So P!ssed off...

ABajaninCork

Not really expecting any answers, but wanted to let off steam I suppose...

Had three interviews with a well-known company recently. All were for Jobbridge roles. Two of them were a fortnight ago and the third was last week.

Didn't hear anything back about the first two, so made a call this afternoon asking for feedback. Of course, I got a mail back saying thanks but no thanks. I expect the third will probably go the same way too. I've sent a reply asking for feedback but do not expect a reply. Had a similar situation recently where my interview was 'benchmarked' in order to find a more suitable candidate. Which of course the client did, and I lost out - Again!!

I suspect I've been turned down on age, but of course there's no way of proving it.

I've taken upskilling courses, and am studying to upgrade my PM qualifications further. I've had my CV critiqued and re-written professionally. I spend time further tailoring the CV and making the cover letters as professional as I can.

I'm in despair. I really don't know what else to do any more...

krd

ABajaninCork wrote: »

I've sent a reply asking for feedback but do not expect a reply.

Forget about ever getting honest feedback. If you've been rejected on the basis of some discriminatory grounds, you will never be told, because it could leave them vulnerable to being sued.

In fact the feedback can be terribly misleading.

Had a similar situation recently where my interview was 'benchmarked' in order to find a more suitable candidate. Which of course the client did, and I lost out - Again!!

Most of the time they're just making this stuff up. They haven't done anything like create bench marks.

It's unfortunate. There is a terrible recession and during recessions companies can behave very badly towards applicants.

I suspect I've been turned down on age, but of course there's no way of proving it.

Unless you know someone internally in the company then it's hard to find out. But it may not be age - it could be something really silly. Hiring managers and people in human resources can be incredibly unprofessional - or their idea of professional behaviour is absurd.

I would say human resource managers are the least professional people I have ever seen.

They can be mind boggling too. I know managers in a few companies, who the HR will not let them have control over hiring decisions. They literally refuse to allow them to hire people with good qualifications and experience, and hire 'look what the cat dragged' types instead.

I've taken upskilling courses, and am studying to upgrade my PM qualifications further. I've had my CV critiqued and re-written professionally. I spend time further tailoring the CV and making the cover letters as professional as I can.

All these things work. Try not to become absolutely obsessed with applications. Try to find some way of applying your skills and what you're learning. Do research.

I'm in despair. I really don't know what else to do any more...

Despair is pointless. Your luck will change at some point. And another point is, companies who are discriminatory - or who have very unprofessional management are a nightmare to work for. Every night is amateur night. After a period in some of these companies both your career and mental state can be far more damaged than if you had had nothing to do with them.

ABajaninCork

Aw KRD! Thanks very much for such a detailed reply. I'm kind of over it now, and have even managed to crack jokes with my long-suffering hubby...

All that you say is true. I'm never going to get honest feedback, so I've kind of moved on from that. And yes - I've found some companies (and well-known ones too!) behave in a manner that I would say is unprofessional. Since moving here, my eyes have certainly been opened.

Onwards and upwards I suppose!

Once again - thank you!

the_syco

What age bracket are ye in, and what sector are you trying to get into?

ABajaninCork

I'm over 40. Experienced PA (Director level) and OM. Can also do Financial reporting and analysis. Decided to have a career change and trained as a PM. But since getting my quals can't get a job as PM or even Project Co-ord, so have been applying for admin jobs.

Like I say. I think it's age-related. Employers seems to want a lot, but not prepared to pay for experience. It's not even as though I'm asking for silly money. They would rather someone fresh out of uni, who would have a degree (any will do, might not even be in the field applied for!), who will do the job for 20k...

Stheno

ABajaninCork wrote: »

I'm over 40. Experienced PA (Director level) and OM. Can also do Financial reporting and analysis. Decided to have a career change and trained as a PM. But since getting my quals can't get a job as PM or even Project Co-ord, so have been applying for admin jobs.

Like I say. I think it's age-related. Employers seems to want a lot, but not prepared to pay for experience. It's not even as though I'm asking for silly money. They would rather someone fresh out of uni, who would have a degree (any will do, might not even be in the field applied for!), who will do the job for 20k...

Have you any true project management or admin experience? It's very different from PA experience?

What sort of qualifications do you have?

ABajaninCork

Stheno wrote: »

Have you any true project management or admin experience? It's very different from PA experience?

What sort of qualifications do you have?

Yes. I'm well aware of that. Like I said, I am experienced as a PA and an OM. I've also been an administrator and Sen Admin during my career. No I do not have any PM experience, and I did say so in my earlier post. Since I gained PRINCE2, I have not been able to secure employment in the PM field. I realise employers want their PM's to 'hit the ground running' so have been looking for positions as Project Admin/Co-ord/Junior PM in order to work myself in.

krd

ABajaninCork wrote: »

I'm over 40. Experienced PA (Director level) and OM. Can also do Financial reporting and analysis. Decided to have a career change and trained as a PM. But since getting my quals can't get a job as PM or even Project Co-ord, so have been applying for admin jobs.

Like I say. I think it's age-related. Employers seems to want a lot, but not prepared to pay for experience. It's not even as though I'm asking for silly money. They would rather someone fresh out of uni, who would have a degree (any will do, might not even be in the field applied for!), who will do the job for 20k...

I don't think you're being passed over for kids straight out of uni. Age discrimination does happen - but it can work both ways. Some companies will not want anyone under thirty doing PM for them.

The real problem is there is a shortage of jobs, and most companies are simply not hiring, anyone.

Some companies will be hiring, but it's really tricky to find out who is. Recruitment agencies will not tell you - they can be awful, you might literally find out hours before the interview where you're going. There was a time you could call the receptionist of a company and they would tell you whether the company was hiring or not. This doesn't happen much nowdays - recruitment agencies can be a real nuisance. They cold call all day, driving receptionists crazy.

If you're looking for PM work, first you have to find out who is hiring - not even necessarily for PM work - just who is hiring. They may be looking for someone to do PM but they may not have advertised the position yet. In a lot of IT work they need PMs. So, you go to a jobs website, look at the IT jobs - listed by company (Forget the agencies - they're notorious for bogus ads). If you see a company is hiring one or more people. Then. It means they may be hiring a team.

Something I know works very well too.

If you have put a lot of time in on your CV, and it looks nice, print it out on nice paper - put it in full A4 envelopes. Print the company name and the contact persons name on a label. The CVs that are received in most places can really look terrible. A CV that looks nice on nice paper etc is impressive.

So, if you do your research, and you've found some companies who are hiring, but have not advertised a PM position, if you send them a nice looking CV there is a good chance you'll get a call for an interview.

Scatter shot CVs never really works, especially at times like this. But if you have found out that a medium to large sized company is hiring, it is worth sending your CV on spec.

ABajaninCork

Never thought about the IT angle, TBH. Thanks very much for the tip, I'll follow it up.

If I have to send my CV by post, I do keep a stock of Conqueror and cotton-based heavyweight CV paper so that the CV can be printed on good paper, and looks even better. It's expensive to buy here, but my cousin took pity on me and sent me some from home! I must buy some A4 Conqueror envelopes too - suddenly remembered I've run out!!

krd

ABajaninCork wrote: »

Never thought about the IT angle, TBH. Thanks very much for the tip, I'll follow it up.

IT projects of any size require project managers. And don't worry if you don't know much about IT - a job of the project manager is often to stop the engineers from speaking to the client. Because they speak Martian.

There's steady recruitment in IT and pharmaceuticals at the minute. Not really an amazing level but everything else is a disaster zone.

Read the business section of the newspapers. If you read a company is doing well, or has won some new business, then they will be hiring. If on the other hand there's bad news, it means the opposite.

Also there are companies who will not advertise openly when they're recruiting - especially now. Because they get phone calls from their clients asking to give a drop out of a daughter a job - and it can be very hard to say no.

If I have to send my CV by post, I do keep a stock of Conqueror and cotton-based heavyweight CV paper so that the CV can be printed on good paper, and looks even better. It's expensive to buy here, but my cousin took pity on me and sent me some from home! I must buy some A4 Conqueror envelopes too - suddenly remembered I've run out!!

Yes, it does look good on that paper. Practice on the cheap stuff. It's the care an attention to detail that makes these CVs stand out. Sometimes they'll just call you in to see who wrote the CV.

Etc

Firstly, you have had interviews which is great. Write down what you have learned from each of them and what you do and say differently.

Employers will want to know if you have any practical pm experience, and based on your previous role you will have lots. Some people can be very tunnel visioned as to what a project is, as the text book says it's a piece of work with a defined start and finish.

Use the STAR approach to answering questions, this shows a structured approach. What jumps out for most employers these days is you can follow a structure, you can work within a team, you can react to issues, you're thinking about risk and you can think of realistic contingencies.

I have interviewed quite a lot of people who claim to be project managers but don't follow the structure above. Regardless of age if they don't display a structured thought process they won't move to the next stage.

My team manages about 80 project per year across a range of areas. I also coach people in the area. If you want some more advice send me a pm and I'll help where I can.

FWIW, competence not age is my most important criteria when looking for people.