Sectarian Violence.

Bannasidhe

In light of the events at a Loyalist March in Belfast today:

Seven police officers have been injured in the North after trouble flared after a loyalist band defied a ruling not to march past a Catholic church.

The Young Conway Volunteers had been banned from parading past St Patrick’s Church on Donegall Street, Belfast, after being filmed playing an allegedly sectarian song at the spot during July 12th demonstrations.

The Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) said seven officers were injured after violence broke out in the area as the Shankill Road band marched past the church.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0825/breaking20.html

I was wondering how Christian posters here feel about such Sectarian violence?

As an Atheist I find it perplexing in some ways, but given my knowledge of history understandable that such violence occurs among those who agree the principles as it were, but dispute the details. I know this is not unique to Christianity - Islam has the Sunni Vs Shi'a situation which is also known to erupt into violence - but's that isn't happening on 'our' island so doesn't really impact on us.

Now, I know that Loyalist does not automatically equal Protestant but the core of groups such as the Young Conway Volunteers comes from the Presbyterian community and they target specifically Roman Catholic areas/churches so this does have an undeniable sectarian element.

I know there are Christians of many different denomination here - so I would really like to hear your perspectives on this happening in Ireland in 2012.

Benny_Cake

Desperately sad. It's really more about tribalism than sectarianism at this stage, I very much doubt that the idiots who engage in this give too much thought to the theological differences between Catholics and Protestants. I just wish that the marchers could respect their neighbours a little more, and that the counter-protestors wouldn't respond with violence...it does seem to be happening a lot less in recent years though.

newmug

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Desperately sad. It's really more about tribalism than sectarianism at this stage, I very much doubt that the idiots who engage in this give too much thought to the theological differences between Catholics and Protestants.

Its equally as perplexing to us real Christians Bannasidhe. Benny summed it up in a nutshell there.

Onesimus

Their actions have nothing to do with Christianity. So it's odd that it should be here. Using the term roman catholics and protestants is not good at all because they just use those titles to attack one another doing it in the name of religion when really their skirmish is to do with ''politics''. Using the term ''British loyalists'' attacking ''Irish republicans'' sounds better.

Monty Burnz

I agree that this has as much to do with Christianity as Stalin's antics had to do with atheism. But oddly, some posters on this forum have been known to assert that a connection exists in the latter.

newmug

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I agree that this has as much to do with Christianity as Stalin's antics had to do with atheism. But oddly, some posters on this forum have been known to assert that a connection exists in the latter.

Well Christianity says love one another. Athiesm doesnt. It doesnt have a theism to say anything. So technically........

Atlantis50

I heard the lads who attacked the police officers were coming from mass hence validating this nonsense thread :rolleyes:

Monty Burnz

newmug wrote: »

Well Christianity says love one another. Athiesm doesnt. It doesnt have a theism to say anything. So technically........

...it has nothing to do with it.

Bannasidhe

Would people have preferred I put this in the Atheism thread? I don't see the point as I already have a fairly good idea of the response. It also has absolutely nothing to do with Atheism.

This sectarianism occurs within the wider Christian community so I asked members of that community how they feel about it. I recognise that the main issue is political, also that neither side who takes part in physical violence is interested in theological debate. but, the fact remains there is a large Presbyterian Vs Catholic element.

I am not looking to attack anyone just looking for honest responses.

Benny_Cake

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Would people have preferred I put this in the Atheism thread? I don't see the point as I already have a fairly good idea of the response. It also has absolutely nothing to do with Atheism.

This sectarianism occurs within the wider Christian community so I asked members of that community how they feel about it. I recognise that the main issue is political, also that neither side who takes part in physical violence is interested in theological debate. but, the fact remains there is a large Presbyterian Vs Catholic element.

I am not looking to attack anyone just looking for honest responses.

No, I think this is the correct place for it. Like it or not, when there are incidents of this nature in NI it is usually framed as a Catholic vs Protestant dispute. Of course everyone here knows it is a lot more complicated than that, but that's how the wider world sees it. I don't think there is any need to drag Joseph Stalin and the League of the Militant Godless into it either...

A good question would be what are the churches doing to try to put an end to this sort of thing. Maybe some of our posters from the North would be better at answering this. I do remember the local vicar where I grew up being absolutely mortified that the Church of Ireland was being associated with the Drumcree standoff due to it allowing the Portadown Orangemen to hold their service in the parish church there, so no doubt the response varies from place to place.

Monty Burnz

Benny_Cake wrote: »

I don't think there is any need to drag Joseph Stalin and the League of the Militant Godless into it either...

I think there is, because while I and others will happily acknowledge that this has nothing to do with doctrinal differences between different Christian sects (which I'm certain the rioters have likely never even heard of), people here are still happy to link atheism to amorality. You can't have it both ways.

Benny_Cake

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I think there is, because while I and others will happily acknowledge that this has nothing to do with doctrinal differences between different Christian sects (which I'm certain the rioters have likely never even heard of), people here are still happy to link atheism to amorality. You can't have it both ways.

I'm not trying to have it both ways, in fact I think it's pretty silly when people cite the crimes committed by regimes which claimed to be atheist as a means of questioning the morality of ordinary atheists. If anyone want's to have that discussion, they should really be doing so on the relevant megathread. Bannasidhe's question was on the Christian response to sectarian / communal violence in Northern Ireland, let's stick to that.

Monty Burnz

Benny_Cake wrote: »

I'm not trying to have it both ways, in fact I think it's pretty silly when people cite the crimes committed by regimes which claimed to be atheist as a means of questioning the morality of ordinary atheists. If anyone want's to have that discussion, they should really be doing so on the relevant megathread. Bannasidhe's question was on the Christian response to sectarian / communal violence in Northern Ireland, let's stick to that.

That's fair enough - I'm just joining the dots for the hard of thinking. Please carry on.

PDN

Tribalism - pure and simple.

Bannasidhe

PDN wrote: »

Tribalism - pure and simple.

Also true - but they all identify as part of the wider Christian community.

I can see there is a marked reluctance to discuss this but the problem exists. One can be sure that some networks across the globe will carry this story and each one will focus on the Protestant Vs Catholic angle whether we in Ireland want them to or not. We can all agree that this is a ridiculous over simplification of a complex issue.
But that is the message that is being broadcast across the world as to the state of Christianity in Ireland. Were I a Christian I would find that troubling...

PDN

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Also true - but they all identify as part of the wider Christian community.

I can see there is a marked reluctance to discuss this but the problem exists. One can be sure that some networks across the globe will carry this story and each one will focus on the Protestant Vs Catholic angle whether we in Ireland want them to or not. We can all agree that this is a ridiculous over simplification of a complex issue.
But that is the message that is being broadcast across the world as to the state of Christianity in Ireland. Were I a Christian I would find that troubling...

I don't find it disturbing. People lying about Christianity is hardly a new thing.

lmaopml

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Also true - but they all identify as part of the wider Christian community.

I can see there is a marked reluctance to discuss this but the problem exists. One can be sure that some networks across the globe will carry this story and each one will focus on the Protestant Vs Catholic angle whether we in Ireland want them to or not. We can all agree that this is a ridiculous over simplification of a complex issue.
But that is the message that is being broadcast across the world as to the state of Christianity in Ireland. Were I a Christian I would find that troubling...

Well, it's pretty cool that you are aware that what is being 'broadcast' is not the necessary case -

Look, we live in these times and we learn and love in these times and do our best to cross frontiers - I truly believe that my brothers and sisters up North who know and love Christ are not as heartless as all that we hear, neither are those down South heartless - we've begun to join our voices together - it's got nothing to do with Christ and we know it, we'll build those bridges, we'll cross the miles, we're family - that's what we we do - he will be our victory for those who know him, and he will have the courage of conviction for peace with us and through us, for the sake of the young too.

martinedwards

its nothing to do with Christianity.

if 200 skinheads in Liverpool shirts attacked 50 black guys in Man Utd shirts would it be a race attack or football violence.......

same difference with the sectarianism here.

you are labelled a Prod or Catholic regardless of whatever church you attend or not.

bonniebede

martinedwards wrote: »

its nothing to do with Christianity.

if 200 skinheads in Liverpool shirts attacked 50 black guys in Man Utd shirts would it be a race attack or football violence.......

same difference with the sectarianism here.

you are labelled a Prod or Catholic regardless of whatever church you attend or not.

Quite.
Its labelling thats the problem, like how we have airbrushed Protestant Nationalists and republicans and Catholic Loyalists and monarchistsout of our history, even though both hasve existed.

JimiTime

PDN wrote: »

I don't find it disturbing. People lying about Christianity is hardly a new thing.

Thats it. You'll also find that its usually someone who has no interest in the truth of the matter, but merely wants to attack Christianity based on their own hatred or preconceptions will actually view these things as 'Christian'. Like when people use Fred Phelps as a stick to bash Christianity. Dishonesty is at the heart of it.

Bannasidhe

JimiTime wrote: »

Thats it. You'll also find that its usually someone who has no interest in the truth of the matter, but merely wants to attack Christianity based on their own hatred or preconceptions will actually view these things as 'Christian'. Like when people use Fred Phelps as a stick to bash Christianity. Dishonesty is at the heart of it.

Jimi I protest that due to disagreements in a different thread you have taken this opportunity to attack my intentions based only on your own perceptions.

I have not said one negative thing here about either side, I am fully aware of the historical, political and socio-economic forces which shaped it and agree that religion is merely used as a convenient rallying cry. I have already made this clear so if all you have to contribute is a thinly veiled attack on me as the OP could you please desist as it adds nothing to what is a serious topic.

What I have gathered from this thread is that many here are unwilling to see or admit that there is still an issue with sectarian violence on this island.

But it is not so easy to dismiss as the actions of hooligans when taken in the context of the Orange Lodges historically Anti-Catholic stance, Ian Paisley's (do some here feel he is not a 'Christian'?) anti- Catholic rhetoric which prompted the setting up of a dedicated website aimed at correcting his 'misinterpretation' of Roman Catholic doctrine ( http://www.ianpaisley.net/) and the fact that the authorities in NI are now prosecuting people who post sectarian messages on-line (http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Two-Northern-Irish-men-fined-for-posting-anti-Catholic-comments-on-Facebook-147429095.html).

It is a pity that some want to pretend this is not happening rather than discuss ways that this sort of sectarian violence, mistrust and sometimes downright hatred can be dealt with for the benefit of all the people of Ireland.

JimiTime

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Jimi I protest that due to disagreements in a different thread you have taken this opportunity to attack my intentions based only on your own perceptions.

Didn't even take it in that you were the OP. I didn't direct my post at anyone in particular believe it or not, though you do seem to be suffering from a bit of paranoia.

I have not said one negative thing here about either side, I am fully aware of the historical, political and socio-economic forces which shaped it and agree that religion is merely used as a convenient rallying cry. I have already made this clear so if all you have to contribute is a thinly veiled attack on me as the OP could you please desist as it adds nothing to what is a serious topic.

Stop being so paranoid. You really don't matter enough for me to follow you about for fecks sake:rolleyes:

What I have gathered from this thread is that many here are unwilling to see or admit that there is still an issue with sectarian violence on this island.
But it is not so easy to dismiss as the actions of hooligans when taken in the context of the Orange Lodges historically Anti-Catholic stance, Ian Paisley's (do some here feel he is not a 'Christian'?) anti- Catholic rhetoric which prompted the setting up of a dedicated website aimed at correcting his 'misinterpretation' of Roman Catholic doctrine ( http://www.ianpaisley.net/) and the fact that the authorities in NI are now prosecuting people who post sectarian messages on-line (http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Two-Northern-Irish-men-fined-for-posting-anti-Catholic-comments-on-Facebook-147429095.html).

It is a pity that some want to pretend this is not happening rather than discuss ways that this sort of sectarian violence, mistrust and sometimes downright hatred can be dealt with for the benefit of all the people of Ireland.

No-one denies the violence, people just realise that it has as much to do with Jesus Christ as Fred Phelps does.
'Not everyone who says, 'Lord, Lord' will be saved, but those that do the will of my Father..........'
'By their fruits you will know them [Jesus' followers]'

Now you might want to realise that this is nothing personal, and I've absolutely NO interest in following you about, so I'd advise you to stop getting personal about it.

Bannasidhe

JimiTime wrote: »

Didn't even take it in that you were the OP. I didn't direct my post at anyone in particular believe it or not, though you do seem to be suffering from a bit of paranoia.



<snip> You really don't matter enough for me to follow you about for fecks sake:rolleyes:



No-one denies the violence, people just realise that it has as much to do with Jesus Christ as Fred Phelps does.
'Not everyone who says, 'Lord, Lord' will be saved, but those that do the will of my Father..........'
'By their fruits you will know them [Jesus' followers]'

Now you might want to realise that this is nothing personal, and I've absolutely NO interest in following you about, so I'd advise you to stop getting personal about it.

So you think this has nothing to do with Christianity and that people realise that?

What then do we make of people like Rev. Ian Paisley who wrote

In his day Ratzinger was a thoroughly liberal RC theologian at Tuebingen. As he matured he swung to the opposite extreme and became an equally conservative custodian of the ‘faith’, if we can call it that, and rose to be, literally, Inquisitor General. What really brought him into the limelight was his insulting dismissal of Protestant churches, and the Church of England in particular, as mere ‘ecclesial bodies’ while at the same time opening the door to the possibility of salvation through Islam, which creed at the moment is much more to Rome’s liking than Protestant heretics...
Ratzinger need not worry. His system will not fall apart of itself. The Bible assures us that it will survive till the Lord’s return. “And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.” II Thess 2:8. Amen and Amen.

http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=ratz

Paisley has also claimed 'THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN EUROPE TODAY AND EUROPE IN REFORMATION TIMES.' - his capitals not mine. Wars of Religion raged across Europe in the 16th and 17th centuries and Paisley clearly sees events in Ireland as a continuation of that time.

Much of his website is devoted to debunking Roman Catholic doctrine: http://www.ianpaisley.org/answers.asp

Paisley may be just one man, but he was a man at the very heart of politics in NI for decades and an influential and powerful figure. It is impossible to dismiss him as people like to Fred Phelps. Paisley is no renegade, he is part of a strongly reformist tradition that stands in opposition to Rome and has done since the days of John Knox.

This tradition of vocal opposition to all that Rome symbolises has informed and fuelled sectarianism in Ireland and it cannot be just ignored.

JimiTime

Bannasidhe wrote: »

So you think this has nothing to do with Christianity and that people realise that?

What then do we make of people like Rev. Ian Paisley who wrote
http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=ratz

Paisley has also claimed 'THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN EUROPE TODAY AND EUROPE IN REFORMATION TIMES.' - his capitals not mine. Wars of Religion raged across Europe in the 16th and 17th centuries and Paisley clearly sees events in Ireland as a continuation of that time.

Much of his website is devoted to debunking Roman Catholic doctrine: http://www.ianpaisley.org/answers.asp

Paisley may be just one man, but he was a man at the very heart of politics in NI for decades and an influential and powerful figure. It is impossible to dismiss him as people like to Fred Phelps. Paisley is no renegade, he is part of a strongly reformist tradition that stands in opposition to Rome and has done since the days of John Knox.

This tradition of vocal opposition to all that Rome symbolises has informed and fuelled sectarianism in Ireland and it cannot be just ignored.

Firstly, no-one says ignore it. Paisley and his DUP cohorts did not gain power because of their "Christianity" and views on Roman Catholocism. They gained it because of their staunch 'No surrender' unionism in the face of what the unionists saw as the increased threat of republicanism and the perception that the UUP were going soft.

Secondly, no-one denies the atrocities carried out in the name of Christianity, and how people have lied and shoehorned (and still do) Christianity to suit their agenda's. Such dishonesty is certainly not exclusive to Christianity, or even religion. It seems to be part of the human condition throughout history. I spend a bit of time up North, my mother in law is from there, and I've quite a few friends and acquaintances there. Some of the views of some of them are quite disturbing, but they'd have absolutely no idea about God, the gospel etc . they'd only ever be in a church for weddings and funerals, and likely have views AGAINST the RC church. However, they still call themselves Catholic. As others have alluded to, its tribal. These people I'm talking about also don't fall into the category of thug. They are middle class, great fun, kind folk and you'd have no idea the ingrained bitterness that swells in them in terms of this topic.

Religion may have played a part in the beginning of all this, but it has long since been sidelined. The terms Catholic and Protestant are merely statements of which tribe you're a member of.

newmug

Bannasidhe wrote: »

What I have gathered from this thread is that many here are unwilling to see or admit that there is still an issue with sectarian violence on this island...... It is a pity that some want to pretend this is not happening rather than discuss ways that this sort of sectarian violence, mistrust and sometimes downright hatred can be dealt with for the benefit of all the people of Ireland.

Nobody is unwilling to see or "admit":rolleyes: that sectarian violence still exists in Ireland. Especially on this thread. It wasn't denied once.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

So you think this has nothing to do with Christianity and that people realise that?

Er, yes. Well most rational people do anyway.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

What then do we make of people like Rev. Ian Paisley who wrote
http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=ratz

Paisley has also claimed 'THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN EUROPE TODAY AND EUROPE IN REFORMATION TIMES.' - his capitals not mine. Wars of Religion raged across Europe in the 16th and 17th centuries and Paisley clearly sees events in Ireland as a continuation of that time.

Much of his website is devoted to debunking Roman Catholic doctrine:

I make of him what most of the rest of the world's population does - a bigoted, hypocritical, non-Christian, deluded dinosaur. He is the unionist Fred Phelps. He was handy to have as a political mouthpiece from the british govt. point of view, but now that the troubles have died down a bit, I'd say they're just as happy to let him fade off into oblivion.

Bannasidhe

JimiTime wrote: »

Firstly, no-one says ignore it. Paisley and his DUP cohorts did not gain power because of their "Christianity" and views on Roman Catholocism. They gained it because of their staunch 'No surrender' unionism in the face of what the unionists saw as the increased threat of republicanism and the perception that the UUP were going soft.

Secondly, no-one denies the atrocities carried out in the name of Christianity, and how people have lied and shoehorned (and still do) Christianity to suit their agenda's. Such dishonesty is certainly not exclusive to Christianity, or even religion. It seems to be part of the human condition throughout history. I spend a bit of time up North, my mother in law is from there, and I've quite a few friends and acquaintances there. Some of the views of some of them are quite disturbing, but they'd have absolutely no idea about God, the gospel etc . they'd only ever be in a church for weddings and funerals, and likely have views AGAINST the RC church. However, they still call themselves Catholic. As others have alluded to, its tribal. These people I'm talking about also don't fall into the category of thug. They are middle class, great fun, kind folk and you'd have no idea the ingrained bitterness that swells in them in terms of this topic.

Religion may have played a part in the beginning of all this, but it has long since been sidelined. The terms Catholic and Protestant are merely statements of which tribe you're a member of.

I said in my opening post that this issue of sectarianism is not confined to Christianity - it is also a grave issue within, for example, Islam. But as Sunni Vs Shi'a violence hasn't broken out on the streets of our island it is not a matter that need concern this discussion.

I am not sure which community you are talking about re: knowing nothing about the gospels tbh - it appears to be the Catholic one. In my experience few Catholics are conversant with the Gospels and prefer to follow the interpretation set down by Rome as official Catholic doctrine.

I would dispute the notion that Rev. Paisley is not fully conversant with the Gospels.

I do have an idea of the bitterness actually, my sister lived for a time on the Donegal Road and had to change her name from an obviously Irish one to it's Anglicised version for safety.

I have friends and colleagues from all sides of the religious and political divides and have visited the North on several occasions - I even played rugby at international/provincial/national level with/against those same Middle Class Protestants. And yes, after a few pints apres match some things can be said by both sides that are astoundingly awful.

I have not denied there is a tribal element. But there is also a sectarian elements - in particular Free Presbyterian Vs Roman Catholic - that fuels the divisions.

What do Christian posters of the various denominations believe can be done to remove this sectarian element and expose the tribalism that lies beneath it?

Are people content to ignore this aspect?

Do they believe it does not exist or influence divisions?

How do people feel about the fact that this image (albeit an incorrect one) of Irish Christianity as still riven by sectarian hatred is being broadcast to the world?

Benny_Cake

newmug wrote: »

I make of him what most of the rest of the world's population does - a bigoted, hypocritical, non-Christian, deluded dinosaur. He is the unionist Fred Phelps. He was handy to have as a political mouthpiece from the british govt. point of view, but now that the troubles have died down a bit, I'd say they're just as happy to let him fade off into oblivion.

I don't think anyone will get away with describing Ian Paisley as non-Christian. Embarrassingly enough, he is a Christian. Think of him as the crazy member of the family who always creates a scene at events. I'd also argue that until recently, he was nothing but a thorn in the side of successive British governments but that's a political matter.

Benny_Cake

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I have not denied there is a tribal element. But there is also a sectarian elements - in particular Free Presbyterian Vs Roman Catholic - that fuels the divisions.

What do Christian posters of the various denominations believe can be done to remove this sectarian element and expose the tribalism that lies beneath it?

The passage of time may be the only thing that removes it. Things have undoubtedly improved in that there is greater cooperation between churches now than ever, and incidents such as this seem to be decreasing in frequency as time passes. There is a lot of poison left over from the Troubles, as a generation emerges with no memory of those days, hopefully things will improve further.

One incident which was definitely motivated by religious bigotry in the mid-1980s was the case of David Armstrong, a Presbyterian minister in Limavady who exchanged Christmas greetings with the Catholic community, and he and the local Catholic priest visited each others churches. For this simple act of kindness and fellowship he was picketed by Free Presbyterians and received death threats from Loyalists. He fled with his family to England where he retrained as an Anglican priest (paid for by Cardinal O'Fiach of all people!) and ministered in Cork for some years but recently returned to Northern Ireland. He has received letters from a number of people in Limavady apologising for what they did in the 1980s. Attitudes do change over time.

Bannasidhe

newmug wrote: »

Nobody is unwilling to see or "admit":rolleyes: that sectarian violence still exists in Ireland. Especially on this thread. It wasn't denied once.

Thats it. You'll also find that its usually someone who has no interest in the truth of the matter, but merely wants to attack Christianity based on their own hatred or preconceptions will actually view these things as 'Christian'. Like when people use Fred Phelps as a stick to bash Christianity. Dishonesty is at the heart of it.

Would seem to suggest that this is not an issue within the wider Christian community but lies spread about the Christian community.

its nothing to do with Christianity.

Outright denial.

Tribalism - pure and simple.

Denial that there is a sectarian element.

So really, there is no need for the roll eyes when it is obvious by the dismissive responses right from the outset that some people are either unwilling to see or to admit there is a sectarian element.

Bannasidhe

Benny_Cake wrote: »

The passage of time may be the only thing that removes it. Things have undoubtedly improved in that there is greater cooperation between churches now than ever, and incidents such as this seem to be decreasing in frequency as time passes. There is a lot of poison left over from the Troubles, as a generation emerges with no memory of those days, hopefully things will improve further.

One incident which was definitely motivated by religious bigotry in the mid-1980s was the case of David Armstrong, a Presbyterian minister in Limavady who exchanged Christmas greetings with the Catholic community, and he and the local Catholic priest visited each others churches. For this simple act of kindness and fellowship he was picketed by Free Presbyterians and received death threats from Loyalists. He fled with his family to England where he retrained as an Anglican priest (paid for by Cardinal O'Fiach of all people!) and ministered in Cork for some years but recently returned to Northern Ireland. He has received letters from a number of people in Limavady apologising for what they did in the 1980s. Attitudes do change over time.

That is what I hope. I suppose that the recent outbreak in Belfast had me thinking 'I hoped we had managed to move on from this'.

Some may seem to think that I, as an Atheist, get some pleasure from sectarianism. I most certainly do not. It saddens me. I think it is a huge shame and genuinely hope that the various Christian denominations can distance themselves and make clear that they do not support of condone acts of violence undertaken in the 'name' of their religion. Just as I as an Irish citizen did not support or condone acts of violence carried out in the 'name' of Ireland.

My concern is the entrenched position of some is not helping matters. Nor is denying there is a problem.

Can Free P's, for example, and Roman Catholics find common ground and thereby prevent religious differences from fanning the flames?

PDN

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Some may seem to think that I, as an Atheist, get some pleasure from sectarianism. I most certainly do not. It saddens me. I think it is a huge shame and genuinely hope that the various Christian denominations can distance themselves and make clear that they do not support of condone acts of violence undertaken in the 'name' of their religion. Just as I as an Irish citizen did not support or condone acts of violence carried out in the 'name' of Ireland.?

I don't think you get pleasure from it. But I think, either through ignorance or dishonesty, that you are prepared to exploit it.

I'm still trying to understand what connection you draw between Ian Paisley's theological views about the Catholic Church and a bunch of yobs throwing stones at the opposite tribe in Belfast.

Do you think some little skanger from Belfast reads a webpage containing rants by Paisley and says to himself, "Damn! So Romanists believe the real presence of Jesus is in the Eucharist? That just enrages me so much that I'll go and throw a few bottles at some fenians"?

FWIW I grew up in East Belfast. I know people on either side of the sectarian divide who commited sectarian crimes, including murder. None of them had any theoological understanding of Protestantism or Catholicism while they were participants in such violence. Nor were any of them churchgoers.

It's tribalism pure and simple, and your determnination to read more into it says much more about you than it does about any 'denial' on my part.

Bannasidhe

PDN wrote: »

I don't think you get pleasure from it. But I think, either through ignorance or dishonesty, that you are prepared to exploit it.

I'm still trying to understand what connection you draw between Ian Paisley's theological views about the Catholic Church and a bunch of yobs throwing stones at the opposite tribe in Belfast.

Do you think some little skanger from Belfast reads a webpage containing rants by Paisley and says to himself, "Damn! So Romanists believe the real presence of Jesus is in the Eucharist? That just enrages me so much that I'll go and throw a few bottles at some fenians"?

FWIW I grew up in East Belfast. I know people on either side of the sectarian divide who commited sectarian crimes, including murder. None of them had any theoological understanding of Protestantism or Catholicism while they were participants in such violence. Nor were any of them churchgoers.

It's tribalism pure and simple, and your determnination to read more into it says much more about you than it does about any 'denial' on my part.

PDN - I take serious exception to this statement. It is a grossly offensive attack on my intentions. I came into this forum with the sole intention of having a serious discussion and how dare you accuse me of attempting to exploit this canker that has plagued this island for centuries.

I do not care whether thugs discuss theology or not.
I do not care where you grew up, or I grew up, or anyone else here grew up.

I care that the island upon which I live is seen by the world as the home of Sectarianism but to be honest if the best response you can come up with is to attack me than I have my answer to what the wider Christian community as represented here intends to do - absolutely nothing bar deny there is a problem and attack those who try and have an honest debate.

I have reported your post for claiming I seek to exploit a national tragedy - a remark which as I said is grossly insulting - but sadly I doubt if that will do me any good.


Benny_Cake I would like to thank you for your thoughtful and considered responses, it is a pity more respondents did not follow your example.

Can you please close this thread as it seems honest and open discussion is impossible so it's pointless to continue with it.

PDN

Bannasidhe wrote: »

PDN - I take serious exception to this statement. It is a grossly offensive attack on my intentions. I came into this forum with the sole intention of having a serious discussion and how dare you accuse me of attempting to exploit this canker that has plagued this island for centuries.

I do not care whether thugs discuss theology or not.
I do not care where you grew up, or I grew up, or anyone else here grew up.

I care that the island upon which I live is seen by the world as the home of Sectarianism but to be honest if the best response you can come up with is to attack me than I have my answer to what the wider Christian community as represented here intends to do - absolutely nothing bar deny there is a problem and attack those who try and have an honest debate.

I have reported your post for claiming I seek to exploit a national tragedy - a remark which as I said is grossly insulting - but sadly I doubt if that will do me any good.


Benny_Cake I would like to thank you for your thoughtful and considered responses, it is a pity more respondents did not follow your example.

Can you please close this thread as it seems honest and open discussion is impossible so it's pointless to continue with it.

Oh spare us the fake outrage, please. You were doing the same thing Dawkins does - exploiting tribal warfare to pursue a gripe with religion.

You say you don't care whether thugs discuss theology or not - yet you are very quick to somehow try to link Iam Paisley's theological ramblings with sectarian violence in Belfast.

So, if you don't actually care whether thugs discuss theology or not - then do your references to Paisley serve any purpose other than trolling? How are they connected with sectarian violence?

Bannasidhe

PDN wrote: »

Oh spare us the fake outrage, please. You were doing the same thing Dawkins does - exploiting tribal warfare to pursue a gripe with religion.

You say you don't care whether thugs discuss theology or not - yet you are very quick to somehow try to link Iam Paisley's theological ramblings with sectarian violence in Belfast.

So, if you don't actually care whether thugs discuss theology or not - then do your references to Paisley serve any purpose other than trolling? How are they connected with sectarian violence?

PDN. There is no point. You have placed yourself in the roll of my judge and jury and found me guilty of a crime that exists only in your own paranoia.

What gives you the right to decide what my intentions are and to judge me? You have some cheek!

Plus if you need me to point out the link between the anti-Catholic rhetoric of the Free Presbyterian and sectarian violence I suggest you spend less time judging people on internet forms and more time looking at the world around you.

Sonics2k

PDN wrote: »

Do you think some little skanger from Belfast reads a webpage containing rants by Paisley and says to himself, "Damn! So Romanists believe the real presence of Jesus is in the Eucharist? That just enrages me so much that I'll go and throw a few bottles at some fenians"?

Because the internet is the only way the propaganda from the likes of Paisley is the only way of it spreading.

It's a mixture of both, decades of fighting over a mix of religion, tribalism and loyalty to England or Ireland.

Either way, I think we can all agree the whole thing is bloody stupid.

PDN

Sonics2k wrote: »

Either way, I think we can all agree the whole thing is bloody stupid.

Now, there's something we can agree on!

newmug

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Would seem to suggest that this is not an issue within the wider Christian community but lies spread about the Christian community.


Outright denial.


Denial that there is a sectarian element.

So really, there is no need for the roll eyes when it is obvious by the dismissive responses right from the outset that some people are either unwilling to see or to admit there is a sectarian element.

You are confusing two labels, and a few other things.

Sectarianism literally means discrimination between two religious sects.

In the context of N.I., that is NOT what is happening. It never was. It has zero to do with religion, and everything to do with politics. The founders of the United Irishmen were protestant nationalists, there were protestants in the IRA, and in the republic (particularly south Dublin) there is a large contingent of Catholic unionists. Granted, the lines of division could roughly be drawn where ones denominational following lay, but religion is not, and never was at the heart of the issue. The word "sectarianism" in the NI context, is just a loose substitute word to describe whats going on. Tribalism is a far more accurate word.

Anyway, both Catholics and protestants live by "thou shalt not kill". That extends to any form of violence. Therefore, if you behave violently, you remove yourself from your position as a Christian.

And nobody is denying it happens. Everybody is, however, seeing it for what it really is - ie, nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with politics.

fitz0

Tom Barry - Guerilla Days in Ireland wrote:

The British Imperialists down the ages owe in the main, their successful conquests of many people to the technique of 'Divide and Conquer.' They have consistently urged class against class, district against district, creed against creed, and in the resultant chaos of warring sects and factions, they established themselves and maintained their rule of exploitation. So in 1920 and 1921, they fanned the flames of religious intolerance between Catholics and Protestants. Whenever one of their agents of the Faith of the majority was shot, they announced his death as Mr. X, a Protestant.

...most of the Republican leaders of the past were members of the Protestant faith: Tone, Emmet, Lord Edward Fitzgerald, Russell, Henry Joy McCracken; that Parnell was a Protestant and that the Proclamation of 1916, the political Bible of the IRA, enshrined the promise "the Republic guarantees religious and civil liberty, equal rights and opportunities to all its citizens."

Religious bigotry is the result of ignorance and all the Protestant population were not infected with it... Aloof from the National Struggle, they did not stand with our enemy and they lived their days in peace with their neighbours in spite of the British propaganda, and the bigotry and intolerance of the very small section of bigoted Catholics, Alas, religious bigotry was not confined to the Protestants for the ignorant and petty-minded Catholics, too, had their fair share of this ancient curse.

The above is an excerpt from Tom Barry's Guerilla Days in Ireland, his story from his time in the West Cork Flying Column during the war of independence. It reinforces my opinion that religion was just a tool in the struggle on both sides, a convenient distraction from the actual struggle. The current violence in the north is a direct result of centuries of this policy. It seems to me also, that the current violence coincides with the economic downturn. It must be a handy distraction to have another group to focus your displeasure on. The religion of the groups is just incidental, divorced from the actual cultural divide of national identities.

I have a Costa Rican friend who was staying in Dublin for a while this summer with her boyfriend. She's not overly religious as far as I know but when I met her she came out with some fairly anti-Protestant lines. Her boyfriend's family as it turns out are Catholic Nationalists and have a cultural dislike for Protestants and English but the difference between them is quite hazy.

It's just another example of the divide that has become ingrained in too many people and can only be stopped by a concerted effort of a single generation. If we don't pass it on to our kids, they'll never learn to hate someone for their religion. I say this as someone from the border region who grew up around this sort of attitude and it took me almost 20 years to rise above it. Even now I find myself falling back into old habits if I'm not careful. Even though I am non-religious I still draw unconscious lines between Catholic and Protestant.

marienbad

it is sectarianism and tribalism- it can be both.

Bannasidhe

What prompted me to start this thread was a conversation with my father where I was finally able to present him with the results of years of research into trying to find out what happened his 'lost' grandfather.
Now the tale I uncovered is fascinating, but all my father was interested in was 'where was he baptized?' I said COI Athlone and he became very very agitated. Shouting that his grandfather was a Catholic not one of 'them'. I must admit I was very taken aback by his attitude. I showed him the records which clearly show that his grandfather's family were Anglican since at least 1813 and 'our' branch is Catholic only because his grandfather married a Catholic. So it's only 2/3 generations ago.

I was amazed that in 2012 people in Ireland still see someone who is Protestant as an 'other' and would become very upset at learning he was descended from one of these 'others' - he actually said 'we have all-sorts so'. He's talking about Anglicans but you would think by his reaction I had told him his grandfather was a Thugee who throttled people to earn favour from Kali. :eek:

Yes, what is going on in NI is more politics and tribalism then anything else, but there is a sectarian element that feeds it which is, to a great extent, ingrained. Devoid of meaning, but ingrained.

I would like to see it 'ungrained' for the good of us all.

Sarky

Jesus, PDN, did bannasidhe personally come to your house and piss in your corn flakes? You're not doing yourself any favours.

PDN

Sarky wrote: »

Jesus, PDN, did bannasidhe personally come to your house and piss in your corn flakes? You're not doing yourself any favours.

If I just enthusiastically agree with everything she posts, no matter how off the wall her opinions are, will that make you happy?

Sarky

You could just be less snotty. Then I suspect EVERYONE would be happier.

pwurple

Sarky wrote: »

Jesus, PDN, did bannasidhe personally come to your house and piss in your corn flakes? You're not doing yourself any favours.

Sarky wrote: »

You could just be less snotty. Then I suspect EVERYONE would be happier.

Isn't the first quote quite snotty?

Juza1973

Are people worried about the violence or about how this is embarrassing when dealing with the rest of the world? And why it is so embarassing? Would gang wars fueled by drug be less embarassing? Probably they would because the scandal is not the violence (the vast majority of people wouldn't care if it was twice as violent) but the fact that the cause is perceived as being religion and nationalism while the rest of Europe consider this as a taboo. Catholicism and Protestantism are not more distant or near in the Republic rather than in Northern Ireland, it is society that is much different...

Sarky

You're right, it is. Apologies, but frustration with certain situations sometimes leads to poorly-chosen words. See what I did there?

PDN

Juza1973 wrote: »

Are people worried about the violence or about how this is embarrassing when dealing with the rest of the world? And why it is so embarassing? Would gang wars fueled by drug be less embarassing? Probably they would because the scandal is not the violence (the vast majority of people wouldn't care if it was twice as violent) but the fact that the cause is perceived as being religion and nationalism while the rest of Europe consider this as a taboo. Catholicism and Protestantism are not more distant or near in the Republic rather than in Northern Ireland, it is society that is much different...

Not quite the rest of Europe. Think of the awful rhetoric used in Serbia where the Orthodox Church was fused with nationalism in order to justify the most appalling acts of violence against Croats and Bosnians.

And that really is where this kind of thing gets poisonous. Theological disagreement (even in its most extreme Paisleyite form) rarely if ever begets violence. What is poisonous is when religious terms are used to designate tribal or nationalistic groups.

In Northern Ireland 'Protestant' and 'Catholic' are used as tribal badges, irrespective of religious beliefs. My friend, a Protestant from Bangor, married a Catholic girl from Andersonstown. They were converted to born-again Christianity 25 years ago and attend a Pentecostal church. Yet many of his neighbours still see her as a Catholic, even though she repudiates distinctive RC doctrines and hasn't set foot in a Catholic Church (except for family weddings and funerals) for decades. Her theological beliefs and church affiliation may be Protestant - but her tribal background still determines her identity in the warped world of Northern Irish thought.

Heck, even atheists in Belfast are still either Catholic atheists or Protestant atheists, depending on whether their background is Ulster-Scots or not.

Bannasidhe

PDN wrote: »

If I just enthusiastically agree with everything she posts, no matter how off the wall her opinions are, will that make you happy?

'Off the wall' meaning 'does not agree with PDN'.

PDN

Bannasidhe wrote: »

'Off the wall' meaning 'does not agree with PDN'.

Just as 'denial' means 'does not agree with Bannasidhe'. :rolleyes:

Bannasidhe

PDN wrote: »

Just as 'denial' means 'does not agree with Bannasidhe'. :rolleyes:

Disagree with me all you wish, but there is no need to be so uncivil about it.

marienbad

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Disagree with me all you wish, but there is no need to be so uncivil about it.

Good luck with that .