Fake musical instrument

cossagepie

I recently bought a musical instrument in a private sale that I later found out to be fake. So I know that you will all say buyer beware, suck it up and move on.
However when I met this guy he was driving a van for a state owned company and it was during the normal working day. He was therefore selling fake goods from the company van when he should have been working.
Apart from reporting this to the company and getting him a slap on the wrist is there any route I can take either against the individual or the company to get my money back?
He has needless to say refused to answer emails and calls since the sale.

Paulw

cossagepie wrote: »

Apart from reporting this to the company and getting him a slap on the wrist is there any route I can take either against the individual or the company to get my money back?

No, there's nothing you can do. Buyer beware, as you already stated. It was a private sale.

The company was not party to the sale, so even reporting it to them may not be of any use at all.

Either way, there is no real way to get your money back, unfortunately.

johndoe99

was he selling the instrument as the true article. If so send him an email demanding your money back. Outline in the email that you will contact said company if he does not refund you. I bet he'll be in contact swiftly. Give the email a heading that will capture his attention, like "i'm contacting your company".

AltAccount

cossagepie wrote: »

I recently bought a musical instrument in a private sale that I later found out to be fake. So I know that you will all say buyer beware, suck it up and move on.
However when I met this guy he was driving a van for a state owned company and it was during the normal working day. He was therefore selling fake goods from the company van when he should have been working.
Apart from reporting this to the company and getting him a slap on the wrist is there any route I can take either against the individual or the company to get my money back?
He has needless to say refused to answer emails and calls since the sale.

Do you know (and can you prove) that he knew it was fake? Otherwise contacting his company with the accusation that he's selling counterfeit goods from their vehicle is a big leap.

Do you know that it was during his normal working day? He may work shifts and have been on his way to/from work when he met you.
He may have been on an official break. Lots of people, especially who are out and about in the course of their work (sales reps etc.) may have been in their company vehicle when selling/delivering something they sold on Adverts.ie or where ever.

It's only an issue if you make it one, and to be honest if you make it an issue then it's just because you're looking for petty revenge rather than through any other motivation.

All IMHO, of course.

RangeR

While I find this type of sale despicable, isn't blackmail illegal? Be very careful what you put to paper.

seamus

If you report it to the company, then chances are you will get a response along the same lines as AltAccount points out, that company employees have the use of company vans during non-working hours and so the employee was not doing anything wrong by meeting you in a company van.

You cannot chase the company for money. They were not party to the sale, they have no liability.

Although "Buyer Beware" is trotted about, it's not strictly that black-and-white. In the case that the seller has deliberately misled the buyer as to the nature or the condition of the item and taken steps to hide those facts at the time of sale, they can be done for fraud.

However, it's a very tough thing to get traction on in private sales, for a number of reasons;

- The buyer is usually given the opportunity to inspect the item before sale and should notice any issues then. Unlike retail sales, the seller is not considered an "expert" and therefore is not assumed to be capable of vouching for the integrity of the item.

- You have to show that the seller deliberately misled the buyer and it wasn't just an error of omission or ignorance.

chris85

I would be very careful about mentioning the company. the person sold it privately and perhaps he didnt know it was fake, if even he did you need to prove it first otherwise contacting the company and telling them this could be considered as defamation of character by the seller.

Nanazolie

How can musical instruments be fake? Did you not try them before buying?

Welease

Nanazolie wrote: »

How can musical instruments be fake? Did you not try them before buying?

Same as a Gucci handbag can be faked.. It's a bag, but its not made by Gucci, and therefore doesn't have the same value.

There are lots of fake Fender/Gibson etc. guitars being sold online, and they are poor quality and worth a fraction of the cost of the real item.

Gurgle

cossagepie wrote: »

I recently bought a musical instrument in a private sale that I later found out to be fake.

Where was it advertised?
Did the ad claim it was a genuine branded piece?
How did you pay?
Was the price you paid appropriate to a genuine branded piece or a knock-off?
If you didn't realize it was fake branding, why are you so sure the seller knew?

rubadub

Nanazolie wrote: »

Did you not try them before buying?

It might not be immediately obvious that its fake even if tested. Like people who buy high capacity memory cards and only find its fake when they eventually try to reach its max capacity.

Even if it does the same job it will usually have a lower resale value if the reseller is honest and discloses it is fake.

cossagepie

Jeez that's a lot of questions to be answered.
The instrument was being sold as the true article and it is a very good copy. It was sold during the normal working day when the guy should have been working. I can not prove that he knew it was fake but I am convinced he did. I have reported it to the company and it is currently under investigation. I paid cash and a fair price for the genuine article. What I have put to paper are the facts.

AltAccount

cossagepie wrote: »

Jeez that's a lot of questions to be answered.
The instrument was being sold as the true article and it is a very good copy. It was sold during the normal working day when the guy should have been working. I can not prove that he knew it was fake but I am convinced he did. I have reported it to the company and it is currently under investigation. I paid cash and a fair price for the genuine article. What I have put to paper are the facts.

What has his company got to do with it?
Why would you get someone in trouble with their employer because you couldn't spot a fake?
What if he's formally disciplined, will it get you a refund?

You have, as you admit, only suspicions and no proof.

That was a petulant and petty move IMHO.

Samba

cossagepie wrote: »

Jeez that's a lot of questions to be answered.
The instrument was being sold as the true article and it is a very good copy. It was sold during the normal working day when the guy should have been working. I can not prove that he knew it was fake but I am convinced he did. I have reported it to the company and it is currently under investigation. I paid cash and a fair price for the genuine article. What I have put to paper are the facts.

Did you attempt to contact him first?

rubadub

cossagepie wrote: »

. It was sold during the normal working day when the guy should have been working.

already questioned

AltAccount wrote: »

Do you know that it was during his normal working day? He may work shifts and have been on his way to/from work when he met you.

runawaybishop

cossagepie wrote: »

It was sold during the normal working day when the guy should have been working.
......
I have reported it to the company and it is currently under investigation.

Thats quite a nasty thing to do.

foggy_lad

runawaybishop wrote: »

Thats quite a nasty thing to do.

Yes indeed doing something else for your own benefit when you are supposed to be working for your employer is pretty dispicable!

runawaybishop

foggy_lad wrote: »

Yes indeed doing something else for your own benefit when you are supposed to be working for your employer is pretty dispicable!

Don't be daft. Contacting someones employer for something that is nothing to do with that employer purely to try and get them in the **** is just petty bollocks.

AltAccount

cossagepie wrote: »

I recently bought a musical instrument in a private sale that I later found out to be fake.

Some questions:

How long did it take you to work out it was fake?

How are you sure?

Where was it advertised - i.e. online, newspaper classifieds, Buy & Sell?

If online, has he any other instruments for sale under that username - i.e. Is he a habitual seller or was this a once off?

AltAccount

foggy_lad wrote: »

runawaybishop wrote: »

Thats quite a nasty thing to do.

Yes indeed doing something else for your own benefit when you are supposed to be working for your employer is pretty dispicable!

You've never picked up your dry cleaning or done anything similar during your work day?

foggy_lad

During lunch or while on breaks but never while on someone elses time!

Cabaal

runawaybishop wrote: »

Don't be daft. Contacting someones employer for something that is nothing to do with that employer purely to try and get them in the **** is just petty bollocks.

errr...but it is something to do with the employer?
If he was doing it on company time the employer is very much entitled to be aware of this.

runawaybishop

Cabaal wrote: »

errr...but it is something to do with the employer?
If he was doing it on company time the employer is very much entitled to be aware of this.

It's nothing to do with the employer - its pure vindictiveness.

cookie1977

Cabaal wrote: »

errr...but it is something to do with the employer?
If he was doing it on company time the employer is very much entitled to be aware of this.

There were other options before pressing the nuclear one first. Massive assumptions were made by the OP.

AltAccount

foggy_lad wrote: »

During lunch or while on breaks but never while on someone elses time!

Were these breaks taken during the standard working day?
If you had any company identifiers - uniform, logo'd vehicle etc - did every employee diligently ensure to conceal the logo every time they took a break off company property?

The Royal Scam

The fact that he wont reply to your calls and emails says to me he knew well it was fake and I think your right to be contacting the company. If it is a state run company and he is doing business on company hours (of course we dont know this is true) well then he sounds like a nice fella, looking after himself on taxpayers money

cookie1977

The Royal Scam wrote: »

The fact that he wont reply to your calls and emails says to me he knew well it was fake and I think your right to be contacting the company. If it is a state run company and he is doing business on company hours (of course we dont know this is true) well then he sounds like a nice fella, looking after himself on taxpayers money

Or he was on holidays and hasn't access to email or a phone? And whether he works in public or private sector shouldn't matter and has nothing to do with the OP's issue (not to mention tax payers money goes to both public and private sector businesses).

ejmaztec

The Royal Scam wrote: »

The fact that he wont reply to your calls and emails says to me he knew well it was fake and I think your right to be contacting the company. If it is a state run company and he is doing business on company hours (of course we dont know this is true) well then he sounds like a nice fella, looking after himself on taxpayers money

The use of the word "company" implies that it is nothing to do with the State, in my opinion anyway.

readytosnap

cookie1977 wrote: »

Or he was on holidays and hasn't access to email or a phone?

can you tell me where this holiday place is, i wanna go there

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

readytosnap wrote: »

can you tell me where this holiday place is, i wanna go there

What a pathetic comment. Have you never been away on holidays without a phone or Email? I do regularly. I can't see the relevance of your point.

readytosnap

Callie Huge Arcade wrote: »

Have you never been away on holidays without a phone or Email?

no never

dudara

Callie Huge Arcade wrote: »

What a pathetic comment. Have you never been away on holidays without a phone or Email? I do regularly. I can't see the relevance of your point.

@readytosnap, Callie Huge Arcade - I can't see the continued relevance of this - please stop this line of conversation immediately

dudara

cossagepie

AltAccount wrote: »

What has his company got to do with it?
Why would you get someone in trouble with their employer because you couldn't spot a fake?
What if he's formally disciplined, will it get you a refund?

You have, as you admit, only suspicions and no proof.

That was a petulant and petty move IMHO.

You're not the seller by any chance are you? You're doing a great job of defending him.
I tried all means of contacting him and warned him I would contact his employer before I did. I paid a lot of money when money is scarce. He had other musical equipment in the van. Whether it was fake or not I don't know. Since contacting his employer a line of communication has been opened with the seller which wouldn't have happened otherwise.
I have bought and sold lots of musical equipment over the years and never had any problems. I recently sold something that developed a fault after a couple of days and I refunded the money because that was the right thing to do.
If he's disciplined boohoo. He should have thought of that before he started selling from the van.

Icepick

If he keep selling fakes, report him to the revenue

P. Breathnach

Icepick wrote: »

If he keep selling fakes, report him to the revenue

I am not aware that the Revenue Commissioners have any role in relation to passing-off.

OP, if the item you purchased was represented by the vendor as being of as particular manufacture, and it was not, then you have a basis to have the contract rescinded on the basis of misrepresentation.

If I paid €5m for a violin because the vendor told me that it was a Stradivarius, and I learned that it was a copy, I would expect the court to vindicate me.

AltAccount

cossagepie wrote: »

You're not the seller by any chance are you? You're doing a great job of defending him.

Why thank you, but no, I'm not him

Any thoughts on these?

AltAccount wrote: »

Some questions:

How long did it take you to work out it was fake?

How are you sure?

Where was it advertised - i.e. online, newspaper classifieds, Buy & Sell?

If online, has he any other instruments for sale under that username - i.e. Is he a habitual seller or was this a once off?

cossagepie

AltAccount wrote: »

Why thank you, but no, I'm not him

Any thoughts on these?

How long did it take you to work out it was fake?

How are you sure?

Where was it advertised - i.e. online, newspaper classifieds, Buy & Sell?

If online, has he any other instruments for sale under that username - i.e. Is he a habitual seller or was this a once off?

A couple of weeks.

I'm 100% sure.

Online.

I've already said he was selling other musical equipment from the van. Under that username there is nothing for sale but that doesn't mean anything. He could have 50 usernames and if he has a problem with one he can just stop trading under it.

AltAccount

cossagepie wrote: »

I'm 100% sure.

How? Serial number, shop appraisal, a mate who knows about these things?

cossagepie

AltAccount wrote: »

How? Serial number, shop appraisal, a mate who knows about these things?

I'm 100% sure. That's all you need to know.

MagicMarker

What instrument is it and what model?

cossagepie

Sorry I'm not giving out any more information on this while I have an investigation into it taking place.

davo10

But you were quick to contact the guy's employer, why is it an issue to post type of instrument and how exactly you confirmed it was a fake?. A more cynical reader would surmise that you may not have had it independently verified and may have wrongly accused the seller.

AltAccount

cossagepie wrote: »

AltAccount wrote: »

How? Serial number, shop appraisal, a mate who knows about these things?

I'm 100% sure. That's all you need to know.

Why the secrecy? At the very least you could help stop another poster getting stung in the same manner.

I'm confused as to why you're being so cagey.

cossagepie

Ok guys I posted looking for advice and got some that was helpful. I'm not into going around in circles and having discussions about something that makes no difference to my original question.
If I get a refund and it is returned to the seller and there is a possibility of it going back up for sale I will post the details here to help prevent someone else getting stung.

MarkR

cossagepie wrote: »

I'm 100% sure. That's all you need to know.

It would be helpful to know. You wanted help? Two way street.

i71jskz5xu42pb

cossagepie wrote: »

I'm not into going around in circles and having discussions about something that makes no difference to my original question.

A wise move, there are people here with more time on their hands than they know what to do with, a waste of everybody's time (their time and your time). Take what useful advise you've been given and move on.

I hope it works out for you.

AltAccount

cossagepie wrote: »

Ok guys I posted looking for advice and got some that was helpful. I'm not into going around in circles and having discussions about something that makes no difference to my original question.
If I get a refund and it is returned to the seller and there is a possibility of it going back up for sale I will post the details here to help prevent someone else getting stung.

And what about the rest of the presumably fake instruments he had in the van?

If you're sure and you know how to spot them, it's unfair of you to expect others to give you advice, but for you to leave everyone else exposed to the same risk.

Whether you get a refund or not, if you're sure then share the info!

cossagepie

Alex Shallow Zombie wrote: »

A wise move, there are people here with more time on their hands than they know what to do with, a waste of everybody's time (their time and your time). Take what useful advise you've been given and move on.

I hope it works out for you.

Thanks Alex Shallow Zombie.....and never a truer word spoken . What takes place here is voyeurism by some people. It's like being able to participate in a soap opera by throwing in a line every now and then and trying to get a reaction.

Paulw

Even after all the posts in the thread, it's still going to be very very hard for you to get a refund since this was a private sale, unless, of course, the seller decides to be generous, or you take him to court and try to prove that he knew he was selling a fake.

Since it took you weeks to work out it was a fake, he may very well be able to claim he had no idea.

It could also be that he was selling multiple instruments since his band has fallen apart or something like that.

So, even after all the posts in this thread, you may not get your money back.

P. Breathnach

Paulw wrote: »

Even after all the posts in the thread, it's still going to be very very hard for you to get a refund since this was a private sale, unless, of course, the seller decides to be generous, or you take him to court and try to prove that he knew he was selling a fake.

Since it took you weeks to work out it was a fake, he may very well be able to claim he had no idea.

That is not sufficient defence. If he represented the instrument as being of a certain make, and even if he mistakenly believed he was telling the truth, it counts as misrepresentation, and the contract can be rescinded.

Paulw

P. Breathnach wrote: »

That is not sufficient defence. If he represented the instrument as being of a certain make, and even if he mistakenly believed he was telling the truth, it counts as misrepresentation, and the contract can be rescinded.

Yes, but to do that the OP would need to bring a civil action to court.