Car accident - who at fault?

Birroc

Hi,

I need some advice on this accident scenario;

I am following a car on a small country road with a continuous white line even though it's a straight stretch. The car in front slows down and pulls to the left but keeps moving. No indicators on. I assume he is slowing to let me past and I move to overtake. She turns right as I am overtaking - unknown to me she is turning to go into her house driveway. Her front right wing hits my left passenger door and I veer off right into a wall. Who is at fault?
Minimal damage to her car. Significant damage to mine. Both 2002 cars.
Nobody injured even though 1 passenger in my car.

Alanstrainor

You are clearly in the wrong. Sorry.

.jacksparrow.

Pretty sure its yours.

MidlandsM

Alanstrainor wrote: »

You are clearly in the wrong. Sorry.

yes, she had command of the road.

leeomurchu

You're in the wrong mate although she wasn't to clever not indicating. You could report it and argue the point she didn't indicate it'd be a case of he said she said but the over riding evidence that you were overtaking on a continuous white line will be the main issue

Tough lesson learned I reckon

complicit

Oh you are in the wrong here unfortunately.

ford2600

Accident happened on incorrect side of road for both of ye.

Can't go there without making sure it's safe to do so.

She failed to indicate and check mirrors(according to you).

You crossed white line. That cant be denied

75/25 against you

Birroc wrote: »

Hi,

I need some advice on this accident scenario;

I am following a car on a small country road with a continuous white line even though it's a straight stretch. The car in front slows down and pulls to the left but keeps moving. No indicators on. I assume he is slowing to let me past and I move to overtake. She turns right as I am overtaking - unknown to me she is turning to go into her house driveway. Her front right wing hits my left passenger door and I veer off right into a wall. Who is at fault?
Minimal damage to her car. Significant damage to mine. Both 2002 cars.
Nobody injured even though 1 passenger in my car.

cats.life

sorry op but its your fault. if your not sure what car is doing in front ,back off.its what i do.

TheBody

Birroc wrote: »

Hi,

I need some advice on this accident scenario;

I am following a car on a small country road with a continuous white line even though it's a straight stretch. The car in front slows down and pulls to the left but keeps moving. No indicators on. I assume he is slowing to let me past and I move to overtake. She turns right as I am overtaking - unknown to me she is turning to go into her house driveway. Her front right wing hits my left passenger door and I veer off right into a wall. Who is at fault?
Minimal damage to her car. Significant damage to mine. Both 2002 cars.
Nobody injured even though 1 passenger in my car.

Edit: Just re-read the original post again. As somebody suggested above you might be able to claim 75:25 against you. For what it's worth, it REALLY pisses me off when people don't indicate. Were the Gardai called out? What did they say?

Mr. Nice

There should be a dotted line in front of her entrance, plus she carried out her manouevre before checking it was safe to do so. She hit the OP's car, not vice versa.
But, as usual, the insurance companies will have the final say so. Main thing is nobody injured.
Should've called cops, asked for her to be breathalysed and volunteered a breath sample. Her actions sound like those of somebody who was under the influence.

leeomurchu

TheBody wrote: »

I disagree with the other posters. At that rate if anybody turned right without indicating and you are overtaking, you would be at fault. I suspect your argument would depend on the impact point of the car into your. i.e if you were well into the overtaking manouver you could claim that the car infront clearly didn't look in their mirrors before turning. It REALLY pisses me off when people don't indicate. What is the point of having them on car if nobody uses them.

Continuous white line = No overtaking

christmas2012

yeah by reading the post unfortunately it is yourself,i think its a very overlooked mistake,an easy mistake that anybody could have made,thankfully nobody got hurt hope it all gets sorted with minimal fuss!

kirving

You shouln't have overtaken on a continous line. Mark against you.

Just because there is a continous white line does not mean that she should assume that noone is there and not look in her mirrors. That is one mark against her. No indication either, 2 marks.

Legally I'd think thats about it. So about 65-35 against her?

ford2600

Perhaps, but crossing continous white line by OP is undeniable.

Lack of mirror check and indicator is deniable, which would weigh heavily against OP. It's likely 3rd party will say she checked her mirror and had indicator on, whether it's true or not

75/25 is not bad when you overtake on CWL

Kevin Irving wrote: »

You shouln't have overtaken on a continous line. Mark against you.

Just because there is a continous white line does not mean that she should assume that noone is there and not look in her mirrors. That is one mark against her. No indication either, 2 marks.

Legally I'd think thats about it. So about 65-35 against her?

leeomurchu

Kevin Irving wrote: »

You shouln't have overtaken on a continous line. Mark against you.

Just because there is a continous white line does not mean that she should assume that noone is there and not look in her mirrors. That is one mark against her. No indication either, 2 marks.

Legally I'd think thats about it. So about 65-35 against her?

It's case of he said she said and he is completely at fault forget about this 65/35 or whatever else who's to say she didn't look in her mirror or that the bulb was gone in her rear indicator

He says she didn't indicate

she says she did indicate

Either way he broke the law by over taking on a continuous white line probably in a big rush to no where.

The op will be liable for any damages to her car, the rules of the road are there for a reason.

over taking on a continuous white line,
wreckless driving by doing so,
did he indicate his intent?

This could've been worse than what it was but state your case to your insurance company I'm fairly sure you'll have no grounds for making a claim against her and the gardaí could prosecute you.

leeomurchu

Check out no.5-9 http://www.rotr.ie/accidents-gardai-and-penalties/penalty-points-fixed-charge-offences/index.html

Birroc

She did admit there were no indicators and that she didn't see me even though I had been following her for about half a mile.
No guards were called. Doubt drink taken.

TheBody

Birroc wrote: »

She did admit there were no indicators and that she didn't see me even though I had been following her for about half a mile.
No guards were called. Doubt drink taken.

Big mistake. Always call the Gardai. She can say you fell out of the sky and hit her. The Gardai would take notes and make a official record of what happened. Do you at least have pictures of the scene after the crash (and before ye moved your cars)?

kbyte61

I know according to the law the OP was 100% wrong but imo what the other person did in this situation was far more inconsiderate and dangerous. Not indicating to other road users what your intentions are is just plain ignorant and inconsiderate with no exceptions. Imo the person who did not indicate is more of a danger to other road users than the OP.

leeomurchu

kbyte61 wrote: »

I know according to the law the OP was 100% wrong but imo what the other person did in this situation was far more inconsiderate and dangerous. Not indicating to other road users what your intentions are is just plain ignorant and inconsiderate with no exceptions. Imo the person who did not indicate is more of a danger to other road users than the OP.

There's no denying her lack of road skill and how stupid it is not too indicate but sure we see that everyday with drivers not indicating.

unfortunately on this occasion he hit her while overtaking illegally and although she admitted not indicating it was unfortunately to the op and not a garda I'd imagine someone is telling her as we speak to say that she indicated clearly and in time.

That's the world we live in as I said tough lesson learned

bobin fudge

as an afterthought sounds dangerous as well to be turning right into her drive if it is a continuous white line

jhegarty

leeomurchu wrote: »

There's no denying her lack of road skill and how stupid it is not too indicate but sure we see that everyday with drivers not indicating.

unfortunately on this occasion he hit her while overtaking illegally and although she admitted not indicating it was unfortunately to the op and not a garda I'd imagine someone is telling her as we speak to say that she indicated clearly and in time.

That's the world we live in as I said tough lesson learned

I don't see how the OPs turn as any more illegal then the other driver.

kbyte61

leeomurchu wrote: »

There's no denying her lack of road skill and how stupid it is not too indicate but sure we see that everyday with drivers not indicating.

unfortunately on this occasion he hit her while overtaking illegally and although she admitted not indicating it was unfortunately to the op and not a garda I'd imagine someone is telling her as we speak to say that she indicated clearly and in time.

That's the world we live in as I said tough lesson learned

Yup, you're 100% right. I see it happen multiple times every single day-mostly on roundabouts. I've found that the more experienced I get the more I can see it coming. It irritates me more than anything else when it comes to driving.

Decoda

bobin fudge wrote: »

as an afterthought sounds dangerous as well to be turning right into her drive if it is a continuous white line

According to rules of the road.....

Single or double solid white line = All traffic must keep to the left of the line (except for emergency or access)

DC

eskimocat

Once you are the car behind, you need to be able to stop, no matter what madness the person in front of you is at..

Shane Fitz

TheBody wrote: »

Birroc wrote: »

Big mistake. Always call the Gardai. She can say you fell out of the sky and hit her. The Gardai would take notes and make a official record of what happened. Do you at least have pictures of the scene after the crash (and before ye moved your cars)?

And that is why it always takes a feicin age to clear accidents in this country. Unless there injuries or suspicion of drink then exchange details and clear the road. You don't always need to call the Gardai. By all means inform them, but they don't need to be called to scene all the time. Inform insurance, state your case and leave it to them.. That's what you pay for

Birroc

TheBody wrote: »

Inform insurance, state your case and leave it to them.. That's what you pay for

Should you always inform the insurance company? I have 3rd party and theft and I doubt the other driver will get insurers involved - she didn't even ask for details. 50/50 was agreed at the accident.

leeomurchu

jhegarty wrote: »

I don't see how the OPs turn as any more illegal then the other driver.

He wasn't turning he was overtaking her

leeomurchu

Birroc wrote: »

Should you always inform the insurance company? I have 3rd party and theft and I doubt the other driver will get insurers involved - she didn't even ask for details. 50/50 was agreed at the accident.

Happy days so if she's covering her costs I'd let sleeping dogs lie you could come out of this a lot worse off than your insurance going up. Hopefully nobody talks her round this evening if not you're quids in and lesson learned.

bobin fudge

perhaps she has been told in the past that taking the right turn could be illegal and is worried she could possibly get done if the guards were involved etc

art davidson

MidlandsM wrote: »

yes, she had poor command of the road.

FYP

leeomurchu

Decoda wrote: »

According to rules of the road.....

Single or double solid white line = All traffic must keep to the left of the line (except for emergency or access)

DC

I think Decoda cleared up the rules regarding access:)

leeomurchu

art davidson wrote: »

FYP

FYP ??

keithclancy

OP ran into a Car that was in front of him, slowing down, speeding up whichever they were still in front.

You can never overtake a car on a solid white line (If you do so, you do at your own risk and possibly others also)

100% in the wrong i'd say, tough break OP, it happens. At least its a lesson though, albeit an expensive one.


The above scenario is how a lot of inexperienced motorcyclists end up seriously injured.

stoneill

I wouldn't say 100% wrong, but around 75% wrong.

The car in front was slowing down, no indicators, common sense would tell you that she was stopping. I think that I might have made the same assumption as the OP and went for the overtake.

leeomurchu

keithclancy wrote: »

The above scenario is how a lot of inexperienced motorcyclists end up seriously injured.

unfortunately you're dead right

OldmanMondeo

Anyone saying the car in front was anyway in the wrong should hand the car keys in now. You can not over take on a solid white line. The car in front should have indicated, she didn't, the OP should not have overtaken, had the OP looked he probably would have seen the house on the right.

Big no no for the OP here, over taking on a solid white line, lack of obersvation, turn ahead on the right, anyone could have pulled out of there. OP is lucky the other driver didn't take his insurance details.

Yawns

No need to be as harsh as to say if he was paying attention he'd have seen the house. So many stupid hedges on most of our roads and you don't see the driveways until you are passing them. Car in front was an idiot for not indicating and checking mirrors. OP was idiot for not following the #1 rule when he saw a car ahead slowing down and pulling slightly to the left on a solid white line. That rule is of course always treat other road users as idiots and as if they about to do something stupid. Saved myself 4 crashes in the last week alone with that rule.

Unfortunately if it goes insurance route, you're screwed op. They won't care about your side after hearing your story. Once you tell them you were behind, saw her slowing down and decide to overtake on a CWL they will just pay out. Easier for them and they don't care about your NCB or the fact you'll be paying through the nose for the next few years. They want to pay out as little as possible and get a case closed as quick as they can knowing that you are liable for the accident. Sorry. Hopefully she doesn't pursue it, but you can bet your ass she'll be telling a relative or friend the story and they will convince her to claim.

djimi

Birroc wrote: »

Should you always inform the insurance company? I have 3rd party and theft and I doubt the other driver will get insurers involved - she didn't even ask for details. 50/50 was agreed at the accident.

Always inform your insurance company of an accident, even if you dont intend on claiming from them. If she turns around at some point down the road and tries to claim that she has a sore neck your insurance will not take kindly to not being informed of the accident at the time.

Simply notifying them of the accident should not affect your premium; Ive done it twice with no consequence.

ZENER

Kinda sorta OT, if the OP had a dash cam and could prove everything he's said, what then ?
I sympathise with the OP on this, indicating seems to be optional in this country from my experience.

Ken

Yawns

He'd still be at fault and most likely liable for the whole accident. Indicators don't give a right of way so at the end of the day it doesn't matter if the car ahead used them or not from a legal point of view. The other car could cross the white line for access reasons. The op could not cross the white line for the purpose of overtaking. The worst that could be said for the other person from a legal point of view is that they made turn without checking that the way was clear. Doesn't absolve the op for crossing the white line so even with a dash cam he'd still be in the same position.

ValerieR

Birroc wrote: »

Hi,

I need some advice on this accident scenario;

I am following a car on a small country road with a continuous white line even though it's a straight stretch. The car in front slows down and pulls to the left but keeps moving. No indicators on. I assume he is slowing to let me past and I move to overtake. She turns right as I am overtaking - unknown to me she is turning to go into her house driveway. Her front right wing hits my left passenger door and I veer off right into a wall. Who is at fault?
Minimal damage to her car. Significant damage to mine. Both 2002 cars.
Nobody injured even though 1 passenger in my car.

While I do think that you might be in the wrong in the eyes of the insurances (white line and all the rest), I would definitely play on highlighting the fact that the other car's 'body language' was not consistent with turning to the right.

Also, if your passenger door was damaged, it's more like the other car hit you rather than the other way around ...

Best of luck.

Yawns

ValerieR wrote: »

While I do think that you might be in the wrong in the eyes of the insurances (white line and all the rest), I would definitely play on highlighting the fact that the other car's 'body language' was not consistent with turning to the right.

Also, if your passenger door was damaged, it's more like the other car hit you rather than the other way around ...

Best of luck.

How would he explain that he was on the wrong side of the road where a continuous white line is? I know you mentioned that bit as well. For the rest of it, the other car had pulled to the left when slowing down in order to get a good angle for turning right. The op as he was overtaking would most likely have done the normal overtaking procedure and sped up a bit to get past them and back in lane. It would have all happened in a few short seconds and fortunately noone was hurt.

Yawns

As it the OP seems to think it won't be put through the insurance. Bit of luck this is the case. No harm and more good than bad for you to at least inform your insurance company but tell them it might be settled between yourselves. They won't do anything in the meantime and it should not affect you in any way, but covers you if in 3 months time the other person decides to call up and claim.

Damien360

Accept the blame for overtake on solid white line which is the one thing that kills your defense. Pay for her wing mirror in cash and decide if your 2002 is worth repairing. If it is you have insurance, use it. If not, move on and take it as a lesson learned.

I know a woman first hand that got done for that scenario in Newbridge except she was being overtaken. She did not look as she changed lanes and the overtaking car hit her. Insurance paid out to overtaker despite her protests and she was at fault. Critically, she turned where there was no solid white line and was deemed to be 100% at fault despite overtaking woman taking 3 cars in that manouvere in a 50kmph zone out the Athgarvan road in Newbridge. Failure to observe. Work that one out.

Yawns

It was because she failed to check the lane was clear and there was a reasonable chance she could have been overtaken where the there was a broken line. Simple really. However in OP case he says it was a solid white line.

For your story with the car overtaken 3 cars, it won't matter to insurance company whether it was 1 car or 10. That's for the guards to deal with in a case of dangerous or reckless driving. Did your friend make a complaint to the garda with witness reports? It wouldn't have effected the insurance outcome but at least it would be something meaningful against a reckless driver.

Edit. Sorry re-reading you mean she was turning into a house and she was found in the wrong?

If she had slowed down and stopped, turned and had indicated then it would have been harsh to find her in the wrong unless an independent witness said otherwise.

vdriver

The way I see it , she's at fault for changing direction without checking if it's safe to do so. Once she left her lane, she lost all right of way. It is irrelevant if he passed on the continuous white line as is irrelevant if she signalled or not. She hit he's door with her wing, not the other way around. I'm curious if the road markings even allowed her to turn in the drive way from the other side of the road. I see plenty of drivers turning in to their drive way over a continuous white line.

Bruthal

vdriver wrote: »

The way I see it......

I'm curious if the road markings even allowed her to turn in the drive way from the other side of the road. I see plenty of drivers turning in to their drive way over a continuous white line.

Well you best re-look. A driver can cross the continuous line for access. Common sense thankfully, unfortunately missing from many drivers though.

leeomurchu

vdriver wrote: »

The way I see it , she's at fault for changing direction without checking if it's safe to do so. Once she left her lane, she lost all right of way. It is irrelevant if he passed on the continuous white line as is irrelevant if she signalled or not. She hit he's door with her wing, not the other way around. I'm curious if the road markings even allowed her to turn in the drive way from the other side of the road. I see plenty of drivers turning in to their drive way over a continuous white line.

Not to sure why people keep pointing out that she hit him yes she hit a car doing a dangerous illegal move that shouldn't have been there at all whether she checked her mirrors is of no consequence as there should be no car over taking on a continuous white line which she is legally allowed to cross for access.

Also op stated it was a narrow country road she wouldn't have left her lane possibly only moved slightly to the left of her lane.

I think the op has his answer at this stage and should hope that this lady still doesn't want to claim. If you do fancy getting the gardaí involved there's a good chance you'll be looking at 6 points and an insurance claim against you and if you had a dash cam yes she may get a couple of points and a fine for failing to indicate her intent that'd be about it.

kbyte61

I'm wondering, how many people here have overtaken very slow moving vehicles like tractors on roads with continuous white lines? I do it all the time and I'm sure there are plenty of other people that do the same. Seriously, sometimes its not that bad to cross a CWL if you're overtaking something thats only doing 20mph. The maneuver doesn't take more than 5 seconds.

slimjimmc

vdriver wrote: »

The way I see it , she's at fault for changing direction without checking if it's safe to do so. Once she left her lane, she lost all right of way. It is irrelevant if he passed on the continuous white line as is irrelevant if she signalled or not. She hit he's door with her wing, not the other way around. I'm curious if the road markings even allowed her to turn in the drive way from the other side of the road. I see plenty of drivers turning in to their drive way over a continuous white line.

Anyone learned in the Rules of the Road and the traffic law they are derived from (that should be all drivers) would know that it's permitted to cross a single or double solid white line for access to a premises. That's what the lady was doing.
http://www.rotr.ie/rules-for-driving/traffic-signs-road-markings/road-markings.html