Ideal Receiver Box

Johnboy1951

I realise this is a bit off-topic for this section of Boards, but no other section appears to be any more suitable, due to the specific nature of the topic.
I had considered the PC Building section, but saw no related threads there and deduced it was more for mainstream application and not something like this specific requirement.
Of course I might be wrong .....

Due to the lack of a Saorview & Freesat combi box at present, and the desire to have at least two tuners for each, as well as other 'services' such as internet access and maybe the ability to multiplex a TP/Mux on a dedicated LAN segment, and of course the cost of such a commercial box if it should ever become available, I am researching what it might take to implement this by a home-built unit.

That means specifying & sourcing hardware and software etc etc.
Initially I will concentrate on using Linux operating system and available software, which will help keep the cost down, if it does all that is needed. Quite a bit of research will be needed here ..... especially around MHEG5 compatibility.

The DTT tuner side seems to be easily addressed with cheap USB connected tuners easily available, or other devices.
The Sat tuners seem to be a different story ... maybe there are some devices available for a PC like the Dreambox tuner plug-in modules.
http://www.dreamboxshops.co.uk/tuner-module-to-dreambox.htm

The hardware spec for the PC is another matter. Particularly if the multiplexed stream would have to be recoded to reduce LAN bandwidth.
I guess if the original content was to be multiplexed without recoding that would reduce the PC requirement considerably, and might allow for a 'silent' build.

It must be obvious from what I have written that I am just starting out in my research on this topic.
I thought it prudent to post at an early stage before I go off on tangents and waste lots of effort

I would like to hear from others who have thought about, or - even better - built something like this.

The more info I can gather together, the easier the decision will be.

Thanks for reading.

Johnboy1951

I have been searching for suitable DVB-S/2 cards and the most suitable seems to be something like this dual tuner PCI-e card as it is compatible with both Windows and Linux

http://www.tbsdtv.com/products/tbs6981-dvb-s2-dual-tuner-pcie-card.html

(Thank you to the member who confirmed the suitability of this range for the purpose ..... much appreciated)

The full contents of the tuned transponder are made available which is what I want for my idea of multiplexing the TP ...

Even more if you want to make full use of the recording capability of TBS6981, you may record two whole TS(Transponder Stream),one of which could contains maximum ten, twelve SD or HD TV channels into your PC hard disk.

onwards with the research ...

Hexen

Although I've no experience of building such a device I'm also very interested in this project and thinking of trying something along the same lines.

In regard to MHEG5 compatibility, according to the forum poster Watty:

DVB viewer with MHEG5 plug in does Freesat and Saorview MHEG5 at the same time

Here's a link to a youtube presentation of MHEG5 on DVB viewer

Here's a list of features for this software

Hexen

In regard to TV tuners - the one you've linked to above and the quad version appear to be well regarded from the limited amount of commentary I've been able to find. There are some videos on setting these up available on youtube (e.g.)

As I said I don't have any experience with this kind of set-up and there are many people here who are more knowledgeable than I but I had thought it might be easier to get some kind of decoder that would convert the satellite signal to some kind of ip format for distribution over an ethernet network to multiple computers. There's something like this with for the US market with the range of HDhomerun devices and they can, apparently, multicast the full contents of a given channel, but they don't, as of yet, support dvb-s2.

There are some Elgato devices that seem to operate in a similar manner and will decode dvb-s2 but they appear to be very expensive for what you get (no gigabyte ethernet nic for instance) ... although I do think that this is really the right kind of solution for getting sat/terrestrial content to multiple devices on a network.

As I've posted previously, there may be some devices appearing soon for residential use that will convert satellite signals for an ip network in this manner but they're not out yet and the existing hardware is designed for hotels and the like and appears to be very expensive.

If then you build a media server/htpc with dual tuner cards for dvb-t and dvb-s2 it's not clear to me how you could make those cards accessible or stream their contents on a network. So how to do an IPTV streaming server that will make, potentially, a whole transponder stream available to a given device on a home network?

Hexen

Mediaportal will stream the content to other devices on a network with a server/client set-up. DVB viewer server also. And MythstreamTV is also available for Linux.

Hexen

Interesting thread on dvbviewer and hardware used

Hexen

Again for linux there's vdr and yavdr.

A German boards' poster started an interesting thread on the use of yadvr in Ireland for dvb-t and dvb-s2 broadcasts last January.

There was then an experimental plug-in to integrate MHEG5 and red button functionality with vdr

Johnboy1951

Hexen ... thanks for the links .... have some reading to do

There is software available which I have used to multicast the complete Saorview mux on the LAN.
It is not difficult to do.

The Sat TP would be similar I believe.
The difficulty with the Sat might be getting programme info transmitted, but I have not looked at it.

EDIT:

Info received on the BGT3600:

The BGT3600 is provided with Linux drivers.
The complete contents of the transport streams are available to the OS.
The delivery charge to the Republic of Ireland is available via courier at £20.25 and EU postage at £9.21.

Hexen

Hi Johnboy,

What software did you use to multicast Saorview?

Both Blackgold and TBS appear to make excellent tuner cards. Merely from reading various message boards etc (e.g.) it would appear, however, that TBS are generally seen as providing superior support for linux users (see their support forum). Other posters here might have more direct and relevant experience to comment upon of course.

Also, this thread details the experiences of mythusers trying to get a BG card (T3650) to work. See also this mythbuntu thread on linux drivers for the BGT3650.

There are also reports of problems with the linux drivers for the BGT3620.

Also it would appear that if, for instance, you were to use Ubuntu with the BGT3600 you might be stuck with an older release for a while (11.10 instead of 12.04).

Edit:
In regard to the last point there appears to be a similar issue with the TBS 6981. I use the dual tuner 6981 under Linux with MythTV, works very well with resonably snappy channel changes.
However the drivers are not in the mainline kernel so you have to recompile every time you get a Linux kernel update. On my Atom ION machine this takes a while...
If I was buying one now, I'd go with the either the quad TBS card, or maybe the 2xT2+2xS2 from Blackgold (if anyone managed to get it working correctly under Myth) as I miss Dave

Hexen

Is it correct, as detailed here, that the freesat epg is transmitted in a separate radio channel

Johnboy1951

Hexen wrote: »

Is it correct, as detailed here, that the freesat epg is transmitted in a separate radio channel

I was unaware of that .... might be very useful

Freesat Info Freesat Clear 10530 3603 3600 3603 2010-03-07

Last updated 2010-03-07 ?????

Maybe there has been no change .... only in content

What software did you use to multicast Saorview?

I have used two ..... mumudvb which has built-in SAP server and also dvblast with mini sap server (videolan).

The biggest hassle I had was isolating the multicast streams from the rest of the LAN. I got a separate cheap router for the purpose.

Regarding Linux drivers .... I haven't looked into it deeply ... but if the source code is available then I expect the driver can easily be used regardless which kernel is in use.
I won't worry about that too much presently.

Regarding the BGT3600 .... I came across a long thread about this card late last night/early this am (:D) which being mostly concerned about the late availability, it did show that a lot of people were having difficulty with it.
Reading through the thread, I have the impression that some of the problems were due to the hardware used .... conflicts on some motherboards due to the PCI-e slot used; bad drivers --- older versions not uninstalled before installing the new drivers needed; but also wimpy PSUs which were not capable of supplying the necessary power for the LNBs!
That card needs a good PSU, with a dedicated six pin power connector ..... some were using workarounds such as an adapter cable for the standard Molex plug.
It is difficult most of the time, when reading on line, to separate tuner card problems from general hardware unsuitability.

BTW, thanks for adding all the info to this thread.
It is becoming a real resource

Johnboy1951

I downloaded the Linux drivers for the BGT 3600 (3.2 kernel) to have a look at what they provide.

http://shop.blackgold.tv/Support/Current-Drivers

Although they claim these as Ubuntu drivers, it seems to me they are Linux drivers, so it matters not a whit which distro you use.

I compared their list with what I have already available in this install ..... only two I don't have apparently .....

dvb-core.ko ............ yes
tda18272.ko ........... no ... have tda18271.ko at present
stv6110x.ko ........... yes
stv090x.ko ............. yes
lnbp21.ko ............... yes
s5h1411.ko ............. yes
tda10048.ko ............ yes

for dvb-t2 & dvb-c
cxd2820r.ko ............. yes

saa7231_core.ko ....... no ... only have saa7164 so need these this
saa7231_drv.ko ......... no

Hexen

Well, I know that I said in this thread that I was considering something along the same lines as you but the more I read your initial and subsequent posts ... :eek:


All I want to set up is a backend server/media server (on a very archaic machine stuck in the attic) whose media content, including recorded music and movies and live TV, I could access either through a series of frontends connected to TVs or through various mobile devices and pcs. Aside from the live TV, I'm basically doing that now anyway ... (also all running windows software)

I'm assuming (read hoping) that I wouldn't have to 'multicast a TP/mux on a dedicated LAN segment' if I want a number of different front ends to be able to change channels and record items simultaneously (granted that the number of tuners will be a limiting factor)?

Wow. That multicast of the Saorview dvb-t signal is very impressive. The so-called 'Angry Technician' had a few blog posts on multicasting using DVBlast that were interesting (here, here and here).

It's way outside my competence but I'm glad that, at least for you, the linux drivers aren't an issue in regard to the BGT3600. However, I have to ask given that the usb tuners work for dvb-t/t2 would it not make more sense to just get one or several dedicated dual dvb-s2 tuner cards rather than a combination dvb-t/t2 dvb-s2 card? It just seems that there's less that could go wrong with a simpler card ...

On the need for a good PSU unit and adequate power supply for the lnb that's a really good point and something else to add to my shopping list. I had thought that would only have been a major issue if you were using disecq (or, I mean, a motorised satellite).

Thanks for starting this thread, it's given me a lot to think about ...

Hexen

Actually, the question I want to ask is if, with the set-up I have in mind, will it be necessary to lay a dedicated and separate ethernet network (which is how I'm reading your reference to a dedicated LAN segment) just to carry live TV if I want to keep up connection speeds both within the home network and to the internet? If it is an issue could CAT6 cable (with gigabyte switches, routers, etc) deal with the data throughput of combined live TV, file-sharing, internet access, etc. or not? I don't want to kill household connectivity just by turning on the TV ...

Hexen

Although this might only be relevant for commercial sat receiver boxes, on Freesat EPG and related issues see this and this (both informative posts by boards' poster STB).

Hexen

Current software used to collect EPG data, for windows at least, is a programme called EPG Collector. There's a Linux version which also does MHEG5 [Edit: for New Zealand only]

Johnboy1951

I'm assuming (read hoping) that I wouldn't have to 'multicast a TP/mux on a dedicated LAN segment' if I want a number of different front ends to be able to change channels and record items simultaneously (granted that the number of tuners will be a limiting factor)?

You should have no need to multicast the TP ..... use the 'server' to tune in to the programme you want to see and only make that one available on the LAN.

The difference is, taking the present Saorview as the example, that only one TV programme will be available to watch.
Multiplexing the Saorview mux makes all chosen channels available from the one tuner ...... and can include TV and/or radio by set up choice.

I am looking at a twin tuner DTT set up because at some time in the future there will be a second Saorview mux .... it might be a long time, but I don't know. So I will have the option to multicast both muxes with the twin.

One the stream is multicast, ALL channels on the multicast will be available to all PCs on the LAN and each PC could theoretically record all of them simultaneously. (of course this is not practical, but you get the point)

The situation with SAT is more complicated because of the number of TPs .... but if the tuned TP is multicast, then that makes all channels on that TP available, and not just one.

However, I have to ask given that the usb tuners work for dvb-t/t2 would it not make more sense to just get one or several dedicated dual dvb-s2 tuner cards rather than a combination dvb-t/t2 dvb-s2 card? It just seems that there's less that could go wrong with a simpler card ...

I have a single tuner USB dongle which works very well .... but they are made down to a price so not something I would wish to rely on in this rig.
If considering a PCI(-e) card then space in the box is a consideration.
A card like the BGT3600 seems to be a good compromise to me ... connects everything to a single PCI-e slot.

The only drawback I see with it is that if one tuner goes down then all will be replaced.

Everything is a compromise

Actually, the question I want to ask is if, with the set-up I have in mind, will it be necessary to lay a dedicated and separate ethernet network (which is how I'm reading your reference to a dedicated LAN segment) just to carry live TV if I want to keep up connection speeds both within the home network and to the internet? If it is an issue could CAT6 cable (with gigabyte switches, routers, etc) deal with the data throughput of combined live TV, file-sharing, internet access, etc. or not? I don't want to kill household connectivity just by turning on the TV ...

By separate LAN segment I meant an isolated section of the LAN (would have different IP address range) for the multicast set up. It prevents the multicast from interfering with the main LAN when it is unused.

Laying a separate cat5e or cat6 cable run for the TV would be the best solution I imagine.
It would separate the TV traffic completely from the other 'normal' LAN/internet traffic.

Having a few PCs receiving a few HD TV channels would heavily load the LAN, so a physically separate LAN for the TV/video stuff might be worth considering.

Please be aware I am not making definitive statements above, but expressing an opinion.

I am open to correction

Hexen

Just to clarify your set-up refers to a logical rather physical segmentation of the lan by the assigning of an ip address through another router? (As cribbed from last section here)

Hexen

Article on setting up MythTV system in Ireland by Karl Jeacle

Johnboy1951

Hexen wrote: »

Just to clarify your set-up refers to a logical rather physical segmentation of the lan by the assigning of an ip address through another router? (As cribbed from last section here)

yes, that is the present set up.

if I can I will look at doubling up the cat5 cable to make things a bit better ..... by physically separating the traffic.

Hexen

This may interest you:

DVB Streaming:

I was looking into streaming a full DVB-S transponder into individual Multicast groups, one per program into the local area network. For doing this you will need a budget card because the full featured ones are told not to pass on the full stream in case of the pseudo filter pid 8192. Trying to demux and stream a full transponder with VLC lead to ~70% CPU on a 1.2Ghz Celeron. As demuxing a MPEG-2 TS (Transport Stream) is not a really hard task i was wondering what the problem was. VLC used up to 300Mbyte memory which was also very astonishing.
So i wrote a little application providing the following features:

• Full transponder streaming
• DVB-T/C/S/S2 support (S2 via S2API)
• UDP or RTP multicast streaming
• SAP/SDP Announcements (VLC Compatible) for multicast streams
• HTTP streaming for unicast setups
• High optimization for multiple transponders per machine

It does now what it should with astonishing few CPU cycles. Its not rock solid software but for the purposes i am using it for it works flawless.

Hexen

MuMuDVB, which you said that you had used to multi-stream dvb-t looks very interesting and they have support for DVB-S2. Is it hard to use?

I'm not going to try it initially but I'd love to be able to emulate what you're setting out to do here. It is a more complete solution.

Johnboy1951

Hexen wrote: »

MuMuDVB, which you said that you had used to multi-stream dvb-t looks very interesting and they have support for DVB-S2. Is it hard to use?

I'm not going to try it initially but I'd love to be able to emulate what you're setting out to do here. It is a more complete solution.

Not hard to use at all.
It does take a little messing with a config file to get familiar with it, but after that it just seems to work without incident.

You can also specifically specify the channels you wish to multicast if that is a preference ..... for instance radio channels can be excluded, or only a couple of TV channels sent and not the others .... contents of the conf file could be something like this ...

#--------------- My Selected Channels ---------
#
##	Ip adress
ip=239.255.0.101
##	Name of the channel
name=RTE One
##	The PMT pid
pids=1101
#
##	Ip adress
ip=239.255.0.102
##	Name of the channel
name=RTE Two
##	The PMT pid
pids=1202

It also has CAM support and other options.

It is fun to play with.
BTW, you can run it using only one PC, and view what it is 'sending' on that same PC by using the multicast address to see it - with VLC or such.
The channels are selectable from the VLC playlist as it lists them from the SAP announce - under local network here.

This is what I get ... this one from DVBlast:

Hexen

Thanks!

I'll try that when I get the chance on an old laptop that I've installed ubuntu onto. I also picked up one of those cheap dvb-t dongles with the terrible aerials (works in some parts of the house though).

Johnboy1951

Hexen wrote: »

Thanks!

I'll try that when I get the chance on an old laptop that I've installed ubuntu onto. I also picked up one of those cheap dvb-t dongles with the terrible aerials (works in some parts of the house though).

You are lucky to be in a strong signal area ...... I have to connect mine to an external aerial

Johnboy1951

I have posted some hardware details here, that I am considering ...... hoping to get replies telling me where I have gone wrong in my choice of hardware BEFORE I spend what little I have available.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=80771166#post80771166