Do people get BER certs?

Funnyonion79

Hi, I'm going to be renting out my apartment and am almost finished the (painful) process of buying a house.

I know that you're supposed to have a BER cert if you rent out your property and I know that I'm supposed to ensure I receive a BER cert from the property I'm buying.

But do people actually do this?

I mentioned the BER cert to my solicitor for the house we're buying and he said something along the lines of " well we can request one if you want, but it's not worth the paper it's written on and is only a money making racket". I know the house has a brand new gas boiler which was only fitted 18 months ago and I know the house is similar to my parents' house - as in, it was built in the 70s, walls aren't dry-lined etc. So I'm not bothered about getting a BER cert.

What if I didn't bother getting one for my rental either? Am going to register with PRTB, pay NPPR etc - have everything above board. Are there penalties for not having one?

Pkiernan

It is a legal requirement that you have one if you are selling or renting a dwelling.

Many scofflaws refuse to get one, as enforcement of the laws in this regard is non-existant.

A landlord who doesn't get one, imo is foolish (they are very cheap) and is leaving him or herself open to extortion by scumbag tenants.

silja

I agree it's a money making racket, but it is the law you have one and if you do not, and do not show it to the tenant, they can break the lease without penalty so it's worth it in my opinion.

Pkiernan

silja wrote: »

I agree it's a money making racket, but it is the law you have one and if you do not, and do not show it to the tenant, they can break the lease without penalty so it's worth it in my opinion.

That is completely untrue - unless the lease agreement states explicitly that the lease is contingent on a BER Certificate being made available to the tenant.


What the lack of a BER cert allows the tenant to do is to report the LL to the SEAI.

EricPraline

Funnyonion79 wrote: »

I mentioned the BER cert to my solicitor for the house we're buying and he said something along the lines of " well we can request one if you want, but it's not worth the paper it's written on and is only a money making racket".

Largely disagree with this statement, at least in the case of buying rather than renting. If you get a competent assessor who will provide the BER cert AND also provide genuinely useful advice on upgrading/renovating, then it's genuinely useful. Depending on the property, the report itself can highlight previously unseen aspects, such as quality/thickness of insulation and so on. Unfortunately we found that there are lazy assessors too out there, mostly affiliated with the larger estate agencies (surprise?).

Considering that you are probably spending €100k+ on a purchase, the least the vendor or vendor's solicitor can do is to provide a €200 cert, even to tick a box.

On a side note, I love the irony of a conveyancing solicitor using the phrase "money making racket" :rolleyes:

odds_on

Funnyonion79 wrote: »

Hi, I'm going to be renting out my apartment and am almost finished the (painful) process of buying a house.

I know that you're supposed to have a BER cert if you rent out your property and I know that I'm supposed to ensure I receive a BER cert from the property I'm buying.

But do people actually do this?

I mentioned the BER cert to my solicitor for the house we're buying and he said something along the lines of " well we can request one if you want, but it's not worth the paper it's written on and is only a money making racket". I know the house has a brand new gas boiler which was only fitted 18 months ago and I know the house is similar to my parents' house - as in, it was built in the 70s, walls aren't dry-lined etc. So I'm not bothered about getting a BER cert.

What if I didn't bother getting one for my rental either? Am going to register with PRTB, pay NPPR etc - have everything above board. Are there penalties for not having one?

I believe the Law Society of Ireland has advised all solicitors that they should not proceed with the conveyancing of a property without a current valid BER cert as the solicitor may be an in breach of the law as an agent of the vendor/purchaser. Thus, any solicitor not following the Law Society's advice, is, IMHO, not a solicitor to deal with.
Quote:

Originally Posted by silja
I agree it's a money making racket, but it is the law you have one and if you do not, and do not show it to the tenant, they can break the lease without penalty so it's worth it in my opinion.

Again, this idea that a lease can be broken without penalty comes from a statement by the Irish Law Society that, in the opinion of the law Society, a lease may be invalid if no BER cert was shown before a contract was signed. There has never been a court judgement on the matter to set a precedence. Furthermore, I don't believe that it has ever come up in a PRTB claim, which would be the first place to find this issue.

engineermike

Hi r/e the ber
I'm fully in agreement with Odds on - that you need it as a legal requirement .
Further to that- It will allow no issue or come back to you if you tenant is in arrears and is trying to avoid paying.
Also the BER done on site and a by a competent energy assessor will give you a good analysis report / recommendations some of which will be cost effective to employ - making the house more valuable & cheaper to run for the tenant.
There a wealth of rented houses out there that are very energy inefficient and are super costly to run - so anything that distinguishes your property is an addition.
mike f

Funnyonion79

Thanks for all the feedback. My apartment has storage heaters upstairs and really expensive convector heaters downstairs and this results in very high ESB bills in the winter time.

In an effort to reduce my energy bills, I've been using portable oil-filled heaters downstairs as they are much more cost efficient. The apartment was only built in 2005/2006, but there are huge drafts coming in from all the windows and doors and I know for a fact that half the building was never insulated properly.

A BER cert - although a legal requirement - is something that would hinder rather than help the rental of my property, so I think I'll hold off for now.

BostonB

Most of the LL I know have never been asked for a BER.

odds_on

BostonB wrote: »

Most of the LL I know have never been asked for a BER.

It is not the job of the tenant to ask for the BER cert, the landlord/agent is required by law to show the Cert to any potential client.

Originally Posted by Funnyonion79
Thanks for all the feedback. My apartment has storage heaters upstairs and really expensive convector heaters downstairs and this results in very high ESB bills in the winter time.

In an effort to reduce my energy bills, I've been using portable oil-filled heaters downstairs as they are much more cost efficient. The apartment was only built in 2005/2006, but there are huge drafts coming in from all the windows and doors and I know for a fact that half the building was never insulated properly.

A BER cert - although a legal requirement - is something that would hinder rather than help the rental of my property, so I think I'll hold off for now.

And that is exactly one of the main reason that the EU had this Energy Rating system introduced - it's not just an Irish regulation but covers the EU.

Do not complain if your tenant starts acting up during the winter when he discovers the cost of heating the place. He is entitled to know what the cost is likely to be.

BostonB

odds_on wrote: »

It is not the job of the tenant to ask for the BER cert, the landlord/agent is required by law to show the Cert to any potential client....

Only since 1st January 2009. Anyone who let before then wasn't required to show it. My point though was tenants seem completely unaware of it. Public awareness of it is very low. Theres a lot of ads for rentals which don't mention it also.

odds_on

BostonB wrote: »

Only since 1st January 2009. Anyone who let before then wasn't required to show it. My point though was tenants seem completely unaware of it. Public awareness of it is very low. Theres a lot of ads for rentals which don't mention it also.

Tenants are usually "amateurs" where as landlords are supposed to be responsible business people I presumably that is why the onus is put on the landlord to show the BER cert.

If the law was adhered to by landlords, tenants would be much more aware and would be in at a much better position to decide about a property they may rent using a considerable portion of their income. Once shown a BER cert, the potential tenant may use the information or discard it - that is their option.

BostonB

You can see the flaw in that plan. Assuming LL are all professional, AND relying on the LL to provider a BER that will put tenants off.

Then consider that theres a ...

"...tenuous relationship between a BER Certificate and the ‘real’ energy performance of a specific building. And in relation to ‘real’ buildings … there is a general non-compliance rate of 70% on Irish Building Sites with the minimal energy performance requirements in Part L of the Irish Building Regulations..."

Link

So unless the LL has a properly that will score highly, or tenants ask for it, or there is no enforcement, theres little incentive to do it. I assume thats why so many ads do not list the Ber rating.

odds_on

BostonB wrote: »

You can see the flaw in that plan. Assuming LL are all professional, AND relying on the LL to provider a BER that will put tenants off.

Then consider that theres a ...

"...tenuous relationship between a BER Certificate and the ‘real’ energy performance of a specific building. And in relation to ‘real’ buildings … there is a general non-compliance rate of 70% on Irish Building Sites with the minimal energy performance requirements in Part L of the Irish Building Regulations..."

Link

So unless the LL has a properly that will score highly, or tenants ask for it, or there is no enforcement, theres little incentive to do it. I assume thats why so many ads do not list the Ber rating.

If fully agree with you that the enforcing of the legislation is completely inadequate. This, I believe, comes down to the fact that it is the responsibility of the local authorities to enforce it.

However, the local authorities have neither the finance (nor personnel) to do the work. It is the Sustainable Energy Authority Ireland that oversees the BER certification and receives their portion of the fee for each cert issued.

Therefore, the local authorities have no incentive to enforce the law - more costs and no financial benefit apart from the possibility of receiving the "up to 5,000 euro fine" on conviction.

cookie1977

odds_on wrote: »

Therefore, the local authorities have no incentive to enforce the law - more costs and no financial benefit apart from the possibility of receiving the "up to 5,000 euro fine" on conviction.

Even at that if they did enforce it better you have 28 days to produce a cert when asked for it. Plenty of time to get it sorted and thus no fine of 5000 for the council.

BostonB

No incentive for the LL either. End result no BER but more critical than that no one takes any of it seriously.

odds_on

BostonB wrote: »

No incentive for the LL either. End result no BER but more critical than that no one takes any of it seriously.

No one takes it seriously and no one actually takes responsibility which happens all too frequently in this country. Again, another law with good intentions but badly executed.