rather than jumping down my throat and telling me to "grow up" without reading the post properly. This is not what I was saying.

I think that last bit is a bit over the top no one is saying this.

OK, I go away for a few hours and a storm has come up.

I think the "I go away for a few hours and a storm has come up" remark is I think exaggerating your own centrality to the issue. I was motivated to comment by recent replies to Real John's posts.

I was also speaking in general terms. All these attitudes to Irish are as hackneyed as Big Ben. So nothing new there at all.

I can assure you that if I tell you personally to "grow up" (which I didn't and wouldn't) I'll have the gallantry to do it in direct reply to you. But people who are hung up on the person at the next table speaking Irish because they might feel left out do need to grow up. It's not a bloody kindergarten. I don't expect the whole staffroom to stop when I walk in an include me in their conversation whatever the language.

seavill

For me personally, any subject is successful when the person doing it actually has an interest in it.

I think it should be made optional like all other subjects and let the people who are interested keep it on.

Part of the problem I remember from Irish class in school was that the people who really weren't into in dragged the whole class down.

I know speaking from my subjects that for Construction Studies for example, I have an excellent 5th year class this year with 20 in it, as they all chose it and all have an interest in it and in Woodwork, already we have been more succesful in 4 classes than I was with last years 5th years in about 4 weeks. Last years 5th years out of the 24, 9 were forced in there as it was seen as the best fit for them as they would not have been "academic" enough for the other subjects on the same option line. This had a huge impact on my class.

The only problem I see with introducing all Irish speaking primary schooling is that the negative attitude you refer to will possibly come from home a significant majority of parents will not have the Irish to understand what their kids are doing in school or be able to help them with their homework, or indeed encourage the language at home by continuing its use there. This for me would still lead to a negative impact on the kids.

As we all know within education in general, when we meet some parents who have had a very negative experience in school and still have that opinion of it, their kids generally have the same opinion. Learning is then not encouraged or helped at home and as a result this crop of children then struggle and get the same view on education.