Only wall left standing.

ann marie kelly

I have acquired what I intend to be my dream home. It does not look much now and my builder has advised me to knock and re build. This is not an option for me so I intend to do it up to a comfortable standard. I am wondering what BER rating I can get and what do I need to do to get the best BER with a modest budget. The walls are concrete built in the 50s.:)

archtech

If you have to keep the structure that stands, I would suggest that your best option is to engage an architect, architectural technologist/technician or other building professional with retrofit skills/experience. Stay away from builders until you've drawings,details and specifications of what you want and how to achieve it and then go to tender so that you can see if you can afford it. Renovations can work out expensive and significant unexpected costs can raise if you haven't the ground work done before you start.

You are looking at a planning application in some format, as you properly need a new treatment unit percolation area at the very least. Do you know when the house was last habitable? It could be a grey area regarding whether reinstating a roof etc needs planning permission. At the very least I would recommend seeking a Section 5 Declaration from the local authority, so that you have something to fall back on for the bank or a sale in the future. Other may disagree and say you need planning permission.

External Wall insulation will certainly be suggested as a solution to address the external walls as it can address thermal bridging, insulation and interstitial condensation all together relatively easily.

sinnerboy

What size will the completed building be ? Because you need to contemplate a build budget of about €1000/m2 min. The walls are a good start , maybe , and I say that because you will need a structural engineer to inspect the walls and their foundations to be satisfied that they are still serviceable.

sinnerboy

I must say your photo ( in the closed thread ) reminded me of this

sydthebeat

ann marie kelly wrote: »

I have acquired what I intend to be my dream home. It does not look much now and my builder has advised me to knock and re build. This is not an option for me so I intend to do it up to a comfortable standard. I am wondering what BER rating I can get and what do I need to do to get the best BER with a modest budget. The walls are concrete built in the 50s.:)

at last after 2 attempts... we have a question

ann marie, please feel free to attach a pic here, as it now makes sense.

as for a BER, whatever you can afford is open to you. You should realise that any planning application to restore this ruin to a habitable structure will incur compliance with current building regulations.

This minimum building regulation is your baseline, you budget must at least reflect this minimum compliance.

just a quick note on planning... your local authority will deal with this as though its an application for a brand new dwelling and the fact theres a ruin there will count for little.

ann marie kelly

The Paperwork i.e. engineers reports are an absolute nightmare and have delayed work starting until the Spring. I am now studying the best insulation to use and I have looked at several options. I have decided to go with a hemp/lime internal insulation and a lime and sand plaster on the outside. I am terrified of black mould and this is one reason I am going the lime road. I am working on a very strict budget and I want the best insulation which could be a contraction. The property will soon be officially mine.

grazeaway

a very important thing to take into account will be dampness under the building. depending on how old the building is the foundations may not be great for keeping out water. A neighbour of mine rebuilt a cottage recently and one of the 1st jobs they did was to dig up the floors and put in insulation and a damp-proof membrane, he also dug a drain all the way around the outside walls and filled it with drainage pipe and stone to allow any water in the ground to drain away rather then sit under the walls. you could catually see change in the colour of the walls as the dampness was draining away.

jonniebgood1

ann marie kelly wrote: »

The Paperwork i.e. engineers reports are an absolute nightmare

Why?

ann marie kelly wrote: »

I am now studying the best insulation to use and I have looked at several options. I have decided to go with a hemp/lime internal insulation and a lime and sand plaster on the outside. I am terrified of black mould and this is one reason I am going the lime road. I am working on a very strict budget and I want the best insulation which could be a contraction.

Strict budget and lime plaster ???

ann marie kelly

There are problems with the deeds but it is been sorted. It might be for the best as it will give me more time to read up more on construction and insulation.

Lime plastering is expensive and getting a good job done as far as I can see from visiting a few sites is difficult.

I intend putting in a french drain and the house is on a little hill. Happy days:)

ann marie kelly

Can anyone recomend a good lime plasterer for me????. Thanks in advance.

dathi

why would you use hemp/lime insulation internally on a mass concrete wall ? the concrete cannot breath . so any moisture traveling through the hemp/lime will hit the cold concrete wall and condense. so you will get a build up of moisture between the hemp/lime and concrete wall.

sydthebeat

ann marie kelly wrote: »

Can anyone recomend a good lime plasterer for me????. Thanks in advance.

ann marie, what do you propse will be the wall build up when its complete??

are you getting professional advice as to the minimum specification needed and the best "bang for buck" materials to meet this specification?

ann marie kelly

Dathi. I will be using hemp and lime because it is one of the few materials that will not result in condensation/mould that I know of.

Sydthebeay; I intend to have 100mm of hemp/lime internal insulation or more if needed. I intend to get Professional advice when I reach that stage but I am finding it difficult to get architects and builders that have a track record in this type of construction.

dathi

you are missing my point, the lime hemp is breathable but if you put it internally any moisture that moves through it can only travel as far as the mass concrete walls which will be colder than the lime hemp layer, and as mass concrete is not breathable condensation will occur between the two layers,this over time will lead to a build up of moisture in the hemp lime and mould problems .

sydthebeat

ann marie kelly wrote: »

Dathi. I will be using hemp and lime because it is one of the few materials that will not result in condensation/mould that I know of.

Sydthebeay; I intend to have 100mm of hemp/lime internal insulation or more if needed. I intend to get Professional advice when I reach that stage but I am finding it difficult to get architects and builders that have a track record in this type of construction.

ann marie, id suggest seeking professional advice at this stage because you are going around in circles.

as dathi has said, lime plaster on a mass concrete wall doesnt make sense, neither from a scientific nor budgetry point of view. Lime is a breathable material but mass concrete isnt. If you insulate internally you are making the concrete wall very cold and thus thats where condensation will occur.
Also, if you insulate internally then every point at which a masonry internal wall meets an external wall you have a cold bridge, and condensation will occur.
Lime render works best where the whole wall is breathable such as old stone walls, solid brick walls, timber walls etc.

the best solution is to insulate externally thus making the concrete wall warm and no condensation can occur then.

also, id suggest at this stage that you would need so much lime render to meet minimum regulations internally that it will either be impracticable to apply or so expensive as to make it prohibitive.

sinnerboy

sydthebeat wrote: »

ann marie, id suggest seeking professional advice at this stage because you are going around in circles..

At which juncture I would like to add - go back to the link at post no 4...

sinnerboy

ann marie kelly wrote: »

Dathi. I will be using hemp and lime because it is one of the few materials that will not result in condensation/mould that I know of..

Materials in and of themselves don't give rise to condensation/mould. Poor insulation/ventilation/heating does. Get this wrong and ANY material will experience condensation/mould.

ann marie kelly

Thanks shinnerboy. I read your link in post no 4 and I am at a loss as to whether this house has an external insulation system supplied and fitted by the company named or has it an external lime plaster or it it a combination of both or what?

archtech

ann marie kelly wrote: »

Thanks shinnerboy. I read your link in post no 4 and I am at a loss as to whether this house has an external insulation system supplied and fitted by the company named or has it an external lime plaster or it it a combination of both or what?

It's an external insulation system with a lime based render.
One comment it's best to get the professionals involved now to offer you guidance and assist in your decision making before going down the road too far and then running into difficulty . Not all solutions are suitable for every project .

ann marie kelly

Thanks Archtech. I am going to get professional help. I had expected to receive hundreds of PMs from professionals directing me to jobs of this nature they have done.

sinnerboy

How many PMs did you get ?

sydthebeat

ann marie kelly wrote: »

Thanks shinnerboy.

sorry, had to laugh when i read this... :D:D

ooh aah up the rah!!!

sinnerboy

tiochaidh mo la

ann marie kelly

Sorry Sinnerboy for misspelling your name.
I have only received 3 PMs so far which is surprising because I need a good project manager.

I have no worries about moulds/condensation because
Whereas modern buildings tend to rely on cavity wall construction to prevent moisture3 from penetrating the walls,older buildings generally rely on allowing moisture which has been absorbed by the fabric to evaporate from the surface. This is achieved with the use ofbreathable’ lime-based mortars, renders and internal plasters.The most common causes of damp are described below:Cement render and plaster and waterproof coatings and sealants prevent the structure from breathing and lead to a build-up of moisture within the walls when they are applied to the walls of historic buildings. This then causes the walls to deteriorate.

sydthebeat

ann marie kelly wrote: »

I have no worries about moulds/condensation because
.............Cement render................

Do you not realise that a mass concrete wall is simply a very thick "cement render" ?

These "older buildings" which is being referred to here would be brick or stone buildings.

ann marie kelly

My old walls and plaster are all breathable. The proof of this is the fact that they are still firmly secured/bonded to each other. Had either the masonry or plaster not been breathable there would be a build up of moisture/condensation/mould between the masonry and the plaster which would have expanded with freezing which would result with the plaster falling off.

sinnerboy

I think the ample ventilation provided by no roof is playing the major part here . The fabric is being dried by such exposure as much as it is being wetted.

This does not inform how the walls will behave when the building is enclosed nor can you conclude thuat your concrete walls are breathing.

ann marie kelly

The house was lived in for over 50 years, A build up of damp,mould, etc would have built up during that time that would be visible today if it was going to happen.

sinnerboy

Hint

<SNIP>

Mod edit: No need for the goading

archtech

ann marie kelly wrote: »

My old walls and plaster are all breathable. The proof of this is the fact that they are still firmly secured/bonded to each other. Had either the masonry or plaster not been breathable there would be a build up of moisture/condensation/mould between the masonry and the plaster which would have expanded with freezing which would result with the plaster falling off.

ann marie kelly wrote: »

The house was lived in for over 50 years, A build up of damp,mould, etc would have built up during that time that would be visible today if it was going to happen.

Houses 50 years ago were nice and draughty with plenty of natural air changes and not as warm as they are today so condensation wasn't an issue with them. If someone asked me to put a bet on a 1950's original farmhouse or a 1990's 2 storey and which had condensation, I would be betting on the later.

To be frank you haven't displayed an understanding of construction or materials, nor do you appear to want to take advise from those whom know what they are talking about. And then you wonder why so few are PMing you.

sydthebeat

ann marie kelly wrote: »

The house was lived in for over 50 years, A build up of damp,mould, etc would have built up during that time that would be visible today if it was going to happen.

i dont know where your getting your information, but you seriously havent a clue.

ann marie kelly

Sydthebeat I agree with you in so far as I do not have all the answers and that is why I am posting here. What I do know is that there appears to be an epidemic of mould problems that no one can show any way of solving other than keeping the windows open or boring new vent holes. I do understand the reaction of Ca(OH)2 with moisture and understand why buildings built with lime have stood the test of time. The scientific proof and the historical proof exists that shows that if the materials are breathable you will not have condensation.



On the other hand if you can show a system that will guarantee no condensation I will definitely consider using your system.

muffler

Im lazy here and and dont have the time to read back through all the posts but are you opposed to the idea of demolishing whats left and building completely in the new? If so is it for planning reasons?

BryanF

What I do know is that there appears to be an epidemic of mould problems that no one can show any way of solving other than keeping the windows open or boring...

when you say 'no one' what conservation architect have you had on site? have you contacted any damp specialists? Or the two specialist contractors I suggested via pm... Ann Marie you can only expect so much on a forum with the limited info given and a confused diagnosis at best. I wish you luck with your project

ann marie kelly

Muffler. I am stuck with what I have, planning and other reasons.

Bryan F. I got your 2 PMs (thanks) and I intend to talk to both and see their work. I did not have any archiect yet and I was hoping to get someone like yourself that has a track record in this type of work to advise me, do the BER etc and recomend skilled tradesmen. My biggest worry is mould and in all the houses I have looked at except 1 there was condensation on the windows which as you know will lead to mould. This is why I am now planning on using lime as much as possible. I will need a lot of luck but I will not rush into anything and at this stage nothing is ruled out. Thanks again for the recomendations.

sydthebeat

ann marie kelly wrote: »

Sydthebeat I agree with you in so far as I do not have all the answers and that is why I am posting here. What I do know is that there appears to be an epidemic of mould problems that no one can show any way of solving other than keeping the windows open or boring new vent holes. I do understand the reaction of Ca(OH)2 with moisture and understand why buildings built with lime have stood the test of time. The scientific proof and the historical proof exists that shows that if the materials are breathable you will not have condensation.



On the other hand if you can show a system that will guarantee no condensation I will definitely consider using your system.

ann marie, you dont seem to understand WHY mould begins to grow on walls.

you seem intent to push lime paster as some kind of "cure all" solution to this issue, but you are simply INCORRECT in that assumption. If you understood WHY condensation causes mould youd understand WHY lime render on a mass concrete wall wouldnt work. If anything you would actually be making the issue worse.
Ever material is breathable, its just that some are a lot more breathable than others.

i suggest you read here
http://www.ecotimberframe.ie/pdf/BreathabilityinbuildingsNBT.pdf


thats all ill say on the matter because you seem to have your focus fixed on one particular route, so good luck with it.

ann marie kelly

sydthebeat wrote: »

the best solution is to insulate externally thus making the concrete wall warm and no condensation can occur then.

Sydthebeat No matter what insulation I have I will have condensation. It will be apparent on the glass of the windows which I can live with but not apparent somewhere in my wall where the cold surface meets the warm surface which will eventually become mould which I cannot live with.


Science tells us that lime is the answer (Ca(OH)2+H2O=Ca(H)4+0.

Historic buildings prove this because the build up of old houses from the outside was slate, slating lat, rafter, and a lime plastered ceiling. Basically the entire roof was one massive cold bridge. Had the lime not worked the underside of the slates would be covered with condensation and the slating lats would have rotted away in a few years. Yet we see these buildings have lasted some over 200 years.


I have also been in a home that is lime plastered. The room has no vents and yet there is not one drop of condensation on the windows. The home owner is thinking of putting in vents to allow moist ait in because the air in the room is noticeably dry. You are more than welcome to visit this home to see for your self.

MicktheMan

AnnMarie, I don't get it. You came on here looking for advice and yet you have rejected all the advice given. You seem to only hear what you want to hear. The following quote illustrates this:

ann marie kelly wrote: »

I have also been in a home that is lime plastered. The room has no vents and yet there is not one drop of condensation on the windows. The home owner is thinking of putting in vents to allow moist ait in because the air in the room is noticeably dry. You are more than welcome to visit this home to see for your self.

If the homeowner does put vents in, then he/she may very well end up with dryer air inside as external air is dryer than internal air in the winter.

dathi

ann marie you do not have a historic lime and rubble based wall construction. you have by your own admission a 1950s concrete wall made with shock and horror cement .so details that work in historic houses are not necessarily going to work if slapped into your concrete shell. having worked on several of these "historic buildings " i dont share your rose tinted glassed view of them.if you bother going to see some you will realise that the ones that worked have a fireplace in practically every room .this acts like a passive stack ventilation when not lit, drawing moist air up the chimney and fresh air in through the poorly glazed sash windows, and thats what stops their condensation. the guys here are offering you some very good advise on what you need to do to get the best result out of the limitations that your concrete shell places on you. but as the saying goes you can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink. on that note i,am out

ann marie kelly

The only thing I have ruled out so far is Dry Lining and that is ruled out because of all the horror stories I have heard about mould etc behind the drylining. I am focusing on my internal walls first because I will be looking at them 24/7. I have also heard and read horror stories about lime plasrering and I have been directed to a lime plasterer that can give me the finish I want on my internal walls with a lime plaster. I had hoped that I would have hundreds of PMs from people that have restored homes like this with different systems that I could look at and simply say to the project manager of that site. This is what I want can you do this for me?. 30 mm of lime plaster should be enough to absorbe all the condensation in my home so in the absence of any other suggestions except drylining lime plaster is the only option. If I go with internal insulation the only option other than drylining is hemp/lime proposed here. I am lucky because I can also go with external insulation because I can dig as deep as I need to and I can put an overhang on my roof to suit.

Sorry. I have also ruled out wall vents because. I intend to put in ceiling vents that are vented to the soffit with the little fan but my fan will be wired to work from the remote controle of my TV.

sydthebeat

ann marie kelly wrote: »

Sydthebeat No matter what insulation I have I will have condensation. It will be apparent on the glass of the windows which I can live with but not apparent somewhere in my wall where the cold surface meets the warm surface which will eventually become mould which I cannot live with.
.

again... i will direct you to this statement

ann marie, you dont seem to understand WHY mould begins to grow on walls.

ann marie kelly wrote: »

Science tells us that lime is the answer (Ca(OH)2+H2O=Ca(H)4+0.
.

science also tells us that if your wearing a warm woolly jumper and wrap your self in plastic youll get wet on the inside, as the sweat cannot evaporate outwards.... thats exactly what will happen with your construction because your internal lime render will be warm and "fluffy" but your mass concrete wall will be cold and "plastic"... the 'sweat' (condensation / water vapour) cannot evaporate to the outside because its stopped by the concrete wall. As i said before your actually making the situation worse than it is currently... heed that or not, its up to you.

Sorry. I have also ruled out wall vents because. I intend to put in ceiling vents that are vented to the soffit with the little fan but my fan will be wired to work from the remote controle of my TV.

ive heard it all now :rolleyes:

perhaps you should START by reading this document.
http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,1647,en.pdf

ann marie kelly

Sydthebeat. You have not offered alternitives and I am interisted in what you suggest.

I do not understand what you see wrong with a ceiling extractor fan because there in one in every bathroom in every hotel I was ever in and it should be simple to have it wired up to work from a remote controle.

Why do you believe my lime plaster will be ""Fluffy"". I do not want fluffy I want a proper skim that is painted. I do not want to look at fuuffy/dust for the rest of my life 24/7. My existing walls should not be cold because I intend to put something outside them, probally external insulation but I have not as of yet looked at any in detail to decide which system to go with, although I like the system suggested Sinnerboy.

We already know that the lime absorbes moisture/condensation and this is evident in old buildings with the origional roofs/slates which are cold bridges.

But having that said I am interisted in what you or anyone else suggest for this type of building.

muffler

ann marie kelly wrote: »

But having that said I am interisted in what you or anyone else suggest for this type of building.

No you're not. You have dismissed all advice given here.

MicktheMan

muffler wrote: »

No you're not. You have dismissed all advice given here.

Bet me to it:(

sas

ann marie kelly wrote: »

Sydthebeat. You have not offered alternitives and I am interisted in what you suggest.

I do not understand what you see wrong with a ceiling extractor fan because there in one in every bathroom in every hotel I was ever in and it should be simple to have it wired up to work from a remote controle.

Why do you believe my lime plaster will be ""Fluffy"". I do not want fluffy I want a proper skim that is painted. I do not want to look at fuuffy/dust for the rest of my life 24/7. My existing walls should not be cold because I intend to put something outside them, probally external insulation but I have not as of yet looked at any in detail to decide which system to go with, although I like the system suggested Sinnerboy.

We already know that the lime absorbes moisture/condensation and this is evident in old buildings with the origional roofs/slates which are cold bridges.

But having that said I am interisted in what you or anyone else suggest for this type of building.

SOOOoooooo.....

You've got concrete structure which I assume you accept moisture won't pass through.

You've got a house which will have a constant (ish) source of moisture within it i.e. people living, washing, cooking.

You want the walls (via lime plaster) to absorb this moisture?

You want to use a small on demand ceiling fan to deal with all of your ventilation?

Do all of these statements sound accurate to you?

I'm trying to understand "your" logic

(a) The fan idea suggests you appreciate the need for ventilation of some sorts. Why then have the plaster store moisture, surely a proper ventilation strategy is the way to go?

(b) You keep referring to old buildings. As has been pointed out and missed\ignored by you, old building were very drafty. If there were built of the least breahtable material available they likely would have performed similarly because the drafts dealt with any internal moisture. Alot of old cottages had chimneys that you could climb up. That's going to offer alot of natural ventilation.

Pretty much all of the professionals that post in this forum have responded to this thread at this point and you still believe they are all misunderstanding you. (I'm not a construction professional so I'm not included in this)

Explain to me why my concrete block house with plastic external insulation has no moisture issues at all, i.e. never has condensation on the windows, house plants dry out very quickly. It's also very airtight (well exceeds PH standard) which means it's not caused by drafts.

It works because I have a proper ventilation plan, in my case a HRV. While HRV isn't for everyone, there are other options, none of which involve trying to store moisture in your wall.

ann marie kelly

A heat recovery ventelation. That is a wonderfull idea/solution. Thank you very much. Sas.

ann marie kelly

They even have Demand Controlled Ventilation so my remote controle notion was not all that stupid after all. The idea of having a 100mm hole in the wall was not my idea of comfort. Thank you again.

ann marie kelly

Now I have a very crooked, uneven wall that I want straightened. Dry Lining is still ruled out.
1 I can get it plastered with sand and cement and skimmed with Gypsum
2 I can get it plastered with sand and lime and skimmed with lime plaster.
3 I can get it straighened with Hemp/lime insulation and skimmed with lime.

The end result will be the same. (a smooth painted surface). 2 and 3 will be more expensive than 1. 3 will be warmer than 2.

Weighing up the extra cost against the extra warmth and after reading breaking the mould by Joseph Little http://www.josephlittlearchitects.com/papers.html I think option 3 is best.

archtech

ann marie kelly wrote: »

Now I have a very crooked, uneven wall that I want straightened. Dry Lining is still ruled out.
1 I can get it plastered with sand and cement and skimmed with Gypsum
2 I can get it plastered with sand and lime and skimmed with lime plaster.
3 I can get it straighened with Hemp/lime insulation and skimmed with lime.

The end result will be the same. (a smooth painted surface). 2 and 3 will be more expensive than 1. 3 will be warmer than 2.

Weighing up the extra cost against the extra warmth and after reading breaking the mould by Joseph Little http://www.josephlittlearchitects.com/papers.html I think option 3 is best.

Why don't you make an appointment to meet Joesph Little, whom will provide you will all the advise you need to know.

BryanF

is this or isn't this house built out of concrete?

can you confirm the existing wall build-up please!

ann marie kelly

It is a very weak cement content, plenty of stones, sand and lime. The old plaster is a lime plaster. It was built in the 40/50s It is rubble stone bonded with a lime cement morter. I am told it was standard build for the 40, 50 and early 60s.