Legal Definition of "A PUBLIC PLACE"

JasonBourne

Hello,

I was wondering if anyone knows what the legal definition of a Public place is? for example in my case. Is my privately owned business (A restaurant) in a privately owned building a public place? and does anoyone know how i can clarify this?

Regards

Jason

Tom Young

TaddddddA: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1994/en/act/pub/0002/sec0003.html#sec3

Victor

I am sure there is more than one definition of public place, e.g. for copyright purposes if you showed a football match on TV to your customers, it would be a public place, but for the purposes of the Road Traffic Acts, it wouldn't.

Tom Young

Victor wrote: »

I am sure there is more than one definition of public place, e.g. for copyright purposes if you showed a football match on TV to your customers, it would be a public place, but for the purposes of the Road Traffic Acts, it wouldn't.

You're right. There are quite a few arising at common law. I think the last High Court outing might have been in a case called Thorpe.

The 1994 Act does the trick for the OP query I feel.

JasonBourne

Thanks guys,

So can it be argued that is is not a public place? On the ground that there are conflicting laws?

I had IMRO in the other day. He stuck a contract in front of my missus and told her to sign, she said she would like to read it 1st they told her once she signed she coul keep a copy.

I was then brought in to the situation I told the guy that we would not sign till I was given time to review and seek advice. He was very persistent on told me I had to turn off the music in the restaurant unless I paid €495 + VAT I told him I refused and told him to leave nicely.

Anyone any thoughts on this? I know I can get un cocyrightrt music and so on, but I wanted to know what options I have. The guy wouldn't take no for an answer when it came to signing a contract.

I'm wondering about telling him to leave the premises if he returns and ask him to prove the music I'm playing is copyrighted.

source

JasonBourne wrote: »

Thanks guys,

So can it be argued that is is not a public place? On the ground that there are conflicting laws?

I had IMRO in the other day. He stuck a contract in front of my missus and told her to sign, she said she would like to read it 1st they told her once she signed she coul keep a copy.

I was then brought in to the situation I told the guy that we would not sign till I was given time to review and seek advice. He was very persistent on told me I had to turn off the music in the restaurant unless I paid €495 + VAT I told him I refused and told him to leave nicely.

Anyone any thoughts on this? I know I can get un cocyrightrt music and so on, but I wanted to know what options I have. The guy wouldn't take no for an answer when it came to signing a contract.

I'm wondering about telling him to leave the premises if he returns and ask him to prove the music I'm playing is copyrighted.

While your restaurant is private property, it is a public place, as members of the public have access.

Anybody playing copyrighted music in a public place, afaik has to make a contribution to imro.


Having said that never sign anything you haven't read.

Murky Waters

'What is meant by “public performance”?
A public performance of copyright music takes place when that music is used anywhere outside of the domestic environment.'

'Whether you are a restaurateur or hotelier, a bar owner, a shop owner, a health & fitness club/leisure centre owner, or managing a factory or an office, the following pages will answer your questions on an IMRO licence ....'

http://www.imro.ie/music-users/faq/

Victor

You can't get legal advice here.

JasonBourne wrote: »

So can it be argued that is is not a public place? On the ground that there are conflicting laws?

No, the relevant laws apply. A prosecution under X law would use the definition from X law.

I had IMRO in the other day. He stuck a contract in front of my missus and told her to sign, she said she would like to read it 1st they told her once she signed she coul keep a copy.

Sounds like someone on a commission.

Carawaystick

Murky Waters wrote: »

'What is meant by “public performance”?
A public performance of copyright music takes place when that music is used anywhere outside of the domestic environment.'

'Whether you are a restaurateur or hotelier, a bar owner, a shop owner, a health & fitness club/leisure centre owner, or managing a factory or an office, the following pages will answer your questions on an IMRO licence ....'

http://www.imro.ie/music-users/faq/

I'd take advice from a private organisation taking money off people explaining why you need to give them money with a pinch of salt....

The sentence on public performance in their faq is just wrong. music can be used without being performed.

tricky D

Would not allowing the contract to be read first before signing affect the enforceability of the contract?

NoQuarter

tricky D wrote: »

Would not allowing the contract to be read first before signing affect the enforceability of the contract?

Thats a whole other thread itself.

Victor

tricky D wrote: »

Would not allowing the contract to be read first before signing affect the enforceability of the contract?

If you aren't allowed read the contract, don't sign.

Not having read a contract generally isn't a defence in itself. However, there may be other defences, e.g. if a courier asked you to sign for a document, but you were actually signing a contract to sell your property for €1, then you could claim misrepresentation. You could also claim defences like incapacity to contract, illegal contract, etc., if relevant.

JasonBourne

thanks for the advice lads,

On a slightly off the main point, where does the law stand on me banning this gentleman from the establishment upon his return?? sending a registered letter to the IMRO office direct informing him of this. if he was to return would he be in breach of trespassing on private property after receiving a written warning?

you might think im being over the top but im just trying to find my limits/options on the matter,

I mean do they have the right to enter any property uninvited?

Thanks again.

Victor

That just puts you on their radar. Then they'll just send someone else / their solicitors. It won't mean you won't have to pay (if there is a requirement to pay).

seamus

ROAR. You would be perfectly entitled to bar anyone from IMRO or anyone representing them from entering your restaurant.
It's a meaningless gesture as there's little you can do except escort them from the premises.

It also doesn't actually address the issue you're having.

I would discuss it with a solicitor as copyright law can be a little tricky so trying to guess what the correct thing is, or refusing to pay out of sheer stubbornness could cost you more in the long run.

MagicSean

Barring them will not makethe problem go away

Baz_

JasonBourne wrote: »

I know I can get un cocyrightrt music and so on, but I wanted to know what options I have.

You hit on the solution here, either use un-copyrighted music or pay up.

Nobody, including IMRO, asked you to open a restaurant. But now that you have one you need to pay the costs of running a business. If you are playing copyrighted music in public (and your restaurant is a public place under many different acts of law) then IMRO want their cut.

It might seem ridiculous and the man collecting the money did sound like a pushy dick, but not paying will most definitely cost more in the long run, even if only on legal fees...

Tom Young

There is a fair bit of case law on this. The Cody case being instructive per Keane J. Nothing new in it. No new law, despite a recent ECJ referral by Finlay Geoghegan J.