Legal holiday

gozunda

Am writing short story atm - what is the term for holiday taken by Barristers / Courts around August? Is this also taken by other legal professionals eg solicitors etc.

Any detail appreciated v

Tom Young

August and September. It's to tend to our farms and estates during summer season .... Don't you know.

nuac

1. This holiday is called the Long Vacation ( to distinquish it from holidays at Christmas, Easter etc.

2. The LV comprises Aug and Sept. It goes back to the time barristers were landed gentry and returned to their estates to save the harvest.

3. The Circuit, High and Supreme Courts do not have any normal sittings during the LV. The High Court has some vacation sittings to deal with urgent matters, and both the CC and HC will organise a sitting at short notice for r.g. an urgent injunction.

4. Barristers can avail of the LV - the Law Library is usually closed for it. In fact many work thru part of dealing with paper work etc. At one time a barrister could get very upsei if asked to do something during the LV. They felt that if they were on holidays that the rest of the world was also. That is changing.

5. The District Courts work normally in September - busy time with licensing applications. Normal District Courts do not operate in Aug, but a DJ sits one day a week in each DC area to deal with urgent matters.

6. Solicitors offices generally work same times as other professional offices. Most offices work thru Aug and Sept as normal, In some areas, they may close the doors for a week in Aug. This is usually to catch up with paper work including the increase regulatory burden.

Tom Young

Law Library is open

nuac

Tom Young wrote: »

Law Library is open

Ok, I stand corrected. It used to close for LV.

Dandelion6

The High Court still sits every Monday in Cloverhill to deal with bail appeals. There will be a few barristers around for that.

ResearchWill

Dandelion6 wrote: »

The High Court still sits every Monday in Cloverhill to deal with bail appeals. There will be a few barristers around for that.

In fact a judge will sit everyday in the four court called the duty judge, usually sits in one of the court in the round hall, have had to do a few leave applications during the vacation at times.

nuac

Glad to hear of those HC services during the Long Vacation.

I recall in the sixties and seventies that the most that would be available would be a fortnightly vacation sitting. Central Office skeleton staff only, and closed after lunch time.

Had an urgent application there in 1995, and at that time the vacation sitting was on Wednesdays only.

With the pressure on lists, I think the Long Vac should be confined to August.

By volume of cases most of the work is done in DCs , and they and solicitors offices are all open for September .

Delancey

As others have pointed out the Long Vacation is a tradition that dates back to when Barristers had estates - is it not a complete anachronism that badly needs overhauling in this day and age ?

drkpower

While there is a duty judge (and Registrar) every day during the vacation (and at weekends during regular term), it is not possible to contact them in an emergency.

Up until recently, the Courts services switchboard would give you the mobile of the duty Registrar at any time (if you were in extremis), who would then contact the duty judge, but that seems no longer to be the case.

The last time I was in that situation, and when i asked what i would have to do if i needed to contact the duty judge in an extreme emergency, the guy in the courts service said 'sure, your barrister probably knows a judge.......'.

Its laughable really. Perhaps, things have reverted to the old system but i dont think so.

ResearchWill

drkpower wrote: »

While there is a duty judge (and Registrar) every day during the vacation (and at weekends during regular term), it is not possible to contact them in an emergency.

Up until recently, the Courts services switchboard would give you the mobile of the duty Registrar at any time (if you were in extremis), who would then contact the duty judge, but that seems no longer to be the case.

The last time I was in that situation, and when i asked what i would have to do if i needed to contact the duty judge in an extreme emergency, the guy in the courts service said 'sure, your barrister probably knows a judge.......'.

Its laughable really. Perhaps, things have reverted to the old system but i dont think so.

Last long vacation I had to make a couple of leave applications, system was perfect, rang switchboard was put through to duty registrars voicemail left message, was rung back told which court and asked to email statement to ground JR, which I did. Arrived in court moved application all went smoothly. As far as I am aware during the LV a judge goes in each morning, does not have to be called in as they sit every day.

drkpower

ResearchWill wrote: »

Last long vacation I had to make a couple of leave applications, system was perfect, rang switchboard was put through to duty registrars voicemail left message, was rung back told which court and asked to email statement to ground JR, which I did. Arrived in court moved application all went smoothly. As far as I am aware during the LV a judge goes in each morning, does not have to be called in as they sit every day.

Sure, but what I am talking about are genuine emergencies, where the application might need to be made in minutes/hours/overnight.

But in any case, the 'old' system whereby there was a named duty Reg 'on call' whose mobile you could get in case of emergencies was in place at the time of the last vacation - i think it was around about March/April 2012 when (I found out that) the system changed.

Victor

Delancey wrote: »

As others have pointed out the Long Vacation is a tradition that dates back to when Barristers had estates - is it not a complete anachronism that badly needs overhauling in this day and age ?

Some sort of structured holidays can make sense, provided cover is given - it means that everyone is then available during term. That said, two months is perhaps a bit much, although what if several judges / barristers / solicitors have time shares on the same place.

That said, where physical resources are limited, e.g. court rooms, it would make sense to not have them idle for several months per year.

Dandelion6

ResearchWill wrote: »

Last long vacation I had to make a couple of leave applications, system was perfect, rang switchboard was put through to duty registrars voicemail left message, was rung back told which court ...

If the system was "perfect" the switchboard operator would have been told which court, instead of you having to leave a message and wait to be phoned back. But they refuse to give this information to the switchboard operator. Can't understand why. Or why they don't just post it on the Legal Diary page on courts.ie. What's the big secret

ResearchWill

Dandelion6 wrote: »

If the system was "perfect" the switchboard operator would have been told which court, instead of you having to leave a message and wait to be phoned back. But they refuse to give this information to the switchboard operator. Can't understand why. Or why they don't just post it on the Legal Diary page on courts.ie. What's the big secret

Because at 9 in the morning the switch board operator would not know, also by getting you to ring the registrar he or she has an idea of what cases are coming in. There is no legal diary during the vacation as guess what nothing is listed for hearing. So as a person who has used the system is does work perfectly, because I had been in contact with the registrar I had already email the documents and then the order was ready for perfection that day. There is no big secret, it's just the way the system worked.

drkpower

ResearchWill wrote: »

Because at 9 in the morning the switch board operator would not know, also by getting you to ring the registrar he or she has an idea of what cases are coming in. There is no legal diary during the vacation as guess what nothing is listed for hearing. So as a person who has used the system is does work perfectly, because I had been in contact with the registrar I had already email the documents and then the order was ready for perfection that day. There is no big secret, it's just the way the system worked.

I suppose the perfect system would involve practitioners knowing, in advance, what court, what registrar and what judge are on duty for each day.

And more importantly, for emergencies, the mobile phone number of the duty registrar should be available at all times.

ResearchWill

drkpower wrote: »

I suppose the perfect system would involve practitioners knowing, in advance, what court, what registrar and what judge are on duty for each day.

And more importantly, for emergencies, the mobile phone number of the duty registrar should be available at all times.

While you may think that, I think the system worked "perfectly" for me. It's my opinion, having used it I found it worked.

drkpower

ResearchWill wrote: »

While you may think that, I think the system worked "perfectly" for me. It's my opinion, having used it I found it worked.

Sure, it worked for you.

But im sure you also appreciate that a system working perfectly for you does not equate to a perfect system.

ResearchWill

drkpower wrote: »

Sure, it worked for you.

But im sure you also appreciate that a system working perfectly for you does not equate to a perfect system.

No I don't, I used system, it worked, I got my job done quickly. So as far as I am concerned it worked perfectly. If there was a published list, I believe people may abuse the system, which could mean I don't get to make my important application because some muppet is applying for something than can properly wait till October. And before you ask my application was to stop a deportation, not easy to fix a month after the event happened. (The person was later allowed to remain as decision was incorrect)

drkpower

ResearchWill wrote: »

No I don't, I used system, it worked, I got my job done quickly. So as far as I am concerned it worked perfectly.

Are you really saying that because the system worked for you, that means that the system is perfect?!

ResearchWill wrote: »

If there was a published list, I believe people may abuse the system, which could mean I don't get to make my important application because some muppet is applying for something than can properly wait till October.

Even if there was a published list, that does not mean that the duty Reg or the Judge needs to hear everything that turns up. But in any case, im not that bothered whether a list is published or not - what i care about is the ease of access to the judge/registrar.

What is your view of a situation where, when someone who needs truly immediate access to a judge, there is no reliable mechanism of contacting that judge (or his Registrar) urgently? Is that a perfect system?

ResearchWill

drkpower wrote: »

Are you really saying that because the system worked for you, that means that the system is perfect?!


Even if there was a published list, that does not mean that the duty Reg or the Judge needs to hear everything that turns up. But in any case, im not that bothered whether a list is published or not - what i care about is the ease of access to the judge/registrar.

What is your view of a situation where, when someone who needs truly immediate access to a judge, there is no reliable mechanism of contacting that judge (or his Registrar) urgently? Is that a perfect system?

Any time I needed to get a judge and regustrar I have managed to do so in very short order. Including a judge offering to come in to the four courts if needed at 9pm.

Can you point at any example where justice has been denied in the current system. I know of no reported situation where that has happened. So I can only surmise that as when ever I needed to use the system it has worked, and I know of no situation where an injustice has been done.

Also considering the Four Courts switch board is manned, I do not see why anyone need the registrars number.

drkpower

ResearchWill wrote: »

Any time I needed to get a judge and regustrar I have managed to do so in very short order. Including a judge offering to come in to the four courts if needed at 9pm.

Can you point at any example where justice has been denied in the current system. I know of no reported situation where that has happened. So I can only surmise that as when ever I needed to use the system it has worked, and I know of no situation where an injustice has been done.

Thankfully, Ive never experienced justice being denied in such a situation; however the last time that I had a situation where I may have required a judge 'out of hours' (if a particular medical issue arose), I was told that there was no number available to contact the Registrar (or Judge). Thankfully, the medical issue didnt arise and everything was hunky dory, but that 'justice was not denied' was simply a matter of luck.

Do you believe that that represents a perfect system?

ResearchWill

drkpower wrote: »

Thankfully, Ive never experienced justice being denied in such a situation; however the last time that I had a situation where I may have required a judge 'out of hours' (if a particular medical issue arose), I was told that there was no number available to contact the Registrar (or Judge). Thankfully, the medical issue didnt arise and everything was hunky dory, but that 'justice was not denied' was simply a matter of luck.

Do you believe that that represents a perfect system?

No, that is not a perfect system, but that is not the reaction anytime I needed a registrar and judge, it often involved either a call back or the leaving of a voice mail, but I did within a short time speak to the right person. I can not comment on your situation as I was not part of it but I have never had a refusal by four courts security to contact the right person on my behalf.

drkpower

ResearchWill wrote: »

No, that is not a perfect system, but that is not the reaction anytime I needed a registrar and judge, it often involved either a call back or the leaving of a voice mail, but I did within a short time speak to the right person. I can not comment on your situation as I was not part of it but I have never had a refusal by four courts security to contact the right person on my behalf.

And that was the sum total of my point.

I dont doubt that it works most of the time; it does. But a system that does not work in some situations - particularly in critical situations - is not a perfect one.

Dandelion6

ResearchWill wrote: »

Because at 9 in the morning the switch board operator would not know

It was well past 9 in the morning when I phoned. And the switchboard operator told me bluntly that a decision had been made not to give them this information.

There is no legal diary during the vacation as guess what nothing is listed for hearing.

But there is still a "Legal Diary" page on courts.ie, and no good reason why it cannot identify which court the duty judge is sitting in.

ResearchWill

Dandelion6 wrote: »

It was well past 9 in the morning when I phoned. And the switchboard operator told me bluntly that a decision had been made not to give them this information.



But there is still a "Legal Diary" page on courts.ie, and no good reason why it cannot identify which court the duty judge is sitting in.

Did the operator offer to put you through to the duty registrars phone, which is what he did when I rang.

Last summer any day I went up the judge sat in one of the courts in the round hall, was not difficult to track down to be honest, I'm not sure why you could not get through and get the information you required. When I was put through to voice mail I left a message about the type of application, got call back giving me all the required information. If you had an issue with the quality of service then a complaint should have been made.

Victor

ResearchWill wrote: »

Can you point at any example where justice has been denied in the current system.

A thousand time a day, but perhaps that is a discussion for another thread.

Dandelion6

ResearchWill wrote: »

Did the operator offer to put you through to the duty registrars phone, which is what he did when I rang.

Yes he did but the duty registrar wasn't on duty at the time. I got the information eventually but I see no reason why it couldn't have been made much easier.

jasonpat

Tom Young wrote: »

August and September. It's to tend to our farms and estates during summer season .... Don't you know.

are these the final dates.

Tom Young

Final dates? ...

gozunda

Many thanks for the many useful replies. I do notice however that there appears to be minority stream of negative experiences in relation to the operation of the Long Vacation as it is known.

I understand its historical origin and can appreciate that a set holiday makes sense where the vagaries of the legal system require the presence of somemany professionals at the same time. Whilst some have argued that it hasn'tworked for them, that per se does not make it a redundant or an anachronism in our present system. If individuals feel that a specific system isn't working for then it is up them to make relevant representations and not just complain ofthe system in absentia. There are plenty of examples of the mechanisms of state which are based on previous practice and custom that work adequately today. For example primary school children were originally excused the summer months schooling on the basis they were required to help with the summer harvest. Just because we don’t have indigenous primary aged children digging potatoes and helping gather hay, doesn't necessarily mean that we should get rid of the said vacation either....

nuac

I have made representations thru my Bar Association that all courts should work normally during Sept i.e. Long Vacation to be confined to August.

the vacation arrangments as outlined seem adequate to me - vast improvement on what used to happen.