Is it possible or lawful

shinzon

To get a geophysical survey done to see whats there without any intention of digging, or do you still have to go through all the official channels to get permisions and what not.

Shin

Gee Bag

You can have a geophysical survey with out having to excavate. It is pretty expensive though.

Don't exactly know what you mean by 'proper channels'. Can you give a bit more detail?

shinzon

Knockane villa in waterford is situated just off the Tennis courts by the old Jurys Hotel, it was demolished in 1968 to make way for said tennis courts, picture of it here



Built in the 1800's, im not sure if any archaelogical works been done up there, and knowing nothing about how to get a geophys survey done was why i was asking about official permissions and such.

shin

Briskit

Can't believe anyone would allow such a lovely structure to be demolished... for tennis courts :eek:.... sure it looks the kinda place that's probably sitting on Acres...

Even for the sixties... sounds nuts... Maybe you are just talking about the outhouses Shizon?

shinzon

youll have to use the overlay option on the osi map viewer here but as you can see the whole thing sits on the footprint of the courts up there give or take

http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,660362,613186,7,9

regards

Shin

Simon.d

That building was known locally as Fleming's Castle, and was indeed demolished to make way for the Jury's Hotel Complex, which itself has subsequently fallen into ruin in recent years.

The OSI maps indicates there was a structure there in 1830, called Mount Misery Lodge, which I'd assume was the house in the centre and some of outbuildings. The turrets and classical pantheonesque element was added in 1860 I believe...

The question I would be asking before forking out the expense of such a survey is what will be learned? You've a very detailed photo there already showing the plan of the building, which in my mind trumps any output from geophys....

slowburner

The monuments viewer lists a gibbet (KK046-007),
a mound, which was present in 1998 but is now gone,
and a standing stone (WA009-017002/3) within the grounds of Mount Misery.

It looks like an interesting place.
Presumably the gibbet, and the endearingly titled Mount Misery are related?

It must have been a significant site throughout history, sitting on such a strategically important position - easily defended and overlooking the sole crossing point of the river.
There has to be some information available from local historians?
The frequent demolition and reconstruction over recent years, has probably destroyed much of the archaeology.
The disappearance of the mound after 1998 is a case in point.

shinzon

The last siege of waterford took place in 1922 during the civil war and the pro treaty forces occupied flemings castle


"The Republican (anti-Treaty) garrison was commanded by Pax Whelan, a native of Dungarvan who had considerable experience of IRA activity in the county during the War of Independence. He had under him about 300 men, including members of the Cork Brigade.



The Free Staters (pro-Treaty) were commanded by Colonel Prout, a veteran of the Great War, assisted by Commandants Heaslip and Paul. Paul was a native of Waterford, and his intimate knowledge of the city was to prove vital. They had about 600 men, supported by artillery. They were superior to the Republicans in numbers, combat experience and fire power. Their trump card was an 18-pounder field gun which was far more powerful than anything on the Republican side, and which was protected by a shield. This meant that so long as the gun crew kept their heads down they were immune from anything the Republicans could throw at them.

On 18 July the Free Staters advanced from Kilkenny, occupied Mount Misery, and made their headquarters at Fleming’s Castle (on the site of the Ardree Hotel). Soon they came under fire from the city, but the 18-pounder field gun was in a superb position to shell the Republican strongpoints. A Free State force crossed the river by night from Giles’s Quay and took the Republicans in the rear. They had to abandon the Gaol and Barracks, which were immediately occupied by looters. The magazine in the Artillery Barrack exploded, killing several of the looters. A counter-attack from Carrick failed to materialize. Outnumbered, outgunned, outflanked and demoralized, the Republicans abandoned the city and withdrew westwards - in 1922, on this day."

And this is what mount misery looks like now, except the whole front of jurys is boarded up now in white to disguise the damage



Absolute shame

Shin

Gee Bag

I've actually been to this site before (the abandoned hotel) for a nose around. ( I wasn't robbing no copper pipes, honest I wasn't Guard)

A geophysical survey up here wouldn't work as the site has been much disturbed by successive phases of construction. Geophysics works best on 'greenfield' sites.

Ground penetrating radar can be used to detect archaeological sites which lie beneath modern developments (car-parks, roads, etc) but as far as I know it can only detect the remains of substantial stone or brick structures. It was succedfully used in Athboy, Co. Meath to detect the site of one of the old town gates beneath the modern road.

To be honest a geophysical survey wouldn't tell you much about the site other than the general layout of buildings etc. The various editions of the Ordnance Survey already provide this information and will give you a pretty good idea of the phases of development. You could also ask in the local history section of the library in Waterford City.

Geophysical survey is fairly expensive so it is used sparingly.

slowburner

Why is geophys so expensive?

Gee Bag

slowburner wrote: »

Why is geophys so expensive?

Basic supply and demand.

The equipment is very expensive and there are only a limited number of private companies that carry out this work. The Uni's use their equipment for there own research.

Typical cost would be a couple of thousand/acre for a basic survey. If you have to vary the type of techniques used then costs start to really shoot up

shinzon

So would there be any point in carrying out any work of this kind up there, even GPR. I know the topographical maps show generally the layout of the place, but it would be good to see if there is anything at all left of the place under the ground first.

Shin

Gee Bag

shinzon wrote: »

So would there be any point in carrying out any work of this kind up there, even GPR. I know the topographical maps show generally the layout of the place, but it would be good to see if there is anything at all left of the place under the ground first.

Shin

If I was advising a client I would say no.

All that is likely to be left are foundaton trenches and/or remnants of the basement levels (if they existed). Given the amount of disturbance to the site the results of a survey would likley probably be inconclusive, requiring you to use further survey techniques in the hope of finding something hence further cost.