Singles Gross prize - for or against?

madds

The GUI committee in my club are looking (by no means implementing) at the possibility of discontinuing having a gross prize in all singles competitions, and have asked me to see what the general consensus would be among golfers both high & low h/cappers on boards.

Those FOR the removal of the gross prize have argued as follows:

1) The current system just provides an extra prize for low hcappers
2) An average 10 guys have a realistic chance of winning the gross each week
3) Doing away with the gross will reduce costs (Weekly gross prize and end of year Gross Agg prize - €2,000)
5) Same people winning gross prizes week in week out

Those AGAINST removing the gross prize have counter-argued:

1) The gross prize is an incentive for low men to try their best
2) Very rare that low men win the outright singles comp of the day
3) The Annual Gross Aggregate Prize is a league table promoting competitiveness
4) The best score of the day should be acknowledged
5) Low men will play less at home and play away more if the Gross prize is removed
6) The majority of clubs offer a Gross prize
7) The CSS may be skewed if feck all low men play
8) Fewer low hcappers will join the club in future if the Gross is removed

I know which side of the fence I sit on but wanted to get a few replies here so I can take this back. Thanks.

L.O.F.T

madds wrote: »

(4) The best score of the day should be acknowledged.

For me madds it is all about this point. It is without doubt the most prestigious score on the sheet every week and should be respected for the quality it represents and for the skill it takes to achieve the best gross score and for that alone it should be acknowledged.

To acknowledge the point made about the annual cost of the weekly prize perhaps a prize could go for the best aggregate score for the stroke competitions held in any given month instead of a weekly one. It keeps all low men interested as they need to play all stroke comps in that month and you may also get the odd higherish handicap player contesting?

Russman

L.O.F.T wrote: »

madds wrote: »

(4) The best score of the day should be acknowledged.

For me madds it is all about this point. It is without doubt the most prestigious score on the sheet every week and should be respected for the quality it represents and for the skill it takes to achieve the best gross score and for that alone it should be acknowledged.

What he said ^^^^

big_drive

I actually find it a hard one to decide on. For me it kinda depends on the set up in the club. If its a club with only a couple of low h/cappers I can see the point that basically they might just be swapping the prize between them every weekend.
Then if it's an established club with a large category one make up and dozen or more guys at say a h/cap of around 2 or better I can see the importance of making it competitive for them each weekend with a prize to play for.

So I'm more or less undecided and think its probably an individual decision for each club based on the number of low handicappers in the club

stockdam

I can see it from both sides.

Why should a higher handicap player contribute in entry fees when they have no chance of winning one of the prizes.
Low handicap players should have as much chance as anyone else to win the net prizes - if not the the handicap system may be flawed.

Maybe ask people to contribute to the gross prize - only those who think they could win will pay into this pot. This would probably not pay for the whole of the prize but maybe a contribution would help.

heavyballs

L.O.F.T wrote: »

madds wrote: »

(4) The best score of the day should be acknowledged.

For me madds it is all about this point. It is without doubt the most prestigious score on the sheet every week and should be respected for the quality it represents and for the skill it takes to achieve the best gross score and for that alone it should be acknowledged.y not have a

To acknowledge the point made about the annual cost of the weekly prize perhaps a prize could go for the best aggregate score for the stroke competitions held in any given month instead of a weekly one. It keeps all low men interested as they need to play all stroke play comps in that month and you may also get the odd higher handicap player contesting?

I agree with the above,apart from the last bit,a lot of really low players would be away at scr cups etc so that would mean they would struggle to play in all the weekly comps.

madds

Thanks for taking the time to read my post folks, and thanks x2 to those who replied with their thoughts. Hopefully a few other posters on here may have the time to contribute by the end of the week.

Almaviva

madds wrote: »

2) Very rare that low men win the outright singles comp of the day

Incorrect if you mean a low handicapper has a lower chance of winning a handicap comp. In, fact he has a higher chance. Correct if you mean that comps are rarely won by low handicappers - but is only true because there are fewer low handicappers than high ones.

madds wrote: »

4) The best score of the day should be acknowledged

This single argument wins the debate for me.

Newsroom

The single most important part of this discussion is the possibility that the lowest score shot on the course during a competition is now up for deletion. To me this is an outrage! We play the game of golf to shoot this score. Unfortunately, the majority of golfers never get to reach this mark. Fair play to the individuals that have made it and continue to do so.
The crux of the matter for the Club is that it seems to be bandied about between a closed circuit of competitors. I, for one, believe that golfers who are winning the Gross in any Club have won a considerable amount of prizes on their way to Cat one status. Therefore they are not so interested in the value of the prize but the status of having shot the gross winning score.
As a result of this the gross prize is usually a lesser value prize and the Club finances are not so out of pocket providing it and the gross category remains. An average of €40 per week that has been indicated is not an excessive cost unless there are very few members paying into competitions. Most Clubs are charging around the €10 for competitions so 4 entries for the prize that denotes the best round of the day seems cheap enough.

ernieprice

I think there has to be some gross prizes on offer.
Maybe only have a gross prize in Monthly Medals, Captain's Prize, President's Prize and any other Major.
I also believe that if the best gross is also the best nett then there should be no gross prize issued,
(i.e) order of prizes as follow
1st Nett
2nd Nett
Best Gross or 3rd Nett
3rd Nett or 4th Nett (depending on above)
4th Nett or 5th Nett.
This way the best gross score on the day is assured of a prize.

Benicetomonty

Interesting to note the pro-gross prize opinion that seems to be emerging amongst boardsies of all abilities on this thread. Madds will know what side of the fence I'm on, biased as I am having been a beneficiary of the gross prize, but I'd like to think I'd remain in favour of it one way or another.

I do believe the prize offers incentive to a large percentage of players, even if they are not those who win it regularly or even at all. Speaking for myself who would not at all be a regular winner of the gross, I still find that winning it and not the overall competition to be a more realistic and maybe even satisfying goal standing on the first tee. This may be easy for me to say since a net victory will very often go hand in hand with one of the day's better gross scores but I honestly say that with regards to the competitions I have won in the past, I always recall my gross figures first and my points total second.

There are 3-4 guys who would be probably the most regular winners in our place and, whilst I may feel envy quite a lot of the time, it's usually accompanied by a healthy and overriding dollop of "fair enough". A gross prize is free from the scourge of cynicism that so often, unfairly or otherwise, accompanies the overall net win and I think that's a very positive reason for its inclusion because a low handicapped player can tee off knowing that if he/she plays their best, they will receive something for their efforts even if the bandits come out to play

That all said, I can of course understand objections to the gross prize but would hope that most people view it as an incentive rather than exclusivity. 90% of players who take up golf, imho, given enough time, instruction and effort have the capacity to play off single figures, and from that platform, anyone can win the gross. No statistics whatsoever to back that up, but it is my belief, and I think that having a prize to recognise what is, in most cases, the result of dogged tenacity rather than outrageous talent is to be encouraged.

fullstop

Ridiculous idea. The comp sec in our club decided to do away with the gross prize from ~October - April for the past 2 years off his own bat, even though there has always been a gross prize. Despite many complaints, he gives out 4 nett prizes instead of having a gross. This has led to most of the low players not playing in competitions during the winter, rightly so IMO. Also on seemingly random days this summer, the gross prize has disappeared off the list for no apparent reason and replaced with 4th.

If I took over as comp sec next year and decided there was to be 3 gross prizes and 1 nett, there's no way in hell I'd get away with it.

The gross prize is there for the best score of the day, as mentioned, and that's the idea of the game at the end of the day.

Rant over!

pinseeker

The point has been made about the lowest score on the day being acknowledged.From first time i started playing it was always the first thing i looked at in the results.Surely there has to be always a prize for the guy who has gone out and shot the best score of the day.

Yes there may be the same few week in week out but its those guys best chance of a reward for good days golf.

Now the point has been made that if handicaps correct the low guy should have same chance for net win but think important point has been missed.
In every club you have young lads and older who have just found the game that have high handicaps.They practise mad and play every chance and improve rapidly,hence each week in huge number of clubs you see the 42,43 44 points scenario.
It can take these guys a good while to find there true handicap so you see them shooting well below what there currently off.
A player off scratch,1 or 2 has pretty much hit the wall,going out off scratch and shooting 5-7 under is not realistic when handicap is correct.

Ask Tones who shot down does he see himself shooting same points he did now that he is closer to correct handicap.
I myself had crazy points early on and that was due to not being off handicap that reflected my ability,no chance now of ever repeating those points.

Gross prize all day long

PARlance

madds wrote: »

4) The best score of the day should be acknowledged

As someone that wont be anywhere near winning a gross prize, I still think the point above is key.

However, you also say that it's only about 10 guys that have a realistic chance of winning this every week.
There also seems to be a need to reduce the money spent per year on this prize.

With that in mind, I would suggest a monthly gross prize.
I'd suggest counting the best two rounds from an individual in any given month (most people should be able to get out 2 of the weeks thus giving all of the guys with a shout a fair chance)

Mr. Larson

fullstop wrote: »

Also on seemingly random days this summer, the gross prize has disappeared off the list for no apparent reason and replaced with 4th.

In my Club there is a pecking order of Sunday prizes, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, Gross, 5th, 6th. If the person who shot the best Gross places 3rd, 2nd, or 1st then there is no Gross Prize and it goes 1-6. Could that be what's going on there?

Personally I think you have to have a Gross Prize. It's unfortunate if it's the same one or two lads winning it all the time but if anyone is pissed off about that then they know what to do, get out there and practice

big_drive

Just on a side point, what standard of prizes does your club offer for weekly comps?

In ours it's usually a €50 voucher for 1st, €40 for 2nd, €30 for 3rd. Vouchers are for the shop in the club

soundsham

Lowest score should be recognised
In 4 th or 5th or last whatever place doesn't matter,

MP62

Is nothing sacred any more, best gross should always be recognized.

blue note

I'm actually in two minds over it. On the one hand, the low handicappers have an equal if not better chance of winning anyway (I've seen plenty of stats to back that up). And the best gross is usually a competition between about 5 people that can realistically win it each week.

However, As long as there's at least 4 prizes in a competition, I'd still like to see a best gross. It would just feel wrong not to have one.

Mister Sifter

The fact is, every person who enters has an opportunity to win the gross prize.

I'd also say that having a gross prize in your competitions is definitely a carrot for when it comes to getting low handicappers to join your club and to getting them to play in competitions.

michael1930

Why not offer nett prizes in categories, say 2 prizes per category with one overall winner. Adjust value of prizes to counteract extra number.

Seves Three Iron

The way things are going economically, more and more club comps, prizes etc are probably going to be moving towards the highest proportion of players in the club - 17 is the average handicap in club golf.

For example, the junior scratch cup was dropped in our club this year for the first time ever (Black Bush GC). Apparently, the time sheet wasn't busy enough last year. Yes, money is an issue but you've got to give the better players in the club something to aspire to also.

Also, on a Monday evening we have the 'Bunnies' tournament for over 18 handicaps. It's hugely competitive and the pot for a 2 is sometimes worth over 100 euros. Of course, there isn't the numbers for a single digit comp like this but, still, there just doesn't seem to be any catering for low handicpappers.

GreeBo

Poll added.
You have to recognise the best score on the day, end of.
If its the same people winning it...so what?

diarmuid05

This thread makes me physically sick.

Golf really is a race to the bottom nowadays, Between cheating and bandits and all the rest.
The gross score of the day is sacred. It's the BEST SCORE... FFS

I mean what would even be the point anymore for a low handicapper.
It's not the value of the prize but the effort has to be recognized. (Even 3 Pro- V's)
At this rate golfers are actually better of being crap....:mad:

Kace

I grew up in a club where Gross was always recognised - even got the very odd one myself. I'm now in a club that has never recognised it except for medals and major comps.

I would feel more strongly that it should be recognised in some way (with value between 2nd and 3rd - I think this is the way my old club did it).

This prize is in no way something that everyone can compete for - the same 10 guys will be the ones winning 90% of the time. If you have an amateur Rory McIlroy then he would probably win 30% of the annual prizes himself. I have had friends in this situation and it was nearly a monopoly at times.

I also see in my current club that the low handicap golfers will nearly always feature heavily when conditions are very tough, so this puts them in good positions to win throughout the year also.

So, in summary - yes continue to recognise the Gross as it will be really frowned upon if this is something that has existed and is now 'taken away'.

big_drive

In our club there is only a gross prize in the presidents prize , captains prize and monthly medal.

It was talked about last year and the argument was that it would be the same couple of players winning all the time. One guy is well ahead of the rest and people were sayings he'd probably win about 3 out of every 4 gross prizes. So there was never anymore mentioned about adding a gross prize to all other weekly comps

blue note

Mister Sifter wrote: »

The fact is, every person who enters has an opportunity to win the gross prize.

I'd also say that having a gross prize in your competitions is definitely a carrot for when it comes to getting low handicappers to join your club and to getting them to play in competitions.

The reality is that they technically have a mathamatical chance of winning it, but in reality they have zero chance of it. It's technically possible to win the lotto two weeks in a row, but in reality it's not.

And why do you specifically want to attract low handicappers to your club? What difference does it make to you?

GreeBo

big_drive wrote: »

In our club there is only a gross prize in the presidents prize , captains prize and monthly medal.

It was talked about last year and the argument was that it would be the same couple of players winning all the time. One guy is well ahead of the rest and people were sayings he'd probably win about 3 out of every 4 gross prizes. So there was never anymore mentioned about adding a gross prize to all other weekly comps

So the guys who is the best shoots the best gross score 75% of the time; what on earth is wrong with that!
Isn't that what Tiger Woods did for years?

big_drive

Lot of people didn't seem to like the idea of him being almost guaranteed a prize. Jealous maybe?

Seves Three Iron

diarmuid05 wrote: »

This thread makes me physically sick.

Completely agree. Would be 99% certain the people suggesting these ideas aren't low handicappers themselves.

My auld lad suggested years ago in the club that players with h'caps of 18 and over shouldn't be eligible to win the captain's prize. He got hammered for it - maybe rightly so - but the principle of it was trying to incentivise better golf.

Russman

Fully agree with the sentiment that the best score of the day should be recognised. After all thats what we're supposed to be playing for.

In my own club they've unfortunately removed gross prizes from more or less all comps bar the Captains and (possibly) the Presidents & one other maybe, which is a huge shame. Not even in Monthly Medals anymore !

The usual argument was trotted out and its along the lines of:
"if we have a gross for the Class 1 players then we should have a gross prize in every class" - I kid you not, thats actually the argument from reasonably coherent, presumably educated, individuals !!

Ironically we've so few really low handicappers now, the field of potential winners has never been bigger. Ahh well.

thoscon

Our club only introduced prizes for lowest gross this year for all the majors .As a 7 Hc I'm delighted because it gives me something to aim for , it's nice to win my category but this year I've won lowest gross twice and have to say I took great satisfaction in knowing out of 100 odd players I've shot the lowest score

Mister Sifter

blue note wrote: »

And why do you specifically want to attract low handicappers to your club? What difference does it make to you?

I think most clubs worth their salt would aspire to having a strong category one. Inter club is one reason, but it also helps to put a course on the map.

elberry

The best score on the day should always be aknowledged. In many respects there is too much emphasis on handicaps and stableford and not nearly enough emphasis on the gross stroke score of each player. When clubs push the gross stroke score more they will surely breed improved competition in their club to challenge for it. When I was golfing as a junior the best gross score of the day was more desirable than the best nett score, even if the nett prize was a little more valuable.

declan b

Does anyone have any idea if any clubs are giving golfer of the year points for winning best gross

declan b

The club I am in changed the system and are giving 15 pts for the winner,12 pts for second,10 pts next for best gross, 8pts for 3rd place.now it seems the golfers of the year are all low handicappers

Golfgraffix

I have seen a few of clubs, mine included who have removed the best gross from the weekly prizes but have kept them for the majors.

In their place they have put in a gross eclectic event, with a very good prize.

blue note

I didn't realise this was an old thread until I saw my own posts. My thoughts have changed slightly on it since. I do want to see it acknowledged, but spending €2,000 on it per year (that's probably €2,500 per year now) is ridiculous. You have to remember that there's probably 10 guys that that pot is split between. And it's not split evenly, so it wouldn't be unusual for one guy to win a fifth or a quarter of them. It doesn't feel right to have such a significant prize pot for such a small number of members.

It's kind of a wider point, but prizes are ridiculous in golf clubs. You might have 100 people in a comp and you'll have prizes for the top 3, 3 category prizes and a lowest gross. And these prizes could range in value from €20-€100. I wonder would a €30 voucher for the pro shop for first and a bottle of wine for second be more appropriate. And then just acknowledge the others as opposed to giving them prizes. The clubs could reduce comp fees by doing this and it would drastically reduce people's interest in manipulating their handicaps.

finglashoop

Prizes in my club dominated by div 4 players. I dont have the stats but fellas in div 1 can win their division at best.

Id never shoot the lowest gross myself but we should be rewarding the lowest score of the day.

I

finglashoop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/80517134#Comment_80517134

You're auld lad is a hero

These lads winning medals off 25+ is mental to me.

callaway92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121050724#Comment_121050724

I'd rather that.

In my home Club from 2022 to 2023, your general weekly comps have gone from €5 to €6 and your Monthly Medals have gone from €5 to €7. Why they increased the price I do not know..no reasoning has been given for the 20% and 40% entry fee increases, and yet prizes are still the same.

Would've rathered either same fee as 2022 for basic-ish prizes or at least top the prizes up due to the increased fee.

Infoseeker1975

I have reduced my index from 2.0 to +0.7 this year & I have won 2 vouchers, I usually play in both competitions every week. I simply cannot get into the prizes and the gross prize is the only one I have a realistic chance of winning.

I think there should be a complete change in prizes for competitions to acknowledge the handicaps of those playing; in most of our competitions there are 150+ players and it is usually a third in category 1, 2 and 3 - it is very evenly spread.

In that scenario, I think there should be a 1st prize nett/stableford and after that the prizes should be category based, e.g. 1st, 2nd and 3rd in each one if there are 10 prizes.

JIdontknow

I wouldn't begrudge anyone a gross prize. For some low handicappers it is the only prize they are competing for with the few exceptions, or cat. 1 prize etc.

the.red.baron

i think they should be given a medallion they have to wear in the next comp

IAmTitleist

I'm in a pretty unenviable position when it comes to my home club competitions.

Playing off 4 which is the peak of my ability so never going to win the gross prize and also have little to no chance of winning the nett competition because for me to shoot 40 points off 4 is just highly unlikely. Especially jarring when you see 36 handicappers shooting +28 gross and winning prizes, but that's another topic.

Having said all that i still think that the best gross score on any day should be rewarded. They have after all taken less shots than anyone and isn't that the whole point of the game?

EDIT: Only realising this is an old thread but hey ho thats my tuppence

fullstop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121050724#Comment_121050724

Why is €2k a ridiculous amount? It’ll be coming out of the competition entry fees. Saying only 10 lads have a chance to win it is not correct and there is nothing stopping mid handicap players lowering their handicaps and improving their game to compete for the gross. On the other had, you will go far to find a +2 who can score 45 points to win a nett.

The comp sec in the club I grew up playing in decided they were going to remove the gross one year because his perception was that only 3 or 4 of us ever won it. Wee went through the results with him for the year and it turned out there were 15 or 20 gross winners.

Tldr; the best player on the day should be rewarded.

fullstop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121050724#Comment_121050724

Why is €2k a ridiculous amount? It’ll be coming out of the competition entry fees. Saying only 10 lads have a chance to win it is not correct and there is nothing stopping mid handicap players lowering their handicaps and improving their game to compete for the gross. On the other had, you will go far to find a +2 who can score 45 points to win a nett.

The comp sec in the club I grew up playing in decided they were going to remove the gross one year because his perception was that only 3 or 4 of us ever won it. Wee went through the results with him for the year and it turned out there were 15 or 20 gross winners.

Tldr; the best player on the day should be rewarded.

blue note

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121063429#Comment_121063429

I don't like the ideas of prizes being substantial to amateurs. In a lot of clubs, you'll have one or two lads out on their own as the lowest handicaps in the club. There will certainly be a few lads around the country who could be winning 10 of these a year in their club. That could be €500 worth of prizes. Add to that the fact that they'll likely be winning a lot in the 2s, another couple hundred quid. And the best guys tend to be consistent, so they'll most likely feature in the prizes with a category win or a place in the overall once or twice in the year. I don't think any club golfer should be getting back that sort of money in the year from their club.

As I said, prizes overall should be dramatically less substantial. Winning shouldn't be about the prize.

fullstop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121068545#Comment_121068545

The better players invest a lot more in their game as well for the most part. More practice = more balls, more premium ball = more expensive…more expensive clubs etc., no reason that shouldn’t be rewarded. €500 over the course of a year for winning 10 gross prizes is hardly extortion.

FixdePitchmark

I think there definitely should be a gross prize - but would agree with the tone here - that some clubs are issuing too big a prize in all categories at this point.

blue note

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121069345#Comment_121069345

I don't agree. It's clearly a reward for playing great golf rather than lots of golf. And that's fine; I just don't agree with the quantum. The fact that they've played more and spent more is irrelevant. If you want to reward people for practicing more - have a loyalty scheme in the driving range. People who play a lot of rounds are already getting better value out of their membership so I don't see why you'd have any reason to reward that. If you want to reward people for spending a lot on balls and equipment.... well the reward should be the premium equipment and balls working and you shooting lower scores.

Acknowledgement of excellence is fine. Payment for it is not. No-one should go into a golfing year expecting to get a few hundred in prizes.