my builder and architect do not agree

harr

Hi
Hope i have the right place for this question if not feel free to move.

I am about to start a small kitchen extension about 19qm,i got an architect to do some plans for us which cost 600 quid but we want it done right.We are using a local builder which our family has used for a long and he is clean and the work is good.
The problem we are having is the architect and builder cant agree on building out from boundary wall or knocking it and rebuilding as part of the new extension,we live in a 3 bed semi and the people next door are OK but we only know them to say hello to,and to be honest i would rather build say a foot out from the boundary wall but our architect is telling us this cant be done and it would just look brutal when finished as there would be a gap between the two walls.
I did get a few quotes from different builders a few did say they would rather build away from the boundary wall,its a high enough build i don't think the neighbor would be to happy with this newer taller wall.
So who is right...?

Sorry for the long post,but this has delayed the start of our build.:mad:

engineermike

harr wrote: »

Hi
Hope i have the right place for this question if not feel free to move.

I am about to start a small kitchen extension about 19qm,i got an architect to do some plans for us which cost 600 quid but we want it done right.We are using a local builder which our family has used for a long and he is clean and the work is good.
The problem we are having is the architect and builder cant agree on building out from boundary wall or knocking it and rebuilding as part of the new extension,we live in a 3 bed semi and the people next door are OK but we only know them to say hello to,and to be honest i would rather build say a foot out from the boundary wall but our architect is telling us this cant be done and it would just look brutal when finished as there would be a gap between the two walls.
I did get a few quotes from different builders a few did say they would rather build away from the boundary wall,its a high enough build i don't think the neighbor would be to happy with this newer taller wall.
So who is right...?

Sorry for the long post,but this has delayed the start of our build.:mad:

Hi OP,
- What is the architects reasoning as to why this cant be done, besides "looking brutal".?
- What is the reasoning behind the builder wanting to do it his way ?
There seems to me to be a couple of compromised solutions to the issue, but i don't know the design of your extension.
In any instance I'd start by having a chat with my neighbor and see if access would be an issue to partially reconstruct the wall.
mike f

harr

Well for the architect the problem is the gap between the two walls and that seems to be his main problem apart for that there is just a small bit of adjusting the measurements for the new roof,and it makes the build that bit smaller.

The builder would need to dig up some the next door garden and they have a deck and flower beds against the middle wall so it would bit of a job to put back right and also its a double apex roof and the builder is concerned that there is no guttering on that end the new roof is just coming down to meet the new wall in sort of a gully and there is a waste pipe from upstairs in that corner which would need to be moved plus there is a new kitchen going in and with the build the way the architect has it there is a lot lot more plumbing to be done.

muffler

Are you building this under the exempted development guidelines? This could be why your architect is insisting that it is kept away from the neighbouring property.

harr

Yep no planing permission needed,but it's the architect that wants to knock boundary wall and the builder wants to leave it and build about half a foot away .

BryanF

harr wrote: »

Yep no planing permission needed,but it's the architect that wants to knock boundary wall and the builder wants to leave it and build about half a foot away .

so whats the ACTUAL problem? the cost?

1. may i ask what did the builder price for?
2. i presume the architect gave tender drawings that reflected the boundary being demolished and re-built?I'm a little worried if the arch had not considered and detailed for roof drainage on your side of the boundary..
3. what is the actual extra cost of demolishing the wall?
4. and how agreeable is your neighbour?

harr

BryanF wrote: »

so whats the ACTUAL problem? the cost?

1. may i ask what did the builder price for?
2. i presume the architect gave tender drawings that reflected the boundary being demolished and re-built?I'm a little worried if the arch had not considered and detailed for roof drainage on your side of the boundary..
3. what is the actual extra cost of demolishing the wall?
4. and how agreeable is your neighbour?

I am just trying to find which one of them is right,the first set of plains looked ok to me till the builder pointed out the amount of work needed in next doors garden,the price was for the way the builder wants to build it and did not included the cost of knocking and rebuilding boundary wall.
The lack of drainage was mentioned by two of the builders i got to price the job.
I get on ok with neighbour but i don't know if he would be in favor of digging up part of his garden and some of his decking.
The architect stated that drainage should not be a problem if it is built correctly and by a decent builder.

BryanF

harr wrote: »

I am just trying to find which one of them is right

there is no 'right answer' just to opposing opinions - write a list of pros & cons and make a decision - I'm slightly concerned that you dont have a clear idea of what the extra cost is, and if this isn't the driver, what is?

harr

BryanF wrote: »

there is no 'right answer' just to opposing opinions - write a list of pros & cons and make a decision - I'm slightly concerned that you dont have a clear idea of what the extra cost is, and if this isn't the driver, what is?

Thanks for the reply,I have good idea what the extra cost might be as the other builders included it the quotes I got from them,there is not a huge difference in costings between the different builds.

BryanF

then go with the aesthetic considerations, if your builder has construction concerns your architect should be able to address them adequately

sky6

Hi, I have personally done extension both ways. In my opinion the best way is the Architects. Knock the party wall and build a new one. As a compromise you can tell your neighbor that he's free to build off the Wall at some time in the future if he wishes. It will look better and you won't have any issues in trying to the outside of the block work. If you leave a small gap between the two Walls you cannot plaster the outside and you will get moisture building up in the cavity. Trust your Architect he's the one with the building degree.

sydthebeat

im surprised the argument has gotten this far because your neighbour holds all the aces regarding the answer.

if your neighbour does not agree with the removal and making good of the boundary wall then your architects plans are void.

If the neighbour does agree to the removal and making good of the boundary wall then the architect option is best, as it gives best use of space with no leaf gathering alleys.

however, as youve said, the neighbour seems to have a nicely landscaped rear garden so you would have to pay for all that being put back to at least the existing standard. so ask your self, why would the neighbour agree to this?

ted1

It would be very unusual to build up to the boundary wall. Most people leave a space so that the neighbour has room to build.
The eaves and possible guttering would over hang there property.

harr

ted1 wrote: »

It would be very unusual to build up to the boundary wall. Most people leave a space so that the neighbour has room to build.
The eaves and possible guttering would over hang there property.

I know,the builder in question has said he has only ever done an extension where he has left a gap between walls so there would be room to plaster and but proper guttering and down pies and enough room for over hang.

sydthebeat

ii disaree, it is not unusual at all to build on the boundary with prior permission from the neighbour


no permission = no build simples

harr

sydthebeat wrote: »

im surprised the argument has gotten this far because your neighbour holds all the aces regarding the answer.

if your neighbour does not agree with the removal and making good of the boundary wall then your architects plans are void.

If the neighbour does agree to the removal and making good of the boundary wall then the architect option is best, as it gives best use of space with no leaf gathering alleys.

however, as youve said, the neighbour seems to have a nicely landscaped rear garden so you would have to pay for all that being put back to at least the existing standard. so ask your self, why would the neighbour agree to this?

The neighbour has only finished his garden in the last 6 months or so and has put a fair few quid into it and he also has two large dogs which has use of the garden so they would need to kept indoors while the work is done.
I will have a chat to my neighbour today but to be honest i dread asking him because its putting him in the position of having to say no to the wall.
Yes the architect ideas are the best looking and would suit us better,i do think at this stage we will have to move it all over half a foot from the boundary wall.
Anyone here have similar work done and if so what way did you position the new wall?

rayjdav

ted1 wrote: »

The eaves and possible guttering would over hang there property.

This is definitely NOT the case. In no case should overhanging be permitted. VERY bad practice.

Think Syd has answered the issue above, if neighbour is agreeable grand if not, there is no options.

harr

rayjdav wrote: »

This is definitely NOT the case. In no case should overhanging be permitted. VERY bad practice.

Think Syd has answered the issue above, if neighbour is agreeable grand if not, there is no options.

There would have not been any overhang on neighbour side ,he had the new roof coming down to meet new wall and a gully put in place,as the new wall is that bit higher from where roof meets it.

Penn

The simplest option is to build inside the boundary, then use PVC to close the gap between the wall of the extension and the boundary wall. You won't have to use a parapet detail on that side of the roof. The gap can be used for the down pipe from the roof and the PVC will close off the gap to prevent leaves etc gathering in the gap. With correct flashing details and a slope in the gap to let rainwater out, you also won't have to worry about water gathering the gap.

We've done it before on a few houses. Done right, there's no issue with it at all and it looks well.

Also, you could get away with a 200mm / 8inch gap providing the foundation detail is correct which would reduce the gap and help keep more of the space internally.

harr

Penn wrote: »

The simplest option is to build inside the boundary, then use PVC to close the gap between the wall of the extension and the boundary wall. You won't have to use a parapet detail on that side of the roof. The gap can be used for the down pipe from the roof and the PVC will close off the gap to prevent leaves etc gathering in the gap. With correct flashing details and a slope in the gap to let rainwater out, you also won't have to worry about water gathering the gap.

We've done it before on a few houses. Done right, there's no issue with it at all and it looks well.

Also, you could get away with a 200mm / 8inch gap providing the foundation detail is correct which would reduce the gap and help keep more of the space internally.

Thanks for this advice Penn i will put your ideas to the builder this morning.

sky6

Can someone explain how does he seal the outside of the Wall in the gap. Unless you can plaster the outside of the Wall you will get humidity and dampness. I've seen plastic being used as a damp proof membrane hung from under the Capping but it sweats and makes the problem worse.
Your Architect didn't spend 7 years in college for nothing. if you have your neighbours blessing then follow the architects advice that's what your paying him for. An extra day or so repairing the neighbours flower bed is nothing compared to the length of time you are going to be living there.

muffler

harr wrote: »

Yep no planing permission needed,but it's the architect that wants to knock boundary wall and the builder wants to leave it and build about half a foot away .

Sorry, I read your post in a bit of a hurry and picked it up wrong.

BryanF wrote: »

there is no 'right answer' just to opposing opinions - write a list of pros & cons and make a decision

Agreed.

ted1 wrote: »

It would be very unusual to build up to the boundary wall. Most people leave a space so that the neighbour has room to build.
The eaves and possible guttering would over hang there property.

Not unusual at all. Im not sure where you got that from.

archtech

A few comments;

Firstly your architect should have advised you to seek consent from you neighbour before s/he proceeded with his/her proposal to demolish and built on the boundary, it was a bit presumptuous on his/her behalf.

Secondly the builder should have priced what was proposed in the documentation you supplied to him, if he felt it wasn't going to work he could have included a price for his proposal as an alternative.

That said I've done extensions where the extension was set back from the existing boundary wall and where the extension was build as a boundary wall, subject to the adjoining neighbours agreement. My personal preference is the latter where it can be done, as you don't end up with any lost or dead space or potential areas for vermin/litter and you will be assured that the wall will be full rendered.

WUFF

If the existing boundry wall is demolished will a new footing have to be poured for the new build? This could mean digging up the existing concrete, have you got space to get a mini digger in to do this?
Make sure neighbour (and you) know whats involved or things could get messy!

harr

Thanks for all the replys,i spoke to neighbour and showed him the plans,he is a quiet sort of man and i knew by his reactions on seeing the plans he was a bit put off and was kind of embarrassed at asking negative questions regarding the boundary wall but he did say that he would be happier with the new wall staying inside the boundary wall.
So that's it, it will have to be built the way the builder recommended but now have to find a proper distance between the two walls,builder wants room enough to plaster and put in gutters and a vent for extractor fan and the architect wants to build right up to the boundary wall with no room to get in and plaster or room for gutters.
I am going with the builders advice regarding the distance,he has shown me two other extensions with the same type of build and they look fine,so all he is doing is moving the whole extension over half a foot so we wont be losing any internal space.So he is hoping to start this day next week,fingers crossed.

Penn

harr wrote: »

Thanks for all the replys,i spoke to neighbour and showed him the plans,he is a quiet sort of man and i knew by his reactions on seeing the plans he was a bit put off and was kind of embarrassed at asking negative questions regarding the boundary wall but he did say that he would be happier with the new wall staying inside the boundary wall.
So that's it, it will have to be built the way the builder recommended but now have to find a proper distance between the two walls,builder wants room enough to plaster and put in gutters and a vent for extractor fan and the architect wants to build right up to the boundary wall with no room to get in and plaster or room for gutters.
I am going with the builders advice regarding the distance,he has shown me two other extensions with the same type of build and they look fine,so all he is doing is moving the whole extension over half a foot so we wont be losing any internal space.So he is hoping to start this day next week,fingers crossed.

Probably the best for all concerned. Like I said, the gap can be closed off with PVC sheeting and a potted plant or something in front of it means it'll barely even be noticeable.

sydthebeat

if its not possible to build a new boundary, en the builders suggestion is best.. you need space to:

1. dig a foundation
2. weather proof the wall ie plaster
3. apply standard guttering, down pipes etc.

generally 600mm would be the narrowest width to keep