how 'bankrupt' are the bankrupts?

digzy

we've all seen tha bankrupts over the past few months, mcfeehily, sean quinn, sean fitz etc....

being a dumbo i thought this meant that all their assets/ savings were used to pay their creditors, who had to take the hit on the shortfall....fair enough.

However, i'm baffled when we see sean fitz golfing flying back from the usa on business, mcfeehily over in portugal, quinn cant be paying his lawyers fresh air, dunne is after turning a tidy profit flogging property in the us, and drumm aint exactly on his knees either.

while i dont expect them in 'sackcloth and ashes' whats going on? have they hoodwinked their creditors, they've transferred to their wives maybe?

bbam

digzy wrote: »

we've all seen tha bankrupts over the past few months, mcfeehily, sean quinn, sean fitz etc....

being a dumbo i thought this meant that all their assets/ savings were used to pay their creditors, who had to take the hit on the shortfall....fair enough.

However, i'm baffled when we see sean fitz golfing flying back from the usa on business, mcfeehily over in portugal, quinn cant be paying his lawyers fresh air, dunne is after turning a tidy profit flogging property in the us, and drumm aint exactly on his knees either.

while i dont expect them in 'sackcloth and ashes' whats going on? have they hoodwinked their creditors, they've transferred to their wives maybe?

I'd love to be as bankrupt as the Quinns !!
€30K a month for the family to live on... it must be tough !!

NIMAN

I say these folk will never have to worry about the price of home heating oil, petrol, food, childcare.

TheTurk1972

Dont forget the Ministers and TDs pensions that Ivan Yates has for income. Yet he is trying to become bankrupt.

liammur

TheTurk1972 wrote: »

Dont forget the Ministers and TDs pensions that Ivan Yates has for income. Yet he is trying to become bankrupt.

LOL.

He is prepared to sell the family farm, and give the bank a % of his future income. What more can he do?

Cheerful Spring

digzy wrote: »

we've all seen tha bankrupts over the past few months, mcfeehily, sean quinn, sean fitz etc....

being a dumbo i thought this meant that all their assets/ savings were used to pay their creditors, who had to take the hit on the shortfall....fair enough.

However, i'm baffled when we see sean fitz golfing flying back from the usa on business, mcfeehily over in portugal, quinn cant be paying his lawyers fresh air, dunne is after turning a tidy profit flogging property in the us, and drumm aint exactly on his knees either.

while i dont expect them in 'sackcloth and ashes' whats going on? have they hoodwinked their creditors, they've transferred to their wives maybe?

The wealthy have offshore accounts in places were nobody can touch their cash. Its naive to think they kept their money in their country of origin.

TheTurk1972

liammur wrote: »

LOL.

He is prepared to sell the family farm, and give the bank a % of his future income. What more can he do?

Not quite true.
The family farm is not worth near what he owes and its not available to the bank for some time to come.
And what % of his income has he offered? Not much probably.

Hes saying i'll gladly pay you next Tuesday for a hamburger today.

liammur

TheTurk1972 wrote: »

Not quite true.
The family farm is not worth near what he owes and its not available to the bank for some time to come.
And what % of his income has he offered? Not much probably.

Hes saying i'll gladly pay you next Tuesday for a hamburger today.

I don't think he nor indeed did I ever said the family farm is worth what he owes. What has been proven by the court however, is that he has offered AIB more than if he were made bankrupt.

TheTurk1972

liammur wrote: »

I don't think he nor indeed did I ever said the family farm is worth what he owes. What has been proven by the court however, is that he has offered AIB more than if he were made bankrupt.

Not it hasnt been proved.
Its what he said, not proved.
If you think about it he has offered them nothing.
And its convenient that AIB are not allowed to comment on it themselves.
He's just buying time so he can go the whole hog in the UK. And keep his pensions intact.

liammur

TheTurk1972 wrote: »

Not it hasnt been proved.
Its what he said, not proved.
If you think about it he has offered them nothing.
And its convenient that AIB are not allowed to comment on it themselves.
He's just buying time so he can go the whole hog in the UK. And keep his pensions intact.

The bank have ZERO entitlements to his pensions under law. You cannot write the law. Neither can AIB. This is what people have to remember.
___

The court papers reveal that Mr Yates offered to hand AIB the proceeds of a sale of his family farm on the outskirts of Enniscorthy, Co Wexford, once worth €25m, plus a share of his future income, if the bank agreed to settle its claim.

The bank turned down the offer, even though it is a better deal than can be recovered if he is made bankrupt, the court papers claim.'

TheTurk1972

liammur wrote: »

The bank have ZERO entitlements to his pensions under law. You cannot write the law. Neither can AIB. This is what people have to remember.
___

The court papers reveal that Mr Yates offered to hand AIB the proceeds of a sale of his family farm on the outskirts of Enniscorthy, Co Wexford, once worth €25m, plus a share of his future income, if the bank agreed to settle its claim.

The bank turned down the offer, even though it is a better deal than can be recovered if he is made bankrupt, the court papers claim.'

You cant take his pension but it is an income.
And it was Yates who said it was a better deal, not the courts.
We actually dont know if it was. Obviously AIB dont think it is.

liammur

TheTurk1972 wrote: »

You cant take his pension but it is an income.
And it was Yates who said it was a better deal, not the courts.
We actually dont know if it was. Obviously AIB dont think it is.

Of course it's an income, that's my whole point.

The only asset AIB can take off Yates is the family farm. They are an inept bank. They gave him far too much money for a business that was failing. They have cost the taxpayer upwards of €20bln and they still don't appear to realise by making Yates bankrupt will not get the money back. It's gone.

However, maybe they should pursue some developers with the same gusto. Again, this is probably beyond them.

christmas2012

they still have plenty of assets that arent touched thats probably how they are still afloat with their little luxuries..

TheChizler

In fairness they'd be mad to not try to keep some money hidden. Very few people go honestly bankrupt.

TheTurk1972

liammur wrote: »

Of course it's an income, that's my whole point.

The only asset AIB can take off Yates is the family farm. They are an inept bank. They gave him far too much money for a business that was failing. They have cost the taxpayer upwards of €20bln and they still don't appear to realise by making Yates bankrupt will not get the money back. It's gone.

However, maybe they should pursue some developers with the same gusto. Again, this is probably beyond them.

While he has an income he can pay. His plan is to go bankrupt, pass the required time, then go back again to earning loadsamoney that cant be touched.
AIB know this. If he cant get bankrupt because he has a good income and can service at least some of his debts, then they just have to wait til he starts earning again.
Unless they fall for his story in the UK.
I'm sure AIB can get the boot in there too.

liammur

TheTurk1972 wrote: »

While he has an income he can pay. His plan is to go bankrupt, pass the required time, then go back again to earning loadsamoney that cant be touched.
AIB know this. If he cant get bankrupt because he has a good income and can service at least some of his debts, then they just have to wait til he starts earning again.
Unless they fall for his story in the UK.
I'm sure AIB can get the boot in there too.

Unfortunately, you are all muddled up and confused.

It's AIB who want him declared bankrupt. Remember that now.

Once he is bankrupt, the very most AIB can get is the family farm.

This is why AIB are failing the taxpayer.

__

The High Court has dismissed an application by AIB to have former Fine Gael Minister and broadcaster Ivan Yates declared bankrupt.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0821/aib-application-to-make-yates-bankrupt-dismissed-business.html

martingriff

TheTurk1972 wrote: »

Dont forget the Ministers and TDs pensions that Ivan Yates has for income. Yet he is trying to become bankrupt.

That will be taken i am assuming for the period he is bankrupt. Though I do feel sorry for Yates as he had a credible plan to give to the banks that they have refused now what will they get

NIMAN

Answer me this one, what happens if someone declares themselves bust, then after their time is up suddenly show signs of having a lot of wealth, perhaps showing that they were hiding some assets somehow.

Can they then be chased for this money or have it taken off them, or are they off scot-free and nothing legally can be done?

Laminations

liammur wrote: »

I don't think he nor indeed did I ever said the family farm is worth what he owes. What has been proven by the court however, is that he has offered AIB more than if he were made bankrupt.

Wel that says more about the state of our bankruptcy process that you can offer more than would be taken off you to pay creditors.

Laminations

Also the Yates case isn't as clear cut as you make out. If the bankruptcy is a bad deal for the taxpayer, that means it must be a good deal for Yates. Then why is he fighting it?

martingriff

Laminations wrote: »

Also the Yates case isn't as clear cut as you make out. If the bankruptcy is a bad deal for the taxpayer, that means it must be a good deal for Yates. Then why is he fighting it?

As he was hoping not to go bankrupt and pay all he owes I know its a foreign thing for a politican to do. The strange thing is if he had not become a personal guarantor for Celtic Bookmakers there would have been crap the bank could have done.

CruelCoin

digzy wrote: »

we've all seen tha bankrupts over the past few months, mcfeehily, sean quinn, sean fitz etc....

being a dumbo i thought this meant that all their assets/ savings were used to pay their creditors, who had to take the hit on the shortfall....fair enough.

However, i'm baffled when we see sean fitz golfing flying back from the usa on business, mcfeehily over in portugal, quinn cant be paying his lawyers fresh air, dunne is after turning a tidy profit flogging property in the us, and drumm aint exactly on his knees either.

while i dont expect them in 'sackcloth and ashes' whats going on? have they hoodwinked their creditors, they've transferred to their wives maybe?

You need to understand that there are several ways to protect yourself.

One example: You buy land and set up a company. Company rents the land off you. If the company ever goes bust, you still personally own the land! It is easyily done to have a company not own anything itself, but rather just rent everything off you. If the company goes bust, all you have to do is get a relative set up a new company (its only a piece of paper after all) and rent the land and buildings off you once more.

Being bankrupt is not so simple as being totally bust.

All of your above examples have only had their business go bust, but their own personal fortunes are unaffected.

[Jackass]

Jeez :rolleyes:

The thread title is how bankrupt are these people being declared bankrupt, when obviously each case is completely and entirely different.

In the case of the Quins, not at all. They are criminals who have moved assets around in an extremely complex manner, using holding companies, appointing family members as directors of companies that only exist on paper and paying them seven figure annual salaries for doing nothing. Purely to launder money out of the reach of the state and to avoid paying back a cent of what they owe.

They have conducted criminal fraud and deserve 10+ years in prison. At the moment the only charge is on contempt of court for not obeying orders to stop, but I would hope that the actions, once regarded as evasive concealment, will result in criminal convictions and lengthy prison sentence for all involved in the Quin family and for CAB to become involved to recover more of the hundreds of millions the Quins owe but have put out of reach.

The insider trading to inflate the share price of Anglo is another example of corporate fraud which will also hopefully result in a lengthy prison sentence.

Ivan Yeates is very different, he, like a massive amount of people in this country, is not a financial expert or Economist, but took advantage of the banks reckless lending practices in giving away money at any risk and using an inflated Economy as collateral and he got caught badly. He has made a genuine and sincere attempt to repay the monies owed by coming to an arrangement with the bank, but they are refusing to agree to his terms, for what he says are vindictive reasons to ruin him because of his outspoken nature on the running of the banks.

He is fighting his bankruptcy in Ireland because as stated, he feels it's an unjust move to ruin him and he wants to be declared bankrupt in the UK, where the consequences are more lienient. He has offered his only asset, an inheritance of a family farm, and his only source of income, a pension, as measures to resolve the debt.

McFeely I'm not entirely sure about. He has been evicted from his Ailesbury Road home though, so presumably he is being stripped of assets, but I don't know what shape he is in otherwise. Regardless of his financial health though, he is another who should face criminal prosecution for the breach of several building codes and regulations and selling completely sub-par death traps for hundreds of millions during the boom, cutting costs at every corner, even using pyrite amongst ignoring of codes and standards.

liammur

[Jackass] wrote: »

Jeez :rolleyes:

The thread title is how bankrupt are these people being declared bankrupt, when obviously each case is completely and entirely different.

In the case of the Quins, not at all. They are criminals who have moved assets around in an extremely complex manner, using holding companies, appointing family members as directors of companies that only exist on paper and paying them seven figure annual salaries for doing nothing. Purely to launder money out of the reach of the state and to avoid paying back a cent of what they owe.

They have conducted criminal fraud and deserve 10+ years in prison. At the moment the only charge is on contempt of court for not obeying orders to stop, but I would hope that the actions, once regarded as evasive concealment, will result in criminal convictions and lengthy prison sentence for all involved in the Quin family and for CAB to become involved to recover more of the hundreds of millions the Quins owe but have put out of reach.

The insider trading to inflate the share price of Anglo is another example of corporate fraud which will also hopefully result in a lengthy prison sentence.

Ivan Yeates is very different, he, like a massive amount of people in this country, is not a financial expert or Economist, but took advantage of the banks reckless lending practices in giving away money at any risk and using an inflated Economy as collateral and he got caught badly. He has made a genuine and sincere attempt to repay the monies owed by coming to an arrangement with the bank, but they are refusing to agree to his terms, for what he says are vindictive reasons to ruin him because of his outspoken nature on the running of the banks.

He is fighting his bankruptcy in Ireland because as stated, he feels it's an unjust move to ruin him and he wants to be declared bankrupt in the UK, where the consequences are more lienient. He has offered his only asset, an inheritance of a family farm, and his only source of income, a pension, as measures to resolve the debt.

McFeely I'm not entirely sure about. He has been evicted from his Ailesbury Road home though, so presumably he is being stripped of assets, but I don't know what shape he is in otherwise. Regardless of his financial health though, he is another who should face criminal prosecution for the breach of several building codes and regulations and selling completely sub-par death traps for hundreds of millions during the boom, cutting costs at every corner, even using pyrite amongst ignoring of codes and standards.

A good post overall, but there was no insider trading in the shares. Think about it, he was buying shares that were completely worthless! It's what ruined him. He did break another law, non disclosure, certainly not as severe as insider trading.

Pottler

How broke? Not very. I've a mate, big in the boom, bankrupt now. How broke? Not very, still driving good car, nice home, decent clothes, holidays, etc etc. The definition of "broke due to bankruptcy" appears to be fairly elastic. Some peoples "broke" would be an average persons idea of the lap of luxury.:(

Cheerful Spring

Wealthy know you never keep your wealth in one place. In case you lose it all. They have money nobody knows about.

Cheerful Spring

This country is full of corrupt people. For god sake Bertie Ahern the prime minister of this country had no bank accounts allegedly. Figure that one out. When you get to the level of the Quinn's you be naive believing they've disclosed everything. And the state will punish them for lying. Ireland is corrupt nothing has changed . Same people who caused the economic mess have moved from one job to the next. Not one has been fired.

flutered

TheTurk1972 wrote: »

Dont forget the Ministers and TDs pensions that Ivan Yates has for income. Yet he is trying to become bankrupt.

did he not do so in wales recently.

rubadubduba

digzy wrote: »

we've all seen tha bankrupts over the past few months, mcfeehily, sean quinn, sean fitz etc....

being a dumbo i thought this meant that all their assets/ savings were used to pay their creditors, who had to take the hit on the shortfall....fair enough.

However, i'm baffled when we see sean fitz golfing flying back from the usa on business, mcfeehily over in portugal, quinn cant be paying his lawyers fresh air, dunne is after turning a tidy profit flogging property in the us, and drumm aint exactly on his knees either.

while i dont expect them in 'sackcloth and ashes' whats going on? have they hoodwinked their creditors, they've transferred to their wives maybe?

These are only the ones who got found out, what about their buddies the quite ones who lined their pockets on the back these scum.
How come we never hear of them.

ANXIOUS

liammur wrote: »

A good post overall, but there was no insider trading in the shares. Think about it, he was buying shares that were completely worthless! It's what ruined him. He did break another law, non disclosure, certainly not as severe as insider trading.

There was insider trading on the part of Anglo. They acted to lend money to keep there share price artificially high. Defrauding shareholders.

bbam

ANXIOUS wrote: »

There was insider trading on the part of Anglo. They acted to lend money to keep there share price artificially high. Defrauding shareholders.

Yes this is where Quinn made a huge mistake.
When the Anglo house of cards collapsed Seanie boy should have thrown his hands in the air and cried foul about the way Anglo were frauding him, he should have co operated with the authorities to hang out the Anglo head men.

Instead he stuck his heels in the ground and tried to bully his way through as has been his form in business. He really thought the Quinns were above being held accountable. We are all paying for his legacy and will do for decades. The sooner he pays with his freedom the better.