Are Northern teams overhyped? If so, why?

lala88

This is taken from the Kerry GAA Forum

To start, this has nothing to do with a dislike or jealousy of Northern teams. This also has nothing to do with a Kerry victimisation complex, it's to do with Southern teams being overlooked in general. Fair play to Ulster teams. At one stage winning Ulster was as much as they could hope for, that's no longer the case. In the past twenty years, they are level with Munster on 7 AI's each. That's 2 for Down, 1 for Armagh, 1 for Derry and most impressively 3 for Tyrone. Clearly, Ulster teams know how to win. However, over the past 10 years I think I've seen Ulster teams overblown by the media in a way that successful Southern teams aren't.

Tyrone 2001-10: Tyrone were a GREAT team. Their achievements speak for themselves. 3 AI's, 2 leagues, 5 Ulsters. They were definitely one of the top two teams of their generation, and they certainly knew how to beat us, 3-0 to Tyrone! This however, is the only relevant stat that they led against Kerry.

Tyrone were beaten by teams like Mayo (04), Laois (06), Derry (01) & Sligo (02). Yet, Tyrone were being pushed by the media as team of the decade. After the 08 final (Tyrone were sublime by the way), Martin Breheny (normally spot on), said 'Tyrone are now clearly the best team of the decade'. A year later, he had to track back and say the after the 09 final that 'it seems ridiculous to think Tyrone were being pushed by the media as team of the decade'. The most stupid comment came from Kieran McGeeney, claiming Tyrone were the best team of the last 30 years, bar none. Oh, come on! They weren't even the best team of their generation, and I certainly didn't see them coming within seconds of five AI's in a row!

I don't want to be hard on Tyrone, they were a magnificent side, and this wasn't their fault, but they weren't quite the best of the decade, and the stats ain't helping their case. But still, 3-0 against us is pretty impressive

Armagh 02-06: This is the big one for me. Armagh were pretty fortunate to win the final, but I wasn't complaining at the time! I started shouting for them and it was a great story. You couldn't begrudge it to them! But then, for the next 4 years, they were overhyped, not by Armagh themselves, but by the media. They were made favourites in 03 once they made the qf's, Brolly described them as devastating. I knew they wouldn't win the 03 final. In 04, they were made favourites. Brolly described them as devastating. Fermanagh beat them. In 05, I knew they wouldnt beat Tyrone, or us if they played us. This after being made favourites again by many. In 06, they won Ulster for the 3rd year in a row (yes, a mighty achievement), and Marty Morrissey decribed them as one of the great teams. Good teams win 1 AI, Great teams win 2. Ger Gilroy asked on Park Live, 'can anyone stop Armagh?'. Kerry trounced them by 8 in Croke Park, after Brolly only fleetingly mentioned that Kerry were playing beforehand and at half time waffled on about their amazing system, that they had distilled football to it's essence. That was rubbish. Now don't get me wrong, Armagh were a very good team, and maybe one AI didn't do them justice. But they were overhyped consistenly.

Donegal 11-present day: This team can still prove me wrong, and they might do. They're a very good side. But Brolly has driven me demented with what I feel is hyperbole. 'This is Ground Zero for football'. 'Jim McGuinness is a genius, he just comes along and turns the game on it's head'. 'It's devastating, very little can go wrong'. 'They are marching relentlessly towards an All Ireland'. This system is being made out to be rocket science. They were overblown after beating a very poor Down team. Someone on newstalk chuckled when Donegal were brought up, and went on to say 'they are SOME outfit'. Yes, they were excellent, but it was hardly reported that Mayo beat them by the same scoreline! That's because it was only Mayo. Their system is being made out to be a rocket science that will be studied at Trinity in years to come. It's ugly, it's quite effective, but I don't think it's as genius as it's being made out to be. It beat a declining Kerry team by a kick of a ball. As another poster pointed out, get two men on McFadden, two on Murphy, and I fully believe that threat going forward is limited greatly! Martin McHugh said Kerry are ten years behind the Ulster teams. Well, if we'd payed more attention in the last five minutes last year, we'd have won an AI only last year, but a very good Dublin team pounced. A team that outmuscled Donegal in a war of attrition last year. It was the first time in three years that a team from outside Munster won the title, and the third time in a row that a team from outside Ulster won the AI. I think that run will continue

In the last three years, Cork have won three leagues in a row, and I fully expect them to make it two AI's in three years this year. Will they be touted as much as Donegal if they were to win it? Something tells me they won't.

I shouldn't pay such attention to the media. Normally I don't talk about it. But after ten years of it; it does start to grate. Maybe Donegal will prove me wrong, and fair play to the very nice people there if they do. But until then, I'll be reserving my praise.

Read more: http://kerrygaa.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=4511#ixzz24OSO2dGM

Vorenus

In the past twenty years, they are level with Munster on 7 AI's each. That's 2 for Down, 1 for Armagh, 1 for Derry and most impressively 3 for Tyrone.

Donegal won an All Ireland in the last 20 years also. So that would be 8 going to Ulster.

K-9

It probably comes from how innovative they are, going back to Down in the 60's and that Kerry have a complex about them! Down have never lost a Championship game to them, Tyrone only 1 in the bad old days and Donegal just beat them. Kerry are seen as the standard to beat and well, we do it rather well compared to the others!

I'd agree Tryone and Armagh should have won more but they often were entered in the first round of the qualifiers, something Kerry are never going to have to do, let's be honest. Tyrone had their problems and Armagh well, had Tyrone to contend with.

While you do raise valid points it still comes down to Kerry winning "soft" All Irelands, Tyrone, Armagh, Down and Donegal have beaten them in big matches when it mattered. Connaught or Leinster can't match that record and it goes back to Down in the 60's. They respect them but don't fear them, instead they look for the new thing to beat them.

As for Brolley, he doesn't like Donegals' style, just respects it. Must be about the only 1 who can comment on Donegals training as he managed to sneak in and watch a session!

ciarriaithuaidh

K-9 wrote: »

It probably comes from how innovative they are, going back to Down in the 60's and that Kerry have a complex about them! Down have never lost a Championship game to them, Tyrone only 1 in the bad old days and Donegal just beat them. Kerry are seen as the standard to beat and well, we do it rather well compared to the others!

I'd agree Tryone and Armagh should have won more but they often were entered in the first round of the qualifiers, something Kerry are never going to have to do, let's be honest. Tyrone had their problems and Armagh well, had Tyrone to contend with.

While you do raise valid points it still comes down to Kerry winning "soft" All Irelands, Tyrone, Armagh, Down and Donegal have beaten them in big matches when it mattered. Connaught or Leinster can't match that record and it goes back to Down in the 60's. They respect them but don't fear them, instead they look for the new thing to beat them.

As for Brolley, he doesn't like Donegals' style, just respects it. Must be about the only 1 who can comment on Donegals training as he managed to sneak in and watch a session!

:rolleyes: Well, given you're a "moderator" I'm going to nibble on this one...

2004 was a relatively soft all ireland...the closest Kerry came to losing all year was to Limerick in Munster...but Dublin and Derry (Ulster team if I'm not mistaken) were comfortably despatched in the 1/4 and semi final, before the Mayo debacle in the final.

Th rest of the AI's won since then..soft me b*llix.
2006, the final and semi final might have been softish..but the biggest game that year was the 1/4 final...huge underdogs against Armagh (note..Armagh as in 6 titles in 8 years in Ulster) who were raging favourites. Armagh destroyed Kerry for most of first half, but Kerry run riot for 20 mins after half time. Armagh come back to within 2, Galvin is sent off..Kerry are hanging on..but Darran O'Sullivans goal seals it. Soft win?...Yeah right.
2007 - 1/4 final, put to the pin of collar by Monaghan (Ulster team again..who led by 1 with time nearly up)...as tough a team as there was in that period. Pull it out of the fire in last few mins with Sheehan and Tomás edging it for Kerry. Semi final..biggest game that year..closest Dublin came to an AI under Caffrey...great game, Kerry edge it by 2. Final was poor and Cork didn't turn up.
2009 - again underdogs to Cork who had destroyed Tyrone with 14 men. Kerry written off as finished before Dublin 1/4 final after scraping over Antrim/Sligo. Beat Dublin by 17 with what Colm O'Rourke called the greatest first half display he ever saw in Croker. In the final, in a titanic struggle, triumph over Cork.

That 4 years when the Kerry won All Irelands winning tight tough games in each year..and beating Ulster teams in the knockout stages in 3 of them...I rest my case.

K-9

Exceptions to the rule and that's all the they are. AFAIK the only teams to beat Kerry in Quarter Finals are Down and Donegal, Down through pure exuberance and Donegal through the system. That isn't a coincidence especially when you add Tyrone in. It's borne out by Kerry's obsession with Ulster football, they know they are the real threat, witness the super confidence after beating Tyrone in Tralee, ye thought you'd it cracked and thought it was 09 again.

The_Honeybadger

Kerry never seemed to be able to figure out how to beat Tyrone over the past decade and they won't be considered a truly great team because of that, that will always be there in the back of Kerry supporters minds when the great Kerry teams are being talked about. Kerry were able to beat teams who could beat Tyrone, but couldn't beat Tyrone themselves.
It's probably 50/50 between Tyrone and Kerry as the best team of the past decade, but Tyrone clearly win hands down in the battles between them. I also believe Northern football is overhyped and can't see Donegal going all the way. They beat a fairly poor Kerry who didn't play to their strengths on the day to get to the SF, and will come undone against Cork IMO, who won't roll over in the manner that Kerry did. Cork for sam this year.
Northern teams brought a new level of fitness and discipline to football over the past decade, and Tyrone and Armagh in particular had really class players to complement this, Harte and Kernan did incredible jobs at the time but I reckon Nothern football will go on the slide in the near future as Southern teams rise to the challenge. Kerry are probably in for a couple of years of rebuilding now as the team that lost the QF didn;t look to have the stomach for Donegal. Of course a new manager could change everything, a shrewd manager with a new system might be the answer but there is a lot of ageing legs in that side that can't go on forever. They have intoduced some new players in the past two years like Crowley, Maher and a few others, but I don't see any replacements of the quality of the O' Se's, Moynihan etc who were so pivotal in Kerry's success in the 00's. Cork and Dublin look to be better placed to win All Irelands over the coming years.

gaelic cowboy

Hmm are northern teams overhyped it's possible but I would say that if true it's mostly on the Armagh side of the equation.

Interestingly from 1999 to 2010 only two teams could win an Ulster title and they were Armagh and Tyrone yet four teams won in Connacht and Leinster, the constant talk of football been changed by an Ulster system doesnt stack up in my view.

In reality if there was any change back then it was probably by Tyrone but they were only after building on traits that could be seen in the Armagh and Mayo teams in mid to late 90s.

On Donegal I think the idea they have reinvented football is laughable, how is it reinvention to pack your defense and counter attack at speed. I would say they are profiting from a lack of long range scorers, that might have summit to do with highlighting of possesion and turnovers by stats people in the last decade.

Basically this hyper-defensive Donegal style can now win because an environment has been created that it can survive in, I'm guessing that Kerry's slow decline might have a bearing here as basically everyone was adapting to try and beat them.





Now can Donegal win against Cork or are they overhyped I would say they can win against Cork and yes they are more than capable of winning the AI.

elguapo

K-9 wrote: »

Exceptions to the rule and that's all the they are. AFAIK the only teams to beat Kerry in Quarter Finals are Down and Donegal, Down through pure exuberance and Donegal through the system. That isn't a coincidence especially when you add Tyrone in. It's borne out by Kerry's obsession with Ulster football, they know they are the real threat, witness the super confidence after beating Tyrone in Tralee, ye thought you'd it cracked and thought it was 09 again.

Who's "ye"? i don't think too many Kerry fans were under the illusion that this team was on a par with the '09 team. We knew how tough a test Donegal were going to be, and so it proved.

As for "hyping" or "overhyping", who cares? Tyrone were a great team in the 00s, so were Kerry, Armagh maybe a little bit behind both of them, but still a great team. They all won All-Irelands, and fair play to them.

lala88

If Kerrys All Irelands were ''soft'' does that not mean that Armagh and Tyrones are aswell? Or is it only when Kerry win thats the case?

Sunnyisland

There are no soft All Irelands imo, Any team that get,s there and win it deserve it,To say there soft is to disregard the years training and effort that the teams put in to get there.

ciarriaithuaidh

K-9 wrote: »

Exceptions to the rule and that's all the they are. AFAIK the only teams to beat Kerry in Quarter Finals are Down and Donegal, Down through pure exuberance and Donegal through the system. That isn't a coincidence especially when you add Tyrone in. It's borne out by Kerry's obsession with Ulster football, they know they are the real threat, witness the super confidence after beating Tyrone in Tralee, ye thought you'd it cracked and thought it was 09 again.

Now that you have proved you are clueless, I no longer feel the need to converse with you!

Down won through "pure exuberance"..lol. Stick to the politics lad!

lala88

realies wrote: »

There are no soft All Irelands imo, Any team that get,s there and win it deserve it,To say there soft is to disregard the years training and effort that the teams put in to get there.

Yes there are but only the ones Kerry win

Tom Joad

Ulster football is the most competitive and hardest province to win - the football is tougher and harder - therefore if you win Ulster you are considered serious contenders for an All-Ireland.

In the other provinces at any one time there is only 2 or very max 3 contenders to win the title.

Btw to say that any team has won soft All-Ireland's is a load of me arse - there is no such thing..

gaelic cowboy

Tom Joad wrote: »

Ulster football is the most competitive and hardest province to win - the football is tougher and harder - therefore if you win Ulster you are considered serious contenders for an All-Ireland.

In the other provinces at any one time there is only 2 or very max 3 contenders to win the title.

Btw to say that any team has won soft All-Ireland's is a load of me arse - there is no such thing..

From 1999-2012 only Tyrone, Armagh and Donegal have won in Ulster with 7 Armagh 5 Tyrone 2 Donegal.

Which is exactly the same in Ulster as all the other provinces where 2 or 3 teams carve it up between them.

Tom Joad

gaelic cowboy wrote: »

From 1999-2012 only Tyrone and Armagh and Donegal have won in Ulster with 7 Armagh 5 Tyrone 2 Donegal.

Which is exactly the same in Ulster as all the other provinces 2 or 3 teams carve it up between them.

ok fair point - will put it differently then every year 4/5 teams in Ulster are in with a good chance of winning it - its unpredictable unlike the other provinces - outside the top 2/3 in the other provinces there is no other team realistically in contention for a all-ireland semi-final etc. Look at Down in 2010, the runs made by Monaghan, Fermanagh and to a lesser extent Derry.

jimbo79

without a doubt tyrone were the team of the last decade, they beat kerry in two finals and the defending all ireland champions in 03, if you look at the teams they beat over that decade compared to the teams kerry beat this become more obvious

elguapo

jimbo79 wrote: »

without a doubt tyrone were the team of the last decade, they beat kerry in two finals and the defending all ireland champions in 03, if you look at the teams they beat over that decade compared to the teams kerry beat this become more obvious

I'd compose a proper reply, but you're probably back under your bridge already.

jimbo79

elguapo wrote: »

I'd compose a proper reply, but you're probably back under your bridge already.

lol not at all, enlighten me

ardmacha

People often note that Armagh beat Kerry by a single point in 2002. However Armagh and Kerry went to extra time in a replay in the 2000 semi-final and only Maurice Fitz brilliance saw Kerry through. In 2001, Armagh were beaten by a point by the AI champions, Galway.

The one where Armagh dropped the ball completely was in 2004. Had they had a different draw in the QFs they would have a totally different frame of mind and might well have won the AI. I blame Donegal, who should have beaten Fermanagh and Armagh could not have been drawn against them.

In 2005 it is worth noting that Tyrone and Armagh were inevitably going to meet i the semi final in the way the draw was then structured. Kerry only had to play one of the two and did less well against Tyrone than Armagh did.

Smartly Dressed

I don't mean to detract from the debate but if you're going to listen to Joe Brolly then yes, Northern teams are overhyped. Brolly can begin to sketch out some decent points but it eventually plummets quite quickly into an incoherent doodle under the pressure of the studio lights and the likes of Lyster and Spillane hearing what they want to hear instead of actually trying to listen.

lala88 wrote: »

Their system is being made out to be a rocket science that will be studied at Trinity in years to come. It's ugly, it's quite effective, but I don't think it's as genius as it's being made out to be. It beat a declining Kerry team by a kick of a ball. [...] Well, if we'd payed more attention in the last five minutes last year, we'd have won an AI only last year, but a very good Dublin team pounced.

I think you're being unfairly presumptuous. You can't look back in retrospect at these games with carefully framed comments like ''just a kick of a ball'' and ''if we'd been paying more attention''.

elguapo

jimbo79 wrote: »

lol not at all, enlighten me

Well, if we take the 00s in their entirety, Kerry lost to the following teams in knockout situations: Tyrone, Armagh, Meath. That's it. They beat every team worth mentioning bar Tyrone. They reached 8 All-Ireland finals.They won 5 of them.

Tyrone reached 3 All-Ireland finals, and won the 3. However, they were beaten in knockout situations by Armagh, Derry, Sligo, Mayo, Laois, Meath and Cork.

Team of the decade is subjective, obviously, but you can't just say, "well Tyrone beat better teams, end of story".

Tyrone had the upper hand against Kerry, but Kerry were only beaten by great teams, Tyrone failed tests against supposedly weaker teams on many occasions.

You're entitled to your opinion, but you've oversimplified the debate to suit your own ends.

blackbelt

elguapo wrote: »

Well, if we take the 00s in their entirety, Kerry lost to the following teams in knockout situations: Tyrone, Armagh, Meath. That's it. They beat every team worth mentioning bar Tyrone. They reached 8 All-Ireland finals.They won 5 of them.

Tyrone reached 3 All-Ireland finals, and won the 3. However, they were beaten in knockout situations by Armagh, Derry, Sligo, Mayo, Laois, Meath and Cork.

Team of the decade is subjective, obviously, but you can't just say, "well Tyrone beat better teams, end of story".

Tyrone had the upper hand against Kerry, but Kerry were only beaten by great teams, Tyrone failed tests against supposedly weaker teams on many occasions.

You're entitled to your opinion, but you've oversimplified the debate to suit your own ends.

In fairness 2 of the 3 teams you mentioned that beat Kerry were 2 of the teams (more or less) who beat Tyrone..Meath and Armagh. Kerry were fully expected to beat Meath in that semi final that year and got a pasting.It is well documented that in 2006 and 2007 Tyrone were plagued with injuries.

I don;t think anybody on the Ulster side of the argument is suiting their argument anymore than those on the Kerry side.

lala88

blackbelt wrote: »

In fairness 2 of the 3 teams you mentioned that beat Kerry were 2 of the teams (more or less) who beat Tyrone..Meath and Armagh. Kerry were fully expected to beat Meath in that semi final that year and got a pasting.It is well documented that in 2006 and 2007 Tyrone were plagued with injuries.

I don;t think anybody on the Ulster side of the argument is suiting their argument anymore than those on the Kerry side.

Where were they from 2000 to 2002?

elguapo

blackbelt wrote: »

In fairness 2 of the 3 teams you mentioned that beat Kerry were 2 of the teams (more or less) who beat Tyrone..Meath and Armagh. Kerry were fully expected to beat Meath in that semi final that year and got a pasting.It is well documented that in 2006 and 2007 Tyrone were plagued with injuries.

I don;t think anybody on the Ulster side of the argument is suiting their argument anymore than those on the Kerry side.

If you honestly think I'm as glib in my analysis of the decade as the guy I'm responding to, I've failed miserably.

Not arguing that Kerry didn't fail some big tests, every team does.

As for injuries, every team gets them, Tyrone moreso in those years, but you play the hand you're dealt. Maybe we can just call them both great teams and leave it at that, just maddens me when somebody attempts to reduce the debate to one sentence.

Stoner

Smartly Dressed wrote: »

I think you're being unfairly presumptuous. You can't look back in retrospect at these games with carefully framed comments like ''just a kick of a ball'' and ''if we'd been paying more attention''.

I agree, when I look back i remember Dublin in replays against Tyrone, Kerry and being beaten by a point by Armagh, yet the general consensus here would be that Dublin were either "over hyped", "rubbish" "bottlers" etc.

They lost those games no point in going over it that much IMHO as there can only be one winner, Armagh have one AI, that is all they have and its possibly best to say that is all they deserve. That Kerry team have more and deserve them all, Tyrone have three, a nice amount but that's all they deserve too. Every team that wins an AI deserves it, no such thing as half an AI, if my team was not good enough and beaten by a point, the same should go for you (no one in particular in mind here). Many teams these days are beaten twice before they leave the championship, but the excuses still flow, for example Kildare, how many times do we hear about how they never lost a qualifier match like that is a fantastic achievement. I'm sure most Kildare supporters and players would exchange a provincial medal for that stat. When you are beaten you are beaten a point might as well be ten points, nobody cares except people in your own county.

That's my sad depressing take on it anyway, I'm including my own County supporters in all that too.

For me the thing about northern teams is that they have had a better spread of winners over the last 20 or so years, a lot of people remember that, I know that people have talked that down and equated it to only three counties, but I dont consider myself an old boy yet i remember great Down teams and Derry teams winning AIs, I don't think the same could be said for Munster or Leinster

DDC1990

Just on the point of injuries.

Kerry dealt with them quite well in 04, winning the AIF with Kirby (who was past it by a few years) and Brosnan (who was a decent Center Forward but nothing more) at midfield due to injuries.

Also Seámus Moynihan and MF Russell were only fit to start from the bench.

Injuries are only a problem if your squad isn't deep enough to cover it.

gaelic cowboy

Stoner wrote: »

For me the thing about northern teams is that they have had a better spread of winners over the last 20 or so years, a lot of people remember that, I know that people have talked that down and equated it to only three counties, but I dont consider myself an old boy yet i remember great Down teams and Derry teams winning AIs, I don't think the same could be said for Munster or Leinster

There was a difference in both style and substance between the Down, Derry and Donegal teams of the early to mid 90s and the Tyrone and Armagh teams of the late 90s and 00s.

Armagh deserved there AI but they were at the end of a long run and were seen as bottlers while Tyrone had been given similar plaudits an people were talking about Canavan being one of the best players never to win an AI.

It would be fair to say in a way they are almost different systems from the early 90s teams from the late 90s-00s teams however it's not true that they reinvented the wheel or something.

Basically if you think Ulster has changed football forever then you are falling hook line and sinker for media hype.

lala88

DDC1990 wrote: »

Just on the point of injuries.

Kerry dealt with them quite well in 04, winning the AIF with Kirby (who was past it by a few years) and Brosnan (who was a decent Center Forward but nothing more) at midfield due to injuries.

Also Seámus Moynihan and MF Russell were only fit to start from the bench.

Injuries are only a problem if your squad isn't deep enough to cover it.

Or if you need an excuse, unless of course your Kerry then its different

Stoner

gaelic cowboy wrote: »

It would be fair to say in a they are almost different systems from the early 90s teams from the late 90s-00s teams however it's not true that they reinvented the wheel or something.

Basically if you think Ulster has changed football forever then you are falling hook line and sinker for media hype.

you could also make the point that they very system that spreads the wins out actually develops AI winning teams, Ulster is difficult to get out of, but when you do , it's looking good after that. I do think they have shaped a lot of what we see now though. You are correct not Down or Derry or the 92 Donegal team, but certainly Armagh and Tyrone have a huge impact on what we see today. Look at how much Dublin and Mayo have changed their "traditional" style of play. Mayo in particular have done it in the space of 9 months.
I also think Laois will surprise a few people next year. Kildare are now viewed as a "Nothern Style" team. Meath had a go of it this year too with some level of success and they are another county with their own unique style of play. The Northern managers are getting around, so I know the OP relates to Northern Teams being Over hyped, I dont think so, I'm not any more concerned about them than the top counties around, but the style has definitely shaped what we are seeing on the pitches IMHO.
I don't particularly like the style that Dublin have been playing since 2010, but I didn't like loosing up to that either, and last years win was not pretty but it felt very good, and to stress a point from my precious post, we have Kerry sore about loosing by a point and Donegal thinking they left it behind them in the Semi, things are tight these days, and for every win it seems you need a few games that you think you left behind in the tank to motivate teams over the line.

So IMHO they are not over hyped but at least three of the four remaining teams in the championship are going to play like a northern team in their next match.

gaelic cowboy

Stoner wrote: »

you could also make the point that they very system that spreads the wins out actually develops AI winning teams, Ulster is difficult to get out of, but when you do , it's looking good after that. I do think they have shaped a lot of what we see now though. You are correct not Down or Derry or the 92 Donegal team, but certainly Armagh and Tyrone have a huge impact on what we see today. Look at how much Dublin and Mayo have changed their "traditional" style of play. Mayo in particular have done it in the space of 9 months.
I also think Laois will surprise a few people next year. Kildare are now viewed as a "Nothern Style" team. Meath had a go of it this year too with some level of success and they are another county with their own unique style of play. The Northern managers are getting around, so I know the OP relates to Northern Teams being Over hyped, I dont think so, I'm not any more concerned about them than the top counties around, but the style has definitely shaped what we are seeing on the pitches IMHO.
I don't particularly like the style that Dublin have been playing since 2010, but I didn't like loosing up to that either, and last years win was not pretty but it felt very good, and to stress a point from my precious post, we have Kerry sore about loosing by a point and Donegal thinking they left it behind them in the Semi, things are tight these days, and for every win it seems you need a few games that you think you left behind in the tank to motivate teams over the line.

So IMHO they are not over hyped but at least three of the four remaining teams in the championship are going to play like a northern team in their next match.

For me the the over-hype is the line in the media and from certain sections of the GAA that somehow the borg collective has arrived and changed football.

It's hardly a massive sea change if only 2 teams can win an Ulster title for well over a decade, if Ulster was such a force then the rest of ulster for the last 10-15yrs were going nowhere. For me much of the hype was about the defensive system which was termed as Ulster football however the reality is that twas really Tyrone/Armagh.

Now to the idea that Ulster has came up with a new system I dont think this really stacks up to be honest.

Possesion football was resident in Kildare in the early 90s under Mick O'Dwyer however everyone was doing it at the time as people were more and more giving out about handpassing. Also in the mid 90s the emphasis was on fitness running defense etc etc as evidence I produce any John Maughan team he ever managed, in a sense he sort of had a Northern system before it was called a Northern football he even had an extra man in the middle.

Armagh could then be said to have picked up on these trends and introduced a bit more defensiveness which could be seen in there tendancy to try and hold slender leads. This tendancy cost Armagh a lot of games in the late 90s and very early 00s so we can take it that the system wasn't perfect, the imperfection was an inability to score a problem they shared with Dublin and Mayo at the time.

Tyrone of course did have great footballers who could score and they picked up this trend in possesion football which now had an added element of packing the middle this helped Tyrone win there AI's.

Now to the new Dubs, Mayo, Cork, and Donegal teams these are all variations on the same theme which has reached the ultimate expression of defensiveness in Donegal but the seeds were there before as essentially these are generally the same players for the last 4-5yrs but only in last 2-3 have they knuckled down. I would say much of there emphasis on defensiveness and keeping possesion was first born from a desire to overcome shortcommings in forward talent but later became a necessity to negate teams like Kerry.

Basically to sum up I would say much of the so called Ulster system has merely been an aggregation of styles which has quite naturally resulted in the evolution of Donegal. Now you could say that Donegal are a new system as they have essentially dropped the empahsis on possession and instead concentrated on stopping scores. However like all highly specialist creatures they are vulnerable to changes in the eco-system, any team who can score with long range points would slaughter Donegal but the last 10-15yrs has discouraged this tactic as it was seen as throwing away possession.

Can Donegal win an AI yes they can win but Ulster has not changed football, and as for Donegal they have changed football but I cannot see the system of intense defensiveness lasting another 2yr as people will have had time to adapt by then.

jimbo79

elguapo wrote: »

Well, if we take the 00s in their entirety, Kerry lost to the following teams in knockout situations: Tyrone, Armagh, Meath. That's it. They beat every team worth mentioning bar Tyrone. They reached 8 All-Ireland finals.They won 5 of them.

Tyrone reached 3 All-Ireland finals, and won the 3. However, they were beaten in knockout situations by Armagh, Derry, Sligo, Mayo, Laois, Meath and Cork.

Team of the decade is subjective, obviously, but you can't just say, "well Tyrone beat better teams, end of story".

Tyrone had the upper hand against Kerry, but Kerry were only beaten by great teams, Tyrone failed tests against supposedly weaker teams on many occasions.

You're entitled to your opinion, but you've oversimplified the debate to suit your own ends.

you seem to look at it from the viewpoint of who beat them rather than who did they beat, im not sure how that gives you the best team, i would see the 04 and 06 all irelands as easily won due to the usual mayo collapse, without doubt kerry had some great win, dublin in 09 was one of these especially considering how poorly they had played against longford sligo and antrim.

if i was judging any team or individual from any sport i would look at who they beat and when it come down to the quality of opposition either tyrone or kerry beat tyrone wins this

Neeson

An article in today's independent asking why does everyone hate Donegal do much. It then goes on to talk about the hatred for other northern teams (ulster that is!) after they win an all Ireland the critics usually find something up with their game. But never with the likes of Kerry.

jimbo79

Neeson wrote: »

An article in today's independent asking why does everyone hate Donegal do much. It then goes on to talk about the hatred for other northern teams (ulster that is!) after they win an all Ireland the critics usually find something up with their game. But never with the likes of Kerry.

must have a look at that.

kerry in last years all ireland were very negative i had a good vantage point from the upper deck and at times in the 2nd half they had only two players up front, i saw their league game against armagh this year and some of their tackling was disgraceful

Smartly Dressed

Neeson wrote: »

An article in today's independent asking why does everyone hate Donegal do much. It then goes on to talk about the hatred for other northern teams (ulster that is!) after they win an all Ireland the critics usually find something up with their game. But never with the likes of Kerry.

Is this the article?

Here's an interesting view from Jack O'Connor [via article linked].

"There's an arrogance to northern football which rubs Kerry people up the wrong way. They're flash and nouveau riche and full of it," he wrote. "Add up the number of All-Ireland titles the Ulster counties have and it's less than a third of Kerry's total but northern teams advertise themselves well. They talk about how they did it, they go on and on about this theory and that practice as if they'd just split the atom."

Who among the top Ulster managers have ever ''gone on'' about theory in an arrogant way? This again goes back to listening to people like Joe Brolly who are ultimately just empty entertainment rather than credible analysts with a high football IQ. I think it's pretty obvious that Kerry get very irritated when teams play to their own strengths.

The idea that Kerry's style is the only way to play and anything else is bad for the game is quite frankly, embarrassing.

Neeson

That's part of the article. There was another main bit with it too.

Stoner

Smartly Dressed wrote: »

The idea that Kerry's style is the only way to play and anything else is bad for the game is quite frankly, embarrassing.

I would agree here to a degree, Kerry have had some fantastic teams, but the odd Kerry article you read when they are beaten will usually center around the best team on the day won or the other team were more intense, or the other team were fitter, the idea being that on any other day, or if we were as intense , or if we were as fit that Kerry would have won, it does take away from the other teams victory instead of just saying well done, congratulations.
That said they do produce great natural footballers, but the game these days calls for the fittest players who fit into a team and are focused and intense. that would possibly be the same for most sports where science is applied and the takes us beyond natural talent.
But we have known that for some time now, it's a fact of life and if a management team does not deal with in some way then they have to take the blame when they are beaten.

elguapo

jimbo79 wrote: »

you seem to look at it from the viewpoint of who beat them rather than who did they beat, im not sure how that gives you the best team, i would see the 04 and 06 all irelands as easily won due to the usual mayo collapse, without doubt kerry had some great win, dublin in 09 was one of these especially considering how poorly they had played against longford sligo and antrim.

if i was judging any team or individual from any sport i would look at who they beat and when it come down to the quality of opposition either tyrone or kerry beat tyrone wins this

I think it's important to look at both who they beat and who they lost to, gives you a more complete picture. I'm also sick of the "easily won" All-Irelands, as if the final was the only game played all year.

Anyway, we have different ways of looking at it, that's grand.

lala88

jimbo79 wrote: »

you seem to look at it from the viewpoint of who beat them rather than who did they beat, im not sure how that gives you the best team, i would see the 04 and 06 all irelands as easily won due to the usual mayo collapse, without doubt kerry had some great win, dublin in 09 was one of these especially considering how poorly they had played against longford sligo and antrim.

if i was judging any team or individual from any sport i would look at who they beat and when it come down to the quality of opposition either tyrone or kerry beat tyrone wins this

Cork beat Kerry more then any other team over the last 10 years and also beat Tyrone so would that not mean there better then Tyrone?

jimbo79

lala88 wrote: »

Cork beat Kerry more then any other team over the last 10 years and also beat Tyrone so would that not mean there better then Tyrone?

cork were better than tyrone in 09, as far as i can remember that was there only meeting in recent times anyway, cork are the stand out team at the moment if as i expect them to do so they win the all ireland they will unquestionably be the best team of the last few years

jimbo79

elguapo wrote: »

I think it's important to look at both who they beat and who they lost to, gives you a more complete picture. I'm also sick of the "easily won" All-Irelands, as if the final was the only game played all year.

Anyway, we have different ways of looking at it, that's grand.

it is important to look at both, it's also important to note that 03 was tyrone's first all ireland at senior level, kerry have owned many decades, im happy enough to leave the last one to tyrone

K-9

gaelic cowboy wrote: »

From 1999-2012 only Tyrone, Armagh and Donegal have won in Ulster with 7 Armagh 5 Tyrone 2 Donegal.

Which is exactly the same in Ulster as all the other provinces where 2 or 3 teams carve it up between them.

That's true but all 9 counties got to an Ulster Final in that period which is a better reflection, that most definitely isn't the same as the other provinces.

lala88

K-9 wrote: »

That's true but all 9 counties got to an Ulster Final in that period which is a better reflection, that most definitely isn't the same as the other provinces.

Every county bar Waterford got to a Munster final in that time as far as i remember. Also every team in Connacht made it to the final and all bar Leitrim won it. Going by that there is no real difference is there?

K-9

lala88 wrote: »

Every county bar Waterford got to a Munster final in that time as far as i remember. Also every team in Connacht made it to the final and all bar Leitrim won it. Going by that there is no real difference is there?

Well I'd consider 9/9 greater than 5/5 or 5/6 (London or NY excepted), especially when compared to Leinster a closer sample size, plus Ulster had the greater spread of teams reaching Q/F's and S/F's which would be the true test. 7 out of the 9 did that despite the smaller spread of championship winners, so yes, there is a real difference there.

MaroonAndGreen

I think there ar alot of Ulster teams possibly over hyped..

but no where near as bad as the over hyping of Kildare has been. Hopefully that nonsense will stop now after their hammering against Cork...

tayto lover

MaroonAndGreen wrote: »

I think there ar alot of Ulster teams possibly over hyped..

but no where near as bad as the over hyping of Kildare has been. Hopefully that nonsense will stop now after their hammering against Cork...

Teams winning Ulster have had at least three battles. Ulster is tight and usually physical. On any given day any team can be a match for any other. In Munster you only really have one battle to win.

ciarriaithuaidh

Stoner wrote: »

I would agree here to a degree, Kerry have had some fantastic teams, but the odd Kerry article you read when they are beaten will usually center around the best team on the day won or the other team were more intense, or the other team were fitter, the idea being that on any other day, or if we were as intense , or if we were as fit that Kerry would have won, it does take away from the other teams victory instead of just saying well done, congratulations.
That said they do produce great natural footballers, but the game these days calls for the fittest players who fit into a team and are focused and intense. that would possibly be the same for most sports where science is applied and the takes us beyond natural talent.
But we have known that for some time now, it's a fact of life and if a management team does not deal with in some way then they have to take the blame when they are beaten.

Not sure what you mean by "Kerry article"..do you mean the articles by ex-Kerry players in national papers, or actual articles by the Kerryman etc down in Kerry?
Regarding the defeats in big games in recent years that Kerry have endured, namely 2005 final, 2008 final, 2010 1/4 final, 2011 final...
Tyrone in 2005 were most certainly the better team and any article I saw from a Kerry source acknowledged that. (2005 remains the best final I've seen in my time btw.).
2008 final is most sickening defeat I've experienced as a Kerry supporter..IMO (and lots of the media after that game reflected this also) we had the team to win that game, but didn't for many reasons. When push came to shove in the last 10 mins that day though, Tyrone went and won the game, can't say they didn't deserve it.
2010 1/4 final, again, heard no suggestion that Down did not deserve the win as they were quite clearly superior on the day.
2011 final..still pretty raw for me. I am biased, but don't think I'm stretching the imagination to say its a game we should have won. If any Kerry people who wrote articles after that game felt as sickened as I did, I'm sure their words might have seemed bitter to some..but again, in hindsight, once Dublin got the goal, they really had more energy and finished stronger that day. Cluxton kicked a huge free under pressure and Dublin won.
In summary, I just disagree with what you seem to be suggesting, that Kerry people are less than gracious in defeat..I think that there are more ex-Kerry players in the media than any other county and sometimes a throwaway comment in an article is mis-interpreted as the opinion of an entire county. Look how much mileage Spillane has got out of "puke-football", 9 years on!

Stoner

ciarriaithuaidh wrote: »

I just disagree with what you seem to be suggesting, that Kerry people are less than gracious in defeat..I think that there are more ex-Kerry players in the media than any other county and sometimes a throwaway comment in an article is mis-interpreted as the opinion of an entire county. Look how much mileage Spillane has got out of "puke-football", 9 years on!

I did say the odd article. The goal that Dublin scored in the final last year was generated by footballing skilll, from a player that was held back from starting a game because of the impact he has at the end of games, it was a strategy. The continued analysis of last years game is, 4 points up with 20 minutes to go, why not look at the game at half time, or full time or 5 minutes to go? Or is the term surviving the purple patch out the window.

After the game Spillane "Dublin were the better team on the day"
On the run up to the game "if Dublin win this year every team in the country will have to start 6am training sessions" In fact look at your point, you gave Dublin some credit, but look at your finish "and finished stronger that day" My point was that when Kerry loose some of the articles you read drag up points that the other team were better on the day, were fitter or more intense. They are correct comments but the came about due to hard work, not luck.
I know what it's like being beaten by a point, or a wonder point resulting in a replay:). These things happen and for every AI there are a number of teams who feel that way, but last year Dublin played Kerry and beat them fair and square. The year before Dublin were up against Cork with 20 minutes to go and ended up being beaten by a point, by the better team. Dublin faded and Cork won they had a plan and stuck to it. Cork did not win because Dublin were not fit enough to keep the intensity going for the whole game. Cork had a plan stuck to it and were better prepared.

I never said that Kerry people are less than gracious in defeat, you brought the Kerry people into it I said the odd article, Jack O'Connor up to last month would claim "we left that one behind us" my point is that Kerry have won plenty of AIs enough to leave room to say well done congratulations.

Tomas O Se giving the game ball to Cluxton after the final whistle last year was a fantastic example of sportsmanship and class. I'll always remember him as a sporting great for his ability and attitude.

There is always analysis about how fit teams are, if Northern teams used fitness and intensity to win games so be it, it should not take from your win because it was achieved through planning and conditioning and these attributes are not something that every player has.

In my own summary, Kerry have had fantastic teams and still do, and deserve every AI they won. Some articles in the papers would leave you thinking that when Kerry loose that it is to footballs overall downfall. To some degree I agree with that, I've seen my own county play less attractive football now than before. Comments like the best team on the day, or we were beaten by a fitter team leave the suggestion that the result was lucky or that fitness is easy to improve. How about instead of someone finished stronger or was fitter that we could say the other team was better prepared and trained harder this year, and next year we have to go a step further, or it will happen again.

Flukey

lala88 wrote: »

Tyrone were being pushed by the media as team of the decade.

I think that had to do with the fact that they were the team of the decade. Anyway, one reason Ulster teams are pushed forward is that they are not traditional counties, in the way some of the others are. They have no history and have come from a lower base. There is also the factor that despite their being an All-Ireland, there is still the them and us, with Ulster and the rest of Ireland, with Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal being thrown in with the "them", despite the politics. They 6 counties have overcome pressures because of politics. No Ulster team won the All-Ireland between Down's 1968 and 1991 wins. Although Connacht went from 1966 to 1998, Galway's two victories, it was a barren spell for Ulster and they had different pressures. Even going training could be a danger in itself. So it has been a big thing for the Ulster teams to come through and win All-Irelands with new counties, and to stay at or near the top table and put it up to the big traditional powers. Other than Galway, Connacht has to go back to Mayo in 1951, and I don't think that is going to change this year.

Some of the rest of the country always has that little inferior complex when they come up against the big powers, but Ulster teams don't. The likes of Kerry do not go in with the same confidence against Ulster teams as they do against other teams. They have never beaten Down in the championship, and others have good records against them. Even when Kerry come up against the big powers from the rest of the country, they have more confidence. They spent the first half of the last decade, almost obsessively trying to throw that Ulster monkey off their back, and it didn't happen until Kieran Donaghy turned Francie Bellew in the quarter final against Armagh, and going on to defeat them. They could not get the Tyrone monkey off their back during that decade. Even Meath's humiliation of them in 2001 didn't seem to hurt as much as those Ulster defeats. So for Kerry, and other big powers in the three provinces, Ulster teams do come with a different air to them that troubles the other teams, and they are not as used to playing them or them putting it up to theartially because of the 1968 - 1991 lull when Connacht and Ulster teams were seen as a pushover, though problems with Ulster teams predates that by a long time.

Pride Fighter

Since the introduction of the backdoor, 7 of Ulsters 9 counties have made an all Ireland quarter final at the very least. No other province has that kind of depth in it. Northern teams are not overhyped, they are amongst the best in Ireland on a consistent basis over the past 10 years.

Tom Joad

I think that Donegal's achievements today may have put this one to bed. :cool:

lala88

Tom Joad wrote: »

I think that Donegal's achievements today may have put this one to bed. :cool:

They didnt won anything yet