Women in the Priesthood?

skooterblue2

A while ago in our parish at home our priest was unavailable (for reasons I wont go into or be drawn into) for 6 months. Morning prayers (as we didnt have an available priest) were lead by a popular committee member. She has extensive organisation skills being a buyer for a top MNC retail chain, she has shown immense organisation skills as well in the parish. A regular church reader she carried out the duty for 6 months until our priest came back from Sabbatical.

It may swell the ranks, introduce new thinking, and give equal footing to women in the Church.

In this light and qualification Do you think we should have lady Priests (do away with Father and have Reverend) serving in our churches (they basically fill every other role and lead committees). Or would it split the Church as many of the Polish are conservative and wouldnt like it? Keep it in an international context coming from Rome

TheBody

I think the time is coming soon where there is going to have to be women priests and/or let male priests get married.

skooterblue2

You cant just have women priests in Ireland, it would have to be the consensus across the whole RC world. You could end up with another schism.

Happened before.... One pope in rome one in Avgion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avignon_Papacy

A second reformation could be on the cards. I was told at a wedding, this is the way it is ...., its been the same way for the last 2000 years and it will be the same way for the next 2000, and if you dont like it ... he never finished the sentence.

Clearly in Cork and Cloyne there are only 10 priests under the age of 65, it takes 7 years to train a priest. Priests will have to retire at 80 completly and bishops will have to hand over the crozier at 75. Radical recruitment will have to take place. I gather there will be a lot of young bishops coming in at 40 at that stage. I understand there are deacons there to spread the duties. They will be available for communities next year.

Since the death of Christ I believe the church has never been more in need of decisive leadership

georgieporgy

I wouldn't hold my breath. It's just not going to happen.

qrrgprgua

Its never going to Happen in the RCC because it would mean changing apostolic succession. Its the same succession that is in the Orthodox Church/Syriac/Aremian/Coptic etc...

totus tuus

The male priesthood is part of Catholic DOGMA, something which can NEVER be reversed.

Actor

Women in the priesthood is off the agenda. There are far more important things to be worrying about.

If those who advocate women "priests" would go and set up their own church, the Catholic Church would be far better off.

skooterblue2

Anyone here done science? 7 points on a graph in a continuous direction is a Trend.

Has anyone got a better idea, other than say mass, pray for vocations, join the young Priest society on how the trend can be reversed? By my calculations and allowing for wastage over the next 10 years each diocese will need to take on 15 priest a year to maintain the running of the church.

I mean quality candidates. Properly vetted, no embarrassing political connections, questionable incidents, background in community work, a proper primary degree, not every person is cut out to be a priest. No more days of all and sundry are welcome.

Rasheed

Can a woman become a deacon now?

skooterblue2

Actor wrote: »

Women in the priesthood is off the agenda. There are far more important things to be worrying about.

If those who advocate women "priests" would go and set up their own church, the Catholic Church would be far better off.

Please enlighten me on 4 items not related to replenishing the ranks of the priest hood that are more important than this time bomb.

Pretending that the problem is not there will not solve it.

Actor

Rasheed wrote: »

Can a woman become a deacon now?

No.

newmug

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Please enlighten me on 4 items not related to replenishing the ranks of the priest hood that are more important than this time bomb.

Pretending that the problem is not there will not solve it.

1) Worship of God
2) Getting your soul into heaven
3) Helping others get their souls into Heaven
4) Praying for those who need help with all other matters.

Actor

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Please enlighten me on 4 items not related to replenishing the ranks of the priest hood that are more important than this time bomb.

Pretending that the problem is not there will not solve it.

The future is a smaller, truer church. Women "priests" is not a matter for consideration now, or in the long term.

Please go away and fund-raise to set up your own church. That, or join one of the numerous Protestant off-shoots that meets your requirements.

skooterblue2

Actor wrote: »

If those who advocate women "priests" would go and set up their own church, the Catholic Church would be far better off.

A Presbyterian minister 30 years ago in Cork read from the alter one Sunday. He never checked with advisors, never put out feelers, just came out with it.

"I want all Freemasons to leave my church, you and your families are no longer welcome underneath this church and never cross under my threshold again". The congregation we not shocked by his revelations but by the way he came out. Now the Reverend expected one or two families to leave. 60% of his congregation left to go to the Church of Ireland the next Sunday where they were welcomed in. It wasnt the poorer ones that left. The Church never recovered its numbers again.

There is a lesson to be learned in never saying never.

smcgiff

skooterblue2 wrote: »

a second reformation could be on the cards

Why the need for a second one... Amy major problems with the first one?

Actor

skooterblue2 wrote: »

A Presbyterian minister 30 years ago in Cork read from the alter one Sunday. He never checked with advisors, never put out feelers, just came out with it.

"I want all Freemasons to leave my church, you and your families are no longer welcome underneath this church and never cross under my threshold again". The congregation we not shocked by his revelations but by the way he came out. Now the Reverend expected one or two families to leave. 60% of his congregation left to go to the Church of Ireland the next Sunday where they were welcomed in. It wasnt the poorer ones that left. The Church never recovered its numbers again.

There is a lesson to be learned in never saying never.

Fair play to him. Freemasonry is the work of the devil. Catholics (and, as you say, many Protestants) are barred from joining.

smcgiff

Actor wrote: »

Fair play to him. Freemasonry is the work of the devil. Catholics (and, as you say, many Protestants) are barred from joining.

Banned by whom? Not the freemasons.

Actor

smcgiff wrote: »

Banned by whom? Not the freemasons.

The Freemasons are in the business of deceiving souls. The Church is in the business of saving souls.

skooterblue2

How is the Church going to lead at a community level without massive vocations? This is the root of the problem. Current dissent is to let it happen and have a purer church. My uncle a dyed in the wool catholic went to a church of Ireland service there a few months back. Said he saw very little difference.

skooterblue2

smcgiff wrote: »

Banned by whom? Not the freemasons.

Freemasonry is supposedly off limits Catholics. But I have been told the biggest concentration of Lodges in the World is in Rome.

Where do you draw the line on Freemasonry? The Knights of Columbanus are Freemasons. They have their lists, garbs, clicques (Department of Health).
Every third Italian Priest is a member of P2 (Italian Freemasonry). Grand Orient (Europe). Grand Lodge (Global). Orange Order (Global). Ancient Order of Hibernians (Ireland and US), Then there is Opus Dei. Skull and Bones332 and Trilateral Commission Bilderband are outside my area of Interest,

Its like Icecream there is a flavour for everyone (660 approx)

skooterblue2

newmug wrote: »

1) Worship of God
2) Getting your soul into heaven
3) Helping others get their souls into Heaven
4) Praying for those who need help with all other matters.

So the Grand plan is let the church fall apart/subdivide/because it will be better?
Just to warn ye pass out the sick buckets for those of ye with weak stomachs.

1)Ensuring the survival of the church by Education and Dialogue (including women priests and marriage for priests and greater roles for the laypeople)
2)Inclusion of all Catholics on the who feel marginalised by the faith (eg gays, lapsed faith, divorced people who have remarried, ladies who have had abortions, former brothers sisters priest who left their ministeries etcetc) Pedophiles are not on my to do list
3) Making reparations to States worst hit, who have had to cover the costs victim abuse (Canada, Germany, Ireland, Dioceses of Boston)
4) A More transparent Governance including a "spring clean" of the Vatican bank

IF these were in place, vocations would rise (5 years tops, the end of vocations problems), parishes would swell, more harmonious relations between church and states, perceived shady dealing exposed.


1) the worship of god will always happen
2) I voted for Fianna Fail once too often when I was young and ignorant, that's a stain that wont come off my soul.
3) by cutting people out its a bit of an own goal
4) Prayer only gets you so far reaching out a hand ensures full contact

skooterblue2

smcgiff wrote: »

Why the need for a second one... Amy major problems with the first one?

Well You have a much more educated population. Once upon a time you only had a few people in a village could read now third level education is now to the vast majority to those who want it. A few years ago 60% of Irish people had further education (past Leaving Cert level). More access to the Media (Internet, Radio, printed press, Television). Its a changed society.

It has nothing to do with the first one not working but if you dont see anything wrong with empty pews then you then you havent worked out the problem. IF you think the Irish embassy in the Vatican (not Rome Diff) was axed for financial reasons then you arent up to speed. A quick history lesson, before the reformation all sort of abuses went on. Then guys like Calvin and Martin Luther (not the black guy), decided we cant put up with this, screw this for a game of house, lets go start our own church. Then Rome decided to cop on and decided to reorganise the church and teaching. Vatican 2 (document issued by the Pope on modernising the church cira 1950's) has been clawed back. Major things like practical clothing for clergy, clergy being allowed to visit their families, the Mass should be said in the language of the people (as opposed to Latin(Different to Italian)). Some people argue this is being clawed back with the reintroduction of the Tridentine mass (latin).

While I find Actors comments hostile, they are are accurate that 2000 years of Doctorine will not flip over night to ensure the survival of the greater part of the church. I would fear Ireland would be prey to cults like Scientology and others. If you think Ireland is religiously conservative you should see Poland. Polish demography are much younger and larger than us. Age and education wise they travel more and have now better access to education now then when we joined the EU.

I dont think anyone on this page will argue that something will have to give within the next 10 years. Either Catholic Church will change doctorine (unlikely), the Catholic Church will collapse (its creaking), There will be a mass exodus towards either Atheism or Church of Ireland (its happening), Ireland will be ripe for harvesting by cults(alarming).

skooterblue2

Actor wrote: »

The Freemasons are in the business of deceiving souls. The Church is in the business of saving souls.

I suppose the Catholic Church in Youghal jumped out of the ground itself? you can find masonic etching in the stone work.
Wasnt Daniel O Connell a Freemason, the great Liberator and unCrowned King of Ireland?

So who was against freemasons? Well Hitler in his wisdom decided to round them up and put them in concentration camps, killing 200k of them. Which was only fair I suppose as they did have a few plots to kill him.

St. Josemaría Escrivá, Opus Dei founder was none too keen on them either. Wasnt he seen arm and arm with Hitler in films and resettling Nazi's in Argentina? I believe they were of assistance to the Pinochet government in Chile. My personal favourite is the abduction of children in Argentina by a blonde haired Ayran Captain, guess his parents must have gotten lost. Interesting who was running their Halfway house. I dont have his name at hand but he negotiated Argentinian surrender to the British in the Falklands.

I wonder who told you Actor all these myths about the Freemasonry?

georgieporgy

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Anyone here done science? 7 points on a graph in a continuous direction is a Trend.

Has anyone got a better idea, other than say mass, pray for vocations, join the young Priest society on how the trend can be reversed? By my calculations and allowing for wastage over the next 10 years each diocese will need to take on 15 priest a year to maintain the running of the church.

I mean quality candidates. Properly vetted, no embarrassing political connections, questionable incidents, background in community work, a proper primary degree, not every person is cut out to be a priest. No more days of all and sundry are welcome.

What usually works best is an increase in the number of martyrs.
Reducing the number of abortions is also helpful. Our future priests start their life in the womb. God can only go so far in answering our prayers for more vocations to the priesthood - when he sends us a new batch of priests we should refrain from killing them (like the way they killed His prophets in Old Testament times).

Actor

skooterblue2 wrote: »

I wonder who told you Actor all these myths about the Freemasonry?

What "myth" do you find issue with?

martinedwards

meanwhile, back at the original questions........

as a prod, we've had women ordained in several denominations for quite a while now.

and they are doing as good a job as any of the men.

our minister is Female and she has as many good or bad points as any man.

as to RC priests being allowed to marry, the whole celibacy lark was added in waaaaaay down the line. The First Lateran council in 1123 I believe.......

certainly nothing in the Bible demanding celibacy...... suggesting it as a good thing, yes, but not a rule. Peter was definitely married........

and yes, the RC church is a huge supertanker of an organisation and turning it round to something as shockingly radical as female or married clergy would take a LOOOOOOOONG time, but never say never.....

martinedwards

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Then guys like Calvin and Martin Luther (not the black guy), decided we cant put up with this, screw this for a game of house, lets go start our own church.

I think not.

Luther was RC and had no wish to leave. he wanted discussion and clarification on the points that were seriously wrong with the Catholic church at the time.

OK, he was excommunicated, but he had no intention of starting a new church. he wanted to address flaws from within.

Penn

georgieporgy wrote: »

What usually works best is an increase in the number of martyrs.
Reducing the number of abortions is also helpful. Our future priests start their life in the womb. God can only go so far in answering our prayers for more vocations to the priesthood - when he sends us a new batch of priests we should refrain from killing them (like the way they killed His prophets in Old Testament times).

With respect, that wouldn't change the number or priests. If you got rid of abortion, it's more likely that the same percentage of children would grow up to be priests as there are now (eg, if 0.5% out of 1million children become priests (5000 children), then 0.5% of 1.1million children will become priests (5500 children)). However, that would also increase the population, so getting rid of abortion or even increasing abortion would not affect the priest-to-population ration.

Not trying to discuss abortion here as that's a completely different issue, just that it's not like the only children ever aborted were going to grow up to be priests. If anything, parents who've had abortions probably weren't overly religious, and so their children would have been less likely to be priests anyway due to not growing up in an overly religious environment.

georgieporgy

OK. lets keep abortion then.:pac:

We'll probably just have to rely on martyrs for a revival of the faith like the early christians.

Onesimus

It is banned by the universal Magisterium. It is something the Church protects but cannot change.

Women cannot act in the person of Christ anymore than a man can act in the person of the Virgin Mary without looking like he's off his trolley.

Women deacons in scripture were not ordained and never to be ordained like male deacons. One could safely say that they were the earliest form of the ''Nun''/''sister'' religious. St.Iranaeus an Early Church father reminds them of that. This is most likely because they were wanting women deacons and priests back then too. And there were heretics back then who had abandoned the faith and began to ordain women. And they are still at it today. Nothing has changed in the human heart. The same old errors prop up with new labels but are generally the same errors. I reccommend you read Ven.Archbishop Fulton sheens book ''Old errors, New Labels''.

As for the Church being small, listen to what St.Athanasius has to say about that no matter how small the Church may become, it will always remain the true Church of Jesus Christ. Your forgetting the words of Jesus who said that the gates of hades will not prevail against it ( the Church ). So therefore trust in God and just pray that he will send good and Holy Priests to us all. There are ways of sparking vocations without an attempt at changing the Faith itself, which cannot be done.

Jellicoe

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Freemasonry is supposedly off limits Catholics. But I have been told the biggest concentration of Lodges in the World is in Rome.

Where do you draw the line on Freemasonry? The Knights of Columbanus are Freemasons. They have their lists, garbs, clicques (Department of Health).
Every third Italian Priest is a member of P2 (Italian Freemasonry).

Intresting, any reputable data / links for this

Jellicoe

I could not care less about 'secrets', just facts

I'm specifcially intrested in the following claims, and the data/facts backing them up.

"But I have been told the biggest concentration of Lodges in the World is in Rome."

"Every third Italian Priest is a member of P2 (Italian Freemasonry)"

Jellicoe

I'm specifcially intrested in your following claims, and the data/facts backing them up.

"But I have been told the biggest concentration of Lodges in the World is in Rome."

"Every third Italian Priest is a member of P2 (Italian Freemasonry)"

Jellicoe

lol I've heard from a 'reliable source' that Martians are hiding on the moon, but its a secret, you'll have to join up.

Jellicoe

Its your claim as a fact not mine, should be quite easy to provide a reputable link proving it so, or points on a google earth map proving theres more in Rome than anywhere else etc. etc.

Snappy Smurf

skooterblue2 wrote: »

How is the Church going to lead at a community level without massive vocations? This is the root of the problem. Current dissent is to let it happen and have a purer church. My uncle a dyed in the wool catholic went to a church of Ireland service there a few months back. Said he saw very little difference.

We will get by.

Just as in days of old, priests rode around on horseback, so in the future, priests might drive from one place to the other in high performance vehicles, like the VW Golf R or perhaps the Vauxhall Insignia VXR:

Jellicoe

skooterblue2 wrote:

"But I have been told the biggest concentration of Lodges in the World is in Rome."

"Every third Italian Priest is a member of P2 (Italian Freemasonry)"

As suspected, no facts, nada, just fantasy.

Sonics2k

Snappy Smurf wrote: »

We will get by.

Just as in days of old, priests rode around on horseback, so in the future, priests might drive from one place to the other in high performance vehicles, like the VW Golf R or perhaps the Vauxhall Insignia VXR:

I'm pretty sure the €30k or so they cost could go to much better things than getting a Priest from house to church.

Snappy Smurf

Sonics2k wrote: »

I'm pretty sure the €30k or so they cost could go to much better things than getting a Priest from house to church.

Emergency sick calls would require a high performance vehicle, given the greater distances involved. Plus the Masses would be offered in various places scattered across the land.

They cars could be fitted with red and blue flashing lights and sirens. :P

Sonics2k

For the love of bacon sandwiches, please be trolling.

Nobody can possibly be this ignorant.

Jellicoe

skooterblue2 wrote: »

How is the Church going to lead at a community level without massive vocations?

The same way they always did, from few to many, to very few again in penal times, to huge vocations in the 50/60's to few again. They'll manage.

skooterblue2 wrote: »

This is the root of the problem.

All problems ? one problem ?

skooterblue2 wrote: »

My uncle a dyed in the wool catholic went to a church of Ireland service there a few months back. Said he saw very little difference.

Apart from the protestant beliefs.

Jellicoe

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Trust me freemasonry is fact not fantasy

Of course it is, now you've the grasp of what a fact it, please provide us with some to back up the following claims :

Originally Posted by skooterblue2

"But I have been told the biggest concentration of Lodges in the World is in Rome."

"Every third Italian Priest is a member of P2 (Italian Freemasonry)"

Jellicoe

skooterblue2 wrote: »

If you cant see the empty pews in Ireland then you can't see the problem.

When they let in a deluge into the seminary's convents and monastery's with out quality checks..... guess you must have missed the church scandals over here or did you miss the Diocese of Boston altogether?

Ever wonder why the Church of Ireland isnt been dragged down by the Pedophiles scandals?

Empty pews will never bother those who go to mass for their own genuine religious reasons, and who are well able and genuinely willing to differentiate between the vast majority of decent clergy and the small minority of bad and incompetent clergy.

Jellicoe

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Then they wonder why the ranks and file are filled with Pedos, Terrorists, and linked to suspicious deaths of Popes and general scandals. You wouldnt get the like of it on Father Ted.

Those that left the church could differentiate between decent clergy and the gross incompetence.

So in your estimation what % of current Clergy in Ireland are "Pedos, Terrorists, and linked to suspicious deaths of Popes and general scandals ?"

skooterblue2 wrote: »

The current congress are member of the travelling community, the ones too young enough to know better, too old to know better and not educated enough to question the system

So in your estimation what % of current mass goers fall into these categories ?

martinedwards

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Ever wonder why the Church of Ireland isnt been dragged down by the Pedophiles scandals?

because the C of I doesn't demand that it's clergy are single men.

at a guess, 95% of C of I clergy are married.

they get thier below waistband kicks at home with thier spouse.

if you have a 16 year old bloke who looks at the life of blokes only, no women and no CHANCE of women, and he thinks "yup! that's the life for me!!" then the percentage of those fine young men with........ tendancies....... are going to be higher than the C of I.

there HAVE been problems in the C of I.

I know of one where the priest (married with kids) had a penchant for teenaged boys on the side.

and where I say know OF, I mean personally know. I KNOW him, his wife and I've played throw and catch ball with his kids when they were little.....

and no, I WON'T give names and dates.

but it happens.

but LESS because MOST of the C of I clergy are married.

and what the ******* has married clergy got to do with Masons?

PLEASE take your trolling away to a Masons thread.

Benny_Cake

martinedwards wrote: »

and what the ******* has married clergy got to do with Masons?

PLEASE take your trolling away to a Masons thread.

To some people, everything relates to Masons. It's a pity that they have to drag Christianity into it to justify what is a paranoid fantasy. It really is the classic conspiracy theory, most Masons would be amazed to know they possess such diabolical cunning.

Actor

On Catholics being a member of the Freemasons:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_ban_of_Freemasonry

Let there be no doubt that Catholics should not join or their souls are in state of mortal sin (i.e. automatic demotion to hell if you don't change your ways and repent).

Getting back to women in the priesthood: it's off the agenda. Period. Far more important things to be worrying about (such as wiping the church clean of sexual deviancy).

Actor

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Its the scale on which it happens in the Catholic Church that is alarming.

Figures??? You'll find that numbers don't lie.

Yes it's alarming, not because paedophilia was more prevalent in the Church compared to other settings; but because those who inflicted the abuse were in positions of great respect responsibility. That's why it was alarming.

Actor

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Somebody said it was part of Dogma? If it was created by a man it can be removed by a man. The problem will be consensus. I still dont understand why as community leaders we cant have chicks on the Alter? The C of I dont have a problem with it? Jews have female Rabbi's (open to grammatical correction). Neither Denomination seem to have any great problems with them.

Look at them! They do it, so should we! ("they" being a church founded on the family values of Henry VIII)

This is not a reasoned argument.

totus tuus

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Somebody said it was part of Dogma? If it was created by a man it can be removed by a man. The problem will be consensus. I still dont understand why as community leaders we cant have chicks on the Alter? The C of I dont have a problem with it? Jews have female Rabbi's (open to grammatical correction). Neither Denomination seem to have any great problems with them.

It shows how much you know about Catholicism, not even the Pope himself can reverse Dogma.

Anglicans leave Church of England for Rome over women clergy etc.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9178325/More-Anglicans-leave-Church-of-England-for-Rome.html

totus tuus

skooterblue2 wrote: »

I admire Henry VIII, a true family man.

there was a poll in the Indo year that suggest that the vast majority of people disagreed with current church teaching on homosexuality, women priests and Marriage for priests. That was only the tip of the Iceberg

Good for them....let them join one of the other tens of thousands of churches out there!