Wetsuits

sconhome

Often wondered when dealing with the sales reps about the legality of the wetsuits with the 'gill' type flaps on the forearms. Question was never directly answered and usually a muttered 'they're not illlegal' was the reply.

The answer is now definitive http://www.triathlonireland.com/index.php?id=107&nid=885

From Triathlon Ireland:
"As per the ITU rule 4.6 b (i) first bullet point, which forbids artificial propulsion devices, wetsuits with elements which separates from the wetsuit in the propulsion phase of the stroke, increasing the pushing surface, are not allowed."

Rule 4.6
b.) Illegal Equipment:
(i) Athletes must not use:
• Artificial propulsion devices;

I first saw this as a drive system which promises:

Increases the effective cross sectional area of the arm by 8%.
Carbon Drive panels are activated only on the pull portion of the stroke.
Complies with the latest WTC, USAT and ITU regulations.

Be sure of the rules when buying any piece of equipment. Expect to see some of the most expensive wetsuits drop dramatically in price in the next short while, don't be codded.

BTH

amphkingwest wrote: »

Often wondered when dealing with the sales reps about the legality of the wetsuits with the 'gill' type flaps on the forearms. Question was never directly answered and usually a muttered 'they're not illlegal' was the reply.

The answer is now definitive http://www.triathlonireland.com/index.php?id=107&nid=885

From Triathlon Ireland:
"As per the ITU rule 4.6 b (i) first bullet point, which forbids artificial propulsion devices, wetsuits with elements which separates from the wetsuit in the propulsion phase of the stroke, increasing the pushing surface, are not allowed."

Rule 4.6
b.) Illegal Equipment:
(i) Athletes must not use:
• Artificial propulsion devices;

I first saw this as a drive system which promises:

Increases the effective cross sectional area of the arm by 8%.
Carbon Drive panels are activated only on the pull portion of the stroke.
Complies with the latest WTC, USAT and ITU regulations.

Be sure of the rules when buying any piece of equipment. Expect to see some of the most expensive wetsuits drop dramatically in price in the next short while, don't be codded.

Never seen these wetsuits, can you give us a link to one?? Solely for research

d4r3n

Try this, watch the video too.

sconhome

The link to the rocketscience is one. Speedo also launched one recently, which I expect will be shortlived.

VORTEXTM stroke panel (patent pending) technology which increases the efficiency of every swim stroke. The panels activate and expand in the pull phase of the stroke, increasing the drag coefficient, thus allowing more energy to be directed to the water.

I can't figure out how to embed pics, but its here: http://www.speedousa.com/female-tri-elite-long-sleeve-wetsuit.shtml

BTH

d4r3n wrote: »

Try this, watch the video too.

Cheers.

:eek: Carbon flaps on your sleeve?? Who came up with that idea??? Not surprised these things arent allowed.

sconhome

BetterThanHoyte wrote: »

Never seen these wetsuits, can you give us a link to one?? Solely for research

You don't need anything to help you go quicker in the water!!

BTH

amphkingwest wrote: »

You don't need anything to help you go quicker in the water!!

Yes I do. That Grealish guy from your club is next on the list. But it'll be another winter of verbal abuse from Interested that will get me there.

El Director

Yep saw that a few weeks ago. At the beginning of the season I saw a guy wearing one of these and he showed me these panels that activate on the pull phase....pure Batman sh1t! I laughed and said "sure that has to be cheating!" He laughed too and neither of us thought any more of it. That was until I saw that article and thought back. I e mailed that same guy (top triathlete in Ire, always in top 2/3 of swim) to ask will this effect him. Did not hear back. I assume it will, right? I mean just read this:

"...The improved VORTEX Stroke Panel 2.0 technology increased the power delivery of every swim stroke during your swim. The new forearm panels activate and expand during then pull phase of the stroke, allowing a better hold on the water. Drag is increased by 30% compared to the 2010 model, which creates more energy transfer to the forward propulsion. The panels then de-activate in the recovery phase of the stroke allowing for a regular arm recovery"

It's cheating in my eyes. Big question is....will Tri Ire enforce the rule?

Unregistered.

El Director

Unregistered. wrote: »

sexy

catweazle

My Xterra Pro 3 has some type of grid on each of the forearms but I don't think they expand or anything like that in the pull stage :rolleyes:

BetterThanHoyte wrote: »

Yes I do. That Grealish guy from your club is next on the list. But it'll be another winter of verbal abuse from Interested that will get me there.

You are going the right way about catching him with sub 3 marathon training - hes as good as you get in the run!

sconhome

Panels and friction neoprene are fine because they are part of the suit. Its the expandable man from atlantis gills which are not.

But if you want to change your Xterra for something more comfortable...:)

catweazle

amphkingwest wrote: »

But if you want to change your Xterra for something more comfortable...:)

Ha no chance - that big red X across the front along with the Kayenne googles makes me feel like a superhero, perhaps Cyclops from X-men (although not quiet as buff perhaps)

BTH

catweazle wrote: »

You are going the right way about catching him with sub 3 marathon training - hes as good as you get in the run!

He fairly flew past me on Saturday alright, about 3km to go.

peter kern

if i glue 4 garmins 310 on the arms of my wet suit I get far more resitence than this suit , and its legal ......

I assume tapeing those catchers up with duct tape will be fine.

Unregistered. wrote: »

gottarun

That would be a way round alright Peter, but the fact they are there means the suit would still be illegal, I assume.

Bit like if you'd a skin/ speed suit for the pool, they're not legal & just because you might wear shorts over it to provide drag, the suit would still be illegal.

Fazz

El Director wrote: »

Yep saw that a few weeks ago. At the beginning of the season I saw a guy wearing one of these and he showed me these panels that activate on the pull phase....pure Batman sh1t! I laughed and said "sure that has to be cheating!" He laughed too and neither of us thought any more of it. That was until I saw that article and thought back. I e mailed that same guy (top triathlete in Ire, always in top 2/3 of swim) to ask will this effect him. Did not hear back. I assume it will, right? I mean just read this:

"...The improved VORTEX Stroke Panel 2.0 technology increased the power delivery of every swim stroke during your swim. The new forearm panels activate and expand during then pull phase of the stroke, allowing a better hold on the water. Drag is increased by 30% compared to the 2010 model, which creates more energy transfer to the forward propulsion. The panels then de-activate in the recovery phase of the stroke allowing for a regular arm recovery"

It's cheating in my eyes. Big question is....will Tri Ire enforce the rule?

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure I know who you're talking about!
Noticed a new wetsuit talking to him in Valentia.

If so, then I did notice he had swapped back to his previous wetsuit in his last race so perhaps on the back of the regulations!

Mad some waste of money if you'd just bought that bad boy...!

If its same person I'm thinking of, then you could easily ask him yourself

interested

@OP - great post, and you're probably in a better position than most to comment on this but it's definitely something creeping in across a lot of suits.

In the last couple of years its gone from the 'ridges' on the suit's forearms and now these flaps. As before, to use someone elses phrase it's "cheating" since if it's allowed then the manufacturers will steadily go towards 'mits' for each hand that operate as paddles etc and are easy to slip out of coming to the end of a swim.

But then again, with the wetsuits providing such buoyancy most are effectively cheating anyway. The rules on wetsuit swim or no wetsuit swim are based on water temperature - so why allow the suits that provide free buoyancy and use finishes that reduce drag ? why not just make everyone swim in 'surf' style wetsuits that work by maintaining a layer of water next to the body to keep you warm, provide flexibility but not quite the buoyancy that a swim wetsuit does and doesn't have forearm finishes that facilitate catching and holding more water when pulling ?

Since everyone is wearing them nobody is cheating eh and lets face it, money makes the world go around and around and ....


** was swimming last night, alone, without a wetsuit, hat, goggles and realised how f*cking inhibited the things make you feel in the water and how they completely alter your body position from the stroke you've worked on in the pool. Naturally, Ill be donning my highly buoyant suit, because of the rules, this weekend ... but just once, in July or August, it'd be nice to do a triathlon (in Ireland) without the wetsuit.

couerdelion

interested wrote: »

@OP - great post, and you're probably in a better position than most to comment on this but it's definitely something creeping in across a lot of suits.

In the last couple of years its gone from the 'ridges' on the suit's forearms and now these flaps. As before, to use someone elses phrase it's "cheating" since if it's allowed then the manufacturers will steadily go towards 'mits' for each hand that operate as paddles etc and are easy to slip out of coming to the end of a swim.

But then again, with the wetsuits providing such buoyancy most are effectively cheating anyway. The rules on wetsuit swim or no wetsuit swim are based on water temperature and associated safety - so why allow the suits that provide free buoyancy ? why not just make everyone swim in 'surf' wetsuits that work by maintaining a layer of water next to the body to keep you warm, provide flexibility but not quite the buoyancy that a swim wetsuit does ?

Since everyone is wearing them nobody is cheating eh


was swimming in OW last night without a suit and realise how restricted and remote swimming in a wetsuit is

...and why allow bikes with gears when single speeds are ok and in the olden days everyone used to run in cloggs so runners are effectively cheating too!

A certain amount of technology can aid a sport. the wetsuit issue in regards to pull flpannels is different. It's an unfair advantage.
The added buoyancy of a wetsuit is a different matter and you say is based on safety. It can also make the difference between someone trying the sport and someone just not bothering as the swim is too off-putting.

interested

couerdelion wrote: »

...and why allow bikes with gears when single speeds are ok and in the olden days everyone used to run in cloggs so runners are effectively cheating too!

A certain amount of technology can aid a sport. the wetsuit issue in regards to pull flpannels is different. It's an unfair advantage.
The added buoyancy of a wetsuit is a different matter and you say is based on safety. It can also make the difference between someone trying the sport and someone just not bothering as the swim is too off-putting.

@ bikes/gears, running in 'clogs'
Single speeds and barefoot running would also be cool ... in fact, racing flats and minimalist running shoes are appearing everywhere these days and all the cool kids ride fixies. I wonder how many gears are actually used on a flat 20k btw. But hey, my points were about 'swim' wetsuits used in triathlons. People have swam without them for quite some time so.

@ wetsuits / safety ...
"The added buoyancy of a wetsuit is a different matter and you say is based on safety. "

Apologies, after re-reading I changed my post before yours. The rules on wetsuit swim or no wetsuit swim are based on water temperature as far as I can tell. As with open water races WITHOUT suits, or how it used to be, I think it would be good - in addition to getting people to sign a swim waiver before a race that upon requesting a TI license they should submit a 'can swim 400 metres' cert. Without ever verifying you can swim it's more than possible for someone to enter any triathlon with swims from 750 to 3.8km anywhere without actually verifying they can swim the distance. That said, this is also the case for some 10k swims on the calendar.

"It can also make the difference between someone trying the sport and someone just not bothering as the swim is too off-putting."

I couldn't agree more that someone 'trying the sport' should be allowed use whatever wetsuit they like to give them a taste for it - so 'Try-a-try' events should be considered. Or dare I say it, pool based triathlons, all the fun of a triathlon without the cost of a wetsuit or the dangers of OW swimming for novices. If someone 'trying the sport' with a wetsuit has some bad luck and actually has to get pulled from the water because they can't make the distance for whatever reason are they still likely to come back for more ?

A couple of things:
I'm not against using wetsuits, rules dictate they have to be used due to water temperature. But I believe/its my opinion that new features of swimming wetsuits for triathlon give an 'unfair advantage'. You refer to the feature 'flap pannels'. I refer to unnatural buoyancy and forearm 'grips' (for want of a better term).
As well as talking about OW swimming to people, I spend alot of time helping people with OW swimming for the purposes of triathlon. I want people to be safe, be able to swim to ensure their own safety and enjoy something I thoroughly enjoy.

couerdelion

I probably didn't make my point very well in retrospect as i was too busy trying for sarcasm . What I was trying to get across that I wouldn't consider wetsuits as cheating.

You come from a swim background so don't need the aid of wetsuit buoyancy as much as some of the rest of us. I mean look how many people were disappointed when Austria went to a non-wetsuit swim and most of them would be considered able swimmers.

Wanting the option to complete the swims without wetsuits is an elitist thing. I don't mean that in a bad way, more that it's predominately the top few % of swimmers who would prefer that option - the elite. A non-wetsuit swim would give them a bigger lead going into T1 too. I'm pretty much middle of the pack and would hate to swim OW without a suit with added buoyancy. Yes if I was racing abroad and had to then it wouldn't be a problem as it's the same as a pool swim.

I actually agree with a lot you are saying. Maybe the wetsuits do give a feeling of invincibility to weak swimmers and if they had to prove they could do the swim before entering events then there would be a lot less people not completing. Perhaps similar to the OW events, smaller events/distances should be mandatory to be completed before being allowed to compete in the larger events.

interested

All good,
Just a couple of things on me
yep, swimming background - but a life time ago and I was and never will be elitist. I swam at a high level, new my limitations (ignored many) but in truth, was never really all that good. But f*ck it, Id a great time growing up in a pool and in the open water. Most would say I still haven't grown up but thats all good too.

couerdelion wrote: »

Wanting the option to complete the swims without wetsuits is an elitist thing.

To clarify, this was badly communicated on my part. I'd like to swim without my suit by choice in races where people can use their wetsuits if they like. Most would say this would give me a disadvantage (kinda my point about the unfair benefits they give people) but I'd be more than okay with that. I really don't compete when I complete triathlons anyhow.

Oh - and Austria - yeah, hell of an event in those conditions - two guys I know managed sub 75 mins swims without their suits. Both didn't panic, and got on with trying to focus on what they could control (their strokes) during the swim and did ALOT better than I'd have thought they would. Both would be ~ 63/65 min swimmers for 3.8k IM races.

couerdelion wrote: »

I actually agree with a lot you are saying. Maybe the wetsuits do give a feeling of invincibility to weak swimmers and if they had to prove they could do the swim before entering events then there would be a lot less people not completing. Perhaps similar to the OW events, smaller events/distances should be mandatory to be completed before being allowed to compete in the larger events.

Its kinda off topic but ..
Its that feeling of invincibility that in some occasions can put people in a bit of a jam in the open water. A healthy respect for the elements is as important as confidence.
I think there's definitely room for TI to 'help' safety crews / event organisers give ALL competitors a fun and at the same time competitive day out by requiring a 'proof of ability' style nod before accepting a race entry and fee.
Liffey swim is on this weekend, it used to be 3 other swims to be done before being allowed enter the 'longer'/'flow assisted' swim .. same or similar for the longer dun laoghaire swim.

peter kern

this post will earn you from somebody a comment that you have wetsuit envy ;-)
edit ups i see iam too late with that comment

interested wrote: »

@OP - great post, and you're probably in a better position than most to comment on this but it's definitely something creeping in across a lot of suits.

In the last couple of years its gone from the 'ridges' on the suit's forearms and now these flaps. As before, to use someone elses phrase it's "cheating" since if it's allowed then the manufacturers will steadily go towards 'mits' for each hand that operate as paddles etc and are easy to slip out of coming to the end of a swim.

But then again, with the wetsuits providing such buoyancy most are effectively cheating anyway. The rules on wetsuit swim or no wetsuit swim are based on water temperature - so why allow the suits that provide free buoyancy and use finishes that reduce drag ? why not just make everyone swim in 'surf' style wetsuits that work by maintaining a layer of water next to the body to keep you warm, provide flexibility but not quite the buoyancy that a swim wetsuit does and doesn't have forearm finishes that facilitate catching and holding more water when pulling ?

Since everyone is wearing them nobody is cheating eh and lets face it, money makes the world go around and around and ....


** was swimming last night, alone, without a wetsuit, hat, goggles and realised how f*cking inhibited the things make you feel in the water and how they completely alter your body position from the stroke you've worked on in the pool. Naturally, Ill be donning my highly buoyant suit, because of the rules, this weekend ... but just once, in July or August, it'd be nice to do a triathlon (in Ireland) without the wetsuit.

peter kern

ps thats why i dont teach a pool stroke ;-)

okane1

Reviewing the rules on when wetsuits are mandatory on Rules page 15

its says the once the water is above 14 or 16° wetsuits are not mandatory. In this case, is it up to the competitor weather or not to use a wetsuit or can you still be forced to wear one by TI?

For example, the Hardman is taking place next weekend in Killarney and the lake is currently 18.5°, measured last night. I felt very warm in the wetsuit when pushing hard. For me, togs would have been better.

peter kern

you have to take air temperature into consideration too
(is somewhere writen in itu rules )
less than 20 degree air temp each 1 degree reduces water temp by 0.5
ie 14 degree air temp at a lake that is 18.5 warm is then 15.5 water temp ( i only know this because i looked it up before i bet on the oly games )